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An Enormous Boner posted:You don't even have the faintest hint of a conception of what you're talking about. Layers? What the hell is a layer? I'm not talking about musical terminology so much as I'm talking about basically different instruments doing different things, and the brain's capacity for processing these parts moving in different directions all at once before it goes "gently caress it." The fact that you aren't focusing on the music while playing the game doesn't help.
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Jul 17, 2012 01:24
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The White Dragon posted:I'm not talking about musical terminology so much as I'm talking about basically different instruments doing different things, and the brain's capacity for processing these parts moving in different directions all at once before it goes "gently caress it." The fact that you aren't focusing on the music while playing the game doesn't help. I can understand not liking the music, but this is nonsense. I have no problem whatsoever following Sakimoto's compositions, including FFXII. And my only exposure to the music of FFXII is this thread. Yet even after clicking two links, I could already hear some of the staples of Sakimoto's style. "Esper" reminded me quite a bit of "Debris," for instance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cue-OP0iE7Q If you don't like it, just say so. The music isn't moving in all different directions at once. From the links given, large portions consist of Sakimoto's short melodic ideas and lots of fluff, which is sort of his signature. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Sl1gcmpmjc Really, this discussion has got me wanting to play FFXII. It seems like something I'd like.
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Jul 17, 2012 01:36
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It's among my upper quartile of FF games, for quite a few reasons. Just be aware that the story isn't 100% centered on You and Your Band Of Misfits, and be aware that 100%-ing the game is probably not recommended. yes I got Order of Ambrosia the first time I played no I probably will not ever repeat that
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Jul 17, 2012 01:53
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Bruceski posted:Even though Terra was who you start as and has some of the more dramatic stuff what with being half-esper, I always felt that FFVI didn't really have a "main" character. It had primary and secondary characters for a few different storylines/relationships. Terra (Rydia to a lesser extent for 3) is kind of pushed as 6's "put someone on the box"-tagonist cause she's probably the most relevant to the gimmick of that game (ESPERZ) and her theme is iconic to the series, but also because I think someone noticed the protag lineup hit 12 without a single undisputed female lead. Hell, if you don't count CoD, there's only been one villianess. Anyway, people have made comments that the melodrama we have now in games wasn't too heavy in older games simply because of tech limitations, which was true, but there was also a sense that it was kind of inappropriate to pace in a game. But now we live in a time where 10+ minute cutscenes are accepted ("i.e., if we do this well enough it'll be like watching a movie and people like movies right?") and as people move to the goalposts designers take for granted there's stuff they assume we expect, even if we don't want it. keet fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Jul 17, 2012 |
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Jul 17, 2012 01:55
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The White Dragon posted:I'm not talking about musical terminology so much as I'm talking about basically different instruments doing different things, and the brain's capacity for processing these parts moving in different directions all at once before it goes "gently caress it." The fact that you aren't focusing on the music while playing the game doesn't help. You apparently don't understand how to listen to music. Mostly all of what's going on is very clearly and simply contributing decoration to easy-to-follow and traditional, familiar chord progressions. If you find any of that music at all challenging to listen to then I simply don't know what to say.
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Jul 17, 2012 01:55
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I really, really enjoyed FF12's music, but I would have greatly appreciated if it was a little dynamic. Not having a separate battle screen meant that you could be listening to the same song on loop multiple times in some of the larger areas. Even the best song is going to get grating when it's going full-tilt for 20 minutes straight. The oil painted look of the characters meshed well with abilities of the aging PS2. It gave a unique feel to the game, and I actually prefer that look to the hyper-real anime thing FF13 has going on. Some of the environments were a little blurry, but they really nailed the sense of scale. Running around the expansive cities and plains was a really immersive experience, and teleporters were frequent enough that things don't get too tedious. I think FF12 is elevated in my mind a little because even though it definitely had flaws, it felt like a huge step in the right direction after some of the problems and growing pains FF10 had. Unfortunately FF13 happened, which had all the problems of FF10 and more.
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Jul 17, 2012 02:00
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FFXII is my next one after I beat FFV. I figure I'm so close to beating every numbered game, I might as well. I have III, V, XII and XIII left. Beating III and XIII are gonna be a bear. I haven't beaten Tactics or X-2 either, but they're also on the to-do list. I'm not counting all the various spinoffs like Tactics Advance 2, Crystal Chronicles or what have you, because then it's gonna get really ridiculous. For as timesinky as they are, there's way too many FF games. It's especially insane if you count XI and XIV, but I've already beaten FFXI (Original > Zilart > CoP is its main story arc and the rest is sidequest, and when you beat Promathia you get end credits so I consider that done), although it's considerably less insane now and actually doable within a couple months, and FFXIV doesn't exactly have and ending yet. penguinmambo posted:Terra (Rydia to a lesser extent for 3) is kind of pushed as 6's "put someone on the box"-tagonist cause she's probably the most relevant to the gimmick of that game (ESPERZ) and her theme is iconic to the series, but also because I think someone noticed the protag lineup hit 12 without a single undisputed female lead. Hell, if you don't count CoD, there's only been one villianess. Yeah, Terra is supposed to be the protagonist of FFVI, but she's pretty overshadowed by Locke, Edgar, Sabin, Setzer, etc. You could make an argument that Prishe is the protagonist of XI and Ashe is the protagonist to XII, although Vaan is the guy on the box. GET IN THE ROBOT fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Jul 17, 2012 |
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Jul 17, 2012 02:01
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microwave casserole posted:I really, really enjoyed FF12's music, but I would have greatly appreciated if it was a little dynamic. Not having a separate battle screen meant that you could be listening to the same song on loop multiple times in some of the larger areas. Even the best song is going to get grating when it's going full-tilt for 20 minutes straight. I remember Sakimoto saying in an interview he tried to make the field map songs balanced in both up-tempo sections and calmer sections, so that the song would play continuously but never feel out of place if it were constantly big and booming, or calm and soothing. I don't think dynamic music was really a "big thing" yet for video games, but FFXII would've definitely benefited from one.\ They did do something like that for XIII-2, but you never get to hear the Aggressive Mix songs in their entirety because as soon as you enter an encounter it switches to the standard battle theme. I think the game should've transitioned to the second track when you entered battle, and just switched back to the first after you exited. Vitamean fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Jul 17, 2012 |
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Jul 17, 2012 02:13
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microwave casserole posted:The oil painted look of the characters meshed well with abilities of the aging PS2. This is actually a really great idea. We have the tech to render games that look like animated oil paintings rather than hyperrealistic models or animes, and a company with the resources should totally should make this happen.
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Jul 17, 2012 02:27
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Kyrosiris posted:yes I got Order of Ambrosia the first time I played no I probably will not ever repeat that I admire your patience. I've owned this game for 5 1/2 years, and I still have Zodiark, Shadowseer, Yiazmat, and Omega left to beat. I haven't even started the goddamn Elite Marks yet. 
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Jul 17, 2012 02:43
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MrAristocrates posted:I admire your patience. I've owned this game for 5 1/2 years, and I still have Zodiark, Shadowseer, Yiazmat, and Omega left to beat. I haven't even started the goddamn Elite Marks yet. Yiazmat and Omega Mk. 12 were easy. It was filling out the bestiary that was inducing.
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Jul 17, 2012 02:53
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Gammatron 64 posted:
I always thought Terra was the protagonist in the first half of the game, and Celes in the second half. Apparently Basch was supposed to be the protagonist of XII, but later in the development they decided that Vaan and Penelo would be the lead characters. I don't really understand why because they both get pushed aside once Ashe joins, then the game focuses on her, Basch, and Balthier.
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Jul 17, 2012 03:21
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Just beat XIII-2 again. The ending credits theme is just so loving incredible. Blows my loving mind.
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Jul 17, 2012 03:33
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Mill Village posted:I always thought Terra was the protagonist in the first half of the game, and Celes in the second half. It's because upper management decided they needed to have teenage protagonists, because pretty much every JRPG does. Vaan and Penelo didn't even exist originally, they were very obviously shoehorned in. While Vaan is pretty tolerable, and isn't completely horrible like Squall or Tidus, I kinda wish they left him and Penelo out and just simply made Ashe and Basch the main characters as originally intended, because it would have been a breath of fresh air. The Japanese have an obsession with youth culture, mostly because adult life in Japan is so soul-crushing. (Even childhood kinda sucks what with cram schools and all.) It's almost unthinkable to them to have an older man as a main character. Cecil, Bartz and Cloud are the oldest lead characters in the series, and they're all 20.
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Jul 17, 2012 03:55
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Gammatron 64 posted:It's because upper management decided they needed to have teenage protagonists, because pretty much every JRPG does. Vaan and Penelo didn't even exist originally, they were very obviously shoehorned in. While Vaan is pretty tolerable, and isn't completely horrible like Squall or Tidus, I kinda wish they left him and Penelo out and just simply made Ashe and Basch the main characters as originally intended, because it would have been a breath of fresh air. Lightning is 21. v  v Not a big difference but still.
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Jul 17, 2012 04:17
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Lightning being 21 probably has to do with the whole female Cloud thing.
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Jul 17, 2012 04:23
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penguinmambo posted:Terra (Rydia to a lesser extent for 3) is kind of pushed as 6's "put someone on the box"-tagonist cause she's probably the most relevant to the gimmick of that game (ESPERZ) and her theme is iconic to the series, but also because I think someone noticed the protag lineup hit 12 without a single undisputed female lead. Hell, if you don't count CoD, there's only been one villianess. The US box art had Mog on the cover. 
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Jul 17, 2012 04:43
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Gammatron 64 posted:It's because upper management decided they needed to have teenage protagonists, because pretty much every JRPG does. Vaan and Penelo didn't even exist originally, they were very obviously shoehorned in. While Vaan is pretty tolerable, and isn't completely horrible like Squall or Tidus, I kinda wish they left him and Penelo out and just simply made Ashe and Basch the main characters as originally intended, because it would have been a breath of fresh air. drat, I'm always otherwise occupied with the thread gets into a big FF12 debate. But regarding Vaan, he's slapped on as faceman of the game, but he's clearly still not the "main character"- that's easily Ashe. The entire game revolves around Ashe, her objectives, and her motivations and uncertainties. All the other characters follow her around and are very much secondary (hell, I'd say Basch is third in importance behind Balthier, despite supposedly being the original focus). Vaan is just a perspective character whose job it is to have the world explained to him. I know a lot of people despise him, but the only real reasons I've heard are "he was forced into the game and RUINED EVERYTHING" (with no reason of what, precisely, he's done to ruin things) and "I hate his design." Despite this, he never really bothered me, and I certainly like him a lot more than Tidus or Squall. But the designers clearly make him the butt of jokes with how unimportant he is- the other characters will point out he has no reason to be here; everyone tells him to shut up when he's being a dopey teenager; and other characters frequently just completely ignore him while he flails and chases them asking questions. So Vaan is an interesting "character," for me at least, because they manage to make him seem totally out of place in the game, but still make him kinda likable. He's a little abrasive in the beginning, but quickly matures and just becomes a guy happy to be along for the ride. Edit: Also, regarding the level designs, I think one of the game's biggest mistakes is how the beginning is laid out. The first areas you go to are the Westersand, Estersand, and the Giza Plains (Dry), followed by the Nam-Yensa and Ogir-Yensa sandseas which are the areas in the entire game that look the most alike. The game actually has a lot of very visually interesting and unique locales that are all rear-loaded in the game. What results is a first impression on players that EVERYTHING looks the same and is all shades of brown and yellow, when that's really not the case. Schwartzcough fucked around with this message at 06:46 on Jul 17, 2012 |
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Jul 17, 2012 06:40
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Schwartzcough posted:Edit: Also, regarding the level designs, I think one of the game's biggest mistakes is how the beginning is laid out. The first areas you go to are the Westersand, Estersand, and the Giza Plains (Dry), followed by the Nam-Yensa and Ogir-Yensa sandseas which are the areas in the entire game that look the most alike. The game actually has a lot of very visually interesting and unique locales that are all rear-loaded in the game. What results is a first impression on players that EVERYTHING looks the same and is all shades of brown and yellow, when that's really not the case. Agreed. If the Plains during the Wet had been an early setpiece, I think it would've given a needed break in the sandy tedium of the early game.
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Jul 17, 2012 06:53
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It's a drat shame that the first several areas are desert, plains, sewers, dungeon, underground passage, mines, airship, then two more deserts. By Raithwall, Giza Rains, and Ozmone Plain, the game really diversifies. Edit: The game was really hurt by the decision to have even semi-realistic mapping, even if jungle to snowy mountain still makes no sense. \/Can you elaborate? I can't quite recall that dungeon. Arist fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Jul 17, 2012 |
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Jul 17, 2012 06:57
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What was that dungeon with the invisible doors? That place was incredible in terms of visuals. Giruvegan was beautiful as well.
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Jul 17, 2012 06:58
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gently caress it, not dealing with Dragon Gods I'm underleveled to fight fairly. Vanish/Doom up in this piece.
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Jul 17, 2012 07:02
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Himuro posted:What was that dungeon with the invisible doors? That place was incredible in terms of visuals. Giruvegan was beautiful as well. What do you mean by "invisible doors"? I think the Pharos lighthouse and subterra had a number of illusionary walls.
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Jul 17, 2012 07:05
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Schwartzcough posted:What do you mean by "invisible doors"? I think the Pharos lighthouse and subterra had a number of illusionary walls. The Necrohol of Nabudis had a few as well.
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Jul 17, 2012 07:06
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Schwartzcough posted:What do you mean by "invisible doors"? I think the Pharos lighthouse and subterra had a number of illusionary walls. I think it's on the way to the Giruvegan. You're in this gray place with a lot of undead, and in order to progress you have to unlock specific doors that are invisible.
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Jul 17, 2012 07:17
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Himuro posted:I think it's on the way to the Giruvegan. You're in this gray place with a lot of undead, and in order to progress you have to unlock specific doors that are invisible. Oh, the Feywood. Yeah, that place was pretty great. Annoying enemies, though.
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Jul 17, 2012 07:18
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ImpAtom posted:I wanted to like FFXII so bad. If it had just had a combat system that wasn't abhorrent I would have loved it and been able to put up with all its other problems. I was so excited for the Zodiac Job System re-release but it didn't actually fix my fundamental problems, just addressed some of the more egregious errors. I thought the combat was pretty well implemented, if a bit easy at times. The gambits were hosed because they made most of the ones you need obtainable towards the end of the game. I wish the combat speed in the vanilla US release was a little faster so that you weren't watching auto-attack so often but other than that it was pretty standard FF fare. What were your specific issues out of curiosity? A friend of mine loathed the game because "I can't control anything, this is stupid!" and I've never really understood that beef with FFXII. If people want to obnoxiously control every single attack like the old games then they can simply turn off gambits and have at it. It's almost like people were offended at the idea of the gambit system more than anything else.
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Jul 17, 2012 14:37
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The Gambit system lets you control literally everything, so I've never understood that argument.
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Jul 17, 2012 14:47
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The Gunslinger posted:I thought the combat was pretty well implemented, if a bit easy at times. The gambits were hosed because they made most of the ones you need obtainable towards the end of the game. I wish the combat speed in the vanilla US release was a little faster so that you weren't watching auto-attack so often but other than that it was pretty standard FF fare. What were your specific issues out of curiosity? I hated the Gambit System. It isn't that I couldn't control anything it is that I didn't need to because I controlled everything. I automated almost everything and I never could figure out why I should be playing a game that clearly didn't need me there. I could turn off the Gambits but the user interface without them was an atrocity. It was clearly designed for only minimal manual input and trying to play it without gambits was awful. So I had a choice between setting the game up so that I was watching slow easy combat that I had no meaningful interaction with or watching slow easy combat where I wrestled with awkward menu systems that were not designed for what I was trying to make them do. The problem I have is that FFXII is too simple to automate in that manner. Unlike something like Dragon Age: Origins (which basically has the Gambit system), there's nothing really meaningful in the way of friendly fire and positioning or terrain or other things where automating the basic combat actions allows the player to focus on more complex matters. (And DA:O isn't really that complex.) There's a scant handful of bosses who kind of have this but even they're generally easy enough to automate. I'm not arguing that other FF games had deep combat, just that FF's simple and shallow combat is a poor choice for automation unless you add another layer to focus on. All automation did for me in FFXII was lead to me watching fights play out without me. If I'm going to remove the need to pick attack or cast buffs or whatever then I should be focusing on something else, not putting the controller down and waiting for the fight to end. Edit: Also, keep in mind that I never played FFXI so this was the first FF for me since FFX, and while FFX had problems it also had a combat system that was easy-but-interactive in a fun way. I even played through Lord of the Rings: The Third Age just because it had a combat system similar to FFX's, so going from that to FFXII was just depressing. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Jul 17, 2012 |
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Jul 17, 2012 14:47
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Final Fantasy 25th Anniversary, so I'm playing FF1. Origins version. A fighter named Tank, a black mage named Spank, and two corpses. Let's do this.
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Jul 17, 2012 15:03
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Mill Village posted:The Gambit system lets you control literally everything, so I've never understood that argument. B-b-b-but the GAME PLAYS ITSELF! This is totally different from mashing X until the random encounter is over! 
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Jul 17, 2012 15:19
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Fister Roboto posted:B-b-b-but the GAME PLAYS ITSELF! This is totally different from mashing X until the random encounter is over! It is, actually. It crosses the threshold where the simpleness of combat becomes hard to ignore and, more importantly, it applies to what should be harder battles as well. Even if it didn't, the solution to "our combat is so easy that you just mash X to get through it" really shouldn't be "Well, let's take out mashing X." I've said before but the FF combat systems are pretty bad and they tread a pretty thin line even at the best of times. That is why some people can tolerate certain FFs but not others despite them all being equally simplistic. FFXII and FF8 are the ones that leap over that line for me. (well, and FF2, but FF2 is just awful.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Jul 17, 2012 |
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Jul 17, 2012 15:21
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Well personally I don't think it automates enough. I'd like to be able to get really creative and fully program my party's behavior. Throw some nested for loops in there or something.
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Jul 17, 2012 15:23
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So I guess everyone here hates Tidus? I liked him. He started out as whiny or whatever(although, I mean having your entire city destroyed in a flood and being sent to what seems like an alternate world is pretty stressing), I thought he developed into a pretty good character.
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Jul 17, 2012 15:26
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ImpAtom posted:more importantly, it applies to what should be harder battles as well I would respectfully disagree with this, having 100%'d the game. Even disregarding super-bosses like Omega Mk.12 and Yiazmat, there were still some tricky boss fights that did not involve just "mash X/let gambits do their work". And even if you could get away with coasting on gambits, I usually used them more for busy work (buff uptime, HP maintenance, auto-attacks) and controlled more fine-tuned stuff (item use - especially with the Nihopalaoa, special buffs like Decoy/Reverse, thievery and Expose, etc).
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Jul 17, 2012 15:28
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Heroic Yoshimitsu posted:So I guess everyone here hates Tidus? I liked him. He started out as whiny or whatever(although, I mean having your entire city destroyed in a flood and being sent to what seems like an alternate world is pretty stressing), I thought he developed into a pretty good character. His Japanese voice actor is awful and his English voice actor did a pretty bad job despite doing reasonably well elsewhere. It's kind of hard to get past that in the first fully voice acted game. Kyrosiris posted:I would respectfully disagree with this, having 100%'d the game. Even disregarding super-bosses like Omega Mk.12 and Yiazmat, there were still some tricky boss fights that did not involve just "mash X/let gambits do their work". And even if you could get away with coasting on gambits, I usually used them more for busy work (buff uptime, HP maintenance, auto-attacks) and controlled more fine-tuned stuff (item use - especially with the Nihopalaoa, special buffs like Decoy/Reverse, thievery and Expose, etc). I 100%ed the game too (beat it twice thanks to ZJS) and can only remember a very few situations where I bothered to do anything besides let the Gambits do their job. v v It's fine if it didn't happen for you, it did for me. I don't doubt that you had a lot of fun and played it that way. I guess I set my Gambits up differently and that colored my opinion of combat a lot.
ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Jul 17, 2012 |
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Jul 17, 2012 15:28
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ImpAtom posted:I'm not arguing that other FF games had deep combat, just that FF's simple and shallow combat is a poor choice for automation unless you add another layer to focus on. All automation did for me in FFXII was lead to me watching fights play out without me. If I'm going to remove the need to pick attack or cast buffs or whatever then I should be focusing on something else, not putting the controller down and waiting for the fight to end. Yeah, I don't agree with everything you said but you definitely make some fair points there about adding some complexity to make up for the automation. I think FFXII works best when you're underleveled for content as even the automation doesn't make up for the challenge and you're constantly tinkering or overriding things to go with the flow. I did the Gilgamesh fights at a very low level and it was probably one of the enjoyable and challenging boss fight in any FF game I've played. The fighting becomes rote when you have god equipment or are just facing little wolves in the desert though.
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Jul 17, 2012 15:30
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The Gunslinger posted:Yeah, I don't agree with everything you said but you definitely make some fair points there about adding some complexity to make up for the automation. I think FFXII works best when you're underleveled for content as even the automation doesn't make up for the challenge and you're constantly tinkering or overriding things to go with the flow. I did the Gilgamesh fights at a very low level and it was probably one of the enjoyable and challenging boss fight in any FF game I've played. The fighting becomes rote when you have god equipment or are just facing little wolves in the desert though. I think every FF shines better at lower levels honestly. It just runs into the problem of it often being easy to outlevel content by accident if you're doing sidequests or stuff early. I had this problem really bad in FFXIII-2. I did a few sidequests as early as I could so that the boss fights would be more enjoyable and it ended up rendering a lot more of the game a bland cakewalk.
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Jul 17, 2012 15:32
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ImpAtom posted:I 100%ed the game too (beat it twice thanks to ZJS) and can only remember a very few situations where I bothered to do anything besides let the Gambits do their job. v Fair enough.  I fully admit that I did not automate as much as I could had, both because I felt the gambit logic was not as good as it could've been (I would've liked loops or decision statements, as alluded to earlier) and because I preferred to have more "I'll do it, thanks" control over critical things that had to happen (Stealing, Expose-ing, keeping my party leader Decoy/Reversed - especially on Yiazmat, etc).Agree to disagree, I suppose.
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Jul 17, 2012 15:34
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The Gunslinger posted:Yeah, I don't agree with everything you said but you definitely make some fair points there about adding some complexity to make up for the automation. I think FFXII works best when you're underleveled for content as even the automation doesn't make up for the challenge and you're constantly tinkering or overriding things to go with the flow. I did the Gilgamesh fights at a very low level and it was probably one of the enjoyable and challenging boss fight in any FF game I've played. The fighting becomes rote when you have god equipment or are just facing little wolves in the desert though.
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