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Aerox posted:Is the general consensus here that Netrunner is good and worth picking up for $30? For those who own/play it, what are the aspects of the game you don't like? My only complaint is that practically everything in the game has a cutsey name- see the aforementioned mixup between HQ/R&D above and multiply that 10 times over. It's easy enough to get used to, but seems rather unneccessary.
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Sep 10, 2012 22:27
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Orange Devil posted:You seemed to be saying R&D is the most important to protect. I disagree and feel that HQ is more important. Ideally you get both, but if you must choose, you should choose HQ more often than not. I just think R&D is more important to protect because you have far more influence over the contents of your hand as Corp. Unless you have Precog every 4th turn and just stack the Agendas where you want them and hit the poor runner with Snares all the time, your greatest uncontrollable losses are going to come from your deck. Just my experience. I think I've lost maybe... two or three Agendas from my hand. Almost all my actual game losses came off the deck. Against Criminals this is a bit different, but I still think running the deck is the greatest source of victory points for the Runner.
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Sep 10, 2012 22:41
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PlaneGuy posted:I hate when designers do that. Yeah it might be thematic, but no one will ever mix up "cards in hand" with "R&D" or "deck" with "Grip" Don't they do as a shorthand and a way to avoid stupid trademark issues? The shorthand is obvious, because it allows them to make better use of the space on the card. "R+D" takes up way less room than "Corp's Deck" and sounds more thematic. They can't use well known phrases that other games use (like tap) because the mechanic called 'tapping' is patented by WoTC. (IANAL)
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Sep 10, 2012 22:50
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NmareBfly posted:Don't they do as a shorthand and a way to avoid stupid trademark issues? The shorthand is obvious, because it allows them to make better use of the space on the card. "R+D" takes up way less room than "Corp's Deck" and sounds more thematic. They can't use well known phrases that other games use (like tap) because the mechanic called 'tapping' is patented by WoTC. But words like "deck", "hand" and "discard" are not. They can still use whatever they want for Tap, like Engage, Bow, Exhaust or a million other words that other CCGs have used over the ages. Magic calls a deck a library... but there are actual rules reasons for this. Maybe that's why Netrunner does this.
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Sep 10, 2012 22:57
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I won a nailbiter of a game with Netrunner today: As Jinteki, the enemy had 6 agenda points and I only had 3: I had an agenda in play behind 3 pieces of ice but the runner was reluctant to run it since it was filled with wall of thorns, katanas and chum. Getting desperate because he was pretty much gaining access to HQ at will and I had one agenda in my hand, I plant a Junebug (does damage if you have advancement tokens) in a new remote and put a single data bomb to protect it, advancing the junebug once. The bomb goes off, he discards to 1 card and I hold my breath as he decided if he wants to jack out or not. He accesses: two net damage, he's lost the game. The game is awesome, I really like it. Almost all the games I've had have been close and there's a real element of mind games to the whole thing. As mentioned before, the names of things get annoying but I guess it's thematic.
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Sep 10, 2012 22:59
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sicarius posted:But words like "deck", "hand" and "discard" are not. They can still use whatever they want for Tap, like Engage, Bow, Exhaust or a million other words that other CCGs have used over the ages. Magic calls a deck a library... but there are actual rules reasons for this. Maybe that's why Netrunner does this. Netrunner96 used "deck" as the name for a type of card, so it couldn't be used to refer to a pile of cards. The reboot calls them consoles, though.
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Sep 10, 2012 23:04
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I haven't played Netrunner yet and it sounds like the lot of you are making this bullshit up. I'm half-expecting someone to say that the cards are called "programs" or some poo poo, unless they're discarded, in which case they're called "Blockbuster Video rentals."
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Sep 10, 2012 23:13
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Broken Loose posted:I haven't played Netrunner yet and it sounds like the lot of you are making this bullshit up. Some cards are called "programs" - actually!
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Sep 10, 2012 23:14
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I'm also having fun with Netrunner, verbage aside. I've been basically focusing on Corp play to get familiar with the different cards and faction tactics and it's been interesting to see just how diverse play styles can be. For instance, my wife and I have been playing for a few days and I'd thought I'd had a pretty good defensive plan setup. Then my 11 yr old wants to take a shot, and because both my initial draw and mulligan totally sucked Ice-wise but got me a Mine, I played that figuring he'd try for my HQ or the mine. Then I alternate getting money and drawing cards for the next few turns still turning garbage (as Jinteki). Anyways, he zeroes in on my R&D and gets ridiculous luck stealing agendas over like 4 turns. Dang kids :/
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Sep 10, 2012 23:22
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Broken Loose posted:I haven't played Netrunner yet and it sounds like the lot of you are making this bullshit up. Kind of like how magic cards are called "spells" until the stack resolves at which point they're called "permanents"?
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Sep 10, 2012 23:23
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Poopy Palpy posted:Kind of like how magic cards are called "spells" until the stack resolves at which point they're called "permanents"? This is actually really important. Magic is tournament played for lots of money, and they've changed the language to reflect that so that there are no questions about things. And not all spells become permanents.... only those which have types that are permanents - creature, planeswalker, enchantment, artifact, etc.
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Sep 10, 2012 23:27
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Tekopo posted:I won a nailbiter of a game with Netrunner today: As Jinteki, the enemy had 6 agenda points and I only had 3: I had an agenda in play behind 3 pieces of ice but the runner was reluctant to run it since it was filled with wall of thorns, katanas and chum. Getting desperate because he was pretty much gaining access to HQ at will and I had one agenda in my hand, I plant a Junebug (does damage if you have advancement tokens) in a new remote and put a single data bomb to protect it, advancing the junebug once. The bomb goes off, he discards to 1 card and I hold my breath as he decided if he wants to jack out or not. He accesses: two net damage, he's lost the game. Jinteki Supremacy! Seriously that card is loving ridiculous, but you have to get lucky. You've gotta protect it JUST ENOUGH to look valuable, but not too much that you outspend yourself. I mentioned earlier but I've won two games with it. The second game my roommate jacked out right before because the ice before it was a data bomb. After I re-iced it with something that looked more substantial she went right for it. This also means it's time to mix up my strategy, especially if we play the same decks/roles.
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Sep 10, 2012 23:47
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sicarius posted:This is actually really important. Magic is tournament played for lots of money, and they've changed the language to reflect that so that there are no questions about things. "Removed from the game" worked just fine for a couple decades until they changed it to "exiled" a few years back to be more flavorful.
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Sep 10, 2012 23:48
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Poopy Palpy posted:"Removed from the game" worked just fine for a couple decades until they changed it to "exiled" a few years back to be more flavorful. The problem was that "removed from the game" had become untrue with the advent of the Wishes. I mean yeah, there was Ring of Ma'Ruf, but nobody played that. Burning and Cunning Wish were the real deal, though.
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Sep 10, 2012 23:50
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Broken Loose posted:I haven't played Netrunner yet and it sounds like the lot of you are making this bullshit up. I'm not really that surprised when the object of the game is to score seven "dystopia points."
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Sep 10, 2012 23:59
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sicarius posted:I just think R&D is more important to protect because you have far more influence over the contents of your hand as Corp. Unless you have Precog every 4th turn and just stack the Agendas where you want them and hit the poor runner with Snares all the time, your greatest uncontrollable losses are going to come from your deck. I've lost quite some agenda from my hand, especially against criminals, but that's not the largest issue. Account Siphon early on flat out ends games, whereas an early run on R&D, even with Maker's Eye can just whiff completely. Medium is another story. And RE: the Junebug discussion up top: It's the absolute strongest when you are on 4AP (or higher) and then you play it and advance it twice. Unless they got a reveal effect available, they have to either deplete your credits or run on it or risk losing next turn. Lastly, chum + data mine is the most satisfying way to flatline a runner. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Sep 11, 2012 |
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Sep 11, 2012 00:04
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NmareBfly posted:Don't they do as a shorthand and a way to avoid stupid trademark issues? The shorthand is obvious, because it allows them to make better use of the space on the card. "R+D" takes up way less room than "Corp's Deck" and sounds more thematic. They can't use well known phrases that other games use (like tap) because the mechanic called 'tapping' is patented by WoTC. I'm not sure why you think WOTC-trademarked names would be a problem for Fantasy Flight, given that they already had to buy everything else in the game from WOTC.
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Sep 11, 2012 00:12
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pw pw pw posted:I don't have more than one night a week to play board games. Yesterday I added a couple old miniatures I had lying around (a ninja and a brown bear), but at the end of the night someone else showed up and asked if he could play next time. Even playing with 6 people was loving bonkers! Your game sounds fun as hell! I have a random box of minis from other games I use as proxies in WHQ too. The bear character sounds really sweet--I love when people do random poo poo like that and add to their games. It reminds me of being a kid and doing creative rule changes like that with my friends.
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Sep 11, 2012 00:20
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I know it will cost me a lot, but I'm looking for Warhammer Quest. I put up a thread in SA mart. http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3506200
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Sep 11, 2012 00:27
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Jedit posted:I'm not sure why you think WOTC-trademarked names would be a problem for Fantasy Flight, given that they already had to buy everything else in the game from WOTC. It was just an example of patented game mechanics, first one that came to mind because basically every CCG has a tap mechanic with a different name. Probably would have cost a ton extra to use the same verbiage, if WOTC let them do so in the first place. I'm sure they didn't want to water down the Magic brand. Does the new Netrunner use the same terminology / iconography as the old one? Never played either, just curious.
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Sep 11, 2012 01:30
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Orange Devil posted:I've lost quite some agenda from my hand, especially against criminals, but that's not the largest issue. Account Siphon early on flat out ends games, whereas an early run on R&D, even with Maker's Eye can just whiff completely. Medium is another story. I'm not saying that defending your hand is dumb, but I still think that unless you have 2+ agendas in hand on turn 1 you defend the deck first. If you have 2+ agendas in hand, then obviously you defend the hand. If, somehow, you can defend both then you do that. Jedit posted:I'm not sure why you think WOTC-trademarked names would be a problem for Fantasy Flight, given that they already had to buy everything else in the game from WOTC. WotC wouldn't give the rights to use the word Tap, ever. They defend that word as a representative of that mechanic like a hawk. Trust me. Even if they have the rights for the mechanics of Netrunner and the name and concept, they didn't get the right to the Magic terminology with it. Poopy Palpy posted:"Removed from the game" worked just fine for a couple decades until they changed it to "exiled" a few years back to be more flavorful. Changing this to a different concept opened up a lot of design space for cards that are more flexible. Things like Karn Liberated, Restoration Angel, and Oblivion Ring wouldn't have existed in the old Magic. The idea is that something which is "exiled" is still in the game it's just not accessible in a normal way. It's allows them to use that concept without it being confusing - something "removed from the game" shouldn't be readily accessible at a later point. There are exceptions to this like Burning Wish, but they are incredibly rare. Again - Magic's rules are actually quite good as far as the clarity of them (even if they are complex). There are a lot of problems with the core game design that I don't want to get in to, but the rules are very clear and easily understood if you take the time to read how the more complex rules (like state effects and copy effects) interact. I say this as a former judge who was higher than level 1.
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Sep 11, 2012 01:30
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Subparr posted:I know it will cost me a lot, but I'm looking for Warhammer Quest. I put up a thread in SA mart. LumberingTroll had WHQ for sale a few days ago in his SA Mart thread if someone hasn't beaten you to it.
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Sep 11, 2012 02:16
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Lawen posted:LumberingTroll had WHQ for sale a few days ago in his SA Mart thread if someone hasn't beaten you to it. His thread was closed, but I PMed him. Thanks for pointing this out, I appreciate it! Edit: He sold it.  The search continues.
AZCollins fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Sep 11, 2012 |
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Sep 11, 2012 02:26
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sicarius posted:Changing this to a different concept opened up a lot of design space for cards that are more flexible. Things like Karn Liberated, Restoration Angel, and Oblivion Ring wouldn't have existed in the old Magic. The idea is that something which is "exiled" is still in the game it's just not accessible in a normal way. It's allows them to use that concept without it being confusing - something "removed from the game" shouldn't be readily accessible at a later point. There are exceptions to this like Burning Wish, but they are incredibly rare. Oblivion Ring was first printed before the change. It is one of many cards which "removed" things from the game only to have them come back again, including the "nightmare mechanic" from Oddysey block (which inspired Oblivion Ring), every card with suspend, every flicker-type effect and the similar Astral Slide-type effects, and a variety of others. Clearly the "removed from the game" zone wasn't actually outside the game. That's why they changed it to "exile" - not to open up new designs, but to more sensibly accommodate old ones.
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Sep 11, 2012 02:51
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sicarius posted:There are a lot of problems with the core game design that I don't want to get in to, but the rules are very clear and easily understood if you take the time to read how the more complex rules (like state effects and copy effects) interact. I say this as a former judge who was higher than level 1. Is there any chance I could hear your thoughts on what's wrong with Magic's core design? I have a similar opinion, but most people when you say 'Magic has a few issues' they scream you down like you spit on their mom.
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Sep 11, 2012 02:59
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NmareBfly posted:Does the new Netrunner use the same terminology / iconography as the old one? Never played either, just curious. Most of the terminology is the same, but some things were changed to be more in line with the Android setting, such as Bits->Credits and Actions->Clicks, along with adding formal names for the Runner's play area (hand->Grip, deck->Stack, discard pile->Heap, tableau->Rig.) The iconography is completely different, and much improved in A:N if you ask me, although some people complain that the Click and Credit symbols are extremely close in design, but I think those people just have lovely vision and can't tell the difference between a circle and a tall hexagon.
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Sep 11, 2012 03:16
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I guess games are pretty good when all we can bitch about is the verbage used to describe game actions.
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Sep 11, 2012 03:48
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quote:Is there any chance I could hear your thoughts on what's wrong with Magic's core design? I have a similar opinion, but most people when you say 'Magic has a few issues' they scream you down like you spit on their mom. There's some turn order asymmetry problems; throughout magic, playing first rather than drawing first has usually been an advantage (sometimes a large one). Some of the cards/rules/interactions are reasonably nuts - Humility/Opalescence type problems come to mind here, and lots of other interactions are unintuitive. There's a wider power range in cards than I think makes sense; they print ridiculously unbalanced cards at Mythic rarity to drive pack sales. These cards often ruin drafts, and make constructed unaffordable for many players. Their decision not to reprint some cards (ever) means that their older, more open formats are slowly dying. In general, there's more randomness than I'd like - I hate how many games come down to mana problems. I have no idea how to fix that, but other games don't have this problem as bad. In general though, I think it's astounding how well the general design has held up for such a complicated game (and especially a game with some many new mechanics and ideas). I played it fairly early on, and I still do an online draft now and again (Magic 2013 is a really solid draft format). No game is perfect, but I understand how some people get especially attached to Magic.
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Sep 11, 2012 03:53
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Picked up 1960: The Making of the Prez from my LFGS today. It was hard to find it online for a decent price, so paying retail was actually cool this time. Love Twilight Struggle, and want to see if 1960 can work as a gateway into CDGs. Stick with Nixon.
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Sep 11, 2012 04:32
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jmzero posted:I have no idea how to fix that, but other games don't have this problem as bad. WoW, Shadow Era, and a few other TCGs fix the whole idea of being screwed out of resources by letting you play any card face-down to act as a resource card, while being unable to use that card for anything else in the game. I can't imagine implementing something similar in M:tG without horrifically breaking the game, seeing as the whole dynamic of it is based on having dedicated resource cards.
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Sep 11, 2012 04:33
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KamikazeJim posted:WoW, Shadow Era, and a few other TCGs fix the whole idea of being screwed out of resources by letting you play any card face-down to act as a resource card, while being unable to use that card for anything else in the game. I can't imagine implementing something similar in M:tG without horrifically breaking the game, seeing as the whole dynamic of it is based on having dedicated resource cards. Yeah - and that's the breaking point. The core of the game - colored mana - ends up being the thing that is the most painful. You get to a point where planning your mana base is more important than the spells that end up in your deck (unless you're playing mono - in which case you basically don't care). There are a lot of people who blame mana screw/flood for their losses when it wasn't. They had outs and ways to stall the game for an answer, but they just aren't good players. However, at a certain point (usually in limited) you just get poo poo on, and it's ENTIRELY BASED ON LUCK. That's the lovely part.
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Sep 11, 2012 04:37
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I really wish that Magic was more like a contained puzzle instead of a never-ending money sink. I really like the idea of pauper leagues, cube drafts, and other things that make it more like a game of strategy and less like a nerd power fantasy.
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Sep 11, 2012 05:09
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sicarius posted:Yeah - and that's the breaking point. The core of the game - colored mana - ends up being the thing that is the most painful. You get to a point where planning your mana base is more important than the spells that end up in your deck (unless you're playing mono - in which case you basically don't care). There are a lot of people who blame mana screw/flood for their losses when it wasn't. They had outs and ways to stall the game for an answer, but they just aren't good players. However, at a certain point (usually in limited) you just get poo poo on, and it's ENTIRELY BASED ON LUCK. That's the lovely part. Alright, so a lot of the same things I complain about, nice to know I'm not crazy. As a side note, I play The Spoils, and why it has some constructed issues, I still swear by it for draft, and it does a combination of the 'any card's a resource' and the five color resource base. I also used to play duel masters and am getting into Kaijudo for my younger siblings and its answer is everything can be a land of the card color, which also is interesting.
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Sep 11, 2012 05:18
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sector_corrector posted:I really wish that Magic was more like a contained puzzle instead of a never-ending money sink. I really like the idea of pauper leagues, cube drafts, and other things that make it more like a game of strategy and less like a nerd power fantasy. Basically all I play anymore is a handful of drafts, EDH, and cube. I play constructed only when absolutely necessary or when a decktype appears in my mind that I love - right now, I LOVE the Trading Post decks. That's it. I just accept that, well, I'm going to get mana screwed in the drafts I play. Also - there are always LCGs. I recommend Warhammer Invasion. It's awesome! lighttigersoul posted:Alright, so a lot of the same things I complain about, nice to know I'm not crazy. Pretty much every game since Magic has done it a little better, but in doing so lost all the flavor that colored mana brought to Magic. It's a really interesting thing to note that Magic's (arguably) largest fault is the thing which gives it the most character. I loved the Vs. system, but that game was doomed from the start: helmed by Upper Deck, floated on the back of HUGE pot tournies, based on expensive to obtain IPs, and infuriatingly inaccessible for a large number of people. However, it did a ton of things so right and it was VERY VERY balanced in a lot of ways. Great game that was hampered by a ton of poo poo completely unrelated to mechanics.
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Sep 11, 2012 05:32
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I picked up Omen and Tooth&Nail. T&N has been getting some good reviews from our group and looks like another cool, 2er Summoner Wars style game that's hopefully as balanced.Subparr posted:His thread was closed, but I PMed him. Thanks for pointing this out, I appreciate it! Do this: Go onto BGG(BoardGameGeek.com) sign up, and see who has Warhammer Quest for trade, then PM all those people and offer to buy them $100(or whatever the price you're willing to pay is, assuming it's more than $100) worth of stuff from CoolStuffInc.com in trade for the game. Since the shipping is free in the US you can save money on that, and they only have to pay to ship the game to you. For a lot of people I find on BGG, money is not as interesting as a box full of new games that they might not have spent the money on themselves.
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Sep 11, 2012 06:25
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KamikazeJim posted:The iconography is completely different, and much improved in A:N if you ask me, although some people complain that the Click and Credit symbols are extremely close in design, but I think those people just have lovely vision and can't tell the difference between a circle and a tall hexagon.
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Sep 11, 2012 07:21
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Guys, I'd really appreciate some feedback on my boardgame idea, but as there's a separate thread I've posted it there. It's a game about racing to take over the world with your villainous empire, while abusing time travel to benefit yourself or sabotage others. Please, if you do have feedback, put it in that thread rather than this one. I hope mods/OP don't mind the bump in this thread as that one's pretty quiet - if not, I'll happily remove this.
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Sep 11, 2012 09:05
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sicarius posted:Also - there are always LCGs. I recommend Warhammer Invasion. It's awesome! Finally got into this after so many recommendations and LOVE it! Already ordered the High/Dark Elves expansion after only 3 games we like it so much (both players being huge Magic players back in the day).
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Sep 11, 2012 13:59
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PaybackJack posted:I picked up Omen and Tooth&Nail. T&N has been getting some good reviews from our group and looks like another cool, 2er Summoner Wars style game that's hopefully as balanced. The designer of Omen was at Trash Fest and gave everyone a copy of Omen, which was really rad. It's definitely a fun two player game that has a lot of variety. For the dude looking for WHQ, first, you are making the right decision. The game is fantastic and has an almost limitless replayability, even before adding in the numerous supplements and fan made stuff. The BGG ploy mentioned above is good, but a lot of people I've found really only want to trade oop for oop. My friend got his copy on eBay a week or two ago for $184 total, I think. It even had some extras from White Dwarf. The auction he was in before that finished at $154, I think. And the goon had his for sale for $175, so I would imagine if you're willing to spend $150 to $200 you shouldn't have too much trouble. It's definitely not only available for $300+. I got my copy at Origins for $100 cash with painted minis back in 2007. But that was a ridiculous bargain and odds are you won't find a price that low online. If you aren't a minis purist, you could probably get all the other components for a good bit less and use proxies. Which you'll almost always use anyway as soon as you start rolling on the monster tables, unless you happen to own the entire Warhammer Fantasy line from the 90's. Anyway, good luck! It's absolutely worthy of being a grail game!
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Sep 11, 2012 14:02
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Anyone know if there has been an AI system for war games ever made? Either by dice or cards or a combination? Im not talking about a system that comes with a game, but a more universal AI system that can be adapted to work with different war games?
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Sep 11, 2012 14:41
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