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Slung Blade posted:If your solid wooden wheels are the only shock absorbing component on your theoretical cart, I feel extremely sorry for your theoretical spine. I think what you're not taking into account is weight, and specifically how much stronger iron is to how much heavier it is. I'm not sure that compressive strength is the best metric, but I don't know what is, so I'm using it same as you. I used a value of 60 Mpa for ash and 200Mpa for iron. Ash has a density of 650kg/m^3 and a compressive strength of 60Mpa (your source). Dividing the compressive strength by the density yields a value of .092 Mpa per kg/m^3. Doing the same for Iron, using a compressive strength of 200 Mpa and dividing by the density of 7870 kg/m^3 gives a value of .025 Mpa per kg/m^3. Iron is something like 3 times as strong as ash, but it weighs ten times as much. Your strength-to-weight ratio is less than a third that of Ash. I'm not an engineer so I'm not sure we shouldn't be using some other value besides compressive strength. However, this confirms what I was thinking- Ash weighs a tenth of what iron does, and is roughly a third as strong. It's much lighter. Add to that the fact that a wagon that is too heavy is much worse than useless (you'll burn up your animals trying to pull it) and that ash was clearly strong enough for the job. Also, wood is easier to work with simpler and more common tools, much cheaper, and probably easier to source- trees grow everywhere, iron mines are scarce. I don't know what an iron wheel strong enough to be useful would weigh, but by the math it'd be ~3 times as heavy as a comparable wood wheel with iron rim. Where weight=effort put out by your animals, and the more your animals need to eat, the less you can go in a day before you have to let them eat (not to mention there might only be a limited amount of feed available), the best wagon wheels are where they are as light as possible while being just strong enough for the job. I've read lots of stories of american settlers crossing the plains, and wagons being too heavy and having to be lightened is a common theme. I'd bet iron wheels got made and tried, but were just too drat heavy. Uncle Enzo fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Aug 21, 2012 |
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Aug 21, 2012 14:25
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SmokeyXIII posted:Vacuums on fire are really neat to see, they shoot fire out the exhaust port! Definitely true, although in my experience using a non-ferrous blade on something like aluminum is pretty safe, those chips are cool enough you can catch them in your hand, especially non-solid aluminum like pipe or extrusions. And of course, there are alternative vacuuming methods, like a two-stage or something.
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Aug 21, 2012 14:29
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I tried it with the shop-vac hooked up to the vaccuum port but it didn't seem to make much of a difference at all. Might just run it with the vaccuum off because I'll be doing a shitload of sweeping and chip-herding afterwards regardless.
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Aug 21, 2012 14:58
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Prof. Ann Mary Ann posted:Does anyone here have experience with making dies? I'd like to know if what I have in mind would be wildly expensive. I do make dies, but what you are technically talking about is mold making. You can do a one piece dump mold pretty easily. It would take forever to carve all of those little pieces. It would be a pain in the rear end to cast, demold and recast, and would take a lot of time. It's pretty messy too. I try not to do mold making in the house. Casting plastic can be pretty expensive. It's also unlikely that you would be able to make money if you are only casting confetti.
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Aug 21, 2012 16:13
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I've been looking around for anvils on craigslist, and I was wondering if you more experienced guys could give me some input: $140 for 35lb anvil. It looks to be in good condition, plus it comes with the stump! http://houston.craigslist.org/tls/3218289720.html $50 for a 50lb anvil, although it looks like cast iron. Hard to tell, maybe someone has a better eye? http://houston.craigslist.org/for/3209447212.html I'm excited to see what evilhat has cooked up, but I was just keeping an eye out for anvils on CL.
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Aug 21, 2012 16:25
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areyoucontagious posted:I've been looking around for anvils on craigslist, and I was wondering if you more experienced guys could give me some input: A decent wrought iron and steel anvil, in most markets, should run about $2-3/lb. If it has raised lettering it is cast, and if it is cast then it absolutely must have a steel face or it is worthless as anything but an anchor or a place to straighten nails. edit: looked up Cliff Carroll; a new anvil of that size retails for $160, which suggests that it may have a steel face, but it's still really small. It is probably alright for getting started, but it's better to wait till you can find a 100lber, as you'll outgrow the 35lber pretty quickly. Dongsmith fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Aug 21, 2012 |
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Aug 21, 2012 17:11
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Uncle Enzo posted:I think what you're not taking into account is weight, and specifically how much stronger iron is to how much heavier it is. I'm not sure that compressive strength is the best metric, but I don't know what is, so I'm using it same as you. I used a value of 60 Mpa for ash and 200Mpa for iron. I understand that they would be a lot heavier, but I think you guys are all not paying attention to just how difficult it is to make a wooden wheel with an iron tire. They didn't have arc welders, OA welding wasn't common until the 20th century. You have to make the tire by forge welding a band of iron that is three inches across and thicker than 3/8ths. This is a HUGE UNDERTAKING. I've never seen anything that big forge welded in person. I've seen some really old film footage of it, but it's like a 10 man job (granted this was for a really big and thick piece of chain or an anchor or something). To do a wheel, you need at least three men. Two to lift the tire once it's hot enough, and another to strike it. They have to be strong, and they have to be quick to get it out of the fire an onto the anvil before the heat is lost. Once welded, you have to get rid of the bump of the scarfed joint, which may change the dimensions of the tire enough to make it useless for the wooden wheel you just painstakingly made. Compared to just measuring, cutting, rolling, and then jointing it with a riveted backing plate, it's an extremely long and expensive process with many steps that could ruin the quality of the finished product. Plus, if they had gone to all iron wheels earlier, we almost certainly would have developed tensioned spoke wheels earlier, which is where wrought iron's strength lies. (the wiki page I linked earlier says the tensile strength is the same as the compressive which seems... really wrong, so I don't know what the gently caress) areyoucontagious: That 55 pounder looks like cast iron, the horn is flat, and the face is rusty and pitted like crazy. Ignore that one. The 35 pounder actually looks like it's a decently made piece, but man, 35 pounds is TINY. That's more like a really heavy jeweler's anvil, or a really light portable farrier's anvil without all the neat gizmos those guys have on theirs.
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Aug 21, 2012 17:37
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Slung Blade posted:I understand that they would be a lot heavier, but I think you guys are all not paying attention to just how difficult it is to make a wooden wheel with an iron tire. I understand that they're terribly difficult to make. But as I said in my post, an iron wheel of identical strength to an ash wheel weighs three times as much. That is a massive and totally unacceptable weight increase. Remember too that a wagon that is heavier moves slower and can carry less weight; your animals can only pull so much load. A wagon that moves slower is less useful and can even be dangerous- several pioneer parties crossing the American Great Plains got stuck out in the winter and had extremely heavy casualties. A heavier wagon means you need more and stronger animals to move it, meaning you have to move slower and lose time hitching/unhitching, caring for them, feeding/watering them and letting them rest. So it also moves less hours per day. It also means you can't carry as much payload, since more of the animal's pulling capacity is used up just pulling the wagon itself. Being able to carry less load, moving slower, and putting more strain on more expensive animals are not minor tradeoffs, they completely kill the practicality of the idea. Also iron has a very high tensile strength, that's why we make suspension bridges out of it, where weight is less of a concern.
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Aug 21, 2012 18:03
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First anvil looks like the real deal but not the second. 35 pounds is pretty drat light for a forging anvil but it depends on what you're doing- if you're only working with light stock, you know, bending hooks out of 1/4" rod or whatever, it'll do ya just fine, but you'll probably run into "it just doesn't have enough goddamn mass" sooner or later. I use a 66 lb. scaled-down Austrian anvil and I've already hit that limit- sledgework starts moving the anvil more than is acceptable.
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Aug 21, 2012 18:19
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Slung Blade posted:I understand that they would be a lot heavier, but I think you guys are all not paying attention to just how difficult it is to make a wooden wheel with an iron tire. If you do the same mind-blowingly difficult forge weld a hundred times it stops being mind-blowingly difficult and simply becomes routine. Blacksmiths did a wide variety of work, but something like welding a tire or welding a new bit on an axehead or fixing some chain would have been very commonplace. If you make a bookshelf or two in your garage and then go read about barrel-making it is hard to imagine that anyone could have made a barrel that would hold water and still be affordable, but they did! I'm blown away by the tiny welds that Appalachian gunsmiths could achieve, but they did a heck of a lot of them. Remember the guild system and apprenticeships; by the time you turned 18 or 19, you had been watching a master for 7 years and been doing actual work for probably 5 or so, full time. A modern adult with a job has maybe 4 hours of practical free time in a day, and if you spend it all at the forge then after a decade you might (might) be at the level of a fresh 1800s wheelwright journeyman if you're pretty gifted, and at that point your impression of the process's difficulty may be a lot different than it is today. Dongsmith fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Aug 21, 2012 |
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Aug 21, 2012 18:20
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IRT the wheel discussion: Consider that the modern situation confronting the average smith is the complete inverse of how it traditionally has been- he has a paucity of very high-quality materials and equipment available, but individuals meaningfully-skilled in utilizing those materials are extraordinarily rare in comparison. For most of history, I'd be willing to bet a skilled smith with a properly-equipped workshop for large work like tire-bands is easier to get a hold of than the equivalent to the energy that would have to be expended to make and shape the additional iron. You run into the same trend in, say, weapon design- look at the technique of making a wrought-iron core for a sword/axe, splitting the edge, inserting a steel bit, forge-welding the entire seam, etc. That seems insane to me but they did it as a matter of course, because they couldn't afford to dump that much charcoal into making enough steel to make entire weapons out of. It wouldn't surprise me if the same thought process applies to wagon wheels.
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Aug 21, 2012 18:26
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Alright alright, you all make excellent points. Let me just sum up my thoughts on the whole thing. Pro: Easier to build Easier to fix if anything breaks Won't rot (sure it'll rust but wrought is pretty corrosion resistant) Won't dry out to the point where the tire falls off Requires fewer specialized tools to create / maintain Con: Heavy More expensive to make in the first place Literally stabs your oxen in the lungs
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Aug 21, 2012 21:52
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areyoucontagious posted:I've been looking around for anvils on craigslist, and I was wondering if you more experienced guys could give me some input: 35lbs is tiny. I don't think I could work on something that small. 50lbs is still pretty small. I wouldn't be able to tell what material it is made from by looking at it. If you get a chance to look at it bring a hammer with you and see if it rings when you strike the face. Your hammer should also bounce back.
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Aug 22, 2012 06:05
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ArtistCeleste posted:35lbs is tiny. I don't think I could work on something that small. 50lbs is still pretty small. I wouldn't be able to tell what material it is made from by looking at it. If you get a chance to look at it bring a hammer with you and see if it rings when you strike the face. Your hammer should also bounce back. If it has raised letters, at least part of the anvil is cast. That may mean cast iron (which is bad, unless it's something like a Fisher Norris with a steel plate) or cast steel (which is great, and for which you will certainly pay handsomely if the seller knows what he or she has). In the case of all anvils, wrought or cast, rebound is the best general indicator of the anvil's quality and state. A ball-peen allowed to drop (lightly) on the face should bounce back to ~80% of its original height. If the edges are kinda junky but the rebound is good, you can either deal with it or get the edges hardfaced with welding rod and ground to profile; either way you'll have a good time hammering on it. If the edges are good and there's no rebound, it's either pure cast iron or hosed or both, and you'll waste most of your energy just picking the hammer up after each blow. That said, I wouldn't necessarily walk away from a good wrought anvil with a small area of de-lamination, but I also wouldn't pay full market for it.
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Aug 23, 2012 00:18
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I made a thing for the wife: I hope she doesn't see this post before I give it to her. 
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Aug 23, 2012 00:26
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I wasn't sure if this thread was the place for this sort of stuff, but it seems it came up back in February and was accepted then so... I started into metalwork a long time ago making chainmail, and have since done a bit of welding, forge work, and jewlery. These days I mostly make chainmail bags and jewelry. I would love to do more welding and forge work, but I live in an apartment, so that needs to wait until I have more space for tools. Here are some photos of chainmail bags I have made:  This one is stainless steel, lined with a blue and red velvet bag. The large ring in the side is an aluminum spacer ring from an old dead harddrive.  This one is stainless steel square wire, with punched rings forming the topmost row. Lining is upholstery cloth and velvet.  Galvanized steel and bronze. It got a nice patina over the months since I made it.   Front and Back of a dice bag I made for a friend. The front is anodized aluminum and bright aluminum. The back is stainless steel. I sell these at a local gaming shop, but not very often because I only find time to make one every month or so. I have a few pics of jewelery as well, if anyone is interested.
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Aug 23, 2012 03:48
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TerminalSaint posted:I made a thing for the wife: drat that's pretty. Copper sheet petals? Armorer: awesome bags, how do you make the rings?
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Aug 23, 2012 05:43
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Thanks! Yeah, copper petals, the rest is steel.
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Aug 23, 2012 05:48
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TerminalSaint posted:Thanks! Yeah, copper petals, the rest is steel. Nice friggin job man. How'd you make it? Various layers cut from sheet in different patterns and "riveted" together?
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Aug 23, 2012 06:48
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Exactly. As always I regret neglecting to take progress photos. I started by forge welding a piece of half-round around some 3/8" round stock about a half inch from the end to form a hip. Next I cut out 4 pieces from copper flashing that looked like '60s cartoon flowers, and a sort of star from 22 gauge steel for the sepal. The edges got throughly peened with a cross peen hammer to give them texture. Next I cupped the petals somewhat (used a soup spoon as a swage block) and shaped the sepal with some vice work and cold forging. After that they all got stacked on the hip and I peened down the round stock to rivet them in place. Then it was just a matter of shaping the petals. I used round needle nose pliers so as not to mar the petals too much. The leaf I cut from 22 gauge steel, notched the edges, then peened and chiseled the veins. That I soldered on because I'm rubbish at forge welding and I was on a deadline. You can actually buy steel petal kits from a number of different places online, but I wanted to go with copper instead of steel so it would stand out some. Also I don't have a hot enough torch to conveniently shape steel petals, while copper can easily be manipulated cold.
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Aug 23, 2012 07:26
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I do maille stuff too. I started off doing maille because it cost 20 bucks to get going with. Nowadays I mostly do what I'd call "high-end base metal jewellery"- bracelets and necklaces and stuff in copper and copper alloys, especially nickel-silver (because nickel-silver rules, it's like baby sterling silver). Love to do more actual sterling work, but silver's expensive and *moths flutter out of out-turned pockets* (Although on that note, I've been thinking of ordering some fine silver one-ounce ingots to a local bank, a thing you can do in Canada, and directly cold-forging them into projects an ingot apiece) anyways    e: And oh yeah, progress photos rule.  The steps I take in cold-forging pewter bars for rings. Very labour-intensive but I Don't Make What You'd Call 'Smart' Decisions a lot of the time Ambrose Burnside fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Aug 23, 2012 |
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Aug 23, 2012 16:16
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That is nice work! I particularly like the two-tone use of metals in the second image to highlight the pattern. I need to take more photos (progress photos included) but here are a few that I have on hand of jewlery. Sorry about the odd (large) sizes. I don't have photoshop on hand right now to resize them.  This is made from titanium rings with a blackened sterling silver clasp  This is mixed base metals, the outer rows are linked through a piece of punched leather to keep it from irritating the skin when worn. The "clasp" (not shown) is a section where I integrated rubber rings (from The Ring Lord) for stretch.  This one is bigger and heavier than the picture conveys. Sterling silver, all the links soldered closed. The large ring the center was made from some square wire, soldered and hammered out a bit. The chain is over 1/2" thick, and the whole thing weighs a little over 4 ozt.  This is some of what I am starting to play around with now. This is a sterling silver locket, assembled from scratch (sheet and wire). It is about the size of a half dollar. It was a gift for my sister, so the etching is based on a photo of my 2 year old niece, and the garnet at the top is my niece's birth stone. It holds a 32GB microSD card on one side inside, and a photo on the other. The hinge was quite a bit more difficult to get right than I expected, and is not very well aligned. Edit: spelling armorer fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Aug 23, 2012 |
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Aug 23, 2012 16:55
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Today I spent six hours bending three pieces of brass wire to fit a template. Tomorrow: five hours cutting cutting steel U-channel into 2mm slices with a hacksaw. This apprenticeship is medieval and fun.
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Aug 23, 2012 23:24
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I just want to thank you guys so much. I actually got to beat on some metal today, and it was a lot of fun. I built the forge out of a brake drum and firebrick, using a sheet metal base on top of concrete blocks. The tuyere is just 1.5" plumbing pipe, and I use the shopvac for an air source.   My "anvil" is just a 6" vise bolted onto a workbench I built last weekend. I went from no craft skills to building a bunch of poo poo all at once!  My hammer is just a cheap 3lb from home depot. Plastic handles, woo! My goal today was to turn a piece of round stock into a punch. I started out just hammering around the end, tapering it into a point:  Blunt end, pre-hammering   heating the metal  End of day results My goal for next time is to cut the steel down to usable size, upset the other end, and then file it down nicely. After that I'll harden the metal and it will be good to go (I think). Anyway, you guys are all super cool, and I owe you a beer next time you are in Austin. Bonus: Me, being a sissy and grimacing at the heat: 
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Aug 26, 2012 23:47
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Awesome. I still remember the first time I pulled a glowing piece of steel out of a fire and beat it with a hammer, it's a good feeling. It can be a bit labor intensive, but you may want to break up your charcoal into smaller pieces before getting started. I find it gives a more even and higher heat. I usually try to make them about walnut sized. And definitely keep your eyes open for an affordable anvil or a piece of railroad rail, a good heavy anvil makes a big difference.
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Aug 27, 2012 00:11
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I hope you won't mind some unsolicited advice about your punch. A taper has 4 sides. When hammering you want to alternate blows between two 90 degree faces, this will give you a more even taper. Establish your taper at the end, and then work your way back. You can jam the hot tip of your punch into the anvil face to even out the tip. When the tip is uneven you get a cold shut, and that will be very problematic in a tool. Properly annealing and then tempering the punch will help you more than upsetting the end. Then end will upset as you use it. A punch usually has a flat tip. If you drive that through a piece of steel it will work, but there will be a lot more tearing and deformation. I can tell you a lot more, but this should help you get started. Have fun and happy smithing. Edit: Some punches I made recently.   ArtistCeleste fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Aug 27, 2012 |
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Aug 27, 2012 03:52
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I was trying to replicate this thing I saw on youtube where the guy did 6 sides; obviously it didn't work as well with mine. Should I try to reform it with 4 sides?
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Aug 27, 2012 04:44
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Six sides is hard to do, especially when starting out. Always start with 4 sides, it's easier and you will have more control. Once you get 4 even sides you can add the sixth if you want by flattening on one of the diamonds. It's still difficult because by concentrating the force on only one side of the diamond you will make it flatter on two opposing sides. You can compensate by blows to the other 4 sides, but you can guess that it can get out of control pretty quickly. If you keep 4 sides than you have a square punch. You can also flatten on both corners (on the diamond as it's called) and get an octagon punch. If you knock down the corners of the octagon you now have 16 corners and it's becoming round. An this point you can knock down the high spots and make a cylindrical punch. As far as your punch goes, I would keep your taper. File, grind, cut or sand the end so it its flat and even. If it is uneven all around square the tip again before establishing your final shape. I hope this is comprehensible.
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Aug 27, 2012 04:55
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Six-sided sounds like hex bar, 'cause there's no reason to try hand-forging a hex bar (it'd be just about impossible to do neatly without top and bottom swages), but it's a type of stock you run into fairly frequently (especially if you're, say, using bent-outta-shape prying bars for stock, like I have in the past). A four-sided square bar is just about the only shape you can easily hand-forge neatly and accurately, so it's all you run into (aside from round-bar, of course). A square is also the only shape that naturally forms, because nearly every basic forming operation is some variation of two parallel hammer-faces shaping the metal in-between them, which naturally produces a 4-sided profile with parallel faces. Anything else requires Special Methods And Steps to work (i.e, the diamond profile of a spear-head or a sword requires either an experienced and skilled smith to hand-form it via a very specific and tricky sequence of hammer-blows, or special swages and forms to support the back of the metal not being directly struck with the hammer). Actually I lied, things like octagons are easy because you just flatten the corners. stuff like that. Generally the only easy stuff involves parallel faces, though.
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Aug 27, 2012 05:00
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I wouldn't upset the end because then you can also use the punch as a drift. One tool to punch a hole and also make it larger, efficiency! 
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Aug 27, 2012 16:51
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Personally I wouldn't use a punch and drift as the same tool. It would ruin the temper. Having a good hard edge is like having a good sharp blade, it makes for quick and clean holes. Tough punches upset more, they don't set into the metal as well and they take longer. Better to just make another tool. Drifts are quick and they will last a few years. It's worth the time in my book.
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Aug 28, 2012 16:01
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The bar he's making it from just looks like mild steel though, so it won't really matter how he tempers it.
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Aug 28, 2012 16:30
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Slung Blade posted:The bar he's making it from just looks like mild steel though, so it won't really matter how he tempers it. It is just mild steel- I know that tool steel is better for tools (duh), but what do you mean that it doesn't matter how I temper it? I was just going to slow cool the metal in some sand, reheat it, and quench in oil. Is there a different way to do it?
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Aug 28, 2012 16:34
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You can't temper mild steel. It doesn't have enough carbon. It won't work very well for a tool either. You can use it as a drift, but it won't last very long. If you are going to make any tools I'd find something that was higher carbon, like a spring for instance.
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Aug 28, 2012 16:39
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Also note that you can case-harden mild steel to make it slightly more durable- there are powders you sprinkle onto the hot metal that'll give it a thin jacket of hard carbon steel real quickly and easily, and some of them aren't even cyanide-based! Science is neat. Also instant case-hardening compound is neat. But yeah, if you use a mild steel tool on anything other than hot, soft steel it'll deform extremely quickly. Stuff like drifts, which are subject to temper-ruining high temperatures and mild physical strain, are great in mild steel- but a punch really isn't, unless the punch is massive in comparison to the stock it's being used to work.
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Aug 28, 2012 17:54
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^^^ These folks already said what I was going to so I won't bother. Mild steel punches don't work very well, but as long as you don't mind reshaping them and grinding and cooling them after every heat, it'll do the job. Punching thin material will work much better than thick stuff, less heat to transfer to the punch and allow it to deform. All that said, even some lovely harbour freight punches will do a decent job for punching holes. They don't last forever either, but they'll probably work better. If you can get some decent tool steel, it's definitely fun to make your own, but don't be afraid to use disposable mild steel ones in the meantime. Just don't do it forever, it'll get real old real fast and it's not worth your time once you know what you're doing.
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Aug 28, 2012 21:36
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I think it's a very good idea to start out with mild steel though. Making your own tools is wonderful: but while you're learning the very basic techniques (tapering, upsetting, making curves, etc), working with nice forgiving (cheaper!) mild steel is the way to go. ...which is why you should make a letter-opener, a hook, a spoon, and then try something fancier like a candlestick, or a fireplace poker, or a door handle. And then make tongs. It'll be nicer when you make your carbon steel tools to be focusing on how carbon steel forges differently from mild steel, and having results that are good enough to actually use, rather than having ugly scrap at the end that isn't really great (but cost more to make).
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Aug 28, 2012 21:45
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Anyone have a reccomended brand of files? Our entire apprentice group and our instructors have been dismayed to find out after recieving a large order that since last year, Nicholson has 1) moved production to Mexico and, 2) become absolute poo poo. Seriously, 20% came bent from the factory.
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Aug 28, 2012 23:30
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Hmm, I didn't know you can case harden or add powder to increase the carbon content of mild steel. I wonder if it would be worth the effort. Is it easy to do? How does case hardening mild steel work? This is very interesting. I absolutely agree with Leperflesh, playing around and making simple things out of mild is a good place to start. Tool steel is harder to work with, and tool making is pretty advanced for someone just starting out.
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Aug 29, 2012 06:31
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ArtistCeleste posted:Hmm, I didn't know you can case harden or add powder to increase the carbon content of mild steel. I wonder if it would be worth the effort. Is it easy to do? How does case hardening mild steel work? This is very interesting.
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Aug 29, 2012 06:52
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