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HalfHazard posted:Perfect, thanks much Ampora will be charming, witty, and genuinely kind. Like post-scratch Eridan he won't be getting with anyone, not because he's pathetic, but because he doesn't want to spoil the relationship he has with his friends and also he's kinda shy.
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Sep 1, 2012 12:01
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Jesus christ guys just because women are subject to discrimination in our world doesn't mean that any fictional representation of the females of a vaguely humanoid species has to mirror that. The sex of an individual plays no reproductive role in troll biology. The caretaking of the young is not the responsibility of any of the parents but that of lusii. There are no traditional gender roles that we can discern except for the Jadebloods, and even here there's more than sex to it as they occupy a unique blood caste. And from what we know from troll society through the ancestors female trolls are perfectly capable of having respected and responsible positions in troll society, from the fear-inspiring Mindfang, to the trusted legislecator Redglare, to the absolute monarch Betty Crocker. And if you step back out of the story and look at it, troll genders are nothing more than a way for Hussie to add diversity in his cast. We are actually beaten so hard with the idea that they play no biological function that anyone with some knowledge of biology would at least briefly lose his suspension of disbelief, because this being the case there would be no reason for different sexes to develop within the species. Gender equality is a huge issue in the real world. But the whole point of fiction is that it escapes reality. And while it can parallel it it doesn't have to; if it always did that it wouldn't be fiction, it would just be reality in a different setting. Just because an alien species has male and female biological sexes in a work of fiction that doesn't mean they have to follow real life human gender dynamics. Jesus christ I wrote so many words over troll society someone kill me I am the tumblrs 
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Sep 1, 2012 12:17
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Slime posted:Ampora will be charming, witty, and genuinely kind. Like post-scratch Eridan he won't be getting with anyone, not because he's pathetic, but because he doesn't want to spoil the relationship he has with his friends and also he's kinda shy.
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Sep 1, 2012 12:31
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YF-23 posted:Jesus christ I wrote so many words over troll society someone kill me I am the tumblrs To be fair, a lot of this is based on how troll reproduction was done in Alternia, which was something the Condesce tried enforcing on humans even so it could be fairly different in Beforus. Additionally going by the dialogue iirc it basically said that despite being a Matriarchy positions of power were still give majorly to male trolls. Which is probably even worse if there really is no historical cultural reasons really, and is just discrimination 'just because'.
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Sep 1, 2012 12:43
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YF-23 posted:Trolls != humans Any, the whole tumblr metaphor thing makes this a little confusing. Kankri represents the SJW types, but human SJWs are very concerned with gender. So who, if anyone, is Porrim supposed to represent? Obviously this is a politically sensitive issue because people are reading Porrim's stance as directly representing human-style feminism, and therefore any disagreement with that as being also a disagreement with human feminism. But if you don't take trolls too literally as a metaphor for humanity that doesn't have to be the case.
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Sep 1, 2012 12:48
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Loden Taylor posted:She's more of a legit feminist, which is what makes her such a good foil for Kankri; she's concerned about actual oppression while he's obsessed with righting wrongs that are completely irrelevant. I don't think Kankri is completely misguided, he's just a big blowhard, but I think the blood caste stuff he's talking about probably did happen on Beforus based on things we've heard Aranea say/other things in the flash. He's couched that in a lot of hilarious blether and picked up dozens of side-issues along the way but I get the impression he's talking about something that actually existed. There's also the fact that he's a young version of the Sufferer, who championed the same issues writ much larger, so the contrast would appear to suggest that he's at least latched on to a straw of actual justice. Android Blues fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Sep 1, 2012 |
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Sep 1, 2012 13:51
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Comic posted:To be fair, a lot of this is based on how troll reproduction was done in Alternia, which was something the Condesce tried enforcing on humans even so it could be fairly different in Beforus. I'm wondering what difference this would even make. If the Troll genders are basically just cosmetic, it really shouldn't make any difference whatsoever if the leader of the Trolls are mostly male or female, since the two genders are so similar that there is no impact on society in any way. The fact that all jadebloods are female would, from someone like Kankri's perspective, be an irrelevant nitpick since their "enslavement" to tending the mother grub is still a blood-caste issue. Pointing out that they are all girls would be like pointing out that they are all left handed. (apologies to left handed people) Rohan Kishibe fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Sep 1, 2012 |
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Sep 1, 2012 14:25
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DaveKap posted:I noticed you already have a rather good Porrim avatar (and I'm incredibly bad at reading this thread) so I'll assume you don't need anything from me now. Yeah, I did a bit of gun-jumping, sorry about that. 
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Sep 1, 2012 14:52
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ShardPhoenix posted:Yes. For example, people seem to be reading the latest update as Kankri being a total fool and Porrim being the one who wisely sees the true oppression. However, for trolls, the whole hemospectrum thing is actually a much bigger deal than gender, so Kankri's concerns (despite their pedantic and obsessive presentation) are significantly more important than Porrim's, in my opinion. Not sure if even Hussie would agree with that though, given the way it's presented. Maybe we'll meed more ancestor trolls who are really, really grateful that Kankri tags himself to warn them he's going to say rustblood before he says rustblood, but at the moment we've got a social justice warrior who says he wants no one to feel oppressed, exactly one troll who feels oppressed about anything, and he says that her feelings are, 'unscientific.' It almost doesn't matter what she feels oppressed about--right now, we see him gassing on about stuff no one cares about and not gassing on about stuff that his peers actually do care about. So, good job Kankri!
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Sep 1, 2012 15:00
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I think the real issue here is that Hussie would have to be either a complete loving fool or a satirical shaolin master to write a buffoonish feminist character. And given that he's a dude, even if he did manage to pull off a Beaton-esque parody it'd still be pretty eeehhhhhh. So really its safer to just fudge the context a little and make Porrim the reasonable one.
paranoid randroid fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Sep 1, 2012 |
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Sep 1, 2012 15:01
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^^^Aww, man! Don't pull the rug out from under me, lame. Kankri looked cold and stupid, so she made him a sweater so he'd look warmed and less stupid. She can't hate him that much. Mystic Mongol fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Sep 1, 2012 |
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Sep 1, 2012 15:03
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..You know what I just realized? How do the Beforus trolls manage to gently caress up their session, yet none of them actually died? I thought the whole thing was that (besides the LE glitch) they were, as a society, unprepared for the game. So how did they all actually survive up until the end?
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Sep 1, 2012 15:06
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Mystic Mongol posted:Kankri looked cold and stupid, so she made him a sweater so he'd look warmed and less stupid. She can't hate him that much. It struck me as "He's an Insufferable moron but he's our moron" type deal. Kind of like with Vriska and that lot of trolls. She's a bitch but she's still their friend in-spite of that.
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Sep 1, 2012 15:09
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Color Printer posted:..You know what I just realized? How do the Beforus trolls manage to gently caress up their session, yet none of them actually died? I thought the whole thing was that (besides the LE glitch) they were, as a society, unprepared for the game. So how did they all actually survive up until the end?
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Sep 1, 2012 15:12
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From what I'm gathering, the problem is that they didn't really play the game. They were there for, what, six years and they made practically no progress on the Genesis Frog, which is kinda important. And, I may be miss remembering, but I vaguely recall the impression from one of Aranea's rants earlier that they basically delayed so long that the Reckoning started to occur and they had made so little progress that the game was plain unwinnable. Plus, you know, since they weren't born in that session, they would have had to scratch in any event.
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Sep 1, 2012 15:20
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Nate RFB posted:Something could have happened that prevented them from breeding the Genesis Frog. Maybe they didn't pursue higher levels and god tiers until it was too late, and let someone like Jack kill all of their frogs? Maybe they were too slow and the reckoning destroyed Skaia before they were finished? Given it seemed like they were stuck in their session for years, taking too long strikes me as a good bet.
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Sep 1, 2012 15:22
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I have a stupid question regarding Calliope. The comic has previously established that a player's dreamself does not necessarily need to mirror their real identity. Terezi discusses that she is only blind in her dreams because "deep down she really doesn't want to". When Caliborn killed his sister, we were shown her dreamself but only from the torso down. Given Calliope's obsession with trolls, is it possible that her dreamself or dead self is her trollian identity?
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Sep 1, 2012 15:23
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Seoinin posted:I think the real issue here is that Hussie would have to be either a complete loving fool or a satirical shaolin master to write a buffoonish feminist character. And given that he's a dude, even if he did manage to pull off a Beaton-esque parody it'd still be pretty eeehhhhhh. So really its safer to just fudge the context a little and make Porrim the reasonable one. There's no fudging required. The context is that she is talking to Kankri, whose entire character revolves around being the world's most inept social justice activist. Kankri is an idiot who barely touches on the caste system's actual issues and spends most of his time championing the troll equivalent of "people who think they are Sephiroth"; his creed is that people must be aware of every issue no matter how tiny or insignificant or actually nonexistent it is. Let me reiterate that: among his other causes Kankri literally advocates on behalf of hypothetical disadvantaged groups that he knows do not exist. Then Porrim comes up and raises a small but legitimate issue. Sure, she doesn't face the kind of oppression that human women face, but you can still see subtle ways in which things are slanted against female trolls. It is precisely this kind of issue that Kankri's hyper-sensitive vocabulary is meant to address, not because it is a huge issue like real-world feminism, but because it is small. And then Kankri not only dismisses her, he does it in the most heavy-handed and sanctimonious fashion imaginable. If he was being more level-handed and low-key it might be reasonable to assume that he's in the right on this issue, but he's laying it on so thickly that it's pretty obvious the irony engine is running full blast. The fact that Porrim has a legitimate issue and isn't just raising a bunch of reverse-MRA bullshit is the joke.
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Sep 1, 2012 15:28
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Midnight Raider posted:Given it seemed like they were stuck in their session for years, taking too long strikes me as a good bet. The post-scratch troll session took, what, a few days to a week? The pre-scratch human session took like a loving day or so, didn't it? Pre-scratch trolls were slow assholes. How the gently caress were they so slow when they've got Meenah? If anyone could get some progress done it would have been her. Maybe she got slowed down because she was too busy conquering places rather than actually getting on with the game.
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Sep 1, 2012 15:35
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The trick with figuring out how these sessions failed is to work out that the Troll sessions failed by playing badly, but the human sessions have been fundamentally broken. -B1 was largely hosed up by external meddling by Vriska and/or Gamzee, or Karkat if you subscribe to that line of thinking. It's not the kids' fault that they failed, they were going well until things outside of their control ruined everything. It's a bit like a poorly-planned mod making the main quest of an Elder Scrolls game unwinnable. -B2, on the other hand, is just completely and utterly hosed. Again through no fault of their own, but the game is from the get-go completely broken. This is Big Rigs Over The Road Racing level of broken, their game is borderline unplayable. -A2, we've established by this point, is the result of bunch of powergamers brute-forcing a speedrun of the game. The Alternian trolls are basically those guys who marathon games the day they come out in an attempt to be the first guy to finish; they're not good at it, but they're putting more effort than anyone ever should in clocking it, in the process completely missing the entire point of the game. -A1 is the complete opposite. They didn't powergame anything. On the contrary. I was going to compare this to Skyrim, but it's more like if you spent so much time loving around in Dead Rising that you finished with a 2% completion rating. The Beforus trolls were too busy smelling the roses to complete the game before it ended.
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Sep 1, 2012 15:40
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Slime posted:The post-scratch troll session took, what, a few days to a week? The pre-scratch human session took like a loving day or so, didn't it? Post-Scratch trolls took a few months, and that was incredibly fast. The humans didn't play their game, they just threw the new frog together, hit the scratch, and ollied out as quickly as possible. The game's implied to take a year or two.
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Sep 1, 2012 15:41
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Gabriel Pope posted:There's no fudging required. The context is that she is talking to Kankri, whose entire character revolves around being the world's most inept social justice activist. Kankri is an idiot who barely touches on the caste system's actual issues and spends most of his time championing the troll equivalent of "people who think they are Sephiroth"; his creed is that people must be aware of every issue no matter how tiny or insignificant or actually nonexistent it is. Let me reiterate that: among his other causes Kankri literally advocates on behalf of hypothetical disadvantaged groups that he knows do not exist. Not only that, but Kankri has an unerring habit to zero in on things his friends might be possibly hypothetically uncomfortable about and then bang on and on and on and on about how much he doesn't want them to be uncomfortable that it achieves the exact opposite effect. And then he acts like he's doing them a favor. Karkat is a nice kid who tried, usually unsuccessfully, to cover up that fact by acting like an rear end in a top hat to everyone around him. So it goes to reason that his counterpart is an insensitive prick who tries, always unsuccessfully, to cover it up by acting reasonable and considerate to everyone around him.
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Sep 1, 2012 15:43
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The A2 trolls technically did win. They beat the Black King, made the Genesis Frog and everything, they just never entered the new universe. Continuing the video game analogies, it's the equivalent of suddenly dying during the credits sequence and not triggering anything you would have unlocked. The reason is like one of those dumbass things in adventure games where you do something idiotic (most likely without knowing it) and don't realize it hosed you over until several hours later. In this case it just happened right after the end.
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Sep 1, 2012 15:47
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Also he taught Latula that she should be ashamed of her inability to smell things, good job Kankri.
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Sep 1, 2012 15:48
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Gabriel Pope posted:There's no fudging required. The context is that she is talking to Kankri, whose entire character revolves around being the world's most inept social justice activist. Kankri is an idiot who barely touches on the caste system's actual issues and spends most of his time championing the troll equivalent of "people who think they are Sephiroth"; his creed is that people must be aware of every issue no matter how tiny or insignificant or actually nonexistent it is. Let me reiterate that: among his other causes Kankri literally advocates on behalf of hypothetical disadvantaged groups that he knows do not exist. This discussion inadvertently made me try to imagine a troll Camille Paglia and hahahaha gently caress I feel like my body is trying to reject my brain. paranoid randroid fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Sep 1, 2012 |
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Sep 1, 2012 15:54
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Here's what I want to know: whose memories are all those felt items? Is it foreshadowing that LE is close? Did Slick Spades get here somehow?
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Sep 1, 2012 15:59
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Slime posted:The post-scratch troll session took, what, a few days to a week? The pre-scratch human session took like a loving day or so, didn't it? I think I recall Porrim pointing out that their Teen Drama may have also been a culprit in slowing things down, which is definitely a contrast to the post-scratch game where Karkat shouted everyone into acting like a team. Between Meenah's less than personable power-grabbing and Kankri's probably ineffective opposite approach, I can imagine the ancestor trolls easily could have fallen back into cliquey fragments and not gotten much done. And that's aside from the implications that the trolls pre-scratch were a lot less tough, and may have spent more time retreating from encounters than they were winning them. Edit: Come to think of it, if they were closer to John and Jade's starting combat ability, they would have had a rough time given they still probably prototyped their lusii. (At least minus a horrorterror.) Midnight Raider fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Sep 1, 2012 |
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Sep 1, 2012 16:02
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Bobulus posted:Here's what I want to know: whose memories are all those felt items? Is it foreshadowing that LE is close? Did Slick Spades get here somehow? If Hussie got there then it shouldn't have been hard for SS to follow, right? Or have I forgotten something?
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Sep 1, 2012 16:02
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Popo posted:If Hussie got there then it shouldn't have been hard for SS to follow, right? Or have I forgotten something? You've forgotten that Andrew died. Spades Slick is very much alive. And he intends to stay that way.
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Sep 1, 2012 16:07
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edit: nm
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Sep 1, 2012 16:08
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Hatemarry. Same password Jade used. e. apparently I hit a very narrow window there. paranoid randroid fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Sep 1, 2012 |
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Sep 1, 2012 16:09
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Hussie is really good at writing characters. Of all the new trolls he's introduced so far, only Latula seems undeveloped since she's only shown to care about being rad. Though that could change in the next updates.
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Sep 1, 2012 16:17
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The way I see it, Porrim is essentially Hussie's answer to the fact that even when attempting to write a matriarchal society, he, as a male living in a patriarchy, will inevitably have some problematic material regarding women. Porrim is meant to address that.
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Sep 1, 2012 16:29
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Popo posted:If Hussie got there then it shouldn't have been hard for SS to follow, right? Or have I forgotten something? Technically you can probably take a step back from Slick right there.. Hussie would know about the Felt stuff since he wrote them, and he's quite dead, so he's there already. (Although he seems to be the only non-player who's shown up in dream bubbles automatically. But I guess he's the Huss of Space anyway.) voting third party posted:Hussie is really good at writing characters. Of all the new trolls he's introduced so far, only Latula seems undeveloped since she's only shown to care about being rad. Though that could change in the next updates. I thought Porrim's talk with her made it apparent that at least part of Latula's Rad Kid act may in fact be just that, an act. (And putting up a big front is pretty much drat common in terms of Homestuck characters. Even Terezi herself did to an extent.)
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Sep 1, 2012 16:31
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So if the Sufferer is a tumblr dingus, naturally the Summoner will be a humorlessly earnest trot with a messenger bag full of socialist party newspapers.
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Sep 1, 2012 16:37
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Seoinin posted:So if the Sufferer is a tumblr dingus, naturally the Summoner will be a humorlessly earnest trot with a messenger bag full of socialist party newspapers. Given Tavros's and the Summoner's abilities there's gotta be an Animal Farm joke in there somewhere.
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Sep 1, 2012 16:47
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I think I missed the page back where all the avatar stuff went on, but who is resizing all these sprites? I'd love to have this as my avatar.
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Sep 1, 2012 17:02
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I was amused when Porrim pointed out that Kankri was talking about problems in a society that no longer exists - not even in the afterlife (has anyone seen a ghost of a non-player that wasn't just a memory? Recall that Andrew Hussie is technically a player, the Waste of Space).Color Printer posted:..You know what I just realized? How do the Beforus trolls manage to gently caress up their session, yet none of them actually died? I thought the whole thing was that (besides the LE glitch) they were, as a society, unprepared for the game. So how did they all actually survive up until the end? They failed to stop the Reckoning, and their Battlefield became too heavily damaged to be used as a breeding ground for the Genesis Frog.
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Sep 1, 2012 17:49
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Bongo Bill posted:Recall that Andrew Hussie is technically a player, the Waste of Space Considering his tendencies and what we know now about certain classes, I'd say he's more like the Prince of Life.  Maybe a dual-class.But yeah, about the A1 world, I guess that all makes sense. I guess I was just hung up on wondering how they all managed to not die and I forgot their session took ages, so they probably weren't ever in life-threatening danger because things never really took off until too late.
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Sep 1, 2012 17:53
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Bongo Bill posted:I was amused when Porrim pointed out that Kankri was talking about problems in a society that no longer exists - not even in the afterlife (has anyone seen a ghost of a non-player that wasn't just a memory? Recall that Andrew Hussie is technically a player, the Waste of Space). Everyone fails to stop the reckoning. It's one of the things necessary for the players to get to earth, the reason players enter the medium to escape it, and a reason to want to create a new universe.
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Sep 1, 2012 17:57
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