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Yeah, I've got a nice calf bruise from landing on a rock during asphalt judo the other day. On the plus side I can re-confirm that ukemi works. I think it's super important to practice in a variety of locations- I've known guys who just couldn't fight outside the dojo without getting crazy nerves and it really impacted their tournament performance (I think it was like stage fright).
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Aug 2, 2012 23:50
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Zombywuf posted:Pretty much all the HEMA guys I know (which is a limited selection I grant you) balk at anything that moves it closer to current Olympic fencing. I mean, do you really want to introduce right of way rules and make well over 50% of hits a double? I don't think right of way is really the way to go. From how I understand it, it'd eliminate a lot of techniques that take place in the Indes (Meisterhauen, anyone?) However, using a system to clearly deal with double hits would be pretty nice. gently caress if I know what, I haven't seen anything work better than multiple judges, and that doesn't exactly work very well. But at least there are consistent rules, and sportifying the material a bit in the interest of allowing proper competition would be nice. As long as we manage to avoid the "tag with swords". BirdOfPlay posted:Formalizing would be a worthwhile discussion, and I'm willing to wager that that's what this "HEMAC" is aiming to do, along with that SvHEMAF, too. And these ruleset questions are a big reason why. Yeah, pretty much. It's still a pretty young branch of martial arts (oh the irony), so it should be interesting to see where we end up in a decade or so. On a different note entirely, I celebrated being released from the hospital and allowed to exercise again by buying a proper BJJ Gi and some grappling gloves! Holy crap, this is quite a step up from my 20 bucks horrible ebay judo gi. Pants seem perfect, not entirely sure how the jacket should fit. Sadly, my hands seem to fall right in between sizes for the gloves. S/M is a bit tight (impossible to wrap) and doesn't properly cover all my fingers, but I think the L/XL is probably way too big. Again, how should this stuff fit?
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Aug 3, 2012 00:13
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I received and accepted the job in security for awhile because of my training, but that's not why I am the way that I am. I also didn't start training because I wanted a job in the field. I got picked on and bullied as a kid, plain and simple. I got kicked in the legs and had my bike smashed when I was 7 by a juvenile delinquent that was graduated from high school because I lipped off when he broke a window playing baseball in a park. It wasn't always physical, and I was intelligent enough to handle most of the verbal jabs but it left me with a frail self-confidence. I was extremely skinny and unfit at the age of 19. I started doing martial arts and working out, and it's become the passion that defines my life. I can remember what it was like to feel afraid of the unknown, or timid next to a stranger just because he's bigger. I walk around the street at night with a level-head and a desire to avoid conflict. I'm an extremely friendly person. Rest assured though I train for a reason. I've stopped a mugging before because I was in the right place at the right time, and I was lucky enough that neither of the assholes had a weapon on them. I walk around feeling empowered like a coiled viper. I don't want to hurt anyone, but I know that unless they're a professionally trained fighter too that I will likely be the one that's still standing after we exchange.
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Aug 3, 2012 01:00
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Kumo Jr. posted:"I am a shark, the ground is my ocean and most people can't even swim" That is so loving metal 
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Aug 3, 2012 02:51
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jeez relax guys I got them to fight and they ended up just having sex so just chill
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Aug 3, 2012 05:14
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Rhaka posted:I don't think right of way is really the way to go. From how I understand it, it'd eliminate a lot of techniques that take place in the Indes (Meisterhauen, anyone?) However, using a system to clearly deal with double hits would be pretty nice. gently caress if I know what, I haven't seen anything work better than multiple judges, and that doesn't exactly work very well.  Maybe si, maybe no. Although, honestly, I doubt many historical techniques involve getting hit with significant force while attempting a counter-attack.Is this an example of Meisterhauen? Cause, as a fencer, that looked like a counterattack with opposition. By our rules it doesn't have priority, but priority's not the be-all-end-all in terms of how people fence or how touches are awarded. In the case of a counter with opposition, if you want to score with it, you must be able to keep your opponent from arriving with their attack or your opponent will, probably*, score. Which, I might add, is very much in line with not trying for a double, which is a complaint I've heard about Right of Way. *Attack is off-target, it's the remise, etc. quote:"tag with swords" Ugh, I've really trying super hard to not rant about RoW, it's effects on fencing, and how another system would be "more real" in this thread. But my point is simple, RoW, as a concept, is an abstraction and is used to judge actions based on their correctness, given the situation that occurred. This is almost directly derived from the history of fencing being for preparation of a duel. EDIT: Actually, I kinda lied, I wouldn't mind have a discussion on this. BirdOfPlay fucked around with this message at 05:39 on Aug 3, 2012 |
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Aug 3, 2012 05:32
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Daysvala posted:Hello kickass goons; Hey the main place to train martial arts in Hamilton is Joslins, Im sure its still out there and its a karate place traditionally but has branched out to MMA as its become popular, owned by the Joslin family who are sorta local legends in the area for martial arts and Jeff Joslin had a pretty cool MMA career. You can do karate there and try out some grappling too and see if you like it
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Aug 3, 2012 05:44
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In the states visiting for a while, so I'm searching for a few gyms. Just trained at a gym where the instructor told me he doesn't do padwork because he's afraid of his students leaving him... My jaw hit the floor
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Aug 3, 2012 08:42
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Uh so what does he do with them instead? I can't imagine training Muay Thai without pad work..
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Aug 3, 2012 09:03
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BirdOfPlay posted:Ugh, I've really trying super hard to not rant about RoW, it's effects on fencing, and how another system would be "more real" in this thread. But my point is simple, RoW, as a concept, is an abstraction and is used to judge actions based on their correctness, given the situation that occurred. This is almost directly derived from the history of fencing being for preparation of a duel. I am very much down, because I don't understand it very well! These are some more examples. I guess, much like female tennis, the screaming makes it better?Generally, there isn't much passive blocking, because you could also make sure to displace your opponent's blade and hit him in the face with the same action instead. The name of the game is staying alive, you do so by not getting hit, murdering the opponent, and making sure that when you cut him he can't knife you anyway. Which you usually do by binding up his blade, stepping out of the line of attack etc. How does that translate to Right of Way? Also, there's the whole Ringen am Schwert (Wrestling with the sword) which would play havoc with RoW, I think. Pushing someone's elbow away, collecting both of their arms and charging through while there's a high bind, pommel strikes (armlocks with a buckler!), the entire range of Ringen is full of tricksy poo poo for rule fuckery.
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Aug 3, 2012 09:13
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eine dose socken posted:Uh so what does he do with them instead? I can't imagine training Muay Thai without pad work.. Drills and sparring. You can train without pad work, it just takes an awesome trainer to make it work. It's not worth the hassle. edit: needless to say the gym was poo poo. Might have been a good MMA gym, but loving awful Muay Thai
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Aug 3, 2012 09:47
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Rhaka posted:I am very much down, because I don't understand it very well! Counterattack directly into your opponent's attack? Touch for your opponent. Priority of attack over counterattack, you shouldn't be throwing themselves into someone's attack. Take control of your opponent's blade before continuing your attack? Your touch. Priority of a prise-de-fer (of which, the beat(-attack) is the most common), if you lost control of your blade, you can't make an effective attack. Deflect you opponent's blade off line when they attacked you and then attacked? Your touch. Priority of the riposte. Breaking the line significantly weakens the attack, continuing puts the fencer into danger. Point in line. Unless you've dealt with you opponent's blade there is no way for you to stab your opponent without them simultaneously stabbing you. Of course, all this only matters if both fencers land their touches (regardless of if it's on or off for foil). quote:These are some more Those naked arms are scaring the crap out of me. So are the bare hands.  quote:Generally, there isn't much passive blocking, because you could also make sure to displace your opponent's blade and hit him in the face with the same action instead. The name of the game is staying alive, you do so by not getting hit, murdering the opponent, and making sure that when you cut him he can't knife you anyway. Which you usually do by binding up his blade, stepping out of the line of attack etc. Never said you could just copy and paste fencing's RoW to the various HEMA weapons out there!  But seriously, let's consider a variation of this exchange (zwerch). What happens if the defenders form is noticeably off such that the attacker still hits him with the attacker's initial swing as he completes his attack on the attacker's head, is that a double or a single? If it's counted as a double and happens enough, should both competitors be DQ'ed? Coming at this as a fencer, that doesn't seem right. And honestly, ever since I first heard about the DQ for doubles thing, it's left a bad taste in my mouth, for this reason. My personal belief, in this scenario is that the attacker's action was correct throughout. In this case, I'd say the attacker won the exchange and should be awarded properly. Also, in regards to the DQ for doubles, why should the attacker be penalized for making a correctly executed action? I've just established that my opponent can't defend that line, why should I avoid attacking into it, save for the DQ risk? Take the flip side, the defender didn't not establish a solid defense to the attacker's blow and allowed himself to be struck. From here, we can say that the defender was at fault and, thus, should be penalized. For fencer, we do that by awarding their opponent the touch. HEMA may want to work out a different system. I don't know, this is just one of many things that need to be discussed. Maybe make mistakes such as this penalized with a (possibly additional) DQ point. So, both competitors receive a DQ point for the initial double, but then the defender receives one for the weak defense, too. This way, it keeps people from just swinging wildly and forcing doubles and penalizes those who cause such actions even more as they are now advancing twice as fast to the DQ limit. I don't know, options. quote:Also, there's the whole Ringen am Schwert (Wrestling with the sword) which would play havoc with RoW, I think. Pushing someone's elbow away, collecting both of their arms and charging through while there's a high bind, pommel strikes (armlocks with a buckler!), the entire range of Ringen is full of tricksy poo poo for rule fuckery. I'll be honest, I haven't seen any of the longsword bouts here that involved any Ringen. So, I really don't have much to go on in regards to it and a RoW system. And, also, fencing deals with this simply, corps a corps (body to body) is a cardable offense for the conventional weapons (yellow/red) or simply a halt in epee. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that Right of Way is not really about creating doubles, but offering solutions to when a double occurs. From watching a lot of fencing, I've learned that even if two lights go off, generally, one of the fencers was "right." I'm sure you've seen the same things too with longsword.
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Aug 3, 2012 11:55
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niethan posted:The sport has come a long long long way since the sixties. Of course. You could do a double leg in the sixties.
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Aug 3, 2012 16:00
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BirdOfPlay posted:I guess what I'm trying to get at is that Right of Way is not really about creating doubles, but offering solutions to when a double occurs. From watching a lot of fencing, I've learned that even if two lights go off, generally, one of the fencers was "right." I'm sure you've seen the same things too with longsword. This is the problem that the "fencing as a martial art" crowd have with RoW. The fundamental rule of fencing as a martial art is: don't get killed. A double is a failure in this regard, but RoW allows fencers who have got themselves killed to still score. The difficulty is finding a way to penalise fencers for getting killed that affects them in such a way that they don't want it to happen. Within the confines of a single bout this is pretty much impossible. One possible solution would be a matrix tournament with cumulative score, where doubles count as a negative point for each party, that way both parties would be extremely discouraged from making an insecure attack. The old fencing manuals are full of talk on fencing securely or safely, as their primary concern was getting a sword into their opponent without the opponent doing the same. An unsafe attack means that both parties lose, not that both parties win. When a person makes a mistake that allows an attack, it is up to the attacker to ensure he can do this in time and without risk to himself. RoW for sabre, for example, requires that if you make a time cut to your opponents arm you must disengage before the incoming attack lands, this is clearly correct. However, it does not require that attacks are made with the arm covered to prevent time attacks as you will have right of way over the time cut, this is seen as clearly wrong, in a real fight you've still got the tendons in your arm severed, which is hard to call a win.
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Aug 3, 2012 17:48
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Zombywuf posted:This is the problem that the "fencing as a martial art" crowd have with RoW. The fundamental rule of fencing as a martial art is: don't get killed. A double is a failure in this regard, but RoW allows fencers who have got themselves killed to still score. The difficulty is finding a way to penalise fencers for getting killed that affects them in such a way that they don't want it to happen. Within the confines of a single bout this is pretty much impossible. One possible solution would be a matrix tournament with cumulative score, where doubles count as a negative point for each party, that way both parties would be extremely discouraged from making an insecure attack. If we assume nobody involved wants a double kill, and that both fencers are skilled enough to recognize danger, wouldn't it follow that nobody would ever use a counterattack that will predictably result in a double kill? So a lot of the "insecure attacks" you refer to would generally be secure after all, in practice? Consequently the person who should (most) be penalized is the person performing an unsafe counterattack. They're the one acting with full knowledge that both people are about to be stabbed. The original attacker would justifiably be surprised at that result. And in many real confrontations (depending on the circumstances) he might well judge the risk that his opponent would act irrationally to be worth the benefits of a more aggressive attack. But the counterattacker is precisely the person RoW is designed to punish, right? I'm woefully ignorant on the topic but it actually seems like a very reasonable solution to (as you say) an insoluble problem. Though of course, whether the system is well implemented is another matter. McNerd fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Aug 3, 2012 |
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Aug 3, 2012 18:21
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I think we need to take those buttons off the end, sharpen that steel and accept the four year sacrifice to gods.
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Aug 3, 2012 18:59
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McNerd posted:If we assume nobody involved wants a double kill, and that both fencers are skilled enough to recognize danger, wouldn't it follow that nobody would ever use a counterattack that will predictably result in a double kill? quote:So a lot of the "insecure attacks" you refer to would generally be secure after all, in practice? quote:Consequently the person who should (most) be penalized is the person performing an unsafe counterattack. They're the one acting with full knowledge that both people are about to be stabbed. quote:The original attacker would justifiably be surprised at that result. quote:And in many real confrontations (depending on the circumstances) he might well judge the risk that his opponent would act irrationally to be worth the benefits of a more aggressive attack. But the counterattacker is precisely the person RoW is designed to punish, right? Meyer for example makes all attacks with the hands raised and large sweeping cuts which simultaneously threaten the opponent yet cover the opponents lines of attack with a forward lean to minimise the areas of the body exposed to counter attack. Burton talked talked about how cuts to the leg should never be made because they leave your entire upper body exposed. Waite stressed the importance of opposition in all cuts as it defends a lot of the lines of attack while making a cut. Agrippa taught a style with the point held very forward as it made any attempt to attack very dangerous, most of the rest of his technique is about getting around a forward point to make an attack.
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Aug 3, 2012 19:08
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By the way, there's a lot of blending of terms that are, at the least, confusing me.Zombywuf posted:This is the problem that the "fencing as a martial art" crowd have with RoW. The fundamental rule of fencing as a martial art is: don't get killed. A double is a failure in this regard, but RoW allows fencers who have got themselves killed to still score. Well, I don't see that as being the case. Parries are the first big area where I see that definition falling apart as knocking the point out of position negates a lot of the energy from the attack. The resulting remise is noticeable weaker than the riposte. quote:The difficulty is finding a way to penalise fencers for getting killed that affects them in such a way that they don't want it to happen. Within the confines of a single bout this is pretty much impossible.  quote:One possible solution would be a matrix tournament with cumulative score, where doubles count as a negative point for each party, that way both parties would be extremely discouraged from making an insecure attack. How do the negatives only effect the fencers in regards to the tourney but not the individual bout? I know if I'm having touches removed during the course of my bout, I see a direct effect. I've got to say if you're really trying to effect behavior of competitors, you need to make the punishments/rewards immediate and noticeable. Otherwise, the simple cause and effect chain is stretched and a competitor really doesn't see how their actions could cause problems. quote:RoW for sabre, for example, requires that if you make a time cut to your opponents arm you must disengage before the incoming attack lands, this is clearly correct. I guess that could be construed as an application of RoW... quote:However, it does not require that attacks are made with the arm covered to prevent time attacks as you will have right of way over the time cut, this is seen as clearly wrong, in a real fight you've still got the tendons in your arm severed, which is hard to call a win. Attacks-in-preparation and the reduced lockout time both help in knocking those instances down. I'm really tired and this response is taking too long (at least an hour or two cause I'm really spacey). I'll respond more later on, but I do have a couple of quick questions. Do you support after-blow rules? Do you agree that RoW took shape centuries ago? Do you understand that for any form of competition abstractions and concessions must be made?
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Aug 3, 2012 21:54
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Does anyone have any experience with this? http://www.zerotoheroboxing.com/ I am seriously tempted.
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Aug 3, 2012 22:51
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willie_dee posted:Does anyone have any experience with this? The thing about martial arts so many people don't understand is that we get these bodies through sweat, blood, vomit, and more. We don't do martial arts for fitness (sure we might start this way). We do it because we don't understand any other way of being. That being said, a lot of boxing exercises and drills aren't that great for getting in shape. They're just as good as yoga or tae bo or something like that. What gives boxers their great fitness is this overhanging threat that if they don't, some gigantic Monster is going to knock their block off. Not another banker who will tap them til they both run out of breath. Basically, these types of programs are great if you're tenacious as a dog, and if you have this mindset, you'd do extremely well just by doing a normal boxing program and probably get a LOT more out of it
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Aug 3, 2012 23:14
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Willie go to the gym with the most gypsies.
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Aug 4, 2012 05:21
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Guilty posted:The thing about martial arts so many people don't understand is that we get these bodies through sweat, blood, vomit, and more. We don't do martial arts for fitness (sure we might start this way). We do it because we don't understand any other way of being. Huh? This seems like a really pretentious way to look at that program. I think this is a good way to get into your first fight. The website makes it seem different to the reality - at least where I've encountered it. It's advertised in my gym to people who have been training, maybe just bag work, and who haven't stepped up to an actual fight but might want to. You may not want to fight again ever, but at least you can say you've had one fight. There's often a charity side to it too.
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Aug 4, 2012 06:26
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Kid Yamamoto doesn't have flying knees this good: http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/soccer/highlights-morgans-knee-collides-with-new-zealand-gks-face.html goddamn
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Aug 4, 2012 06:30
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How do you guys feel about this metaphor? Judo is to jiu-jitsu, as diving is to swimming.
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Aug 4, 2012 06:56
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Sure, if everyone dived into the pool at the same time and had to start swimming to the other end before the ref stops them halfway.
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Aug 4, 2012 07:27
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If you can't get to the other side of the pool in 5 seconds maybe you shouldn't have gotten into it in the first place 
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Aug 4, 2012 09:20
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BirdOfPlay posted:By the way, there's a lot of blending of terms that are, at the least, confusing me. quote:Well, I don't see that as being the case. Parries are the first big area where I see that definition falling apart as knocking the point out of position negates a lot of the energy from the attack. The resulting remise is noticeable weaker than the riposte. quote:How do the negatives only effect the fencers in regards to the tourney but not the individual bout? I know if I'm having touches removed during the course of my bout, I see a direct effect. quote:I've got to say if you're really trying to effect behavior of competitors, you need to make the punishments/rewards immediate and noticeable. Otherwise, the simple cause and effect chain is stretched and a competitor really doesn't see how their actions could cause problems. quote:I guess that could be construed as an application of RoW... quote:It's certainly not a "kill" like you were obsessing about above! quote:Do you support after-blow rules? quote:Do you agree that RoW took shape centuries ago? quote:Do you understand that for any form of competition abstractions and concessions must be made?
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Aug 4, 2012 11:59
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gregarious Ted posted:Huh? This seems like a really pretentious way to look at that program. - Most grown-ups don't have time for a 10-week pro-style training camp if that's what they're actually offering. Instead of "white collar fighting" I'd figure it's more like "useless rich kid who just got finished failing his 100K liberal arts degree fighting". - That kind of training is excessive unless you're in good shape to begin with. - I have zero respect for people that compete against out of shape goons or some alcoholic 50 year old Thai just to impress their friends with "I've had a fight". - Does you gym inform you of other ways of fighting in front of a crowd & giving to charity? Like, competing at a newcomer tournament & donating the money you save by not doing a pointless 10-week camp at another gym. Switching gyms for 10 weeks before you've even had a sparring session is definitely not "a good way to get into your first fight" unless your own gym is complete garbage.
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Aug 4, 2012 13:46
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I posted a while back about starting BJJ, being an unfit fat gently caress, and generally hurting all the time and being awful. I've been training twice a week for 3 months now, and lost nearly 2 pants sizes (been eating right too). Last night, I wasn't completely wrecked after training for the first time ever. Also, I didn't have to rest instead of rolling, even once. Previously, I'd been sitting out one or two 5 minute rounds because I was either exhausted or in pain. I got a submission on someone my own weight/height who's been training twice as long as me. A guy who I look up to told me I was "getting drat fast". Best of all, I got a takedown which made my coach yell "Well done! Very good!" He's never yelled that at me during a roll before. I was on the verge of giving up, and now I'm going to keep going. I know I'll never be great, but I can do this poo poo and have fun and one day get good enough to compete. Feels good man.
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Aug 4, 2012 14:48
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Zombywuf posted:It's possible that any terminology I'm using is over 100 years out of date. quote:I think the difference here comes from whether you're counting hits or touches. I wouldn't usually call that situation a remise, I would require there to be a deliberate action, but this is again most likely due to 100 year old use of terminology. "Remise," for what it's worth, is the official term that I'd use when reconstructing a phrase as a ref, as the term "continuation" has fallen almost completely out of use. I'd prefer continuation for that example as it implies that the attacker, after finding his blade deflected merely follows through with their action. I prefer remise for when it's a new action while still in a lunge position, but it seems like redoublement is the preferred term for all actions after a failed attack that do not return to on guard. quote:A double is essentially both fencers fault. quote:Well point scoring is as immediately noticeable when it goes down as when it goes up. Also, had to Google "matrix tournament" as Wiki didn't know it either. Sounds almost like a simple round-robin, with the first ranking citeria being points instead of wins, or am I missing something? This is similar to how pools are run for seeding before the DE or repechage rounds begin, save that the first thing viewed is win percentage then it goes to indicator (touches scored minus touches recieved). quote:This might have made more sense if I'd said retreat instead of disengage. For example sabre's lockout time was dropped from 300ms to 120 ms, and it radically changed the game as it forced actions to be made tighter and cleaner. Exposing arm during the attack (or chase), having a weak parry, or a sloppy riposte were now punished with out-of-priority actions like stop-hits, and remises/continuations. quote:Yes, an attack in progress should be dealt with. If you made a stop cut that doesn't stop the opponent you'd better be doing it from a position of safety. quote:Yes, as a pedagogical tool to attempt to prevent doubles between students. However a quick glance at any bout in the Olympics shows a hell of a lot instances of both lights going on. From hearing about it, the DQ for doubles doesn't feel like the best way to go about eliminating doubles. Take a matrix tourney. If I'm completely outclassed by an opponent, will the DQ hurt me more than not scoring any points? I'm somewhat knowledgeable on the tactics of epee, so I can saw that being able to land doubles against an attack is definitely inside their toolkit. Zombywuf posted:Meyer for example makes all attacks with the hands raised and large sweeping cuts which simultaneously threaten the opponent yet cover the opponents lines of attack with a forward lean to minimise the areas of the body exposed to counter attack. Burton talked talked about how cuts to the leg should never be made because they leave your entire upper body exposed. Waite stressed the importance of opposition in all cuts as it defends a lot of the lines of attack while making a cut. Agrippa taught a style with the point held very forward as it made any attempt to attack very dangerous, most of the rest of his technique is about getting around a forward point to make an attack. About Burton, I once read that it was this notion that resulted in sabre being limited to above the waist. And it wasn't only the exposure of the highlines argued either, but the ease with which to dodge, displace, etc. cuts and trusts to the legs. It's an interesting argument and is much better than the "cause horses" reasons some in the sport are so prone to. About Agrippa, I instantly thought of foil. When first teaching the on guard, it is stress that the point should be "constantly threatening" your opponent. As an aside, do you know much about the sabre found in HEMA? I mean, I know my sabre is light, comparatively, but my understanding is that a light saber was in use and in prominent, historically (the accounts for our weapon relate it to either a light cavalry or a dueling saber). There's just a little oddity from how was trained I and continue to cut with the saber. It's not a wrist or arm action, but the cut comes from my hand (and fingers) entirely. In fact, I can make a cut with just my thumb and index finger. Is this how y'all do cuts as well? From looking at some actual sabers, it looks like the back half of hilt for some have a space for the thumb to go. But I don't really think "pushing with the thumb, pulling the fingers" would work all that wel
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Aug 4, 2012 16:32
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willie_dee posted:Does anyone have any experience with this? The whole white collar boxing thing is kind of dumb. There are a lot of guys in boxing gyms who are not serious fighters but still train seriously and work hard. The white collar thing just seems like a way for insecure dudes to brag at bars without working too hard or confronting their fear of minorities and getting hit in the face too hard.
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Aug 4, 2012 17:12
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AlphaDog posted:I posted a while back about starting BJJ, being an unfit fat gently caress, and generally hurting all the time and being awful. I've been training twice a week for 3 months now, and lost nearly 2 pants sizes (been eating right too). Don't sell yourself short. I know you feel like you're just "being realistic" and you're looking around at all the other guys who are more fit and more experienced, and thinking "they'll always be a bit better than me". I bet that when I started I was worse than anyone here. I couldn't do a simple sweep, and I had to overthink every single movement and limb position. I was awkward, uncoordinated and awful. I would get trapped on the bottom, guard passed and beaten down again and again. Now I've had people make excuses for losing to me, and people tell me that "you're lucky that you were born such a natural grappler". They can't see all the hard work, persistence, and downright stubbornness that I've invested over the years. They have no idea where I started or how far I've come. That can and will be you too if you stick with it.
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Aug 4, 2012 18:34
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BirdOfPlay posted:"...hits or touches." Good point. From the way in which we use the box, a lot of the subjectivity has been removed regarding how hard is hard enough. This is because it has historically been a problem of judges not acknowledging weaker hits as valid. For reference, the spring that resists the button from being pressed must support a 500g weight, meaning that it takes roughly 5 N of force to depress. To weak? There's also debounce time for foil which is an entirely other kettle of fish. quote:Too be honest, I've really enjoyed this mainly for really driving this point home about y'all mindset on this issue. As this is exactly the point where we diverge on. quote:Also, had to Google "matrix tournament" as Wiki didn't know it either. Sounds almost like a simple round-robin, with the first ranking citeria being points instead of wins, or am I missing something? This is similar to how pools are run for seeding before the DE or repechage rounds begin, save that the first thing viewed is win percentage then it goes to indicator (touches scored minus touches recieved). quote:Oh, I understood that you meant avoiding by either displacement (means dodging, basically) or retreating. I was getting at that the scoring boxes use something called "lockout time" to determine if hits are valid after one fencer lands a touch (250ms for foil, 120ms for sabre, and 15 ms for epee). This really isn't considered part of RoW and has changed several times since things went electric. quote:And is it a double or does it just annul the attack? I had noticed that this was a discussion at some point in HEMA's recent past when this rule was being added to tourneys. quote:From hearing about it, the DQ for doubles doesn't feel like the best way to go about eliminating doubles. Take a matrix tourney. If I'm completely outclassed by an opponent, will the DQ hurt me more than not scoring any points? I'm somewhat knowledgeable on the tactics of epee, so I can saw that being able to land doubles against an attack is definitely inside their toolkit. quote:About Burton, I once read that it was this notion that resulted in sabre being limited to above the waist. And it wasn't only the exposure of the highlines argued either, but the ease with which to dodge, displace, etc. cuts and trusts to the legs. It's an interesting argument and is much better than the "cause horses" reasons some in the sport are so prone to. quote:About Agrippa, I instantly thought of foil. When first teaching the on guard, it is stress that the point should be "constantly threatening" your opponent. quote:As an aside, do you know much about the sabre found in HEMA? I mean, I know my sabre is light, comparatively, but my understanding is that a light saber was in use and in prominent, historically (the accounts for our weapon relate it to either a light cavalry or a dueling saber). There's just a little oddity from how was trained I and continue to cut with the saber. It's not a wrist or arm action, but the cut comes from my hand (and fingers) entirely. In fact, I can make a cut with just my thumb and index finger. Weeeellll, this could be essay time. One of the features of the sabre is that it's a military weapon, and most manuals on its use are directed at military training so tend to focus on a number of simple techniques that can be easily taught to a roomful of soldiers. I'm mostly aware of Waite, Radaelli and Hutton who have quite surprisingly different styles. Burton's manual is a bit too minimalist to use and has no coverage of advanced technique, but it seems most like Hutton. Waite was a proponent of not moving the point an inch more than necessary. He doesn't have much detail on how to grip the weapon, but his cutting style favours the kind of cutting you describe, usually a firm thumb forefinger grip with pushing action of the thumb and squeezing the ring and little finger to snap the cut, the wrist will also be involved. Waite had a few things to say about the hilt design, preferring to remove the metal back plate that the British army put on their sabres as it made it harder to push with the thumb and liking those designs with a little finger rest, i.e. a raised part on the front of the hilt for the little finger. His cuts are always delivered with full opposition so as to not get you killed if your opponent strikes at the same moment. He also recommends padding the inside of the shell where the thumb presses against it, which is interesting. For the purposes of cutting lead bars in half, Waite suggests that Waite posted:The best sized sword for a man of average strength is one weighing 3 1/4 lbs., with a blade 1 3/4 inches wide and 31 inches long. Hutton by contrast, preferred big moulinet cuts with a simple set of targets: the so-called cuts 1 to 8. 7 and 8 were discouraged as 7 is straight down to the head and that tends to leave you open to counter attack and 8 is ungentlemanly and not for the salle. The cuts are delivered entirely from the wrist, possibly with the hammer grip, with the hand extended in front so that the sweep of the cut covers nearly the whole body (depending on the particular cut) during the attack - this makes the relatively slow action still quite safe. Hutton had little to say about the design of the sword IIRC, but preferred a gymnasium sword weighing about 2 lbs. for training purposes. Radaelli I know the least about having never trained in his style. His style is quite distinctive though, being Italian he keeps a guard with point on line, but this is purely defensive; cuts are delivered from the elbow to the wrist to the fingers. His attacks are made by a slight backwards lean and bringing the sword into an extreme prime with the sword pointing downwards on the left hand side of the body and the forearm over the head. The cut is then delivered with a lunge and the whole arm unwinding. A friend of mine actually owns a period sabre designed specifically for Radaelli's style. It has a metal back and no little finger rest, but it has the indentation for the thumb you describe. It's fairly heavy, and the style is definitely not to do finger and thumb cuts so it's presumably for stability. Making a parry against a moderately heavy sabre can cause your thumb to slip quite easily. It's interesting that 1908 and 1912 pattern British cavalry sabres also have this feature, despite a "pistol like" grip and being thought of as primarily thrusting weapons. The hilt design would also appear to support cutting by squeezing the ring and little fingers. I'm kinda itching to handle one, but they're a bit pricey. They weighed about 3 1lbs. Unfortunately most sabre fencing ends up being Hanwei's repro sabres, which are, well, tolerable. They're very light and have terrible hilts. They are also affordable though. A good repro can cost well over £200, and often you have no idea what you're getting till it arrives. Or you can get one custom made, if you're willing to wait for several months for it to arrive, if it ever does.
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Aug 5, 2012 00:47
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FYI, Olympic Wrestling starts at 8AM Eastern tomorrow (Sunday) morning.
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Aug 5, 2012 01:48
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Day 9 of 40 since I came back to the states and have started training on my own, shadow boxing and running through a canyon behind my house. It's a nice one, the entire run from door to door is approximately 12 miles and there's a rather big change in elevation, so it's hilly and challenging. Still, no heavy bag, no sparring partner, no padwork. There's a gracie morumbi branch near my house, but I haven't tried it yet since the kickboxing course is mostly fitness kickboxing. I went to a gym which boasted a full MMA/Muay Thai program, and the head trainer/owner said that Thai people don't shadow box, and didn't do padwork because he was afraid of students learning how and leaving his gym. That should give you an idea of how his training was. Major depression starting to settle in. Will probably end up at the gracie gym.
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Aug 5, 2012 02:26
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Guilty posted:Day 9 of 40 since I came back to the states and have started training on my own, shadow boxing and running through a canyon behind my house. It's a nice one, the entire run from door to door is approximately 12 miles and there's a rather big change in elevation, so it's hilly and challenging. Make friends with people that have skills. Buy your own pads. I started training an athletic buddy from work, and now within 3 sessions we're training each other. Don't get depressed, get motivated.
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Aug 5, 2012 03:31
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Kumo Jr. posted:Make friends with people that have skills. Buy your own pads. I started training an athletic buddy from work, and now within 3 sessions we're training each other. Don't get depressed, get motivated. There's a lot of extraneous things contributing, cancer and death included, but I can't believe how much of a difference good training sessions contribute to my mood stabilization. I'm still scouting for gyms and trying to make something that will work for 40 days. edit: even put a craigslist ad up for a training partner :T
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Aug 5, 2012 03:43
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Kumo Jr. posted:Don't sell yourself short. I know you feel like you're just "being realistic" and you're looking around at all the other guys who are more fit and more experienced, and thinking "they'll always be a bit better than me". I bet that when I started I was worse than anyone here. I couldn't do a simple sweep, and I had to overthink every single movement and limb position. I was awkward, uncoordinated and awful. I would get trapped on the bottom, guard passed and beaten down again and again. Thanks man. I'm not really selling myself short. I'm crap now, but improving. Slower than I'd thought I would, but still improving. It's not like I'm losing badly every single time I roll, but a lot of the time I feel like I'm getting cheap submissions because I'm just so large and heavy at 6'3" and 122kg (down from 135kg at the start of the year).
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Aug 5, 2012 04:07
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I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. I hope finding a training partner and a conduit for that steam to burn off will help you deal with everything in a positive way. Take advantage of anything you can. If you want to feel less cheap about your large size, seek out the other large men and than practice your skills against them. Also, I'm 6'3 and our length is a much greater advantage than any size. You've probably got long legs. Develop a sick guard and practice from the bottom. When you start to get those submissions, you'll feel rewarded because there was no weight advantage crushing your opponent down.
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Aug 5, 2012 04:21
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| # ? Jun 8, 2024 04:01 |
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Everybody who thinks Judo is stupid for its standup rules or for what techniques are legal vs. illegal should take the opportunity to watch Greco Roman Wrestling in the Olympics for the next few days. Please and thank you.
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Aug 6, 2012 10:56
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