|
Following in the vein of poo poo That Wasn't Needed Today: I meant to post the story of a nightmare client evaluation we did a couple weeks ago. It was at the behest of the mother of a 20-something dude living at home with a dog-aggressive pit bull that had savaged someone's service dog, so needless to say we were willing to make this a very high priority. We get to the house, and as soon as I see the dog (I will call him Cooper), my heart sinks because he's wearing a prong collar. The kid who owns Cooper is mumbly and defensive throughout the conversation and spends most of the time trying to prove that he already knows how to handle his dog's issues (which calls into question why he hasn't). Then we get to the subject of the collar. We try to keep it simple. We don't work reactivity or aggression cases with dogs that continue to wear prongs. Holy poo poo. It was like we suggested that they actively rape infants. "There is NO evidence that it's inhumane!" the kid repeats, while trying to demonstrate by putting the collar around his leg. Never mind that no one mentioned the word "inhumane," we were not allowed a word in edgewise at all. They were so defensive for the rest of the eval that I'm not sure any of the suggestions we made were met with anything other than "yeah we tried that it didn't work" or "he already KNOWS he isn't supposed to do that." Eventually we just had to call it a night and offer a referral to a CAAB if they didn't feel it would work out - which they declined. 2 weeks later, and the review is now up on yelp, accusing us of stomping on Cooper's foot and making him limp all night (what?), not lavishing him with accolades because the dog sometimes sat on cue, and refusing to acknowledge "current training" methods (which is hilarious, since my boss is currently on track to do a PhD in behavior). Naturally we can't respond to the review with "This kid is a complete moron know-it-all dipshit who can eat a bag of dicks and here are the peer-reviewed studies to back it up," but I sure can bitch about it to you guys!
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 00:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 13:11 |
|
|
Any awful-horrible-so-bad reviews on Yelp I tend to take with a grain of salt, so here's to hoping your future clients will as well.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 00:46
|
|
|
Fraction posted:Lookit the meece I'm not really certain what color she is. Her father was that color, and unfortunately I had to breed the father to a daughter to get the color expressed. That litter was beautiful, I got that pretty creamy/yellow/orange girl, and two other that were similar except one was darker, it looked like the same color but just dirtied up, and another one that was just a few shades lighter. I'll have to get you some pictures of her sister too. And yeah, my breeders are treated more like pets. More room, breaks between litters, wheels, toys, fresh food for treats...  I hate how most feeders are treated/cared for. And yes, Captain Foxy, that is where his name is from. He has a bright pink plastic castle he sleeps in, so I thought it was fitting... 
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 01:25
|
|
Nice to hear that you retire at ~3 litters too. Some feeder breeders do just breed back to back, constantly, until the mouse dies but blegh.
|
In which (blurry) Psyche takes a drug test... when you gotta go, you gotta go  Doggie Drug Test by Kiri koli, on Flickr and comes back with a 100% clean bill of health! Aside from being crazy, she's fit as a fiddle and pretty drat smug about it. A Healthy Dog  IMG_5354 by Kiri koli, on Flickr 
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 01:36
|
|
|
I totally use a prong collar whenever I need one. (Whenever Moses has had some off leash shithead run up to him and body slam him while its owner yells "HE JUST WANTS TO SAY HI" and now we have to learn ALL ABOUT "not melting down as soon as you see another dog" AGAIN.) It's a pretty valuable bandaid for us; it keeps him in check enough to allow him to be able to go out in public while we're relearning how to be chill and stay focused. Without one he's such a screaming trainwreck that I doubt I'd be able to break through his dog rage long enough to gain access to his brain and go "hi remember me, I have treats." I have done it without a prong before but a week or two of prong use cuts out about 2-3 months of work without one. I never pop it, it's just there and exerts enough pressure to keep him from totally leaving planet earth when he sees a dog. This is A Thing for me because you wouldn't believe the snobbery I encounter with rescue ladies/Petsmart trainers assuming I know 0 about dogs/am abusive because my dog is wearing a prong. The urge to take it off of him, hand them his leash, and go "LOL ALRIGHT, YOU TRY" is overwhelming, especially when every (bland, not even DA) pit bull they have is a shut down trainwreck ("We Trained Him To Like Other Dogs And So Can You.") I mean yeah the dog ate a service dog so that kid was prob retarded and a lot of people do misuse prongs but I really don't get prong collar hate in general.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 01:42
|
|
|
I personally don't hate prong collars, but I prefer not to see them used because I think they are a tool that 90% of people use wrong and 1) they can be very harmful if used wrong and 2) they are the wrong tool in a lot of cases of reactivity when the reactivity is anxiety or fear-based. But I have no problem if the person using them knows what they're doing and, maybe more importantly, knows their dog and has put a lot of thought into the right tools to use for that dog. Out of curiosity, did you ever try a head collar? Your description of checking Moses sounds a lot like what I use a head collar for with Psyche, though I fully admit that head collars have many drawbacks and can be dangerous as well for dogs who might tend to give themselves whiplash.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 01:50
|
|
|
I got the gist that the prong was of concern because the dog was wearing it when at home awaiting a behavioural consulatation, not being actively used as a training aide. I use prongs, because a single 90 lb GSD can drag me along (standing or sitting) and I walk 2  The prong makes them slightly more manageable when they lose their mind, Delta will still pull with all her might & strength if there is a puppy to greet.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 02:06
|
|
|
Kiri koli posted:I personally don't hate prong collars, but I prefer not to see them used because I think they are a tool that 90% of people use wrong and 1) they can be very harmful if used wrong and 2) they are the wrong tool in a lot of cases of reactivity when the reactivity is anxiety or fear-based. But I have no problem if the person using them knows what they're doing and, maybe more importantly, knows their dog and has put a lot of thought into the right tools to use for that dog. I can't imagine that they'd be great for a huge, strong dog like Moses is. I have one for Bailey and started counter conditioning it, but I sort of had my doubts as to how well it would control him if he had his heart set on doing something (since he's a thick headed cattle dog).
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 02:10
|
|
|
Kiri koli posted:
I'll be honest- Moses is a lot stronger than me which is why it's so important that I have as much voice control over him as I do. I used to be REALLY fat and as a result didn't have to worry about much because I was such a whale that I was stronger than my dogs and they could do pretty much whatever and I could still hold on to them. I lost a ton of weight and I'm pretty certain that now, Moses could carry me away if he wanted, especially when he's in shape. 99% of the time, when his brain is in the right place, I can walk him on a loose lead with a flat collar through a crowd of screaming dogs and people and he'd be fine. When he's had Yet Another off leash dog experience and we're suffering another setback, he get so intently focused on any dog that he sees that he would most likely drag me away on a flat collar. I haven't tried a head collar, but I know him well enough to know that the second he met resistance with it he would have such a panic attack meltdown that he would probably break his neck if he didn't just freak out so badly he got away from me first. Introducing it to him beforehand so he'd be used to it when the time came to use it wouldn't work; he regresses immensely and gets so mad when an off leash dog starts poo poo with him that he turns into a mindless ball of Get The Dog until we "fix it" and I can guarantee that any prior experience with it would go out the window because "Something is grabbing my face and there are dogs everywhere, ESCAPE." He's a snowflake and he thinks that as long as he is following His Rules everything should always go according to plan. If he looks at me and "leaves it" when another dog is walking by, and that dog happens to be off leash and bowls up to him, he basically throws an emotional tantrum because "I was doing what I was supposed to do and that guy STILL CAME OVER HERE and I didn't want him to and now everything I know is meaningless and you are a liar and I can't trust what you say!!!  " and then I have to spend a few weeks/months re-convincing him that the world is still in one piece and that I will still mostly keep the other dogs away if he will hold up his end of the deal and not act like a crazy person when he sees them. I am only slightly anthropomorphizing. Unrelated, but I loving finally managed to catch him in a decent free stack. He stands this way naturally all the time, he just droops so much when he sees a camera that I can never capture it.   He's not perfectly square and his back legs are still a little too up underneath him, but when he's actually close to stacked and not sulking like a neckless pig, he's not half bad. Still beef, but! 
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 02:15
|
|
|
^^^I sympathize. Nothing makes me more angry than an off-leash dog rushing my dog and ruining months of work. I know exactly what you mean when you say Moses loses his head, I can pinpoint the exact moment that Psyche's brain shuts off. She's getting much better, but off-leash, out of control dogs will always be our bane. Luckily, she can't drag me down the street. wtftastic posted:I can't imagine that they'd be great for a huge, strong dog like Moses is. I have one for Bailey and started counter conditioning it, but I sort of had my doubts as to how well it would control him if he had his heart set on doing something (since he's a thick headed cattle dog). Yeah, that's what I figured, but I've never had to manage a big dog and thought I would ask. I've had class with a big GSD that used a head collar fine and also a pit bull that uses just a flat collar. I imagine it makes a difference what the dog's goal is as well. I mean, while Psyche will definitely bite, her goal is to scare others away rather than actually get into it with them. Kiri koli fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Aug 14, 2012 |
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 02:16
|
|
|
A local balanced training group (who I'm pretty sure secretly hates me lolol) use prongs as a crutch, plus they don't use treats because ~bribery~. One of my FB "friends" from said group recently posted pics of their new member, a Weim puppy. On the picture of it in a prong, she wrote, in the smuggest way possible, "Yep folks that's a puppy walking loose leash in under 15 minutes!!" The rest of the album is full of little backhanded jabs at positive trainers too. Then they show the puppy going over their crazy agility course, for confidence building. Which is great, except... in every picture they're literally shoving the puppy, who is obviously nervous, over each piece of equipment. Not to mention that's not exactly the best activity for a dog who still has open growth plates. Just... ugh, goddamn. I basically have the same thoughts on prongs as Kiri Koli. I think they're largely unnecessary, though, and should be one of the tools you consider as a last resort because of the potential behavioral fallout. All the morons around here that use them have only further embittered me about them.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 02:22
|
|
|
My mom saw this picture and immediately went "Oh, look at that poor emaciated dog!!" Sausage that dog up, super!
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 02:24
|
|
|
Radio! posted:My mom saw this picture and immediately went "Oh, look at that poor emaciated dog!!" Tell her the emaciated dog is currently eating 4lbs of raw chicken a day, a cup of the highest protein/calorie kibble I can get my hands on, 1/4lb of beef hearts, and 6 eggs If he's still hungry he can turn around and chew on his own giant hams.  (My mom keeps worrying about how I'm feeding the puppy because she "Doesn't want him to look like Moses, she couldn't live with herself if her poor doggies ribs were showing and he was hungry all the time!!"  )
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 02:29
|
|
|
Superconsndar posted:It's a pretty valuable bandaid for us; it keeps him in check enough to allow him to be able to go out in public while we're relearning how to be chill and stay focused. Without one he's such a screaming trainwreck that I doubt I'd be able to break through his dog rage long enough to gain access to his brain and go "hi remember me, I have treats." I have done it without a prong before but a week or two of prong use cuts out about 2-3 months of work without one. I never pop it, it's just there and exerts enough pressure to keep him from totally leaving planet earth when he sees a dog. I have one for Asa. Its not so she can't drag me away, it's so she doesn't choke herself to the point of throwing up. 95% of the time, she's fine. But some days, she just is reallllllly twitchy, and I can tell she needs the prong. I don't pop it, just have it on her. Its enough that after one or two runs to the end of the leash, she gets her head on straight and walks like a good dog. Greatest thing I have for when my mother walks her to - keeps the old ladies wrists from getting yanked off :P
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 02:33
|
|
|
Superconsndar posted:Tell her the emaciated dog is currently eating 4lbs of raw chicken a day, a cup of the highest protein/calorie kibble I can get my hands on, 1/4lb of beef hearts, and 6 eggs I'd personally never give my dog raw meat. First because he's a BT and it's not like he's gonna be anything but a pet for my mother. Secondly because I'd worry constantly about poisoning him with bad raw meat or something. The Blue Buffalo kibble we get him is good enough for him.  Also Super, I was at work sunday and this pit kept smashing me in the gut with his head, so I went 'Moses cut it out! Wait..no I meant *dog name*'  All Pits are Moses now for some reason. Get out of my head!edit: Also how the poo poo does that dog go through 4 POUNDS of chicken a day? The most I've ever seen a dog eat was 4 cups of kibble, and that was a huge rear end Bull Mastiff.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 02:35
|
|
|
Bash Ironfist posted:
It's ok. All shibas are Koji to me  Super I know you said you had one especially bad run from feeding raw chicken from a grocery store so now you're more careful. Do you have an awesome local butcher that you get meat from? Going to whole foods or something seems like it would drain funds like nobody's business. Also your mom's personality is so hateable it is hilarious but I do feel so terrible for you. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 02:45
|
|
|
So what are proper uses for a prong collar? I don't own one, but I'm hoping to one day transition bailey to a flat collar (most likely a martingale) and while he's so much better about loose leash walking on a harness, he still pulls on occasion and I imagine that transitioning him to a flat would be hard. I'm not seriously considering it, I'm just sort of curious as to what people ought to use them for.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 02:46
|
|
|
So the Max teeth saga continues, and I'd like to get some opinions: He has three broken teeth, both his top canines are broken and one of his bottom canines is broken. When we took him to the vet for his initial post-adoption checkup, the vet said that we should get them pulled and have it done while he was out under anesthesia for his neutering the following week. So we take him to the other vet to get him neutered (the shelter partners with this other vet to do free neuters for all adoptions, or else we'd have got it done at the first vet) and we ask the vet to please pull his broken teeth while he's out. The vet neuters him and then calls me and tells me she can't pull his canines because his jaw will go all out of whack and we need to get him caps or implants and gave us the number of a dental specialist, who happens to be the first vet. So I call up the first vet again, tell her that the second vet says she can't pull the teeth, what now? Then the vet basically tells me that the second vet is full of poo poo and it wouldn't mess up his jaw to pull the broken teeth, but ideally he should get root canals on all three, or get the top two pulled and a root canal on the bottom, or get all three pulled and have his tongue stick out the side where he has no canines. Ok, cool. I'll get my doggy some dentistry. But wait! There's more! There's not a single solitary vet in Waco who's certified to do canine root canals! I'd have to drive down to Texas A&M to get it done (2 hours away). WTF, but okay. I'll go to extremes for my doggy. I call up A&M and get a price quote on three root canals, $3000-$3500  I got him health insurance but it excluded his broken teeth as a pre-existing condition or else I'd tell the A&M vets to go hog wild with it.So my options are:
I have a consultation appointment set up with the canine dental specialist on Friday so she can take a good look and make a more informed suggestion of a course of action to fix them, but in the meantime if this was your dog what would you do? I can't do three root canals, I would have to blow through a decent chunk of my savings to do so. I'd be willing to do the one root canal if the vet thinks it's best for him, but if I can get away with just pulling all three I'm gonna do that. Here's one of his broken canines. The bottom canine in this picture is the only one that isn't broken.  Dog status: concerned 
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 02:46
|
|
|
Re: off-leash dogs. The shelter I volunteer at is on the exhibition grounds, which are mostly empty most of the year. But the CNE (big-rear end Toronto fair) is starting next week so a bunch of people in trailers and general carny folks are showing up. Some dude was letting his labs run around off-leash right next to a loving animal shelter where people are walking dogs. Though I guess it doesn't count as off-leash if the dogs have leashes on. Even if the other end of the leash isn't connected to a human/anything at all.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 02:50
|
|
|
Bash Ironfist posted:I'd personally never give my dog raw meat. First because he's a BT and it's not like he's gonna be anything but a pet for my mother. Secondly because I'd worry constantly about poisoning him with bad raw meat or something. The Blue Buffalo kibble we get him is good enough for him.  quote:Also Super, I was at work sunday and this pit kept smashing me in the gut with his head, so I went 'Moses cut it out! Wait..no I meant *dog name*'  Maybe Moses is weird because he possesses other dogs in his spare time. quote:edit: Also how the poo poo does that dog go through 4 POUNDS of chicken a day? The most I've ever seen a dog eat was 4 cups of kibble, and that was a huge rear end Bull Mastiff. When he's skinnyfat and not in shape, he just eats 1.5-2 cups of kibble a day for maintenance. I'm in the middle of a month long conditioning deal so I can see his new shape (now that he's beefed) without any fat on it. 2 hours of springpole a day, 1-2 hours of flirtpole, all of the walking in the world. PROTEEN.  He'd be fat as hell if he ate like that when I'm being lazy with him.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 02:54
|
|
|
wtftastic posted:So what are proper uses for a prong collar? I don't own one, but I'm hoping to one day transition bailey to a flat collar (most likely a martingale) and while he's so much better about loose leash walking on a harness, he still pulls on occasion and I imagine that transitioning him to a flat would be hard. I'm not seriously considering it, I'm just sort of curious as to what people ought to use them for. This is the one good article I have about them, but I really would like more sources on proper prong use if anyone has them. I want to make a post on my blog about them because I have nothing better to do than bitch about dog things online. Kerfuffle posted:It's ok. All shibas are Koji to me You too huh?  Also all black Danes are Balen and/or Amy.
Skizzles fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Aug 14, 2012 |
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 02:58
|
|
|
Skizzles posted:This is the one good article I have about them, but I really would like more sources on proper prong use if anyone has them. I want to make a post on my blog about them because I have nothing better to do than bitch about dog things online. Skiz, what's your blog?
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 02:58
|
|
|
Kerfuffle posted:It's ok. All shibas are Koji to me Most of the people I used to know when I lived in the sticks have chickens and they'll order a few extra for me when they order chicks if I pay for them, and a few months later I have chickens. They also sell me their extra roosters/old hens/various culls. If nobody has anything, there's a flea market/sort of farmers market about 20 minutes outside of town that has people selling live poultry/rabbits for dirt cheap most of the time. Barring those, they just don't get raw stuff because gently caress that noise. The Poopsplosion of '10 is not worth repeating. quote:Also your mom's personality is so hateable it is hilarious but I do feel so terrible for you. It's okay, I just passive aggressively enrage her by calling her dog Gumbo all day!!!!!!!!! 
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 03:02
|
|
|
Invalid Octopus posted:Skiz, what's your blog? It's in my profile don't judge me.  (e: critiques are welcome though in case you find something in there that's not quite right)
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 03:02
|
|
|
I was being a bit silly in my last post about my own use of prong collars, I will clarify. I use them because I don't trust any dog 100%, even my own, and large dogs are very strong. I was almost pulled off my feet by 9-month-old Delta because she saw another dog 100m away at the park. She is more manageable with a prong. Often I walk both dogs. Even though Sigma is a natural heeler, he will pull if Delta gets him worked up. And Delta is really good about responding to vocal warnings by slowing down and veering closer to me. However, if they saw a dog they just HAD to visit, I could sit down on the sidewalk and my dogs could drag me along if they only had their flat collars. The vast, vast majority of the time the prong collars are not necessary and I actually rarely use them. If the dogs misbehave and pull like assholes, I will use the prong on the next walk. I never actively pull when the prong is on, I only tense my arm so when the dog pulls, there is resistance. I am working on better response & recall when there are distractions, but sometimes I like the added security of a prong. Here's a picture of Sigma. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 03:21
|
|
|
Skizzles posted:It's in my profile don't judge me. Your blog is great, well written and you make the topics accessible. The only thing I think it needs is more cute doggie pics.  I did leave a nitpicky comment on the latest post.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 03:36
|
|
|
Oh thank you! That was kind of my goal is to put nerdy behavior stuff in a way that's more understandable to your average dog owner. You make an excellent point in your comment, I will add it in!
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 03:39
|
|
|
Skizzles posted:Oh thank you! I'm glad I found this. I'm a new dog trainer and looking for more resources to expand my knowledge!
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 04:31
|
|
|
Kerfuffle posted:It's ok. All shibas are Koji to me  In Puppychat news, I don't think hubs and I can get a dog from our dream breeder this time. We have to go all the way out to the east coast to visit the breeder before getting on their list and then go back out there when it is time to get the puppy, and we can't swing two trips on top of their puppy cost if we want it within the next year and a half and want to, like, take the dog to a vet and puppy classes... Next time. For now, we are poking some other breeders on our list, some of which who actually have heard of us, which could be better, as well as almost nearly half the cost.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 05:25
|
|
|
paisleyfox posted:
That sucks! I hope you find a good dog closer to home. I called the Shiba at work Koji a couple of times. His name isn't anywhere close to Koji. Your dog is infectious(ly awesome).
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 05:30
|
|
|
I was again taken unawares by a passing police car that came from behind, when walking my off-leash dogs, but nope. They didn't react even though I had two of them and it's actually against the law. And last night my BC figured out what to do with a rabbit. When I saw her emerge from the woods hot on an escaping rabbits heels and managed to open my mouth I cued her to lie down. She dropped like a stone, which actually surprised me a bit, since the rest of the gang, which was on leash at that time of night, was yelling like crazy as my little BC was "herding" the drat thing straight for us...
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 06:09
|
|
|
adventure in the sandbox posted:
 Such pretty brown eyes!...Sorry, I'm a sucker for German Shepherds 
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 06:57
|
|
|
Greycious posted:I'm not really certain what color she is. Her father was that color, and unfortunately I had to breed the father to a daughter to get the color expressed. That litter was beautiful, I got that pretty creamy/yellow/orange girl, and two other that were similar except one was darker, it looked like the same color but just dirtied up, and another one that was just a few shades lighter. I'll have to get you some pictures of her sister too. She sure looks like a RY. I love the paler creamy-yellow colouring she's got going on! Just a note but inbreeding in the mouse world isn't a massive deal as long as you're not doing it *constantly*. Breeding a father to two daughters, then some of the grandkids together, could give you enough of a start for an entire line of pretty yellow mice. It sounds like you're sorted. Yeah a lot of feeders seem to use the harem method of keeping mice, aka stick a bunch of females in with a male in one tank and take out babies when they can be eaten. If I ever bred anything for food i'd hope that it could be treated as well as you seem to treat your mice*. * except for you not posting more pictures yet!
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 08:11
|
|
|
First baby bird of the season! A sleepy sparrow, cuddling in my hand It was brought in by a cat and then passed through a few people until finally ending up with me. No obvious injuries and has been eating fine. I will rehab it and integrate it with my local flock, as with my previous foundlings.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 08:28
|
|
|
If I had a yard I would get my hands on some rabbits for the dogs and do exactly this. Super, do your dogs eat the fur on the animals you give them whole? Ever had any issues with that?
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 08:59
|
|
|
My dog is a helpful dog https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZkItHv7il8
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 10:34
|
|
|
Rixatrix posted:If I had a yard I would get my hands on some rabbits for the dogs and do exactly this. Yup, they do, and no, they've never had issues. Fiber!
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 11:36
|
|
|
Oh god oh god oh god cat comes home today I think I might be hyperventilating. I spent all weekend worrying that she'll get under the bed and never come out.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 17:31
|
|
|
Tendai posted:Oh god oh god oh god cat comes home today I think I might be hyperventilating. You might want to check and make sure there are no openings in the fabric across the bottom of the box spring. It's not fun trying to retrieve a cat from inside a bed.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 18:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 13:11 |
|
|
Tendai posted:Oh god oh god oh god cat comes home today I think I might be hyperventilating. You'll be fine! They all come out eventually. ...And then you'll take lots of pictures!
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2012 18:43
|
|