|
I just like being able to see them. It's less of an intrusion/interruption that way. Besides, RPGs have had random battles since the beginning. A little innovation is not a bad thing, decades later.
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 07:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 09:10 |
|
|
Adopting something that people did 15 years ago in some of the best RPGs ever is only an innovation if you are reheating Dragon Quest.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 07:10
|
|
|
The White Dragon posted:FF9 was good about it and generally had two encounters per screen even in the endgame dungeons (one or fewer on short screens). Tales of Phantasia was the worst game about this I ever played and you encountered an enemy almost every four steps in the final dungeon. Tales of Phantasia SNES is the only RPG I've ever played in which I got to the level cap through no effort on my part. Defiance Industries posted:Adopting something that people did 15 years ago in some of the best RPGs ever is only an innovation if you are reheating Dragon Quest. But some of the best RPGs ever had random encounters? Also, there have been RPGs without random encounters since the NES era. It's never been about technical limitations, it's always been a deliberate design choice.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 07:12
|
|
|
Your typical RPG is an emulsion of discretely separated combat and exploration. Having two different modes of play and switching between them creates problems when the player's interest in those respective modes is disproportionate to the time spent on them. Invisible random encounters are bad when they interrupt gameplay content, but they are good when they constitute gameplay content. Whether they're an irritation or just an obstacle depends on the design of the dungeon, on the encounters' frequency, complexity, variety, difficulty, and duration, and on what the player is attempting to do at the time. Invisible random encounters are highly cost-effective and can be as satisfying as any less abstract mechanic given sufficiently thoughtful design. Some RPGs are more thoughtfully designed than others.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 07:14
|
|
|
Pyroxene Stigma posted:I just like being able to see them. It's less of an intrusion/interruption that way. Chrono Trigger did it right. Then Chrono Cross mimicked it. Then everyone else forgot for 10 years until FF12. People rag on FF13, but it used the Chrono Trigger formula of avoidable battles with enemies you can see but still surprising you at times. It was good of 12 and 13 to do that, it's a necessary and a good evolution of the jrpg engine. Mister Roboto fucked around with this message at 07:17 on Sep 20, 2012 |
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 07:15
|
|
|
Mister Roboto posted:Chrono Trigger did it right. Then Chrono Cross mimicked it. Tales of Destiny did the same, and it avoids going full anime like newer Tales games. (Only because it's older, most likely. But I thought the writing was entertaining and the story wasn't bad, plus it doesn't take itself very seriously.) I don't think people forgot, it's just more work.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 07:21
|
|
|
Bongo Bill posted:Your typical RPG is an emulsion of discretely separated combat and exploration. Having two different modes of play and switching between them creates problems when the player's interest in those respective modes is disproportionate to the time spent on them. Pretty much exactly. In Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, the combat is pretty much the game. Any puzzles in the dungeons are short and rather arbitrary. They exist to provide long areas to walk through as monsters try and kill you. Complaining about getting into fights in those games is basically complaining about playing the game period. Compare to say, Golden Sun or Tales of Vesperia. The dungeons often have more complex puzzle elements. They also suspend encounters/have a limited amount of them, so the random fights don't interrupter you trying to solve things.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 07:23
|
|
|
Mister Roboto posted:Same with Faith, they become too religious and they go off to join the church, but there's no danger in being an atheist ( Dr Pepper posted:Tales of Phantasia SNES is the only RPG I've ever played in which I got to the level cap through no effort on my part.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 07:29
|
|
|
My Lovely Horse posted:You're going to suck at magic though. Not that bad for your melee fighters since it does mean enemy magic will affect them less, but then again that goes for your healing spells too. Who needs healing spells when you have Auto-Potion or Blade Grasp?  (Though lack of buffs like Haste is a legitimate argument, at least until you get your hands on a/some Masamune(s) to Draw Out.)
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 07:35
|
|
|
The real question is: Who needs healing spells when you've already killed the enemy. I made Ramnza a Samurai/Black Mage in my last playthrough. It ended in slaughter.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 07:38
|
|
|
Focus/Accumulate + grinding JP + unarmed Ninja = 280 damage per hand once I was done. Never thought I'd see that kinda damage in Mandalia Plain. It isn't feasible for any storyline battle, I was just a little shocked and really amused.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 07:45
|
|
|
I was very disappointed that FFT PSP did NOT have any extra super battles included. The storyline additions were very nice, but man, if there was ever a game that would've been perfect for ridiculous superbosses that required ridiculous endgame abilities...
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 07:49
|
|
|
Who needs healing spells when one of the base classes can already throw healing items from a distance with no charge time and no random chance to miss?
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 07:49
|
|
|
Who needs healing when you only field Orlandu and just drain health like a bearded Dracula?
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 07:51
|
|
|
Defiance Industries posted:Who needs healing when you only field Orlandu and just drain health like a bearded Dracula? Transylvanian God Cid? I can dig it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 07:53
|
|
|
Sounds like you guys need to try FFT 1.3.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 07:55
|
|
|
Toshimo posted:Sounds like you guys need to try FFT 1.3. No. No we don't.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 08:22
|
|
|
Isn't that the version that was remade with the mechanics designed for people with autism?
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 08:43
|
|
|
No, it's the one redesigned to be extremely difficult and require pretty in-depth knowledge of FFT's mechanics.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 08:47
|
|
|
That's what I said.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 08:52
|
|
|
Kyrosiris posted:No, it's the one redesigned to be extremely difficult and require pretty in-depth knowledge of FFT's mechanics. Actually that's not entirely accurate even by the mod creator's own admission. The thing with that mod is for one is makes a boatload of changes to FFT base mechanics and on top of that the extreme difficultly essentially makes all strategies you learned playing vanilla FFT completely useless. The game requires you to master an entire new set of strategies that mainly revolve around "sandbagging" which is a term coined by the 1.3 community which refers to constantly reviving fallen party members in order to survive. The enemy AI will do this too so almost every battle is one of attrition. It sucks and I hate it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 08:58
|
|
|
Yeah, fair enough. I was more just annoyed by the unneeded ableist bullshit. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 09:02
|
|
|
Toshimo posted:Sounds like you guys need to try FFT 1.3. Someone tried an LP of it; it broke them. We don't.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 11:10
|
|
|
Mister Roboto posted:Chrono Trigger did it right.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 12:48
|
|
|
You know what really did it right, years before Chrono Trigger? FF Mystic Quest. No surprises, other than a couple gimmick dungeons where enemies were invisible until you found the proper item. You could skip a good portion of the enemies, especially since most of the treasure was useless, or you could fight everything and be a badass. And the best part? Enemies don't respawn in that game, so if you end up having to backtrack, no triggering the same enemy trigger spots. I'm looking at you, CTDS bonus fetch quest dungeon.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 12:57
|
|
|
Random encounters have a pretty distinct purpose but they don't belong in every game. Placed fixed encounters or even semi-fixed encounters like in Earthbound/Chrono Trigger are fine when the idea of a dungeon is more linear and less focused on resource consumption instead of resource conservation. The problem they have is that they give a fairly limited and strict encounter progression. They work for a certain kind of design and not for others. One of my personal favorite mixes of the two is actually Etrian Oddyssey. EO is a dungeon crawler based around slowly delving through a large dungeon over the course of multiple trips. You have to balance your resources with progress and the gradual wave of invisible enemies is necessary to make that meaningful. However, at the same time, it has extremely powerful mini-bosses called FOEs who are visible on the map and who you have to avoid, trick your way past, or just flat-out beat.This lets players avoid enemies when it is meaningful but still allows for the "meat grinder" level design.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 13:27
|
|
|
voltron lion force posted:Actually that's not entirely accurate even by the mod creator's own admission. The thing with that mod is for one is makes a boatload of changes to FFT base mechanics and on top of that the extreme difficultly essentially makes all strategies you learned playing vanilla FFT completely useless. The game requires you to master an entire new set of strategies that mainly revolve around "sandbagging" which is a term coined by the 1.3 community which refers to constantly reviving fallen party members in order to survive. The enemy AI will do this too so almost every battle is one of attrition. To my understanding, the AI is virtually untouched. Vanilla FFT's AI was hamstrung by random lovely equipment and skills. By giving the AI access to proper gear/skills, you pretty much unleash an AI that was so good that Square had to dumb it down so people didn't throw their Playstations. I mean, I'm all for Vanilla FFT. It's a great game with a great story. But, you could plow through it with a pretty rudimentary party, especially after you got a couple of strong named dudes, like Orlandu. Dorter and the Ramza solo fight were moderately difficult, but the rest of the game was pretty cake. If people are interested in looking so hard at Brave/Faith min/maxing, job synergies, and mass JP through superior Yelling, I was just suggesting something that lets you really give the game a thorough workout. Yes, it's hard as balls, but that's something I wish was an optional challenge mode in every game of the series. Sure as hell beats out grinding Oretoises, rewriting the Sphere Grid, or farming Sources.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 18:31
|
|
|
voltron lion force posted:Actually that's not entirely accurate even by the mod creator's own admission. The thing with that mod is for one is makes a boatload of changes to FFT base mechanics and on top of that the extreme difficultly essentially makes all strategies you learned playing vanilla FFT completely useless. The game requires you to master an entire new set of strategies that mainly revolve around "sandbagging" which is a term coined by the 1.3 community which refers to constantly reviving fallen party members in order to survive. The enemy AI will do this too so almost every battle is one of attrition. There is no strategy in vanilla FFT (grinding for hours at Mandalia Plains doesn't count as strategy)
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 18:36
|
|
|
Today, for the first time in the god knows how many years I've owned FFIX, I pleased 100 out of 100 nobles. I always just figured that there was one rear end in a top hat noble who hated everything but I guess you have to do an encore? Got my Moonstone anyway.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 18:42
|
|
|
Toshimo posted:To my understanding, the AI is virtually untouched. Vanilla FFT's AI was hamstrung by random lovely equipment and skills. By giving the AI access to proper gear/skills, you pretty much unleash an AI that was so good that Square had to dumb it down so people didn't throw their Playstations. On the other hand, petulant rear end in a top hat who makes "unbeatable" bosses and throws a shitfit like a baby when they're beaten.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 18:43
|
|
|
Toshimo posted:To my understanding, the AI is virtually untouched. Vanilla FFT's AI was hamstrung by random lovely equipment and skills. By giving the AI access to proper gear/skills, you pretty much unleash an AI that was so good that Square had to dumb it down so people didn't throw their Playstations. I mean, I'm all for Vanilla FFT. It's a great game with a great story. But, you could plow through it with a pretty rudimentary party, especially after you got a couple of strong named dudes, like Orlandu. Dorter and the Ramza solo fight were moderately difficult, but the rest of the game was pretty cake. If people are interested in looking so hard at Brave/Faith min/maxing, job synergies, and mass JP through superior Yelling, I was just suggesting something that lets you really give the game a thorough workout. Yes, it's hard as balls, but that's something I wish was an optional challenge mode in every game of the series. Sure as hell beats out grinding Oretoises, rewriting the Sphere Grid, or farming Sources. Yea I believe you're right about the AI. They have always been programmed to value survival above all else and 1.3 just gives them a much greater set of tools to keep themselves going. FFT actually has some really awesome AI in that they actively try to win the match. Here's the thing though, for 99% of FFT players, 1.3 is just too hard to be any fun. The margin for error in any given match is razor thin and there is literally no way to give yourself an advantage. Leveling up actually hurts you more than helps you due to the scaling equipment and story battles. The FFT mod community is pretty strong and there are a lot better mods out there that increase the difficulty, rebalance the game and manage to be a lot more fun than 1.3. LFT is a popular one around here (the creator is a goon) and I enjoyed FFT+ quite a bit. Hell even the EZ mode version of 1.3 is infinitely more playable and a lot of the balance changes are actually quite good. gigglefeimer posted:There is no strategy in vanilla FFT (grinding for hours at Mandalia Plains doesn't count as strategy) I mean it does you've just played it a lot and now you think every strategy is a total no brainer.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 18:43
|
|
|
Dr Snofeld posted:Today, for the first time in the god knows how many years I've owned FFIX, I pleased 100 out of 100 nobles. I always just figured that there was one rear end in a top hat noble who hated everything but I guess you have to do an encore? Got my Moonstone anyway. The thing about that event is how ludicrously hard it is. I think last time I played on an emulator and slowed it down, and it was still tricky.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 19:07
|
|
|
Re: Hamedo the AI is really predictable in who it targets so you can make your 99 Brave Hamedo user vulnerable or way up front and the AI will fecklessly send its dudes into the meat grinder all day.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 19:10
|
|
|
Boten Anna posted:The thing about that event is how ludicrously hard it is. I think last time I played on an emulator and slowed it down, and it was still tricky. PSP, second attempt.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 19:12
|
|
|
What was the moonstone ever useful for anyways? I remember getting it when I first played FFIX after multiple tries, but I don't think I ever used the thing.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 19:27
|
|
|
Sex_Ferguson posted:What was the moonstone ever useful for anyways? I remember getting it when I first played FFIX after multiple tries, but I don't think I ever used the thing. Changes Carbuncle's summon ability to Pearl Light (Protect + Shell) It also taught Beast Killer + Shell.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 19:29
|
|
|
Sex_Ferguson posted:What was the moonstone ever useful for anyways? I remember getting it when I first played FFIX after multiple tries, but I don't think I ever used the thing. If you get it right at the start then you can learn Protect for Dagger and Beast Killer for Zidane earlier than normal. Moonstones are used in the friendly monster chain too, and I think that they set the damage of an eidolon, though I don't know which one.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 19:29
|
|
|
Dr Snofeld posted:If you get it right at the start then you can learn Protect for Dagger and Beast Killer for Zidane earlier than normal. Moonstones are used in the friendly monster chain too, and I think that they set the damage of an eidolon, though I don't know which one. Oh man, that would suck if Moonstones contributed to an Eidolon's attack strength, you can get like two in the entire game, and one of them is from pleasing 100 nobles.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 19:48
|
|
|
The White Dragon posted:Oh man, that would suck if Moonstones contributed to an Eidolon's attack strength, you can get like two in the entire game, and one of them is from pleasing 100 nobles. I've never ever bothered with eidolons because getting the gems to power them up seems like such a pain. I don't even know how you'd go about getting 100 topaz or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 19:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 09:10 |
|
|
Dr Snofeld posted:I've never ever bothered with eidolons because getting the gems to power them up seems like such a pain. I don't even know how you'd go about getting 100 topaz or whatever. Mostly from synthesizing them, making a Topaz takes I think an Ore and an Antidote in Dagguereo (all the gems are Ore + Status Curative). You get so much goddamn ore from random drops anyway the game is basically telling you to do it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2012 20:12
|
|