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VikingSkull posted:From Motor Trend: I've driven it. It's bad.
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Oct 6, 2012 18:48
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VERTiG0 posted:Also I think I'm missing something with the Camry references; is that from a commercial or something? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKRiCsZfx4k&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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Oct 6, 2012 18:50
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I love the estate version:   Except the boot, it looks like a friggin ferry boat opening : 
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Oct 6, 2012 18:52
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I'm sort of not really getting the love for the Opel Insignia. I mean, it's probably a decent car, but it's the token company car and repmobile these days, which means I meet a shitload of them on the roads. Almost every single one of them driven by a self-obsessed wanker in a suit, with a cup of coffee in one hand and a cell phone in the other.
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Oct 6, 2012 21:13
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KozmoNaut posted:I'm sort of not really getting the love for the Opel Insignia. I mean, it's probably a decent car, but it's the token company car and repmobile these days, which means I meet a shitload of them on the roads. Almost every single one of them driven by a self-obsessed wanker in a suit, with a cup of coffee in one hand and a cell phone in the other. Well most of those people here are probably Americans. It's the allure of the forbidden and European. Also, it's pretty decent looking. poo poo, if always being owned by self-obsessed wankers was a criterion, nobody would buy BMWs here in the US.
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Oct 6, 2012 21:17
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Cream_Filling posted:Well most of those people here are probably Americans. It's the allure of the forbidden and European. Also, it's pretty decent looking. Yeah, the grass is always greener and all that. It's just a bit silly, since the Insignia is far from the best sedan/wagon on the European/non-US market. There's the Ford Mondeo and Peugeot 508 for easy starters, both of which are superior in every way except for the "bu-bu-but it's not German" factor. Not to mention the cars you already get in the US, such as the 3-series, Mazda 6, Merc C-class etc. Opel has merely gone from "Welcome to Dullsville. Population: You" to "Eh, I could live with that". KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Oct 6, 2012 |
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Oct 6, 2012 21:43
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MrChips posted:Yeah, the 3er is a way better car than the Regal could ever be - especially considering I'd personally take a Sport Line or M-Sport 328 with the MT and very few options, the price point isn't all that different between them. Even the Sport Line MT without leather is within spitting distance of 40k, and if you want heated seats you have to shell out for leather. I'm an options minimalist and I was pushing 43K easily 
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Oct 6, 2012 21:47
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The Euro-wankery makes sense if you think about how cars are equipped here. You're far more likely to encounter what's an entirely utilitarian boat over in the US here having actual power and sport baked into the package. I think that's where the whole thing comes from, this idea that you'll get a Q-ship with the right option box. Let me dispel that rumor now, the cars they sell here are 99% compromised misery machines. Just because there are people who say the words "VW GTD" doesn't mean there's a magical Diesel VW we Americans can't get. It just means someone is kidding themselves. The other 1% are interesting cars almost exclusively owned by rich/semi-rich people.
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Oct 6, 2012 21:52
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KozmoNaut posted:Yeah, the grass is always greener and all that. They haven't sold Peugeot here for almost half a century, and didn't sell the Mondeo recently until now (I'm ignoring the Contour/Mystique since they aren't really recent anymore). And a big chunk of AI seems pretty drat buzzed about the new Fusion. The 3-series and Mazda 6 also enjoy excellent reputations in AI, by my reckoning. Besides, the only Opel people are really mooning over here is the wagon, and that's just because there's a whole lot of eurofetish wagon fans here (including myself). Also because basically nobody sells a midmarket, midsize wagon here, especially now that Subaru is CUVifying the Outback. The closest thing we get is the Jetta wagon or else really expensive stuff from BMW, Audi, etc. Even then, the Buicks look kind of overpriced, especially the GS. I wonder what actual transaction prices will be, though. For instance, the 3 series technically starts at like $33k, but good luck finding one that actually costs that much. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Oct 6, 2012 |
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Oct 6, 2012 22:03
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Das Volk posted:Let me dispel that rumor now, the cars they sell here are 99% compromised misery machines. Just because there are people who say the words "VW GTD" doesn't mean there's a magical Diesel VW we Americans can't get. It just means someone is kidding themselves. The other 1% are interesting cars almost exclusively owned by rich/semi-rich people. Das Volk's got a point here. Of course there are highend cars here that the US doesn't get and I see AMG Mercs, M BMWs, Porsches, Ford Focus RSs, various other hot hatches etc. and even the odd Ferrari or Maserati once in a while. But by far the vastly overwhelming majority of cars are cheap, low-displacement, high-MPG econoboxes. I'm fairly sure the average HP for all cars in Denmark is somewhere around 100, though it may actually be as high as 120 these days, what with all the ~140hp 2.0 diesels clattering around. It's probably a bit higher elsewhere in Europe, where car taxes are lower. You want some perspective? My car has 160HP and is classified as a "large family car", which is equivalent to mid-size in the US. Back when the particular engine option I have was introduced ~12 years ago, reviews referred to it as "an insurance salesman's wet dream" because it had over 2 liters of displacement and over 150HP. They hardly even dared to think about the 210HP V6 that sat above it in the range, that was for lunatics only. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in US terms, 160HP is not a lot for a mid-size car. It is here. E: VVVV quote:Here in the UK a 420bhp engine is SHOCKING EXTRAVAGANCE That's because it is extraordinarily extravagant, though. It really is more than you could ever safely use on 99.9% of public roads, the only place you would ever need that kind of power is on a closed track. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Oct 6, 2012 |
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Oct 6, 2012 22:15
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KozmoNaut posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but in US terms, 160HP is not a lot for a mid-size car. It is here. Exactly - I mean this is one of the bigger overall reasons I'm moving back to the US - a mid-size rental shitcan starts at 170hp (Pontiac G6, for example) and realistically you're looking at the 200+hp variants for a mere $8 a day. Here in the UK a 420bhp engine is SHOCKING EXTRAVAGANCE and everyone oohs and aahs at your MPG that would make your average American SUV owner happy. That said I can understand why people here like cars like this. Yes the M3 is the hairy-chested monster capable of 200MPH (indicated, with light mods, see avatar) but driving the damned thing across Europe you begin to wish for something that either had a 200L tank or a Diesel. That's where cars like the M550d start to make sense. Our own hello_spaceman made a great article about the car and I really think it captures the essence of what it's like to drive in modern Europe. Sure you can crack the 200 barrier, but at that rate you're making GPM instead of MPG, and after the 6th fillup of the day it gets pretty annoying. Cars in the UK and the EU really do need that extra efficiency gained by these "sporty diesels" and being able to haul 'arse' for long periods is really nice. I was inspired by stories of Piech driving to work but honestly that's for a very few - my fuel bill for going to Le Mans, Rheims, Freigburg, Munich and back to London was about €700. That's a shitload of money for a trip that doesn't include the Nurburgring, and when you're being paid non-American wages, that hurts.
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Oct 6, 2012 22:39
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Even the Sport Line MT without leather is within spitting distance of 40k, and if you want heated seats you have to shell out for leather. https://www.bmwconfig.com gets you a much more accurate (invoice) price. $500-$700 over invoice all day long unless M5-M6 or a new hottie like an X1. BMW has inflated MSRP now so knock 7% off of it for sure.
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Oct 6, 2012 23:43
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MrChips posted:Yeah, the 3er is a way better car than the Regal could ever be - especially considering I'd personally take a Sport Line or M-Sport 328 with the MT and very few options, the price point isn't all that different between them. Regal sales are already off like 40% each month just because of the Verano. There is too much price overlap between Verano, Regal, and Lacrosse. That said you can get a loaded Regal GS for not much more than a base 3 series. 3 series (Or ATS) get a lot more pricy with popular options. edit: 
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Oct 6, 2012 23:57
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KozmoNaut posted:Das Volk's got a point here. Of course there are highend cars here that the US doesn't get and I see AMG Mercs, M BMWs, Porsches, Ford Focus RSs, various other hot hatches etc. and even the odd Ferrari or Maserati once in a while. But by far the vastly overwhelming majority of cars are cheap, low-displacement, high-MPG econoboxes. On the other hand you can lease a Megane diesel with 130HP and feel like king of the road through much of Europe because most people are driving smaller and less powerful cars. Until the illusion is ruined by some arsehole German in Q7 driving at autobahn speeds on the French autoroutes
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Oct 6, 2012 23:58
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dissss posted:On the other hand you can lease a Megane diesel with 130HP and feel like king of the road through much of Europe because most people are driving smaller and less powerful cars. There is no good reason for a speed limit on those beautiful French motorways 
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Oct 7, 2012 05:12
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Camaro ZL1 mini-review: I've been really keen on the car since it's been reviewed. There was a white manual in a nearby dealership, so I swung over to check it out. 2 more seats than my Z06, but going up a lot in size and weight. Ok, perfunctory pics first:   The white in the 2nd pic is more accurate. Just a tiny bit too cream for my taste. But it's a good stormtrooper look. The matte rockers look cooler in pictures than they do in person. The least flattering angle is the profile, where it looks the least special. The seating position and overall visibility somehow was noticeably better than in the SS rental I had once. Visibility was my #1 concern, and it was decent enough. I didn't get the coffin impression that had been on my mind since the rental. The diagonal side C-pillar is still enormous, but visibility is liveable. I drove around first with suspension in Tour mode. The suspension was fairly stiff but very planted. Putting it in Tour mode is not gonna turn this car into a GT. Very little sense of jostle from bumps and cracks, which probably owes mostly to the weight. Then I set it into Sport mode. Got up to some speed on smoother backroads and hefted the car around a bit. I think reviews describe the car accurately -- yes, it is big and heavy, but it handles precisely and capably. I could definitely tell Sport mode was slowing down throttle response, just like Randy Pobst mentioned in GRM. The brakes are strong and modulate well but feel softer than my Z06's. Pedal position was fine for heel-toe. The shifter works well, not too heavy but having almost no slop. The clutch is very smooth and easy to use. I liked the available adjustment from the steering wheel and seat. I got things exactly how I wanted them. It was still hard to visualize where the wheels and front corners were, but not bad for the first drive. Seats are way better than the Z06's. Wheel is small and a bit oversculpted. Steering weight and feel are good. On the numb side, but forgiveable given the wheel size and the kind of car. And still less numb than the Z06, I think. Power was very smooth and linear. The DBW, even in Tour mode, was smoother than in my Z06. It makes 580hp a snap to control, but it definitely takes away from the danger and thrill of stomping on it. For around town, the car is not as raw and takes more to poke. Generally, acceleration didn't feel as strong as in my vette, though I wasn't driving it as hard as I could have. I noticed gearing was shorter in general, I guess for track use. In the Z06, I go 70mph at 1.5k in 6th. In the ZL1, I was doing 50. The sounds -- quite docile, to be honest. The overall exhaust tuning was nice, but very quiet. With the windows up, you barely hear the exhaust when driving quietly. It steps up only when you really get on it. The engine is almost silent. No detectable blower whine, which is always disappointing with these new effecient superchargers. When I blip on downshift in the Z06, I get a very distinct rev note. Helps me know how high I've got the motor. It's barely hearable in the ZL1. If the people in the front are short, a medium sized person should tolerate sitting in the back, so at least that checks off that aspect of utility. All put together, it didn't make me want to leap from my vette. My strongest negative reactions: - yeah, this thing is big and heavy - the magnetic shocks underdeliver on the hype. They help a lot with handling, but I came in thinking they were gonna be every thing for every surface - aural experience is unbecoming a 60k Camaro Strongest positive reactions: - the handling engineering shows - looks bad as gently caress - great ergonomics for me
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Oct 7, 2012 05:28
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60k for that thing? I know 580hp and all but that seems dangerously apt for serious depreciation 
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Oct 7, 2012 05:40
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Das Volk posted:60k for that thing? I know 580hp and all but that seems dangerously apt for serious depreciation Given who's gonna want one, it'll probably depreciate relatively mildly. I was rounding up a bit; it's 57 when the gas guzzler tax is included.
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Oct 7, 2012 05:44
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kimbo305 posted:- looks bad as gently caress
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Oct 7, 2012 06:32
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Presto posted:I agree with this statement, but not quite in the same way at you meant it. heh, to each his own.
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Oct 7, 2012 06:34
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Das Volk posted:There is no good reason for a speed limit on those beautiful French motorways Tell that to the gendarmes. They have very particular opinions about cars with non-French plates speeding on their autoroutes. Then again, they also have a 100HP limit for motorcycles for some reason. While I love their cars (particularly the hot hatches and rallycars), love their food and wine, love their women, love their rally cars and hot hatches, but I just don't understand some of their laws.
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Oct 7, 2012 08:07
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KozmoNaut posted:Then again, they also have a 100HP limit for motorcycles for some reason. While I love their cars (particularly the hot hatches and rallycars), love their food and wine, love their women, love their rally cars and hot hatches, but I just don't understand some of their laws. KozmoNaut posted:That's because it is extraordinarily extravagant, though. It really is more than you could ever safely use on 99.9% of public roads, the only place you would ever need that kind of power is on a closed track. I suspect that's the same argument the French authorities use for the bike HP limit. You'd only need half that to get over the ton (or 160km/h), and the speed limit is 130km/h.
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Oct 7, 2012 16:45
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Linedance posted:I suspect that's the same argument the French authorities use for the bike HP limit. You'd only need half that to get over the ton (or 160km/h), and the speed limit is 130km/h. But why no HP limit for cars sold in France, then? It doesn't really make much sense. Then again, I believe the most powerful road car ever built by a French manufacturer is the Renault Mégane R.S. Trophy, which has 266HP. The most powerful engine ever built by PSA for a road car is their 3L V6 diesel at 240HP. So I guess their own manufacturers are kind of voluntarily limiting themselves? Even then, my Peugeot can hit about 215km/h with just 160HP. Why wasn't that limited to about 100HP instead? Should be plenty to reach 130km/h. Powerful Mercs and BMWs etc. sold in France aren't limited to something like 250HP, either. No cars are, except for the 250km/h limiters on most high-end models. Even bikes like the BMW S1000RR or Ducati 1199R Panigale are limited to 100HP, which is a goddamn travesty. Well, officially they are. We all know that the dealers remove the limiter as soon as the bike is sold.
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Oct 7, 2012 17:29
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kimbo305 posted:Camaro ZL1 mini-review: Americans: Still trying to push boxes through corners.
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Oct 7, 2012 19:44
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Devyl posted:Americans: Still trying to push boxes through corners. I'm not seeing the point you're getting at. The ZL1 is roughly the same size as the M6 and C63 AMG while weighing in smack dab in the middle of those two.
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Oct 7, 2012 23:07
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oRenj9 posted:I'm not seeing the point you're getting at. My point is Americans are still trying to push box-shaped vehicles through turns on race tracks. ZL1? Box. CTS-V? Box. Mustang GT? Not as boxy, but still big. I normally associate well-handling track-ready cars with being a bit more aerodynamic. Devyl fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Oct 8, 2012 |
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Oct 8, 2012 04:57
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Devyl posted:I normally associate well-handling track-ready cars to be a bit more aerodynamic. Meh, it's not the worst thing in the world, as long as the rest of the aero is thought out, which it certainly is on the ZL1. The Z06 has an unimpressive Cd of 0.34, while the ZL1 is a bit worse at 0.37.
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Oct 8, 2012 05:11
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kimbo305 posted:Meh, it's not the worst thing in the world, as long as the rest of the aero is thought out, which it certainly is on the ZL1. The Z06 has an unimpressive Cd of 0.34, while the ZL1 is a bit worse at 0.37. I think he's trying to find a non-probatible means of saying "That poo poo is fugly."
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Oct 8, 2012 05:13
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dissss posted:The market positioning was always strange for those cars in North America. The Integra was a great car, probably one of the best fwd cars ever, but it never, ever was a luxury car and I don't know why North Americans view it as such.
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Oct 8, 2012 10:07
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Is the Camaro as big as it looks? In photos it always seems very portly.
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Oct 8, 2012 10:16
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88h88 posted:Is the Camaro as big as it looks? In photos it always seems very portly. It feels big, and it's a bit larger than the Mustang1 but not quite as gigantic as the Challenger. The modern pony car is about presence and æsthetics more than it is about performance (considering the V6 models, while getting better and faster, sell more units than V8 models). Being large with eye-catching, if not wonderful-looking, design is a great way to get attention. Edit: that ZL1 is hideous compared to the GT500. Not sure if it's the color or what, but barforama. 1: The Camaro's wider and longer than the Mustang by a couple inches and has a five inch longer wheelbase. The Mustang is an inch and a half taller. The Challenger is less than an inch wider than the Camaro, but several inches longer in the other dimensions. Cocoa Crispies fucked around with this message at 12:34 on Oct 8, 2012 |
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Oct 8, 2012 12:31
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88h88 posted:Is the Camaro as big as it looks? In photos it always seems very portly. Yea they're about the size of a 5 series.
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Oct 8, 2012 13:44
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assfucker420 posted:The Integra was a great car, probably one of the best fwd cars ever, but it never, ever was a luxury car and I don't know why North Americans view it as such. Probably because it was sold as a luxury brand? But you're right, I owned an integra, and it was just a more aesthetically pleasing civic, subjectively, to me.
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Oct 8, 2012 14:12
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Mustang and Camaro are huge cars because the american public doesn't want hot hatchbacks, they want 500hp family sedans. I mean, look how well the Dodge Charger has sold despite being a Dodge- simply by the fact that it has 4 doors. The consumers that buy these cars don't autocross then, and they certainly don't road race them. If anything, they drag race them, but virtually none will ever see a time slip of any sort. Mostly, they just don't ever drive them anywhere near the limit, but they'd rather be driving something with the image of a performance car than something that looks like every other sedan on the road.
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Oct 8, 2012 15:05
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grover posted:Mustang and Camaro are huge cars because the american public doesn't want hot hatchbacks, they want 500hp family sedans. I mean, look how well the Dodge Charger has sold despite being a Dodge- simply by the fact that it has 4 doors. The consumers that buy these cars don't autocross then, and they certainly don't road race them. If anything, they drag race them, but virtually none will ever see a time slip of any sort. Mostly, they just don't ever drive them anywhere near the limit, but they'd rather be driving something with the image of a performance car than something that looks like every other sedan on the road. The Charger in particular because it's one of the cheapest non-truck ways to get a big vehicle with 300ish horsepower that doesn't look like a melted jellybean. The base V6 is rated at 290+ish HP and starts at $25k, which is Camry territory. They're cheap size with power, which is all most Americans want. The big RWD sedan was THE volume American car until the 80s, when they were all eliminated by car companies and replaced with smaller, FWD cars with squishy styling. Then, surprise surprise, everyone went out and bought SUVs instead, which are also large, cheap RWD with big engines and squared-off styling. The Camaro and Challenger are both particularly huge simply because they had to platform share to get the costs and engineering time down, and Zeta or LX are both large car platforms that are hard to shrink. Which is why the Mustang is the smallest among the pony cars. The spirit of a pony car is an inexpensive, good-looking car with a big engine. They're GT cars, not corner carvers (though nowadays they do that pretty well, too). OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Oct 8, 2012 |
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Oct 8, 2012 15:40
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considering most American roads its pretty logical to want something comfortable that goes well in a straight line without a lot of regard for much else. Sizing is a little nuts though, but that appears to waning a little as smaller cars are gaining at least a toe hold of interest.
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Oct 8, 2012 16:08
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grover posted:Mustang and Camaro are huge cars because the american public doesn't want hot hatchbacks, they want 500hp family sedans. I mean, look how well the Dodge Charger has sold despite being a Dodge- simply by the fact that it has 4 doors. The consumers that buy these cars don't autocross then, and they certainly don't road race them. If anything, they drag race them, but virtually none will ever see a time slip of any sort. Mostly, they just don't ever drive them anywhere near the limit, but they'd rather be driving something with the image of a performance car than something that looks like every other sedan on the road. Which I guess is why there is no manual tranny option in the Charger. That pretty much killed my interest in getting a SRT8 Charger.
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Oct 8, 2012 21:15
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Looks like Dodge has a nice looking Dart up for SEMA. Linky I sure hope automakers stop this loving habit of picking the biggest wheels they can. I think STIs are up to 18 inch wheels with little rubber band tires by now... 19" ones would make them brutal to drive over anything more bumpy than freshly laid glass.
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Oct 8, 2012 21:51
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Don't worry, I'm sure they'll make a "Rally Package Option" that charges you more to get 17" wheels and mudflaps.
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Oct 8, 2012 21:52
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Seat Safety Switch posted:Looks like Dodge has a nice looking Dart up for SEMA. Linky Seriously, especially on a Subaru. Going off the pavement is one of the biggest draws of buying one.
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Oct 8, 2012 22:06
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