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One of my co-workers was pissed off because he couldn't go to Japan with his mates any more during the national holiday. I think there are quite a few Chinese people who don't follow this bullshit line - but they are a silent (and sometimes intentionally invisible) minority.
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Sep 18, 2012 13:31
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Yeah, almost all of my Chinese friends here are talking about how this is just distracting everyone from actually important stuff that's going on and that the vandals and thieves are either stupid or opportunistic.
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Sep 18, 2012 14:56
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That's a common sentiment here as well; that some people are looking for an excuse for violence and they are just being opportunistic. Actually the big topic of discussion in the office today was Bo Xilai's trial getting started, although there was some mention of the territorial dispute that I didn't follow very well. I need to brush up on my international law vocabulary before I can really participate. All I could really add was that I thought that two such large countries getting into a fight over such tiny islands was silly. The woman who sits at the desk next to me has a Suzuki so she's not too pleased about all this.
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Sep 18, 2012 15:31
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The Chunxiao gas field lies about 4km west of the disputed border, containing about 7.8 billion barrels of oil and a 1.6 trillion cubic feet of natural gas (just as a point of comparison, Americans consume about 22 TcF on per person per year). It's been part of talks about joint development since the 1990s. From what I remember from researching this issue for a paper, Japan basically started this row when a right wing group set up a lighthouse in 1978, presumably as a tit-for-tat in exchange for Japanese support of an "anti-hegemony clause" against the USSR in the 1978 Treaty of Peace and Friendship. In response, China sent 100 fishing boats armed with machine guns to circle the island a few times and go home. Some things never change. When Deng singed the treaty he said of the issue: "Our next generation will certainly be wiser. They will certainly find a solution acceptable to all.”
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Sep 18, 2012 15:47
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Oh. My. Zeus. posted:It's anecdotal, but those who I've asked about the topic brush it off by saying that Japan is a bunch of bullies and imperialists but they never get into details. I think most of the animosity attributed towards Japan, in China, can be attributed to this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 I think when you look at all that is going on with this being part of their relatively recent history it is quite understandable. Perhaps the islands, are for the chinese, an extension of the onresolved issues stemming from WW2. Japan afterall never did and never will admit to any wrongdoing from what I understand, atleast. Apparently most if not all the officials involved with these facilities were granted immunity. Agrajag fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Sep 18, 2012 |
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Sep 18, 2012 17:24
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Agrajag posted:I think most of the animosity attributed towards Japan, in China, can be attributed to this. ...what on Earth are you talking about?  While horrific, the practices of Unit 731 are pretty far down the list of "reason China hates Japan". Number one, both in Chinese propaganda efforts and in public awareness, is probably Nanjing, but that kind of devastation was replicated in numerous other cities as well (Shanghai was another bad one). Unlike the people directly affected by that one "little" experiment in inhumanity, chances are most urban Chinese in the occupied region have a family member who was acually raped/ butchered/ tortured by Japanese forces during the war. As emblematic as 731's activities are, they don't even amount to a rounding error in terms of direct victims of Japanese occupation.
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Sep 18, 2012 17:37
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Agrajag posted:I think most of the animosity attributed towards Japan, in China, can be attributed to this. Not just that, but they refuse to even acknowledge that it was a real thing. And when stuff came out from the soviet side, it was all dismissed as "propaganda". poo poo like this is what cuts to the heart of the whole "apology" poo poo. Japan basically refuses to give specific meaningful apologies. While at the same time denying some of the most horrific crimes ever happened.
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Sep 18, 2012 17:54
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That is actually a serious problem. Talk to any German and they are acutely aware to the point of personal shame (even for young people) about what their country did in WWII. And I believe that it's the right amount of introspection and soul searching for Germany to have gone through. Japan on the other hand seems to be either oblivious or just doesn't give a gently caress. There's no sense of national remorse. There's probably more national feeling about being the victims of two atomic bombs vs. perpetrating the Rape of Nanking.
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Sep 18, 2012 18:11
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The amount of war crimes perpetrated by Japan is so numerous and horrific that no single one of them can be pinpointed as the 'main' source of animosity against Japanese in China. However, the Chinese people are willing to put this grudge behind them, let bygones be bygones so to speak, if the Japanese were able to display genuine regrets for their wrongdoings, and apologize and make amendments with the people that they have wronged. But instead, what they got from japan are wholesale war crime denialism, downplaying of Japanese war crime and outright history revisionism in their textbooks, and high profile political visits by their heads of state to a shinto temple that enshires war criminals and revisionist history that, among other things, portrays Japan as the hero who tried to free Asia from western imperialism. It'd be like if German politicians repeatedly visited a memorial dedicated to Hitler, Goebbels and the rest of SS while their school textbooks downplayed and/or whitewash the holocaust and nazi war crimes as 'propaganda' or 'matters of opinion'. It's appalling that the international community is allowing japan to get away with this. Adrastus fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Sep 18, 2012 |
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Sep 18, 2012 20:21
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Vladimir Putin posted:There's probably more national feeling about being the victims of two atomic bombs vs. perpetrating the Rape of Nanking. That's not exactly a real low point in terms of national feeling.
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Sep 18, 2012 20:24
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Adrastus posted:The amount of war crimes perpetrated by Japan is so numerous and horrific that no single one of them can be pinpointed as the 'main' source of animosity against Japanese in China. However, the Chinese people are willing to put this grudge behind them, let bygones be bygones so to speak, if the Japanese were able to display genuine regrets for their wrongdoings, and apologize and make amendments with the people that they have wronged. But instead, what they got from japan are wholesale war crime denialism, downplaying of Japanese war crime and outright history revisionism in their textbooks, and high profile political visits by their heads of state to a shinto temple that enshires war criminals and revisionist history that, among other things, portrays Japan as the hero who tried to free Asia from western imperialism. Why don't they just apologize and acknowledge it. What kind of loving amendments do you want?
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Sep 18, 2012 21:10
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Vladimir Putin posted:Why don't they just apologize and acknowledge it. What kind of loving amendments do you want? Really, the bullshit apologies are akin to: Germany apologizes for the suffering and hardship of the Jewish people and is full of remorse for actions during the war. Then comes out and says: Gas chambers? ffff, what gas chambers, that's all propaganda. Concentration camps? you're just making poo poo up now. Compensation? hahahaha, get lost. Followed up with a national shrine to hitler and the SS that politicians go hang out at. What do you mean apologize? We already totally did that. If you want to see the actual sentiment of the Japanese to what happened, go check out all the lawsuits by survivors that got thrown out. They refuse to own up to any of it or even pretend to. 731 facility in Japan is being excavated, China requests DNA samples for human remains uncovered. Japan says gently caress off. That pretty much sums it up.
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Sep 18, 2012 21:33
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Far as I can tell, Pro-PRC and Adrastus are actually pretty much right here. Someone call Dick Morris.
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Sep 18, 2012 21:55
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Oceanbound posted:Really? Here in Hong Kong even the most vehement anti-communist government, pro-democracy activists are adamant that Diaoyu belongs to China. In fact they even landed a few guys on the island recently, and are planning to again (the HK government is so far not allowing their boat to leave). The most anti-China paper (apple daily) characterises the activists as heroes. I was referring to the first bit of what I quoted. Fall Sick and Die's post is an excellent summary of the average Chinese person's views on the current island dispute.
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Sep 18, 2012 22:42
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Pro-PRC Laowai posted:Really, the bullshit apologies are akin to: Man, I've seen posts from Imperial Japan apologists saying "If you went to America about American crimes, they'd say gently caress you. If you went to Russia about Stalin, they'd say gently caress you. If you went to Chinese about Mao, they'd say gently caress you. But if you went to Japanese about WWII, they'd say 'it was regrettable that this happened...' so why the double standard? The purpose of historical revisionists is to tell Japanese people to grow backbones." 
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Sep 18, 2012 22:44
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Warcabbit posted:Far as I can tell, Pro-PRC and Adrastus are actually pretty much right here. Even if the Japanese government were to apologize again the PRC still would not let go of this extremely useful political football. It is used frequently to distract the Chinese people from their real, government-created problems.
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Sep 18, 2012 22:50
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Longanimitas posted:Even if the Japanese government were to apologize again the PRC still would not let go of this extremely useful political football. It is used frequently to distract the Chinese people from their real, government-created problems. Yea, there's that claim that's made. However it's not really all that easy to prove, seeing as they never bothered. Also: http://weibo.com/1813482925/yCqNo66lB#1348007403238  Chinese billionaire Chen Guangbiao is apparently offering to replace all the smashed cars.
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Sep 18, 2012 23:38
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Pro-PRC Laowai posted:Yea, there's that claim that's made. However it's not really all that easy to prove, seeing as they never bothered. IF you 'follow' him on at least one of the seven weibos, apparently.
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Sep 18, 2012 23:42
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It is not correct to say that Japan has never apologized. It is acceptable to dispute the sincerity of these apologies, however. Wikipedia has a decent summary. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan EDIT: My personal perspective is that China has no business demanding an apology until they apologize for the invasion of Vietnam in 1979.
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Sep 18, 2012 23:44
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Longanimitas posted:It is not correct to say that Japan has never apologized. It is acceptable to dispute the sincerity of these apologies, however. Wikipedia has a decent summary. Iunno, usually in an apology you: 1) Acknowledge what you did wrong 2) Apologize for doing it 3) Say with words and show with actions that you are not gonna do it again and your apologetic words actually had meaning. Japan's got war records, make a laundry list of all the horrible poo poo they did that was not "normal war" stuff. Apologize specifically for it. Offer to make ammends to the surviving victims (instead of pretending they don't exist), ban the right wingers in the same fashion that nazis are banned in germany. And war criminals don't get shrines. The Vietnam invasion in 1979 - it was short, it was targetted, there were not crazy war crimes and it was more or less strictly military-related.
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Sep 19, 2012 00:01
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Longanimitas posted:Even if the Japanese government were to apologize again the PRC still would not let go of this extremely useful political football. It is used frequently to distract the Chinese people from their real, government-created problems. Until you admit that you did something wrong to yourselves, you can't really face it. America's admitted it, largely, about slavery. Not so much about what we did to the Native Americans, but we've admitted it about slavery. And slowly, we're healing. Japan kind of doesn't admit it, points out how they were horribly hurt by the nuclear bombs falling, and pays yearly tribute to the equivalent of Nathan Bedford Forrest's tomb. (Speaking of, say, his actions in re the Battle of Fort Pillow.) I don't think it's healthy for a culture to do that. But that's my personal opinion on matters.
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Sep 19, 2012 00:01
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Pro-PRC Laowai posted:The Vietnam invasion in 1979 - it was short, it was targetted, there were not crazy war crimes and it was more or less strictly military-related. It was meant to distract the people at a time of political vulnerability and resulted in many thousands of meaningless deaths. It was completely inexcusable. My point still stands. Hell, Mao caused more suffering for the Chinese people than the Japanese did. It's silly to stand on this apology platform because every country has things they should apologize for but fail to do so.
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Sep 19, 2012 00:18
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Longanimitas posted:EDIT: My personal perspective is that China has no business demanding an apology until they apologize for the invasion of Vietnam in 1979. Hell, I'd settle for the Party apologising to the Chinese people for the 1970s.
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Sep 19, 2012 00:39
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Longanimitas posted:It was meant to distract the people at a time of political vulnerability and resulted in many thousands of meaningless deaths. It was completely inexcusable. My point still stands. Hell, Mao caused more suffering for the Chinese people than the Japanese did. It's silly to stand on this apology platform because every country has things they should apologize for but fail to do so. Not every country does amazingly horrible poo poo that made even the nazis cringe.
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Sep 19, 2012 00:43
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Saying that the Chinese have no right to demand an apology because ~Mao~, is like a rapist saying he doesn't have to apologize to a victim because she was raped and beaten by their dad.
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Sep 19, 2012 00:51
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Eej posted:Saying that the Chinese have no right to demand an apology because ~Mao~, is like a rapist saying he doesn't have to apologize to a victim because she was raped and beaten by their dad. I'm saying the Party (not China) a) has no right to demand an apology until they own up to their own crimes and b) had no interest in an apology anyway, given that they hush up any and all conciliatory gestures Japan has already made.
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Sep 19, 2012 01:15
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Pro-PRC Laowai posted:Iunno, usually in an apology you: I'd say that in the wikipedia entry 1.) The Japanese did acknowledge that they caused great suffering and pain in Asia. Probably not specific enough? Still a blanket statement like that should be acceptable. 2.) They do say that they feel remorse and apologize. 3.) That's probably impossible for any country.
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Sep 19, 2012 01:39
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So Japan would show the horrors of WW2 won't happen again by handing over some rocks with natural gas under them? Okay.
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Sep 19, 2012 01:59
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Nobody can guarantee anything won't happen in the future. Germany can't even guarantee that they won't go apeshit again and fingerfuck every country in its immediate vicinity sometime in the future. How the gently caress farther do you want Japan to go than loving renouncing war in its constitution and having five trazillion US bases on its territory?
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Sep 19, 2012 02:05
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It really doesn't matter if they apologize 1000 more times or not at all. The Chinese government would never allow its people to hear it and become more sympathetic towards Japan, because then what enemy would they easily be able to unite the people against to draw attention away from themselves?
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Sep 19, 2012 02:11
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Vladimir Putin posted:Nobody can guarantee anything won't happen in the future. Germany can't even guarantee that they won't go apeshit again and fingerfuck every country in its immediate vicinity sometime in the future. How the gently caress farther do you want Japan to go than loving renouncing war in its constitution and having five trazillion US bases on its territory? There is a bit of a double standard in how the holocaust is acknowledged in the western world versus Japan's war crimes though. Every high school kid in the U.S. probably knows about the Bataan death march or has at least heard about it. However, Japan's other WW2 "recreational" activities that went on in China is much less well known. Now compare that with knowledge of the holocaust. China is a bit like the USSR in a way. It's still considered an enemy or rival country in some circles so people are quick to dismiss historical grievances as somehow deserving even though people aren't going to come out and portray it like that. Mao was a scumbag but it still doesn't somehow detract from the gravity of the atrocities of WW2. It's possible to acknowledge bad things happened without giving the CCP political ammunition too. Japan really hasn't done a whole lot of sincere apologizing. It's hard to say the government has apologized when it's a constant troll point in Japanese politics with P.M.'s visiting WW2 war memorial shrines and making certain politically incorrect statements after giving apologies to Korea and China. This would be like Merkel going to a mausoleum containing the ashes of Himmler, Hitler, and Goring after apologizing about the holocaust to Israel and Jews worldwide. Modus Operandi fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Sep 19, 2012 |
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Sep 19, 2012 02:18
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I think a sincere apology from Japan would go a long way to remedy the constant issues between Japan and its neighbours. And by sincere apology I mean some sort of law that requires Japanese school texts to deal with the atrocities the country committed as fact rather than "some historians argue...", reparations for the descendants of victims of Japanese war crimes, and perhaps doing something about that pesky Yasukuni Shrine.Modus Operandi posted:There is a bit of a double standard in how the holocaust is acknowledged in the western world versus Japan's war crimes though. Every high school kid in the U.S. probably knows about the Bataan death march or has at least heard about it. However, Japan's other WW2 "recreational" activities that went on in China is much less well known. Now compare that with knowledge of the holocaust. The Republic of China was America's ally during the war, so I'm not sure why these claims would be viewed with suspicion? I think it's mostly ignorance of history and apathy about anything that doesn't happen in America or Europe. NewtGoongrich fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Sep 19, 2012 |
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Sep 19, 2012 02:20
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NewtGoongrich posted:
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Sep 19, 2012 02:28
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Pro-PRC Laowai posted:Not just that, but they refuse to even acknowledge that it was a real thing. And when stuff came out from the soviet side, it was all dismissed as "propaganda". Japan isn't one person. Germany was worse to its neighbors than Japan was, but doesn't suffer nearly the same lingering resentment, because they made it taboo to pretend that they did nothing wrong. They ran the offenders out of office and never let the worst ones back. They made it illegal to openly celebrate that part of their past. Japan did not. (Or the occupation did not, however you want to look at it.) They've got rallies of morons almost every day that would make international headlines if they happened in Germany. So a government or specific parties in Japan can apologize until they're blue in the face but there will always be someone else undoing that apology, or some nationalist rear end to kiss in a way that gives the finger to the mainland.
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Sep 19, 2012 02:32
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Pro-PRC Laowai posted:Not every country does amazingly horrible poo poo that made even the nazis cringe. Yeah, but China directly supported Pol Pot, who was objectively worse than Hitler in every way. You don't really have outs here, the Chinese Communist Party is in no position to be demanding apologies from anybody.
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Sep 19, 2012 02:34
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 When we were needed, we were there. It is true we served under the man that later became Mao's enemy, but when we were there, we fought for China and China's freedom, not that man. Do they tell the story of the Flying Tigers in Chinese schools?
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Sep 19, 2012 02:36
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Longanimitas posted:Yeah, but China directly supported Pol Pot, who was objectively worse than Hitler in every way. You don't really have outs here, the Chinese Communist Party is in no position to be demanding apologies from anybody. US supported Pol Pot directly as well.
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Sep 19, 2012 02:36
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Longanimitas posted:Yeah, but China directly supported Pol Pot, who was objectively worse than Hitler in every way. You don't really have outs here, the Chinese Communist Party is in no position to be demanding apologies from anybody.
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Sep 19, 2012 02:40
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Warcabbit posted:
quote:A Flying Tigers Memorial is located in the village of Zhijiang, Hunan Province, China and is the only museum in the world dedicated exclusively to the Flying Tigers. The building is a steel and marble structure, with wide sweeping steps leading up to a platform with columns holding up the memorial's sweeping roof; on its back wall, etched in black marble, are the names of all members of the AVG, 75th Fighter Squadron, and 14th Air Force who died in China. In 2005, the city of Kunming held a ceremony memorializing the history of the Flying Tigers in China. The Memorial Cemetery to Anti-Japanese Aviator Martyrs in Nanjing, China features a wall listing the names of Flying Tiger pilots and other pilots who defended China in World War II, and has several unmarked graves for such American pilots I was actually on that flight in 2005 when they flew into Beijing. It was kind of a big deal.
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Sep 19, 2012 02:41
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Warcabbit posted:
Can't speak for the other side of the strait, but we still have at least one statue of Clare Chennault on one of our air force bases, and have marching songs about the Flying Tigers. One of those vestigial things that still lingers in the ROCAF.
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