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LibbyM posted:I always Perfered persona 4's "Beat this dungeon before a bunch of rainy days in a row" to the "Hey, there will be a big boss fight on the full moon, be strong enough". They were both a little ambiguous I guess, but I preferred semi ambiguous deadline to ambiguous required levels of strength. Persona 4's ambiguity left you with a full week's warning too so it wasn't too ambiguous. Well, that and Persona 4 didn't remove specific party members for certain days of grinding and even boss fights.
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Aug 23, 2012 02:37
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Nate RFB posted:Also to the people talking about the original idea for the killer's identity for P4: No, no, no, no. That was so loving stupid. SO loving stupid. It would have pretty much ruined the game. These words you keep saying, they are nonsense. The killer they stuck with was just fine (if not awesome). The killer they switched to was also "so loving stupid". Do you have anything to add to this other than "It's bad an I don't like it"? As it is now, there's no real impact behind the reveal. Going with their original choice, a whole bunch of stuff would have been more impactful. Adachi actually being the dumb sidekick leaking info, and Dojima's "SHUT UP ADACHI" actually being related to the cover-up. Pretty much every scene in the hospital being a result of his own hubris. The fact that he constantly suspects you of being involved with the murders after like half a year of No Murders would mean something. The real villain actually being important to the plot rather than having Scrappy Doo be the man behind the mask. I mean yeah, you'd have to rewrite all the dumb "THAT BITCH" segments after the reveal, but so what? Basically, they got it right the first time but it made people upset. Abloo bloo.
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Aug 23, 2012 02:48
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(P4 and a little bit of P3)It just doesn't fit his character at all, it would be extraordinary mood whiplash paramount to a complete rewrite of his character that would be hilariously out of place with how sudden it would be. I would have equated it to how awful and mind bogglingly dumb the reveal for one of the main villains in P3 was, a "Oh poo poo we need a villain uuuuuuh this guy!" The only, and I mean only way, that having Dojima as the killer would work would be if they completely rewrote him from the beginning to make it fit. Stuff like the Heirophant Link would have to go, for example. Could Adachi's motivations been explained a bit better? Perhaps (and it's definitely a big reason I'm looking foard to The Golden), but at the end of the day nothing about his reveal was incongruous with his actions or mannerisms. And besides, the guy just loving went with it. Who knew Johnny Yong Bosch had it in him? Besides maybe Kanji or the MC, Adachi was by far the most entertaining part of P4 for me.
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Aug 23, 2012 03:04
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Nate RFB posted:(P4 and a little bit of P3)It just doesn't fit his character at all, it would be extraordinary mood whiplash paramount to a complete rewrite of his character that would be hilariously out of place with how sudden it would be. I would have equated it to how awful and mind bogglingly dumb the reveal for one of the main villains in P3 was, a "Oh poo poo we need a villain uuuuuuh this guy!" The only, and I mean only way, that having Dojima as the killer would work would be if they completely rewrote him from the beginning to make it fit. Stuff like the Heirophant Link would have to go, for example. Thing is, they DID write him that way from the beginning. You might have to rewrite some of the Heirophant link stuff, but remember that Nanako being kidnapped was never the plan in the first place. I'm not seriously advocating that they just slap Dojima into the post-reveal Adachi dialogue and call it a day. They'd have to rewrite it to make it fit (or rather, NOT rewrite it so it's Adachi's fault instead). Instead of creepy sudden "THAT BITCH" Adachi, we'd have a bitter Dojima. Or something. Maybe he's bitter about his dead wife? That was a running thing with his S-Link too. The exact reasons are a pointless road to go down because we don't know how they wrote it originally, but the fact that it made people incredibly emotional about it means they did their job right the first time. By changing their ending to an emotionally weaker one because the original made people sad, they committed an act of artistic cowardice. In a game where the running theme is facing uncomfortable truths, that's almost poetry. edit: besides, if it's that upsetting the player could always go for the bad ending, where the world stays covered in fog. That would be fitting too. Spiffo fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Aug 23, 2012 |
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Aug 23, 2012 03:21
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First, I don't understand how I'm the only one who would go through Tartarus in one or two nights at a time, by the time you get to the gated section for each month you should be ready to fight the full moon boss for that month without too much effort. Yawn-B-Gones exist and are the most useful item in the game until you stop getting tired. Also the fact that Tartarus doesn't cut into your daytime Social Links like the inappropriately-named Midnight Channel (which you enter during mid-afternoon, hmm) makes it so much easier to complete. The Midnight Channel dungeons, on the other hand, suck to the point that I've played P4 exactly once through compared to FES and P3P twice each even though I like almost everything else in P4 more. Second, Ikutsuki's reveal was pretty lame at first blush, but after repeated plays it's only like that because they don't delve into Kirijo Group's involvement with everything enough to earn the "a-ha!" they were going for; it ends up totally out of left field as a result. That's literally my only complaint about the game's plot or anything else really. While I'm on that subject, just set Mitsuru to attack directly instead of acting freely in P3/P3FES and you can get around Marin Karin no problem. Third, the best JRPG ever is The World Ends With You 
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Aug 23, 2012 03:35
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Well, you could be like me and not realize at first that higher levels mean you can stay longer. I definitely screwed myself out of a few spare nights until I realized this. (Bearsona 4) Spiffo posted:I'm not seriously advocating that they just slap Dojima into the post-reveal Adachi dialogue and call it a day.  Also to me, having Dojima as the killer would have also implied that he was OK with having Nanako getting kidnapped and subsequently killed since that was the case with Adachi by proxy (not sure why it wouldn't be "part of the plan", the killer's whole MO was keeping tabs on the kidnappings so Adachi/Dojima would've been able to do something about that if they so chose). Which would have been completely nonsensical. If we're going far enough back to rewrite that sort of stuff, of course anything is game. I just can't look at the character of Dojima, from start to end as he currently exists, and see a space for such a reveal to be and not have it seem like an rear end pull.
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Aug 23, 2012 03:41
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The problem with Adachi being the killer has been stated time and again, there is no impact and he's obviously just the killer because they needed someone to be the killer. Beyond the obvious (The figure in the fog), Adachi was never meant to be the original killer which is why he's not even hinted at being the killer until the end of the game and by then you've already ousted him as the killer by your deductions of genre savviness. There's literally nothing about Adachi that's implacable more than anyone one else. You could say that him leaking information was suspicious, but it's just as possible he's being stupid and not doing his job properly and given this is Inaba where incompetence sort of exists in massive droves in its adult citizens, this is not a hard pill to swallow. I'm not going to say that Ryotaro should've been the killer, but god drat it would make a lot more sense and have far more of an impact than the random schmuck who suddenly shifts tones the second you catch him in the TV World when he shows absolutely no signs of this prior to it, not even a small subtle hint like Izanami got. I love Adachi, but dammit I would love it if him being the killer wasn't so obviously forced and random or they had chosen someone else so it didn't seem that way. Also yeah, Spiffy's not really saying Ryotaro should just be slapped on the end, that would be dumb.
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Aug 23, 2012 03:41
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vanov posted:First, I don't understand how I'm the only one who would go through Tartarus in one or two nights at a time, by the time you get to the gated section for each month you should be ready to fight the full moon boss for that month without too much effort. Yawn-B-Gones exist and are the most useful item in the game until you stop getting tired. Also the fact that Tartarus doesn't cut into your daytime Social Links l Dungeons in persona 4 are the same way though. You can beat every dungeon in persona 4 in a couple days, only going on rainy days too, which means its not really cutting into social links (how many social links can you do during day time on a rainy day in persona 3? The Drama club social link is the only one I know for sure) The primary difference between persona 3 and 4 dungeons is that in persona 4 there are only as many floors as you need, fully explore every floor and fight the enemies, and you'll be strong enough for the boss. (with the exception of maybe the yukiko fight, I personally had to grind a tiny bit for that one) Even if you do have to grind, you don't have to go through a dozen extra floors, you just go back to the last one and grind. In persona 3 the dungeons are WAY LONGER than they need to be, which lead to me skipping entire floors, just running past everything and tagging the stairs. It felt unnecessary, I would have much preferred if in persona 3 there was many less floors, but you had to fully explore every floor to be strong enough. quote:Third, the best JRPG ever is The World Ends With You Hard to dispute a fact like that.
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Aug 23, 2012 03:44
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Persona 4 If Dojima was the killer then Nanako would have NO ONE and you guys are all terrible why do you hate Nanako
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Aug 23, 2012 03:46
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vanov posted:Also the fact that Tartarus doesn't cut into your daytime Social Links like the inappropriately-named Midnight Channel (which you enter during mid-afternoon, hmm) makes it so much easier to complete. The Midnight Channel is not the same thing as the TV World you explore. The Midnight Channel is the reflection/recording of the events that take place in the TV World. As its name implies, it's only on at midnight (and also only on during rainy days, if memory serves.) The TV world is just always there. The crew chooses to explore it during the afternoon because Junes is open I guess?
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Aug 23, 2012 03:46
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Nate RFB posted:(Bearsona 4) Nobody knows who the current victim is until after they're inside the TV. Not even the real killer. The fact that the next victim turns out to be Nanako isn't revealed until the night of the kidnapping. Not sure why Namatame knew though, I think they mentioned something about it being harder to see people who are close to you. So yeah, it definitely wouldn't be part of the plan and the too-late reveal of Nanako being the next victim would be like mega "Oh my god what have I done" stuff.
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Aug 23, 2012 03:47
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vanov posted:Third, the best JRPG ever is The World Ends With You I'll still step up to bat and say that Arc the Lad 2 was solid plot-wise like so many other games were not.
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Aug 23, 2012 03:47
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Spiffo posted:By changing their ending to an emotionally weaker one because the original made people sad, they committed an act of artistic cowardice. In a game where the running them is facing uncomfortable truths, that's almost poetry. Seconding this. How much more uncomfortable of a truth do you get than your father-figure being a murderer? It also really throws the incredibly stupid "Guess the killer from this long list!" scene in a much better light. Rather than having to guess who the killer is almost essentially at random since the game's still mostly set up to point to someone very close to you, someone like Dojima, having to suddenly guess Adachi is dumb. But if it's increasingly obvious by that point, it's no longer "guess the criminal" it's "do you admit to yourself that someone you care about is a murderer, or do you insist on blaming other people?" I mean, hell, it was so bad as it is they felt the need to add in a new social link because as is there were so few real interactions with Adachi he just doesn't come to most players' minds when it pops up. And I mean, there's nothing wrong with video games being uncomfortable morally, either. If the gaming community is going to stick by the claim that video games can be an art form, then don't we need to accept that not all of that art is going to be Bob Ross happy-trees? It's a game about murder. It should be uncomfortable. Certainly that's how the NPCs treat it (Adachi vomiting in the beginning, the entire Hanged Man line, etc.), but that never really comes across to the players ourselves. I think the original killer would have done a much better job of making the player feel the same way the characters do.
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Aug 23, 2012 03:50
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I have to say though, a game as Bob Ross sounds very appealing and I would certainly buy it... or hell, just Bob Ross as a Persona would be fantastic.
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Aug 23, 2012 03:52
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Spiffo posted:Nobody knows who the current victim is until after they're inside the TV. Not even the real killer. The fact that the next victim turns out to be Nanako isn't revealed until the night of the kidnapping. Not sure why Namatame knew though, I think they mentioned something about it being harder to see people who are close to you. So yeah, it definitely wouldn't be part of the plan and the too-late reveal of Nanako being the next victim would be like mega "Oh my god what have I done" stuff.
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Aug 23, 2012 03:53
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One other thing about this theory: (Persona 4) Adachi and Yu both got their power after entering the town, and I think Namatame as well, so Dojima doesn't make sense from that regard. Honestly, I could've seen the culprit being Yosuke because he's the only other person you know that comes into town from another city.
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Aug 23, 2012 03:55
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Spiffo posted:Nobody knows who the current victim is until after they're inside the TV. Not even the real killer. Except, they do. It's even explained that they appear on the Midnight Channel because it's a reflection of collective unconscious of all of Inaba. Both the Scooby Gang AND Namatame mistake it for the killer's intent initially. E; Heck, this even addresses your next point. Namatame kidnaps and throws Nanako into Mayonaka because she appeared on the midnight channel prior. That happened because of the mini-interview she was given. E2; oh, that's not even needed to point out the issue with this though. Everything from Yukiko onwards; just look at the antics with Kanji and Rise. After they appear on the Midnight Channel but before they're thrown into Mayonaka. Lotus Aura fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Aug 23, 2012 |
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Aug 23, 2012 03:57
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Nate RFB posted:It's possible, but the impression from Adachi at least seemed that he knew everything that was going down at all times (hence why he kept trying to sabotage the teams' efforts), and would've been aware thanks to Nanako appearing on TV once before. But I concede that this could be fairly easily rewritten. He knew what was going on because he was involved in the case. He never tried to sabotage your efforts at all - if anything, Dojima is more suspicious because he keeps trying to figure out if you're "up to anything", making sure that you're not getting involved with any cases or weird stuff, even long after the weird stuff was over. I don't see why Adachi/Dojima would be aware of Nanako being on the midnight channel any quicker than MC. It's purposely hazy (although again, for some reason Namatame could figure it out). In fact if it weren't for the fact that Adachi picked up the phone when Namatame called, he wouldn't know about the midnight channel at all. Cityinthesea posted:One other thing about this theory: (Persona 4) Adachi and Yu both got their power after entering the town, and I think Namatame as well, so Dojima doesn't make sense from that regard. Honestly, I could've seen the culprit being Yosuke because he's the only other person you know that comes into town from another city. This is true, but I imagine they had that covered in their original script.
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Aug 23, 2012 03:58
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Cityinthesea posted:One other thing about this theory: (Persona 4) Adachi and Yu both got their power after entering the town, and I think Namatame as well, so Dojima doesn't make sense from that regard. Honestly, I could've seen the culprit being Yosuke because he's the only other person you know that comes into town from another city. That's really easy to fix with minimal writing, though. Just have the Dojimas having just moved there relatively recently, perhaps getting away from their old town to help Nanako leave a place full of memories of her dead mom. It also explains why they just have an empty room sitting around, they just moved in recently and hadn't really found a use for it yet when you get tossed at them. Or maybe there was some other criteria used to determine who got Persona'd. It's not like the reason of 'people who moved in recently' actually affects anything else in the game.
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Aug 23, 2012 04:01
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Is there any evidence that Persona 4 was supposed to be different, or is everyone just talking out of their rear end?
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Aug 23, 2012 04:02
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Spiffo posted:
It's actually directly mentioned- the clarity of the Midnight Channel has to do with how close you are to the person shown. I don't remember exactly how it changes, but it's explicitly said that people see the person at different clarities. It's somewhere near the end, I think maybe past the false ending.
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Aug 23, 2012 04:03
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Spiffo posted:He never tried to sabotage your efforts at all What? At the very least, he created a scenario in which Rise could easily be kidnapped by targeting the stalker.
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Aug 23, 2012 04:04
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What P4 needed was an ending just like Clue's. That would've fixed everything.
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Aug 23, 2012 04:05
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Krad posted:What P4 needed was an ending just like Clue's. That would've fixed everything. It needed Tim Curry?
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Aug 23, 2012 04:05
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Krad posted:What P4 needed was an ending just like Clue's. That would've fixed everything. Or just literally have everything not dungeon crawling be exactly like the board game. Sex_Ferguson posted:It needed Tim Curry? I say this about every piece of media I play/watch/listen.
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Aug 23, 2012 04:06
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MrAristocrates posted:What? At the very least, he created a scenario in which Rise could easily be kidnapped by targeting the stalker. Didn't the investigation team see him first and then chase after him? Saying he could be the killer?
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Aug 23, 2012 04:13
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FINALmasa posted:Is there any evidence that Persona 4 was supposed to be different, or is everyone just talking out of their rear end? It's in a developer interview, supposedly. I know I've seen 2ch discussing it before as if it was gospel, too, though of course how reliable they are is always up for discussion.
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Aug 23, 2012 04:21
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Dammit Adachi (posts)! Seriously though Dojima being the killer was one of my hypotheses until Nanako happened, but even prior I was like "that would be waaaay too loving dark, there is no way." I sincerely doubt that they would have been able to localize that version and get an M rating, but then again Silent Hill exists so who knows
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Aug 23, 2012 04:36
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Spiffo posted:if anything, Dojima is more suspicious because he keeps trying to figure out if you're "up to anything", making sure that you're not getting involved with any cases or weird stuff, even long after the weird stuff was over. That doesn't make any sense. He's a police officer. It's part of his job to make sure that untrained civilians, especially minors, aren't interfering in an official police investigation. Not to mention that it would lead to an extremely awkward and uncomfortable conversation with Yu's parents if something were to happen to him because Dojima didn't try to stop him from getting involved. "So hey, your son decided to play amateur vigilante detective, tried to catch a serial killer, and wound up dead because I was too negligent as both his uncle and a police officer to stop him. My bad."
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Aug 23, 2012 04:37
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W.T. Fits posted:That doesn't make any sense. He's a police officer. It's part of his job to make sure that untrained civilians, especially minors, aren't interfering in an official police investigation. There is no reason to believe that he's involved in the case in the first place, and each month that passes uneventfully makes his suspicions even more ridiculous. Whether it's Yukiko taking you to the textile shop her mom uses, or you going to go see an idol, you are doing absolutely nothing suspicious but he just has to keep... prying... hoping you'll slip up and reveal something or whatever. At no point do you involve yourself with the case at all outside of the TV stuff he (apparently) knows nothing about. edit: and of course this suspicion enters the realm of the insane if you do his social link Spiffo fucked around with this message at 04:51 on Aug 23, 2012 |
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Aug 23, 2012 04:46
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Ravana posted:That's really easy to fix with minimal writing, though. Just have the Dojimas having just moved there relatively recently, perhaps getting away from their old town to help Nanako leave a place full of memories of her dead mom. If you take it in this direction, then you could have written it so that Dojima and Nanako had moved from the city after the death of her mother, but Dojima's pursuing his vendetta against the criminal who ran down his wife. If you rewrote Namatame and Misuzu Hiiragi as the ones who killed his wife in the car and he found out, then he would have a reason to kill her at the Amagi Inn, and then Saki for finding the body. At the same time, Namatame silently enters town to escape the media pressure for his affair, and the game proper starts. So when the scooby gang discovers that it's Namatame who's been putting people inside, Dojima would have double the reason to pursue him, once for his wife, and once for his daughter. If his wounds had been less incapacitating, then after interrogating Namatame, Dojima would try to attack him in some way, heading deeper into a revenge-filled downward spiral. My bit of writing has some holes in it, but it would have been more tragic and morally grey to write a story like this than I'm just a detective dootdoo, BITCHESSSS" that the current story goes through.
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Aug 23, 2012 04:46
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vanov posted:Seriously though Dojima being the killer was one of my hypotheses until Nanako happened, but even prior I was like "that would be waaaay too loving dark, there is no way." I sincerely doubt that they would have been able to localize that version and get an M rating, but then again Silent Hill exists so who knows I don't think that would have been a huge problem.
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Aug 23, 2012 04:48
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Spiffo posted:Whether it's Yukiko taking you to the textile shop her mom uses, or you going to go see an idol, you are doing absolutely nothing suspicious but he just has to keep... prying... hoping you'll slip up and reveal something or whatever. At no point do you involve yourself with the case at all outside of the TV stuff he (apparently) knows nothing about. He's a small town parent watching over his sister's kid. Of course going to be prying into what your doing since you keep adding the disappearing kids to your posse. He's making sure you're not getting into poo poo. That one actually makes sense.
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Aug 23, 2012 04:51
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TurnipFritter posted:I don't think that would have been a huge problem. Yeah really, if DDS and Drakengard can get an M when one has cannibalism and carnivorous tits and the other has... a host of ridiculously weird poo poo, then I think P4 can manage something that dark and still get an M Rating.
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Aug 23, 2012 04:58
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Sex_Ferguson posted:Yeah really, if DDS and Drakengard can get an M when one has cannibalism and carnivorous tits and the other has... a host of ridiculously weird poo poo, then I think P4 can manage something that dark and still get an M Rating. Like I said, Silent Hill exists, so I'm most likely wrong.
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Aug 23, 2012 05:04
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My girlfriend just asked me what the most hardcore Persona was and I can't think of one. What Persona do you guys think is the toughest/darkest/heavy metalist?
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Aug 23, 2012 05:14
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Mara; don't listen to anyone else.
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Aug 23, 2012 05:16
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Do you mean game or do you mean glorified spell effect that takes the form of a mythological entity? Either way the answer is Yamaoka.  Deal with it.
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Aug 23, 2012 05:20
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Mara is a giant penis in a chariot and also it spits fire. It is clearly the most hardcore of all Persona. There are other persona that are weird or ridiculous or come close (like Satan) but Mara is just the most magical.
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Aug 23, 2012 05:20
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Meowjesty posted:Mara is a giant penis in a chariot and also it spits fire. It is clearly the most hardcore of all Persona. "Magical" is certainly a word for Mara.
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Aug 23, 2012 05:29
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