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Inverse Icarus posted:So for say an Arcane Archer, that required BAB +6, the earliest you could take it is 8th? Yeah. You could houserule it to points-before-class, but the way PrCs have always been done in computer D&D products is that you choose your class to level in before you distribute your skill points, so you'll have to meet the requirements before you gain the level.
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Jul 10, 2012 19:31
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[quote="Inverse Icarus" post=""40545916"] I don't want to railroad him like that, or even suggest that pounce is as amazing as it is. I betcha Dragon Disciple would be up his alley, though. [/quote] Why not? You're basically inducting a new player, his one previous character notwithstanding, into a horribly broken and confusing system. And you're setting him up to fail so you can... what, teach him a lesson about why he shouldn't play this game? Give the poor guy some help and let him know what he's getting into, don't just set it up so you can  at him after he fails.
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Jul 10, 2012 19:31
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The White Dragon posted:Yeah. You could houserule it to points-before-class, but the way PrCs have always been done in computer D&D products is that you choose your class to level in before you distribute your skill points, so you'll have to meet the requirements before you gain the level.
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Jul 10, 2012 19:34
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veekie posted:Also because recursive qualification is always a thorny case, especially with class dependent prereqs. E.g. qualifying for a class that requires rage(or a feat), which grants rage if you don't already have it. That's always been the weird gray area for DD with me, honestly. It's like, so can I roll a Wizard, take Mage Armor as a Preferred Spell and qualify because I can cast it spontaneously? I guess another good way to look at it is, if a class requires third-level casting, you probably wouldn't let them class into it until they had third-level spells even if the class gave them caster progression at first level.
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Jul 10, 2012 20:03
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All this talk of summoning monsters made me realize I don't actually know precisely how it works - it says that it attacks immediately on your turn, but for subsequent turns, do you basically just move it/them around simultaneously with your own wizard? Do each of your creatures get a full move action and attack action etc along with you on your turn?
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Jul 10, 2012 20:09
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internetstuff posted:All this talk of summoning monsters made me realize I don't actually know precisely how it works - it says that it attacks immediately on your turn, but for subsequent turns, do you basically just move it/them around simultaneously with your own wizard? Do each of your creatures get a full move action and attack action etc along with you on your turn? Yes. That's the main reason summoning is so powerful, it shatters the action economy of the game.
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Jul 10, 2012 20:16
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RPZip posted:Why not? I offer all the help he wants, and have even given him some of the ideas mentioned in this thread. However, I'm not telling him how fantastic pounce is in the super-optimized world where fighter-types often take a back seat, because they won't in this group. They're all so poorly designed that the Wizard isn't trivializing every encounter and the Cleric spends several rounds every combat healing people. This is by far not the best way to play, but they're playing and having fun. I'm all for giving him all the information he wants, and if he asks me my opinion or what I would do I'd probably guide him to a Barb 4 / Bard 1. However, I know that personally i'd be put off it I sat down to play a game that I didn't know anything about and someone told me "This is how you play a barbarian, this is what you choose." I'm not "setting him up to fail", and I always try to scale the encounters to factor in the newbishness of the party. If he wants to play a Monk / Bard and have fun with it, power to him.
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Jul 10, 2012 20:18
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Inverse Icarus posted:I'm not "setting him up to fail", and I always try to scale the encounters to factor in the newbishness of the party. If he wants to play a Monk / Bard and have fun with it, power to him. Amen to that, I was actually post about this last night but then I was like "ehh." It's not the players' jobs to make Super Optimized Characters, but the DM's job to engineer encounters and adventures so their Bardmonks and like Barbarian-cleric-rogue-cavalier-paladin-wizards still enjoy themselves. A failing of a lot DMs I've seen have is that they don't think like this, but rather that it's the responsibility of the players to be able to surmount any mix-maxed encounters built purely to gently caress the players as hard as possible in the name of "strategic challenge" that the DM cooks up. But this is more for the GM thread. I applaud you, though, for having this good outlook on DMing.
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Jul 10, 2012 20:35
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Meepo posted:Yes. That's the main reason summoning is so powerful, it shatters the action economy of the game. More and less than that at the same time. While it does provide extra actions, note that summoned monsters are generally weak enough that if you were to fight them as an encounter you probably wouldn't be awarded XP. The true magic of it is just how many possible options are packaged into one spell. Pinch hitter, sure, spell on a stick, if you're lucky, entirely disposable meatwall, all the time, the list goes on. If anything its better on low powered games, where longer durations of fights make those extra actions count for a lot more.
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Jul 10, 2012 21:06
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veekie posted:More and less than that at the same time. While it does provide extra actions, note that summoned monsters are generally weak enough that if you were to fight them as an encounter you probably wouldn't be awarded XP. The true magic of it is just how many possible options are packaged into one spell. Any action an enemy takes fighting your 1d3 Earth Elementals is an action they didn't take against the party. No one cares if the summoned demon got knocked to negative HPs and disappears back to his home plane. But the real power is in the options, like you mentioned. The abilities the summoned monsters can have. Right off the bat, forget any teleport or summon spell the monsters may have, and any sort of "create spawn" abilities. You don't get those when you summon them, they're expressly removed from anything you summon. Everything else is fair game though. Some ones that can be really valuable in the right situation - Wolves (from the level 2 list) get a free trip attempt when they bite - Lantern Archons (from the 3rd level list) can cast Aid at will, and they get to make 2 ranged touch attacks that BYPASS ALL DAMAGE REDUCTION (only at +3 for 1d6 damage, but still). Summon a few of them and they'll plink at a golem like it ain't no thing. They also have an Aura of Menace will a low DC (13), but it's still there. - Elementals all have cool stuff that can be useful whatever terrain you're in, but Earth Elementals are my favorite. They can go underground and just slide to the enemy without being hit, and the slam the poo poo out of them. Tremorsense means they can pinpoint invisible/hiding enemies if they're on the floor, which is useful when you need to land your Glitterdust or Faerie Fire. - Baubaus (5th level) have See Invisibility all the time, and can cast Dispel Magic at will. Their CL is only a 7, but it's still a chance to dispel something. They also damage things hitting them in melee with their acid-skin, which is useful if you corner an enemy by summoning several of them. And you get to choose what comes out when you cast the spell, not when you slot it (if you're a Wizard). It's a ton of versatility.
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Jul 10, 2012 21:41
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The White Dragon posted:But this is more for the GM thread. I didn't know there was a DM thread, and a lot of the questions I've had probably belonged there. I'll check it out, thanks.
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Jul 10, 2012 21:42
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quote:Lantern Archons (from the 3rd level list) can cast Aid at will, and they get to make 2 ranged touch attacks that BYPASS ALL DAMAGE REDUCTION (only at +3 for 1d6 damage, but still). Summon a few of them and they'll plink at a golem like it ain't no thing. They also have an Aura of Menace will a low DC (13), but it's still there. Plus, they have a fly speed of 60', which means they can cover quite a bit of distance. I'm thinking of rolling a Master Summoner (who gets minute/level summons), summoning a horde of these things, and killing things a mile away with my angel death lasers from the comfort of a lawn chair.
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Jul 10, 2012 22:51
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If you summon a lot of LAntern Archons (8? 10? I forget) they can fuse into a mega-archon. I don't even know what that does because it's never, ever happened before, but I hope it's as badass as I think it would be.
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Jul 10, 2012 23:38
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Inverse Icarus posted:If you summon a lot of LAntern Archons (8? 10? I forget) they can fuse into a mega-archon. I don't even know what that does because it's never, ever happened before, but I hope it's as badass as I think it would be.
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Jul 10, 2012 23:54
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Gestalt posted:Nine lantern archons can fuse together as a full-round action, becoming a single Large entity that is more powerful than the individual archons that make up its parts. Looking like a whirlwind of dancing firefly lights, the gestalt has all the powers and abilities of a Large air elemental plus the following: archon, good, and lawful subtypes; archon traits (aura of menace DC 16); 2 light rays (2d6); DR 5/evil and magic. The archons can remain in this form for 2d4 rounds. When the gestalt separates back into individual lantern archons, its remaining hit points are divided evenly among them; if it had less than 9 hit points, some of the component archons die when the gestalt ends. While neat, I can think of much better uses for two castings(or more) of Summon Monster V... For example, having 9 lantern archons make 18 light ray attacks for 1d6 each. Tactical Bonnet fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Jul 11, 2012 |
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Jul 11, 2012 02:37
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Tactical Bonnet posted:While neat, I can think of much better uses for two castings(or more) of Summon Monster V... For example, having 9 lantern archons make 18 light ray attacks for 1d6 each. That all bypass DR. Now make 9 will saves against aura of menace. Who cares if the DC is low, with that many saves you may roll a one anyway.
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Jul 11, 2012 03:38
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Inverse Icarus posted:If you summon a lot of LAntern Archons (8? 10? I forget) they can fuse into a mega-archon. I don't even know what that does because it's never, ever happened before, but I hope it's as badass as I think it would be. 9 of them combined becomes effectively a Large Air Elemental with 2 lasers. Not that hot given that it takes a full round action and only lasts 2d4 rounds.
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Jul 11, 2012 08:02
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veekie posted:9 of them combined becomes effectively a Large Air Elemental with 2 lasers. Not that hot given that it takes a full round action and only lasts 2d4 rounds. Well that's depressing.
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Jul 11, 2012 20:48
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Inverse Icarus posted:Well that's depressing. Well, it has a few neat implications for encounters, though it isn't really worth summoning 9 Lantern Archons in most cases. For one, when it breaks apart they share HP evenly, so it can negate any concentrated fire that took place before the gestalt. For another, it ups the DC of their Archon Aura. This isn't as good as forcing 9 separate checks, but it has a bit more bite to start off with. As a Large Air Elemental it also gives the Archons access to Whirlwind, which can be pretty rough on a PC with a low reflex save. And the idea of a giant whirling mass of Lantern Archon spinning around and shooting lasers everywhere is pretty dope all by itself.
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Jul 11, 2012 21:08
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I have some ideas for an rear end in a top hat character in Pathfinder Society, but really I stumbled across the idea of an ultra-femenist ranger with favored enemy: constructs. Out to destroy the construct that is gender. 
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Jul 12, 2012 01:20
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We just finished a book in one of the D&D games I'm a PC in, and are moving on to the final one. The DM has told us this is pretty much the last time we can buy anything. I am a level 14 Monk (I know, I know...), and I have 51,885gp. We started this game back in 3.5 (I know, I know...) and switched from 3.5 to the alpha PF rules, and then from alpha to beta, and then beta to final, or whatever. It's been so long I forget, this group is the one with the gigantic hiatuses and the one guy who makes everything take three times as long as it should. Because of all the rule changes, we ended up just deciding that my Monk can use Gauntlets to deal unarmed damage. Kind of like Brass Knuckles from the APG, but whatever. We did this a long, long time ago. As a result, I have gotten away with some cheese, in that I have a +1 Holy Gauntlet, a +1 Ghost Touch Gauntlet, and a +0 Shocking Amulet of Mighty Fists. The Holy Gauntlet is part of my character's story and I'd never take it off, and the Ghost Touch has proven useful in the past. I guess I could change up the amulet for something better. The gear I currently have off the top of my head is... +1 Holy Gauntlet (Character, won't change) +1 Ghost Touch Gauntlet +0 Shocking Amulet of Mighty Fists Cloak of Resistance +2 (Character, won't change) Headband of Vast Intelligence +2 (useless, but I didn't have a headband and we found it) Monk's Robe (Character, won't change) Bracers of Armor +4 Ring of Protection +2 Belt of Giant's Strength +2 Ring of Jumping (useless, but we found it) Winged Boots (Character, won't change) There are still some slots left open, and I'm willing to replace things that aren't core to my character. The DM wrote this whole side quest in where I found relics of an ancient hero (Gauntlet, Cloak, Robe, Boots) and basically I'm never taking those off. My role in the party has been tankish, I basically run in at an enemy and smack it around, taking a total defense sometimes if I'm having a lot of trouble hitting it and just need to defend. My flurry can do significant damage with the cheese we've allowed, 2d6+2 + 2d6 (if target is evil) + 1d6 electric for a total of 5d6+2 per hit. Most things we fight are evil, so it works out. Casters are my speciality, with SR 24 and good saves (+13 FORT, +18 REF, +15 WILL, Immune Poison/Disease, +2 against enchantment, +2 against fear, +2 to saves against Greed magic). I get up in their poo poo, try to back them into a wall, and activate Lunge. With Combat Reflexes, if they try to runa way I'll get 2-4 AoOs on them, and I can drop DC 20 Stunning Fists. We've fought an awful lot of Stone Giants and Undead, which has made the stunners pretty useless, but sometimes we'll fight a human/elf caster. I'm not even sure what I should be looking at item-wise this level, I've barely ever played beyond level 10. I thought about getting a Ring of Force Shield, for another +2 AC, but it's recently been discussed that AC is a losing man's battle. I have SR, good saves, and evasion, so I'm pretty happy with my ability to defend against casters. When we fought a Red Dragon, I literally could not hit it on a non-20, and it seemed like it could not miss me. So I'm having trouble with melee-types with high armor. Are there any items that will make me hit more often, other than just getting a +X Amulet of Mighty Fists? Are there any items that would let a non-caster use effects like Blur or Mirror Image? Potions, I guess? Any Wondrous Items you can come up with? Any way for me to negate more damage? Maybe get some scrolls of Stoneskin and have the Sorcerer cast it on me? Potions of Blur and Mirror Image? A headband of Wisdom would raise my AC, and the DC of my stunning fist. Not sure if that's worth it. I'm pretty sure my DM said once that I could flurry with a necklace of fireballs as if they were shuriken. Maybe I should do that, that seems hilarious. I also have a Cohort, an NPC from the campaign. He's a level 12 Ranger, and he's grossly undergeared at this point (getting hand-me-down things like a Ring of Protection +1.) He's got a +1 Shocking Bow, and he's got Pinpoint Targetting or whatever lets him make one shot that ignores armor, natch armor, and shield bonuses, as well as the traditional Rapid Manyshot. He has an abysmal Will save. In the last book, he ran away in fear or froze in place like half the time. I'm thinking I should get him something to deal with that, and maybe a better bow. Can you think of any good Ranger items? or anything that would help him with Will saves against Fear/Charm (I've asked this before.) I think he's in a +1 Chain Shirt, and he might have bracers or gloves or whatever it is these days of DEX +2. I don't have his sheet handy, but he's not decked out at all. He has Favored Enemy Giant +6, Dragon +4, Monstrous Humanoid +2, which has helped the party immensely, but his lack of gear and sub-optimal build (he's an existing NPC and I've only been able to make decisions for him since 6th level or whatever) is really beginning to show.
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Jul 13, 2012 19:50
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Get an Ioun Stone with +2 con, imo since you apparently really like your amulet of might fists because you'll get 14 hitpoints and shore up your weak save. Can you upgrade that artifact cloak thing?
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Jul 13, 2012 21:55
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Might see if you can get a Cloak of Displacement (20% miss chance) in a different slot. I think you have a torso space available (check the SRD). I can't recall any good fear counter items off the top of my head.
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Jul 14, 2012 01:14
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Can I make a Spell Dancer Magus that isn't bad? I'm working a character concept that takes the Dervish Dancer feat and the Spell Dancer archetype fits the concept perfectly, but it seems like I'm giving up a lot for little. I had planned to spend most of my arcane pool on gaining Keen and chopping guys up with lots of criticals, but unfortunately Spell Dancer replaces that feature. Obviously I can get a Keen weapon or take Improved Critical later on, but I could do that normally anyway (and then just use Arcane Pool on other damage stuff). So, I suppose what I'm asking is, what are useful things to spend Arcane Pool on as a Spell Dancer instead of making my scimitar Keen? What other feats or spells might work well with the archetype? I'm not worried about having the perfect character, more looking for "good enough".
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Jul 14, 2012 02:26
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Danhenge posted:Get an Ioun Stone with +2 con, imo since you apparently really like your amulet of might fists because you'll get 14 hitpoints and shore up your weak save. Can you upgrade that artifact cloak thing? I'm not sure how our DM handles "upgrading" items, but I'm pretty sure it's not allowed RAW, right? If you have a +1 Sword you can't just add Fiery to it later? It's doubtful I can upgrade it, unless you have a rule or a James Jacobs quote. I'll talk to him and see what's up. OpenlyEvilJello posted:Might see if you can get a Cloak of Displacement (20% miss chance) in a different slot. I think you have a torso space available (check the SRD). I can't recall any good fear counter items off the top of my head. I really like the Lesser Cloak of Displacement. Maybe I can get that turned into a Chest piece like you said, we'll see. Potions of Blur seem like a cheaper solution though, at the cost of an action at the start of every combat. I'd really love to be all blurry all the time, though.
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Jul 14, 2012 04:06
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Inverse Icarus posted:I'm not sure how our DM handles "upgrading" items, but I'm pretty sure it's not allowed RAW, right? If you have a +1 Sword you can't just add Fiery to it later? Try this. Inverse Icarus posted:I really like the Lesser Cloak of Displacement. Maybe I can get that turned into a Chest piece like you said, we'll see. You could also only fight myopic enemies. (Personally, I'm loath to spend valuable standard actions buffing in combat unless I can get a huge benefit out of the buffing, but y'all's combats probably take more rounds on average than my group's.)
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Jul 14, 2012 04:49
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grah posted:Well, it has a few neat implications for encounters, though it isn't really worth summoning 9 Lantern Archons in most cases. Man now I kind of want to play as this. Not the one who summoned them but the 9 lantern archons forming up lantern voltron.
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Jul 14, 2012 08:01
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Inverse Icarus posted:We just finished a book in one of the D&D games I'm a PC in, and are moving on to the final one. The DM has told us this is pretty much the last time we can buy anything. quote:He has an abysmal Will save. In the last book, he ran away in fear or froze in place like half the time. I'm thinking I should get him something to deal with that, and maybe a better bow.
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Jul 14, 2012 08:43
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veekie posted:A source of Protection from Evil perhaps? My cohort usually hangs with the party cleric, I guess asking her to slot or get some scrolls of Protection/Magic Circle Against Evil would be pretty useful for him. I'm really liking the Lesser Cloak of Displacement. 1 in 5 chance to be missed by all non-magic attacks? Sure. Add another roll for the monster in order to hit me, why not? The last chapter has us storming the capital city of a Thasslonian Runelord, who is known to have enslaved tons of giants. I think I'm going to get my little Ranger buddy a Giantbane bow, replacing his Shock one. Sure, he'll be worse against the non-giants, but he'll be laughably good against them, which is kind of the point of the character. He's basically been consumed by rage and is nothing more than a Giant murderer.
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Jul 14, 2012 23:26
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How does Permanency work? It's a Sor/Wiz spell but it allows a caster to cast Permanent Magic Fang on someone, which isn't a Sor/Wiz spell. Do they have to be multiclassed to do that, or can all Wizards just give a creature a bonus on it's natural attacks?
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Jul 15, 2012 00:32
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Inverse Icarus posted:How does Permanency work? If it isn't specified, you can leave it as DM's call. Use Magic Device + Scroll? Maybe. What it sounds like, though, is that the Wiz/Sor can cast it on any existing effect, so your Druid can drop it and the Wizard just follows up.
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Jul 15, 2012 00:50
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A multi-classed wizard/sorcerer (or one who succeeded a UMD check to cast it off a scroll) could do it. Mystic Theurges in particular wouldn't have much trouble doing it
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Jul 15, 2012 00:52
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The White Dragon posted:What it sounds like, though, is that the Wiz/Sor can cast it on any existing effect, so your Druid can drop it and the Wizard just follows up. This is my inclination.
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Jul 15, 2012 01:26
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I'm starting a new campaign tomorrow (DM hasn't selected one yet) and I'm wondering what kind of character I should make. I've only ever played an Elf Ranger (no my name wasn't Legolas, it was Lagoles!) and a Human Druid. I'm pretty inexperienced and have to refer to a book every 3 minutes. What are some suggestions for interesting classes to play? I have 2 others in my party. I was leaning towards a Paladin but I'm open to suggestions. My party members will consist of a caster most likely and either an alch or rogue. Oh, and I'm limited to Ultimate Combat/Magic and advanced pathfinder/core rules Edit: I decided on Barb because I am gay Brass fucked around with this message at 09:44 on Jul 15, 2012 |
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Jul 15, 2012 05:38
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Hey now, barbs are wicked fun as far as melee characters go. I'm playing one right now!
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Jul 15, 2012 17:28
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Lots of neat stuff in barb to keep you interested. Since you're new and need to look up stuff all the time, I'd recommend keeping a second set of precalculated attacks (or even an entire second character sheet) for when you're raging, since that changes a lot of numbers. A lot of people dismiss the power cards idea from 4e, but a quick reference like that for your rage powers might come in handy as well.
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Jul 15, 2012 19:08
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One of the things I like best about barbarians is that many of their defensive rage powers can be summed up, as someone else in this thread put it, "NO YOU CAN'T, BECAUSE I'M ANGRY" 
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Jul 15, 2012 20:07
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Take a level of Bard, get Lingering Song, become a Bardbarian who screeches like raspy death metal lyrics that sounds like he's vomiting instead of singing while he rages.
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Jul 15, 2012 21:17
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The White Dragon posted:Take a level of Bard, get Lingering Song, become a Bardbarian who screeches like raspy death metal lyrics that sounds like he's vomiting instead of singing while he rages. The guy in my game that was thinking of doing this decided on Sorc 4 / Dragon Disciple 1. He gets around the unarmed strike stuf he wanted to do by having dragon claws.
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Jul 15, 2012 23:50
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Could I please hear from someone what the process is to determine hit points at a level up? My group is new and the core rulebook isn't clear on it to us. What are the steps for us?
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Jul 16, 2012 00:12
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