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nm posted:
I cannot stress this enough. Do all the loving clinics you can. You don't know ANYTHING when you come out of law school.
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Jul 16, 2012 06:30
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This kid's thrilled to be doing the low income taxpayer clinic this semester. Favorite prof with practice experience, the whole deal. Also from my hometown, where I'd like to stay. He actually got this really loving bizarre student review that prompted an e-mail survey. Some people, I guess? It was just out of nowhere.
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Jul 16, 2012 08:13
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Dallan Invictus posted:This is a downside? But it's my experience as well, I'd say about half my classes in 2L and 3L were taught by people with significant practice experience. It seriously owned. It's only a downside for those who care about their education and getting their money's worth. Zarkov obviously cares. We obviously did not.
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Jul 16, 2012 13:06
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On balance (oh god) getting 60% of an education from a prof who has a clue about the real world of their practice area still adds up better than getting 100% from one who doesn't. (that said I had manifestly stopped caring about most of my classes from 3L and quite possibly even earlier.)
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Jul 16, 2012 14:34
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nm posted:I was so lucky that most of my evidence and crim classes were taught by a former federal defender. I never did any clinics during law school, but I will agree that professors who currently practice (or who previously practiced) are a great asset. One of my favorite courses was a trial advocacy course taught by a no-nonsense Federal district court judge who was a litigator for 25+ years prior to sitting on the bench. You left that class every week feeling like a million bucks or feeling like poo poo, depending on how the class went. For some subjects I don't think the professor's background matters that much (especially if it's just something you're learning for the bar and then promptly forgetting about), but for others it's irreplaceable (particularly in the subject(s) you plan to practice in).
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Jul 16, 2012 14:56
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I also attended a grand total of zero clinics. Instead, I continued working at my summer position during the school year. It consisted of actual work in an actual office and it resulted in actual employment. I'm sure some clinics are similar, but clinics are definitely not a requirement, and you are not necessarily a fool if you avoid law school clinics and programmes like the plague. The less interaction you have with academics the better.
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Jul 16, 2012 15:22
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okay it's RAMMER TIME Anybody have any other special essay advice (tau's owned)? Best way to study other than (durr) practicing essays? I've flashcardified all the essay topics. The MBE is gon be fine but these frickin essays
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Jul 16, 2012 16:14
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Feces Starship posted:okay it's RAMMER TIME For what it's worth, I never wrote a single practice essay during my bar prep. In my opinion, if you haven't learned how to write a well-constructed legal argument in 3 years of law school, 2 months of practice essays is not going to help you. The most important thing is to know the law, know all the factors, and to know the buzzwords where relevant ("best interests of the child" for family law, etc). After that, it's just a matter of spotting the issues, regurgitating all the crap you've memorized and making a logical conclusion.
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Jul 16, 2012 16:45
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bozwell posted:The most important thing is to know the law, know all the factors, and to know the buzzwords where relevant ("best interests of the child" for family law, etc). This is by far most important. In Texas at least, essays are an exercise in memorization, not analysis. If you can nail the factors / elements then the conclusions are simple. If you cant remember the factors then make up something reasonable and apply to facts. Use IRAC format, regardless.
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Jul 16, 2012 17:18
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bozwell posted:For what it's worth, I never wrote a single practice essay during my bar prep. In my opinion, if you haven't learned how to write a well-constructed legal argument in 3 years of law school, 2 months of practice essays is not going to help you. The most important thing is to know the law, know all the factors, and to know the buzzwords where relevant ("best interests of the child" for family law, etc). After that, it's just a matter of spotting the issues, regurgitating all the crap you've memorized and making a logical conclusion. Writing out those essays helps you memorise that crap, and also allows you to determine ahead of time how your explanation of the law will be structured and what it will consist of. It will also help you write out the essay at a faster pace with fewer omissions and errors, which is important in a timed exam, especially one where you have to mention certain factors in order to score points.
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Jul 16, 2012 17:44
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Is it worth doing another PT or should I just study the formats/tricks of them?
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Jul 16, 2012 18:24
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Agesilaus posted:Writing out those essays helps you memorise that crap, and also allows you to determine ahead of time how your explanation of the law will be structured and what it will consist of. It will also help you write out the essay at a faster pace with fewer omissions and errors, which is important in a timed exam, especially one where you have to mention certain factors in order to score points. If you find it helps, go for it. Personally, I found that so long as I could remember all the various standards/factors/etc., then I could write the essay no problem. Structuring an argument is something you (should) learn during law school, and I don't buy that BarBri grading a few of my practice essays is really going to teach me how to improve my writing after several years of law school, law review, etc. For me, I found it was better to trust in my ability to form and write-out a well-reasoned argument, and my time was better spent memorizing everything. If writing the practice essays helps you or boosts your confidence, go for it. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from doing any study exercises they feel are valuable. I just personally never saw the need to do them and, looking back on it, I don't regret that decision whatsoever.
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Jul 16, 2012 19:46
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So I've been a law graduate for about a week here in Australia. I guess I better start looking for jobs. Longest law degree ever.
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Jul 16, 2012 23:15
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Solid Lizzie posted:This kid's thrilled to be doing the low income taxpayer clinic this semester. Favorite prof with practice experience, the whole deal. Also from my hometown, where I'd like to stay. LITC is pretty awesome. It's what I'm doing this summer and I'll be continuing into the fall. The IRS hold music gets tiresome though.
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Jul 17, 2012 02:03
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meiram posted:LITC is pretty awesome. It's what I'm doing this summer and I'll be continuing into the fall. The IRS hold music gets tiresome though. It's better than the NYS Department of Taxation and Finance's, though, and at least most of the IRS agents/reps I've dealt with are competent (albeit more of them tend to be assholes vs. the NYS people).
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Jul 17, 2012 02:41
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Alaska has so many jobs that even if their pets are employed: http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/17/us/alaska-cat-mayor/index.html?hpt=hp_c2
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Jul 17, 2012 14:11
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HiddenReplaced posted:Alaska has so many jobs that even if their pets are employed:  Mayor Stubbs of Talkeetna, Alaska, drinks water with catnip from a wine glass. I want to be this successful someday...
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Jul 17, 2012 14:16
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A law student climbs into an attic and is caught taking pictures of a female tenant in the apartment below. NC Bar denies him admission based on C&F. The guy tries to explain what he did: 308 N.C. 317 posted:The remainder of the evidence brought out in the hearing related to matters which were disputed. Elkins maintained that he entered the attic for the purpose of studying and that he took the camera, tripod, brace and bit into the attic as diversions during his studying. He testified that he intended to clean the camera because it had sand in the mechanism from an earlier trip to the beach. He planned to drill holes in the leg of the tripod in order to attach a carrying strap. He testified that he had no intent to secretly peep on the women in the adjoining apartment *321 and that he did not know that the attic covered both apartments. He hid in the attic when he heard someone attempting to enter the apartment because he thought it was either a prowler or one of his roommates who would ridicule him for studying in the attic. He drilled the holes because he was dazed and confused and thought the holes would provide ventilation and an opportunity to see if there was a prowler in the apartment below. He believed that he was drilling through the ceiling over his own apartment.
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Jul 17, 2012 19:31
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How did he explain pictures on his camera of the female tenant? Even if you accept all of the above explanations, that issue is still unexplained.
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Jul 17, 2012 19:46
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I don't see anything in that cite about actual evidence of pictures being taken. GIVE THE MAN HIS LAW LICENSE we all study(ied) in stuffy attics, right?
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Jul 17, 2012 20:19
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He was acquainted with cameras and was specifically observing camera operations, but he did not realize that the camera was actually taking pictures as he pointed it at the female resident and pressed down on the camera button.
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Jul 17, 2012 20:20
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Dogen posted:GIVE THE MAN HIS LAW LICENSE California agreed.
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Jul 17, 2012 22:44
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I tried to save a life today by listing off the various reasons not to sink money into law school, but I was shooed away by his perseverance and acumen and whatever else he has that like, no other law students have. Tried linking him here, didn't take. Oh well. His money. Well, not really, but it'll be his debt.
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Jul 18, 2012 00:05
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Solid Lizzie posted:Oh well. His money. Well, not really, but it'll be his debt. Right, the money will belong to the shyster academics who'll watch him piss away three years of his life, but heaven forbid you call them on it because, hey, they taught him to think like a lawyer!
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Jul 18, 2012 01:13
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Solid Lizzie posted:I tried to save a life today Me: Don't go. Unless you can guarantee top 5% of your class or T14, there are no jobs. Jerk: Of course I'll get top 5%, I've always been at the top of my class. Me: It doesn't reward what you think it does, it's a crapshoot. Jerk: Ooh, sounds like somebody didn't make top 5%  Me: ... Ok, I take it back you'll fit right in.
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Jul 18, 2012 02:01
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woozle wuzzle posted:I recently had a similar experience. Order of the Coif? More like Order of the Uncouth.
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Jul 18, 2012 02:05
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woozle wuzzle posted:I recently had a similar experience.
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Jul 18, 2012 02:39
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HiddenReplaced posted:A law student climbs into an attic and is caught taking pictures of a female tenant in the apartment below. NC Bar denies him admission based on C&F. Interests: Attics Construction of apartment roofs Getting dazed
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Jul 18, 2012 03:18
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Roger_Mudd posted:Interests: -reading -travel
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Jul 18, 2012 03:31
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-sports
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Jul 18, 2012 05:25
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HiddenReplaced posted:A law student climbs into an attic and is caught taking pictures of a female tenant in the apartment below. NC Bar denies him admission based on C&F. This guy is awesome. inventing a lie like this and telling it with a straight face should be a prerequisite to passing C&F
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Jul 18, 2012 14:22
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Civil action filing fee: $350 Express service: $100 Hiring Patton Boggs, Williams & Connolly, and Howry, Breen & Herman to draft an 80 page complaint and TRO full of excruciating detail: $150,000+ Getting your case tossed within hours because you drew Sam Sparks: Priceless.
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Jul 18, 2012 14:54
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Phil Moscowitz posted:Civil action filing fee: $350 He's a great judge, though. Despite having a reputation for being conservative, he issued an injunction against Texas's latest anti-abortion bill, but the 5th Circuit shot it down.
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Jul 18, 2012 15:17
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Phil Moscowitz posted:Civil action filing fee: $350 Sparks story, as told to me by another federal judge: New York lawyer flies in from out of state for an MSJ. Brings reams upon reams of exhibits, roughly a thousand hours of work to get the plaintiff tossed out of court. Sparks has his bailiff go out to CVS to buy the biggest tub of vaseline he can buy and has the bailiff place it on top of the lawyer's pile of paper. Motion withdrawn.
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Jul 18, 2012 15:29
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Agesilaus posted:Right, the money will belong to the shyster academics who'll watch him piss away three years of his life, but heaven forbid you call them on it because, hey, they taught him to think like a lawyer! And, that's basically all of them
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Jul 18, 2012 15:35
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Phil Moscowitz posted:Civil action filing fee: $350 God I wish I was Sam Sparks. It must be loving awesome.
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Jul 18, 2012 15:37
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Solid Lizzie posted:I tried to save a life today by listing off the various reasons not to sink money into law school, but I was shooed away by his perseverance and acumen and whatever else he has that like, no other law students have. Tried linking him here, didn't take. It just depends. I try and discourage people from going to law school unless they ensure they get into a top tier school and are fine with working their asses off once they graduate. With a good scholarship to a good school, you can minimize your debt and maximize your chances of landing a good job, at which point I see nothing wrong with going to law school. The problem is, that's not realistic for most people. I still think it's a very worthwhile profession though, and there are people who can and do make it work. I personally have no regrets about my decision. That said, the market for patent attorneys isn't as bleak as some of the other areas of law, which probably explains my optimism (albeit somewhat reserved) towards the profession.
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Jul 18, 2012 16:56
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Soothing Vapors posted:God I wish I was Sam Sparks. It must be loving awesome. I wish I was his staff attorney, also the new courthouse is shaping up nicely HOW DID I FEDERAL GOVERNMENT????
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Jul 18, 2012 16:58
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CaptainScraps posted:Sparks story, as told to me by another federal judge: This strikes me as very Samuel Kent-ish of him so I'm looking forward to the meltdown
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Jul 18, 2012 17:35
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Adar posted:This strikes me as very Samuel Kent-ish of him so I'm looking forward to the meltdown Oh man, I have some Kent stories too. Like how clerking for Kent was a black mark on your record but people would hire you as local counsel, even fresh out of law school, solely to advocate in front of Kent because he hated loving EVERYONE but his clerks. Who he molested.
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Jul 18, 2012 17:37
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