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Nevermind16 posted:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19166788 I think it's more that its fishing industry is driving some of its FP interests in regards to zones of control and offshore island claims.
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Aug 8, 2012 02:05
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Fangz posted:Explain what you mean by this. China's so called fishing fleet, which as far as I can tell is basically any group ships that's origin and crew are from China have been involved in quite a few issues over the last few years. in addition to Sri Lanka issues have come from the Phillipines, And South Korea http://www.brecorder.com/world/southeast-asia/68092-philippines-warns-china-fishermen-to-stay-away-.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16134647 I for one tend to agree with the view That China does not purposefully or with malicious intent sends ships into disputed waters, however they are willfully ignorant of the movements of vessels that they are at least (legally) responsible for. they don't send their vessels into disputed areas, they simply don't care where there ships go and know furthermore any event where there fishing ships are seized or impounded gives them a public arena in which to show case to their own people they do not fear the west, and demonstrate to the world their own political clout, I do not take this view lightly as when the first fishing dispute arose I thought it could of just have been a couple of idiot fisherman, but the repeated events of Chinese fishing ships ignoring claims of illegal fishing procedures and ignoring foreign countries formal boundaries signals either a strong Fishing lobby has developed in China or China continues to allow problems to escalate but because it gives them opportunities for political and symbolic gain. But again it could just be a bunch of fishing idiots.
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Aug 8, 2012 03:31
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Just from reading the comments about Senkaku, a lot of ppl thought the fishing trawler captain was current or former PLAN. The PLA have used these "fishing trawlers" since the 1970's in regards to Senkaku, in order to give the CCP FP apparatus plausible deniability with the Japanese while allowing the hawks in the party and PLA a chance to feel like tough guys.
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Aug 8, 2012 03:37
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Nevermind16 posted:China's so called fishing fleet, which as far as I can tell is basically any group ships that's origin and crew are from China have been involved in quite a few issues over the last few years. None of this relates to this case. quote:"The fault is not with the [Chinese] crew. The case is against the [Sri Lankan] owner now," navy spokesman Kosala Warnakulasuriya told the Reuters news agency. In this case, a *Sri Lankan* fishing ship, that happens to be employing Chinese crew, happened to be breaking Sri Lankan law. And the Sri Lankan authorities decided to go prosecute the owners of the ship instead. No, China is being 'willfully ignorant' in that it does not monitor the actions of Chinese citizens abroad in the employ of foreign companies, but do you seriously expect them to? None of this incident advantages the CCP, because Sri Lanka is a foreign policy ally, and the Sri Lankan restricted zone is in no way disputed territory like Senkaku or whatever, and so the Chinese have no purpose, symbolic or otherwise, to mount some kind of weird conspiracy involving Sri Lankan intermediares, to antagonise a friend. The only relation to Chinese foreign policy here, if there is one, is that it illustrates the benefit to China of friendly relations, that the Sri Lankans decided not to hold the Chinese crew and extract political advantage out of that. And no, in this case, I can't see how 'fishing interests' is driving Chinese foreign policy. 37 dudes in a foreign boat does not match up to many millions of dollars of investment and loans and so on. Fangz fucked around with this message at 11:11 on Aug 8, 2012 |
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Aug 8, 2012 11:04
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Fishing is big business in Asia, and serves to create facts on the ground when it comes to declaring zones of control. Asia has a lot more offlying islands than other parts of the world which tend to complicate zones of control claims, and it has remarkable cooler foreign relations than any other part of the world. Fishing interests are certainly not as big of a driver as energy concerns, but they are a source of income, food security, and opportunities for pissing matches. This is especially true in China, which has a uniquely byzantine naval foreign policy structure.
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Aug 8, 2012 14:00
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First I admit for China to keep track of every single citizen and boat in a country of over 1 billion people is a pretty much impossible, that said it would make more sense to me if this was a rare occurrence. But Japan, the Philippines and South Korea have each had a separate territorial issue with Chinese fisherman or boats in the last 2 years. Yes this time it was only 37 guys but in the past its has been up to 160 vessels “Japan’s Asahi Shimbun reported last week that 160 Chinese fishing vessels were in the waters surrounding the area, and perhaps 30 of these were in Japan’s territorial waters, at the same time as the seized Chinese trawler.” Sep 13 2010 http://blogs.cfr.org/asia/2010/09/13/chinese-fishing-boat-sets-off-sino-japanese-conflict/ I don’t expect China to monitor every single boat it has, I expect when the ship count gets high enough that China’s expanding navy and powerful leaders are more than competent enough to make sure their people know what’s illegal and what’s not. If China does not in any way benefit from these disputes, it stands to reason they would use their navy and other forces to not only deter illegal fishing practices, but apply harsher penalties on their citizens. Or maybe China already is deterring illegal fishing practices and they simply can’t control their fishing industry.
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Aug 8, 2012 21:18
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There's certainly a case to be made about the various disputes with Japan. But like I said, this specific case with Sri Lanka? Not the same at all. I'm not that clear on it, but my impression is that from the view of international law, China has no responsibility to police the waters of other nations. Japan et al might sign agreements with China to cooperate in clamping down on illegal fishing, but the responsibility is in the hands of the Japanese to deal with violations as they see fit. Of course, this is further complicated by the disputed territory issue.
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Aug 8, 2012 23:34
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For those of you who haven't read the book, the NYT has a nice list of Gu Kailai quotes.quote:Before she was standing trial in a Chinese court on a murder charge, Gu Kailai, the 53-year-old lawyer and wife of deposed political leader Bo Xilai, wrote a book in a breezy style disparaging aspects of the American legal system. The following are selected quotes from the book, “Winning a Lawsuit in the U.S.,” published by Guangming Daily publishing house in February 1998.
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Aug 10, 2012 05:07
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A few months ago, the subject of one child policy came up. There is a thread where the Chinese posters collect all the posters are banners One Child Policy Office painted in the countryside. Some of them are pretty amusing. I will translate one funny ones. http://forum.xitek.com/thread-242330-1-1-1.html (the thread runs upside down so page 1 has all the newest posts.) whatever7 fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Aug 12, 2012 |
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Aug 12, 2012 19:41
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 “Pay attention to baby girl is pay attention to the future."  "Using ultrasound to find out to the gender of the fecus and selective abortion are strictly forbidden."  "Having a boy or a girl is the same" "Collect Dogs"  "You are one-child family, let me apply pension insurance for you." (I don't know what it is.)  "Party members and officers lead the way, one child policy is not hard."  Stablize nation's planned birth policy something something...  "Taking birth control ring inspection for other people is strictly forbidden."  There is only one earth, must control population growth!  "Giving birth without a birth license, one 1000 yuan fine. Going away to dodge birth control, 500-3000 yuan fine." (Given the amount this is probably very old, I believe you need marriage license to apply for birth license.)  "It's time for your medicine!" (It could be a graffiti, but I can't tell.) whatever7 fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Aug 13, 2012 |
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Aug 12, 2012 20:43
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Great Photos Whatever 7 Were these Photos taken in a specific Place or province or were they from all over? How big is Birth tourism? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-17838280
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Aug 12, 2012 21:09
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whatever7 posted:
"... create a harmonious and happy family. Build national..." and then there's a guy in the way and the angle makes it illegible. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Aug 12, 2012 |
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Aug 12, 2012 22:19
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^^^^The guy was taking a piss.Nevermind16 posted:Great Photos Whatever 7 No. They were taken all over. Xitek is a photography site. Basically government pushed messages have changed so much in the last 3-4 decades. The older the banners, the funnier they are. We are not talking about the crazy banners in the 60s. They have been all painted over. You have to go to boutique hip places (like Beijing 798) to find them. It used to be pretty big. There was no down side if you can afford it. Plus some city fine your second child born base on your income. Sometimes you can save money. But HK has put a stop to it. whatever7 fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Aug 13, 2012 |
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Aug 13, 2012 01:07
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Arglebargle III posted:"... create a harmonious and happy family. Build national..." and then there's a guy in the way and the angle makes it illegible. I just came back from a vacation to China including a long trip to Beijing, and I noticed that since I was there last the municipal govt has started putting up posters exalting the "Beijing Spirit", which apparently consists of patriotism, innovation, inclusiveness and virtue. What's that all about?
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Aug 13, 2012 01:12
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french lies posted:Create a national hygienic city (创建国家卫生[城]市) and build a something something homeland (建造美……家园). That last word doesn't mean family, it means home, or more commonly, your homeland. Posturing. Sending message to the other party fractions. The fight for Xi Jingpin's successor (6th gen) has just begun. BTW the Bo/Gu thing is not over. They use kidnap threat to explain Gu's motive. But the little brat went to Harvard a couple years before Heywood was killed. So that was obviously an attempt to cover something more sinister, that would make the government look bad. Also Gu stated on the 1-day show trail that Heywood was going to get ten of millions of kickback on a huge project that didn't go through. So the guy who tried to organize the project (forgot his name) probably gave up a lot of dirt.
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Aug 13, 2012 01:35
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Are you guys paying attention to the trial? I just can't bring myself to pay any attention because there's going to be no way to tell what is lies and what is true. The Chinese justice system has zero legitimacy. Oh right the trial is over already after one day, I forgot about that. Really there are just no words.
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Aug 13, 2012 08:33
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http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/08/13/unlivable_cities?page=full Interesting and very long article on China's cities. How true is it?
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Aug 17, 2012 19:39
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Warcabbit posted:http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/08/13/unlivable_cities?page=full Bitter failed expat whines and bitches about China for not being his paradise. Idolizes hipster trash as what a city is all about.
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Aug 17, 2012 21:03
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I wouldn't go that far, but it's not much more than a rambling series of complaints about Chinese cities. Most of them are just common grumbles that everyone puts up with. The odd thing here is that he felt like he had something new to say about them. He doesn't. The underlying complaints are things that the natives also aren't happy about, but when he tries to embellish it feels like bullshit. When he says he can't tell the difference between Chongqing and Changsha, it makes him sound like an out-of-touch snooty Beijing/Shanghai expat. And then he goes and confirms it: he lived in Beijing and Shanghai for his whole time here. Really the title of that article should be: China Is Still Poor: How Dare They?
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Aug 18, 2012 09:13
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Well to be fair Beijing is kind of a shithole and probably the worst city amongst the capitals of a major country.
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Aug 18, 2012 10:27
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Throatwarbler posted:Well to be fair Beijing is kind of a shithole and probably the worst city amongst the capitals of a major country. Not really if you know anything about the place. Sure, it's huge and massive, but it's easy (and cheap) to get around in, tons of stuff to do, loads of parks, etc. etc.
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Aug 18, 2012 10:47
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To be fair nothing; the problem with the article isn't that China's cities are really wonderful examples of civic genius, because they aren't. The problem is that he seems to be taking personal offense at the Chinese for being poor. It's as if he deserved better than to live in these dirty cities, in a nation that experienced its last major famine less than 50 years ago. Beijing is a notably poor capital city among the major states because China is a notably poor country among the major states.
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Aug 18, 2012 12:33
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Arglebargle III posted:To be fair nothing; the problem with the article isn't that China's cities are really wonderful examples of civic genius, because they aren't. The problem is that he seems to be taking personal offense at the Chinese for being poor. It's as if he deserved better than to live in these dirty cities, in a nation that experienced its last major famine less than 50 years ago. Sounds more like he's taking offense at the Chinese pretending that if they don't admit the fact that they are poor, they won't be anymore. That way they can just come up with some bullshit superiority complex to feel better about themselves instead of actually trying to address the issues that are impeding the further development of their nation.
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Aug 18, 2012 20:48
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Or it could be that after decades of real poverty people are enjoying having jobs and eating well. Who knows!
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Aug 19, 2012 02:30
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Ruckby posted:That way they can just come up with some bullshit superiority complex to feel better about themselves instead of actually trying to address the issues that are impeding the further development of their nation. National pride putting people in denial, for good and ill? One love baby   
Mc Do Well fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Aug 19, 2012 |
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Aug 19, 2012 02:40
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Ruckby posted:Sounds more like he's taking offense at the Chinese pretending that if they don't admit the fact that they are poor, they won't be anymore. That way they can just come up with some bullshit superiority complex to feel better about themselves instead of actually trying to address the issues that are impeding the further development of their nation. I don't think he said anything like this. The closest he comes is being offended that the Chinese build clumsy prestige projects and then have the gall to feel good about them. A superiority complex is something you must be reading into this.
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Aug 19, 2012 10:15
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These morons are destroying Japanese cars in anti Japan rallies again. Sigh. I thought only people in backward inland cities do it. No, even kids in ShenZhen.
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Aug 19, 2012 19:41
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whatever7 posted:
I don't know why you're shocked, anti-Japan sentiment is something that's drat near universal for many reasons, many terrible. Examples are abound like the constant stuff in Korea and the Japan Bashing of the 70's, 80's, and 90's in the US.  EDIT: I'm an idiot who over simplifies genocide and the allies coverup of Japanese warcrimes. LP97S fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Aug 20, 2012 |
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Aug 19, 2012 21:36
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LP97S posted:I don't know why you're shocked, anti-Japan sentiment is something that's drat near universal for many reasons, many terrible. Examples are abound like the constant stuff in Korea and the Japan Bashing of the 70's, 80's, and 90's in the US. ... Comparing East Asian anti-Japanese sentiment to US racism is almost insultingly simplistic. You are ignoring the vast elephant in the room of massive genocide Japanese perpetrated against Chinese and Koreans, for which in the opinion of most they never properly atoned for, in part due to the realpolitik motivated leniency exhibited by the US. Part of the whole business with the Pinnacle islands issue is that, in the view of the Chinese and Taiwanese, they were conceded by Japan following their surrender (Potsdam convention stipulated that "Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshū, Hokkaidō, Kyūshū, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine", 'we' including the Chinese), but that the US unilaterally decided to give the islands to the Japanese. EDIT: A lot of people think this is about oil and gas. From my understanding, it's not. The current known gas reserves in the area (if my sums are correct), are worth only 5-20 billion dollars, depending on the gas price. Which is tiny compared to China-Japan trade. Barring a *large* discovery in the future, this dispute is all about pride, not economics. Fangz fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Aug 19, 2012 |
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Aug 19, 2012 23:18
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Fangz posted:... EDIT: The original post is over simplistic and makes me look like a poo poo head, I'll try to explain it below. EDIT: I'm an idiot who over simplifies genocide and the allies coverup of Japanese warcrimes. LP97S fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Aug 20, 2012 |
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Aug 19, 2012 23:41
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LP97S posted:I understand those current issues, I also understand that the US flat out massacred hundreds of thousands of Japanese and even got ready for their genocide later in the war but still bitched about them getting off too easily. You're also ignoring the realpolitik of the Cold War where suddenly there was communist China, it wasn't the US "being lenient" it was the US "wanting to gently caress the Soviets". Like wise, the Japanese lost Formosa, the Korean Peninsula, and the Kurils from a time where the rest of the world was stealing poo poo left and right as well. The Japanese killed millions of Chinese. Is it not understandable there's massive anger about this? In the view of most East Asians, the appropriate punishment for Japan would be something similar to that meted out to the Germans - full scale deconstruction of the state, an analogue of cultural denazification, prosecution and execution of war criminals, and participation by they, the victims, in deciding Japan's fate. Relative to the standards of Germany, Japan indisputably got off lightly, and everyone in the region is understandably pissed off about it whenever Japan does anything related to its WWII actions. I'm not ignoring the realpolitik of the time. US's actions were pragmatic and sensible in the sense of its regional geopolitical goals. The point is however that the US had relative to the others little stake in the consequences, and in many ways set up this conflict by ignoring the grievances of people who have lost massively, and granting a mercy that was not its to grant.
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Aug 19, 2012 23:51
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You're right, I'm being a complete loving idiot about this. Sorry for casually linking two very unlike things.
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Aug 20, 2012 00:08
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Arglebargle III posted:I don't think he said anything like this. The closest he comes is being offended that the Chinese build clumsy prestige projects and then have the gall to feel good about them. A superiority complex is something you must be reading into this. Feeling good about a meaningless prestige project (ie one that makes them feel superior to other nations) while ignoring the systematic issues affecting large portions of the non-wealthy Chinese populace is the main theme of that article. This isn't a "China is poor they must be terrible people" thing, it is a "China has large-scale quality of life issues absent from other developing nations, indicating systematic administrative failings" thing. China is essentially growing into the America of Asia and that is something worthy of criticism, whether it makes you feel bad or not.
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Aug 20, 2012 01:06
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Ruckby posted:This isn't a "China is poor they must be terrible people" thing, it is a "China has large-scale quality of life issues absent from other developing nations, indicating systematic administrative failings" thing. Absent from which other developing nations? As far as I can tell, there's no such comparison within the article. EDIT: AFAICT, the article is really kinda off - it glides quickly (in the space of a single sentence, more or less) over all the aspects genuinely relevant to locals living there, to focus on a whole lot of snootiness about stuff relevant only to foreign tourists. Who cares if minor cities sport inferior facsimilies of Beijing? What does China's cultural unoriginality actually matter? The foreign traveller can think of the originals in Paris or elsewhere, can moan about there having been no Leonardo Da Vinci of China. But what do the locals care? Fangz fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Aug 20, 2012 |
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Aug 20, 2012 01:24
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Just to clarify, I (speaking as a China born American Citizen) called the Chinese protesters morons because they destroyed Japanese branded cars that's made in China, paid for by Chinese and Chinese insurance companies. They should have pointed the anger at the Chinese government who didn't allow any mainland fishing ship to go to the Diaoyu Island. These youth are so easily manipulated. A lot of them don't realize this is a semi official, government sanctioned protest as far as protest go just like most of past anti Japan rallies. You will never be able to organize an anti-anything else rally in China.
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Aug 20, 2012 02:13
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Ruckby posted:Feeling good about a meaningless prestige project (ie one that makes them feel superior to other nations) while ignoring the systematic issues affecting large portions of the non-wealthy Chinese populace is the main theme of that article. You're working really hard to defend a bad article. If the article had made a point like that it might have been worth reading, but it didn't. It was very unfocused. You're straining pretty hard to make one part in the middle about prestige projects that personally annoy the author a main thrust about systemic issues. Besides, who is supposed to feel bad and take action? Your sentence skips the subject. Is that random guy on the street who was impressed by his Neo-Classical style government building supposed to instead feel bad? And go change government policies somehow? You know what, don't answer that because this is all an argument you're building out of scraps from that dumb article. The part in parentheses is still all you, no one else mentioned anything about superiority.
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Aug 20, 2012 06:34
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If I remember correctly, the PRC has stated that it can't promise not to ask for further apologies if the Japanese make an official one, and this is why Japan has not apologized to China in an official capactiy. In contrast, S.Korea promised to not make any official protests, and Japan apologized. It seems to me that the PRC still wants a nationalist release valve for the next decade or so. I don't have a source handy, but I wrote a pretty long paper on the Senkaku dispute in post-Mao China, just don't have them handy at the moment.
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Aug 20, 2012 10:35
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This is incorrect. Japan *has* apologised several times for its crimes to the Chinese and Koreans, among others. The problem is that usually this is followed by some kind of event or action that suggests to the Chinese or the Koreans that the Japanese are insincere in their remorse. For example, the textbook controversies, offhand statements made by senior politicians, or visits to shrines containing war criminals.
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Aug 20, 2012 11:22
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Also the recent Nikon Gallery/comfort women exhibit bullshit. I have decided to stop buying Nikon equipment personally for a few years. As a photography hobbyist, it's very hard to do but I figure that's the only thing I can do to make a difference.
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Aug 20, 2012 14:52
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Arglebargle III posted:You're working really hard to defend a bad article. If the article had made a point like that it might have been worth reading, but it didn't. It was very unfocused. You're straining pretty hard to make one part in the middle about prestige projects that personally annoy the author a main thrust about systemic issues. Besides, who is supposed to feel bad and take action? Your sentence skips the subject. Is that random guy on the street who was impressed by his Neo-Classical style government building supposed to instead feel bad? And go change government policies somehow? You know what, don't answer that because this is all an argument you're building out of scraps from that dumb article. "That article" is the subject of the sentence. Do I really need to go over things like basic grammar and non-explicit arguments, or are you just throwing out anything you can to avoid accepting certain facts that may hurt your nationalistic feelings?
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Aug 20, 2012 17:11
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