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penguinmambo posted:Lightning is weird in that I'm surprised they haven't tried to cuten her up yet. It's still sort of novel to have a jrpg protagonist lady who is sorta serious and surly without her entire characterization being like that (basically the detached 'cool beauty' type Japanese schoolgirls like). I think that affects a lot in how people read Lightning. If Lightning was a dude we'd just see her a "sorta detached JRPG protagonist dude'. But because she manages that as a lady, which we dont see in games, people (especially teenagers) read her as this extremely capable and unflappable badass. I wonder how much of people reading Lightning as a capable badass woman has to do with her having zero romantic stuff going on(in FFXII at least, haven't touched the sequel yet). With how often the important women in JRPGs(including FFs) end up playing second fiddle to their own romantic interests it was kind of refreshing to have a lead female protagonist have a story that doesn't eventually involve her hooking up with a guy.
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Oct 4, 2012 21:37
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Azure_Horizon posted:Gated character growth prevents you from steamrolling the whole game. See: FFXIII-2 and no character growth gating. But outside of maybe the levels in Pulse, the linearity and set enemies pretty much prevent you from being able overlevel anyway. So what then, is the point of arbitrarily gating the growth? For what it's worth, the linearity is pretty great in that aspect - if a boss isn't dying then, chances are, the player is simply using the wrong strategy. I wonder where the developers' logic is in making a battle system with each character being more proficient as a different class, and then not allowing you to have acess to all of them till the tail-end of the game.
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Oct 4, 2012 21:37
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Pesky Splinter posted:But outside of maybe the levels in Pulse, the linearity and set enemies pretty much prevent you from being able overlevel anyway. So what then, is the point of arbitrarily gating the growth? For what it's worth, the linearity is pretty great in that aspect - if a boss isn't dying then, chances are, the player is simply using the wrong strategy. And then making it prohibitively expensive to put any points into any class they aren't "specialized" in, so you don't do it anyway.
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Oct 4, 2012 21:46
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Camel Pimp posted:And then making it prohibitively expensive to put any points into any class they aren't "specialized" in, so you don't do it anyway. Except there are positives to sending characters down alternate paths; other characters get spells that others wouldn't know (for Ravager/Medic), Snow is the best Daze user, Fang gets all-party buff spells as a Synergist, etc. They're meant for the post-game, as the main specialties are tied to each character, and make sense... Hope/Vanille make lovely Commandos anyway.
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Oct 4, 2012 21:55
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penguinmambo posted:Lightning is weird in that I'm surprised they haven't tried to cuten her up yet. Brother Entropy posted:it was kind of refreshing to have a lead female protagonist have a story that doesn't eventually involve her hooking up with a guy.
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Oct 5, 2012 02:00
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I definitely prefer Lightning as a frigid woman that hates everyone around her. Like Squall, drat near everyone she has to be in contact with is completely insufferable.
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Oct 5, 2012 02:02
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I am pretty sure they've said Lightning Returns is going to feature a bunch of costumes so I fully expect her to be wearing a schoolgirl outfit in that game before all is said and done.
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Oct 5, 2012 02:33
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Brother Entropy posted:I wonder how much of people reading Lightning as a capable badass woman has to do with her having zero romantic stuff going on(in FFXII at least, haven't touched the sequel yet). With how often the important women in JRPGs(including FFs) end up playing second fiddle to their own romantic interests it was kind of refreshing to have a lead female protagonist have a story that doesn't eventually involve her hooking up with a guy. I don't really see this all that much in FF to be honest. You could say Rosa falls into this because her defining factor is how much she means to Cecil but Leina/Faris and Terra/Celes don't really play out very cliched. You can make a case for Dagger, Yuna, and Aeris but all of them stand apart from their male love interest for a majority of their screen time and it's more on the male character to play up the love part. gently caress Rinoa though.
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Oct 5, 2012 03:13
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Belzac posted:I don't really see this all that much in FF to be honest. You could say Rosa falls into this because her defining factor is how much she means to Cecil but Leina/Faris and Terra/Celes don't really play out very cliched. You can make a case for Dagger, Yuna, and Aeris but all of them stand apart from their male love interest for a majority of their screen time and it's more on the male character to play up the love part. Well, I can't talk too much about Dagger since I'm only now playing through FF9, but there was kind of a trend starting with FF7 where the leading lady seems like she'd be more important within the context of the world(either because she's the last of her race or daughter of the last guy to stop Sin) but then the leading man who seemed like just some guy ended up being just as, or even more important than her. It's not so much a 'defining factor' thing as much as a 'who's in the spotlight' thing. I haven't played far enough to know for sure, but I'm assuming Zidane's gonna end up a similar story. This isn't really a criticism of FF or anything, just a trend that's gotten kinda stale and I like that FFXIII didn't keep it up.
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Oct 5, 2012 03:38
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Belzac posted:I don't really see this all that much in FF to be honest. You could say Rosa falls into this because her defining factor is how much she means to Cecil but Leina/Faris and Terra/Celes don't really play out very cliched. You can make a case for Dagger, Yuna, and Aeris but all of them stand apart from their male love interest for a majority of their screen time and it's more on the male character to play up the love part. You know, if I had the time/patience to figure it out, it'd be interesting to go back and see what Final Fantasies pass the Bechdel Test.
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Oct 5, 2012 03:42
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Boten Anna posted:You know, if I had the time/patience to figure it out, it'd be interesting to go back and see what Final Fantasies pass the Bechdel Test. v: No it doesn't require that, because that'd be silly. There just has to be at least one conversation between two women about something other than a man. Endorph fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Oct 5, 2012 |
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Oct 5, 2012 03:48
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It depends, does the Bachel test require the female characters never talk about a male? If so, then probably none. If not, I think 9 passes and technically 8 does. Quistis yelling at Rinoa for her stupid plan to trap the Sorceress is a thing that happened.
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Oct 5, 2012 03:50
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Endorph posted:Pretty much all of them with an actual plot, but the Bechdel test isn't some sort of Feminist/Not Feminist Determination Machine, it's just a thing somebody made to point out a trend in media that nobody actually notices. Passing it or not passing it doesn't mean much on a case-by-case basis. I have the sneaky suspicion that 4 doesn't. Fuckit let me just do it off the cuff: 1 - All PCs are implied to be male, and all dialogue is people talking to the PCs, so FAIL 2 - I don't know, but there's a female party member so maybe? 3 - The original has the same problem as 1 does, so FAIL, the remake might but the only dialogue from the main party I know of from the beginning is mainly one of the female characters talking to the male characters about her dad so...? 4 - I bet it doesn't, or it barely squeaks by, but I'd have play again or think long and hard. 5 - Never actually finished so I couldn't say, and also muddled by the fact that the game seems to think that Faris is "really" a woman but I humbly disagree  6 - Two main characters are women and neither's motivation nor ultimate fulfillment in life comes from finding a man to woo, so it probably passes, though I couldn't tell you where offhand. PASS 7 - I really can't think of a scene where the women talk to each other, and Tifa talks a lot about Barret and Cloud, but I might be missing something. Do Yuffie and Tifa have an exchange about Materia? Does it count when it's secret/side content?  8 - Rinoa probably talks to Ultimecia about Time Kompression or something. But mostly whines about Squall and ugh I hate this game so much. 9 - Probably something between Dagger and Freya? 10 - I bet it doesn't as the entire game centers around Tidus' ghost penis. 11 - I've talked to npcs and pcs alike about things that aren't men, so sure! 12 - Maybe Fraan and the Viera chief don't talk about how Baltheir isn't allowed at some point? MISANDRY Otherwise it's a pretty dudey world, really. 13 - Sucks, but there is an implied lesbian relationship between two party members which is more or less an automatic pass. 14 - Same as XI Momomo posted:It depends, does the Bachel test require the female characters never talk about a male? If so, then probably none. If not, I think 9 passes and technically 8 does. Quistis yelling at Rinoa for her stupid plan to trap the Sorceress is a thing that happened. No just that they do. In the "canonical" version, it's at all, though I prefer that a significant exchange takes place and don't think it really counts if you have to argue about it.
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Oct 5, 2012 04:00
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In 6, Terra and Celes have a scene in Narshe where they are the only ones with lines, but the other characters are present in the background. Also the first Mobliz visit, if you don't get Sabin. The real catch is that Terra and Celes are both in your party in the WoB only during two specific spans of time: immediately before the three party fight in Narshe (where the scene in question takes place) is the first one. Then Terra leaves for the whole MagiTek adventure, and after that Celes leaves and you get Terra back. Celes doesn't return to the plot until Thamasa, and she isn't playable until the Floating Continent. So yeah.
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Oct 5, 2012 04:07
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Boten Anna posted:9 - Probably something between Dagger and Freya? Nah, Dagger and Eiko have a number of conversations that are solely about Summoner culture and history and poo poo. Freya, on the other hand, has like, three conversations in the entire game where she doesn't  over Fratley and that's because they aren't about her. They're about Amarant.
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Oct 5, 2012 04:11
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FF4 also has Rosa coaxing Rydia to cast Fire, so it squeaks by. FF2... has nothing. I'm almost positive. I think Maria has one line to Layla about joining them or something, but that's not a conversation.
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Oct 5, 2012 04:15
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The White Dragon posted:Nah, Dagger and Eiko have a number of conversations that are solely about Summoner culture and history and poo poo. Sure would have been nice if Fratley was at all a meaningful or interesting character as opposed to "guy who shows up once early in the game with loving amnesia and then fucks right off until the ending."
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Oct 5, 2012 04:19
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Poor Freya. She could've been like, the coolest character in the game, but they ended up doing absolutely nothing with her. Instead that title goes to I dunno, Beatrix I guess.
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Oct 5, 2012 04:28
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I was going to say, does it have to be a one on one conversation? Otherwise 4 has several significant interactions between Rosa and young Rydia, but the nature of the game is that the entire party is present for pretty much everything. If the requirement is that both women be adults, maybe not because adult Rydia doesn't contribute much after she joins other than to be the object of Edge's proto-Edgar creepery.
Dross fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Oct 5, 2012 |
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Oct 5, 2012 04:28
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Dross posted:I was going to say, does it have to be a one on one conversation? Otherwise 4 has several significant interactions between Rosa and young Rydia, but the nature of the game is that the entire party is present for pretty much everything. If the requirement is that both women be adults, maybe not because adult Rydia doesn't contribute much after she joins other than to be the object of Edge's proto-Edgar creepery. Yeah that's why I don't think FF4 passes unless I'm forgetting something major; as I recall Rosa just gives Rydia some encouragement and Rydia doesn't say anything, and just the whole game has a weird chivalry-in-the-sexist-way vibe to it that isn't nearly as pronounced in the other entries in the series. Before someone goes nuts that's not to say I don't like the game, just that it's arguably the least feminist in the entire series with regards to how the women are portrayed in it.
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Oct 5, 2012 05:16
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Boten Anna posted:10 - I bet it doesn't as the entire game centers around Tidus' ghost penis. Pretty sure Lulu has conversations with Yuna about "chin up; be an upbeat summoner even when you're sending the souls of half of a village nearly wiped out by Sin," or Rikku has a conversation with Yuna about why Yuna shouldn't die willingly. I'm guessing 10 passes pretty easily. Fran definitely has conversations with her sisters about leaving the Wood and whether that makes you a failure of a Viera. Ashe spends very little time chatting about men, but I can't think of many scenes where she wasn't talking to Vaan, Balthier, Basch, Vosler, Judge Ghis, Reddas, Ondore, Al-Cid, Larsa, the Gran Kiltias, the Occuria, Dr. Cid, or Vayne. Poor neglected Fran and Penelo.
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Oct 5, 2012 05:42
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I've been playing Tactics (I've never gotten past the first few battles) and so far I'm enjoying it, and now I feel even better about enjoying it because it passes the test in the very first scene!
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Oct 5, 2012 05:51
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VII starts poorly: pretty sure the first candidate is Tifa and Aeris in Don Corneo's mansion. Talking about Cloud. However, I'm not familiar enough with the script to say it never passes. I think it's pretty stupid for RPGs anyway, the genre is known for objectifying women and this is a shallow defense. The exceptions are notable, but few and far in between.
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Oct 5, 2012 06:29
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Momomo posted:It depends, does the Bachel test require the female characters never talk about a male? If so, then probably none. If not, I think 9 passes and technically 8 does. Quistis yelling at Rinoa for her stupid plan to trap the Sorceress is a thing that happened. 9 has Eiko going with Dagger to the Water Shrine specifically so she can ask her about Zidane, so I'd say that's out.
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Oct 5, 2012 06:45
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Endorph posted:Pretty much all of them with an actual plot, but the Bechdel test isn't some sort of Feminist/Not Feminist Determination Machine, it's just a thing somebody made to point out a trend in media that nobody actually notices. Passing it or not passing it doesn't mean much on a case-by-case basis. Every post after that posted:What the hell, people.
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Oct 5, 2012 06:59
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Hedera Helix posted:What the hell, people. Welcome to the Final Fantasy Megathread, on that note Pyroxene Stigma posted:the genre is known for objectifying women Compared to what genre, exactly? There are at least two games in this series (6 and 13) with not-terrible female protagonists. I can't think of too many shooters or third-person action games that meet that criteria.
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Oct 5, 2012 07:09
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How are y'all having feminism chat without mentioning Final Fantasy X-2? Grrrl Power! What can I do for you♥ Whooooo!
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Oct 5, 2012 07:12
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K. So, just beat FFVIII and let me get this straight... At the end of the battle, Ultimecia goes back to give Matron Edea her powers... who at some point accidentally gives her powers to Rinoa... who probably lives for so long she gains a Russian accent, builds a castle full of gently caress, and becomes the villain we know as Ultimecia and attempts to Kompress all Time but then eventually gets killed by Squall's gang of SeeD so she goes back in time... And this is all Squall's destiny because Cid already knows since Edea told him about future Squall so it must happens and it's all just one huge time loop of gently caress. If I'm even a little bit right then 
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Oct 5, 2012 08:41
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Officially there's no connection between Ultimecia and Rinoa, Ultimecia is just some random sorceress who decided life should be a little more  but the idea that Rinoa is Ultimecia is an old fan explanation to make the game's story a little less "fire everything at a wall and see what sticks". There's no direct proof, but it's an easy connection to make.
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Oct 5, 2012 09:09
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Brother Entropy posted:I wonder how much of people reading Lightning as a capable badass woman has to do with her having zero romantic stuff going on(in FFXII at least, haven't touched the sequel yet). With how often the important women in JRPGs(including FFs) end up playing second fiddle to their own romantic interests it was kind of refreshing to have a lead female protagonist have a story that doesn't eventually involve her hooking up with a guy. I've joked that the reason Snow was poised to hook up with Lightning's sister is because that'd usually be the job of the protagonist and his 'adopted sister/childhood friend', but for obvious reasons the writers weren't going to do that with a girl lead. More seriously, it's not that you can't have those things and still be an ok female character, I just find it very foreward-thinking someone seems to have deliberately avoided any of it, as if to completely remove all temptation. EVen the shameless Lighting merchandise stuff emphasis her coolness, not her boobs or something.Lighting doesn't really cry, at most she consoles characters who overreact (like Hope, which makes her look like a big sister and still badass), etc. I think it's the same reason Fang is incredibly easy to sell as the Sexy One, even though it's all in her attitude. It's done in a really subtley pleasant way. And for as much as people joke about X-2, while I'm sure they wouldn't touch Yuna for obvious reasons, I am kind of amazed they completely dodge any sort of romancey crap with the other two (especially if you're like me and read that game is as "pretty shoujo pap", so including a romance subplot for an extra really wouldn't have been that odd) Paine has an entirely dudebro relationship with her former party and the closest Rikku gets is a single scene of subtle flirting with the re-occuring smarmy guy that just reads humorously. Also the dumbest thing Square ever did was stomp on the R=U thing (or at least let one guy do it in one of those otaku-zines). We all knew the writers also had pet ideas on the weird love triangle in FF7, but they were smart enough to keep shut for years and let people draw their own opinions because that ambiguity is interesting. keet fucked around with this message at 09:41 on Oct 5, 2012 |
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Oct 5, 2012 09:37
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Momomo posted:Poor Freya. She could've been like, the coolest character in the game, but they ended up doing absolutely nothing with her. Instead that title goes to I dunno, Beatrix I guess. I still consider Freya the best Dragoon. That combat stance is awesome plus I preferred the way she holds her spear.
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Oct 5, 2012 10:11
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Vinchenz posted:K. So, just beat FFVIII and let me get this straight... You got most of it, yeah. Mister Roboto fucked around with this message at 14:59 on Oct 23, 2014 |
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Oct 5, 2012 10:36
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Momomo posted:Poor Freya. She could've been like, the coolest character in the game, but they ended up doing absolutely nothing with her. Instead that title goes to I dunno, Beatrix I guess. I've always liked Freya, but it really is based more on how cool she could've been than how cool she actually was. But I still love any and all dragoons, so.
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Oct 5, 2012 16:39
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So, I'm playing FFXIII-2 for the first time and I just got through chapter 4. Now, my question is: who the hell thought it'd be a good idea to copy Chrono Cross' plot?
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Oct 5, 2012 17:07
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And what's wrong with that?
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Oct 5, 2012 17:12
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Krad posted:So, I'm playing FFXIII-2 for the first time and I just got through chapter 4. Now, my question is: who the hell thought it'd be a good idea to copy Chrono Cross' plot? Chrono Cross WISHES it had a plot like XIII-2.  But seriously, I enjoyed XIII-2 a hell of a lot more than I did with CC. Maybe because the plot doesn't take itself as seriously until the very end when some horrible hosed up poo poo happens. I mean, I still have to respect SE for killing off the main character and basically admitting "welp, despite your efforts you've still failed." Kinda refreshing in a genre where HAPPY END seems to be the norm.
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Oct 5, 2012 17:22
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Dross posted:And what's wrong with that? Aside from the fact that I was already starting to get confused thanks to the disjointed narrative... nothing at all. 
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Oct 5, 2012 17:26
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Krad posted:Aside from the fact that I was already starting to get confused thanks to the disjointed narrative... nothing at all. Here is the key to understanding FFXIII-2's plot. Just turn off your ears every time they use the word "Paradox" without it discussing something very specific. Don't pay any attention to it. When they stop babbling about Paradoxes you can pay attention again because that's about the only time poo poo actually matters.
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Oct 5, 2012 17:29
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Dross posted:And what's wrong with that? Nothing at all, really!
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Oct 5, 2012 18:26
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Mister Roboto posted:You got most of it, yeah. FFVIII is really all about Squall though, and the point of Ultimecia coming out of nowhere only makes sense at the very end- Squall tells Edea to form an organization to fight Sorceresses, which leads to SeeD, which leads to the persecution of Sorceresses in the future, which leads to Ultimecia trying to achieve a world where she can live in peace, which leads to Squall telling Edea- Squall's entire life and existence are an unending loop, and Ultimecia and Squall are ultimately self-created entities, who then created the rest of the cast, bar perhaps Rinoa. Of course, this completely ignores Adel, but that's because FFVIII has a bad story.
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Oct 5, 2012 18:33
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