|
Leon Einstein posted:
Don't use a dumb libertarian talking point to illustrate this point, please.
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2012 17:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 23:33 |
|
|
prom candy posted:You're setting different goalposts for how a government would take away someone's freedom vs. how a criminal or company would take away someone's freedom. Also, I am not really sure how this is a libertarian talking point. I'm the furthest thing from a libertarian. I just get sick of the hero worship when it comes to the military, and how people get pissed if I don't kiss the rear end single military person around. Apparently I enjoy the "freedom" they are fighting for, therefore I can never utter anything critical about them.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2012 17:21
|
|
|
Hobnob posted:There are a couple of books by an author named Jane Grant (Come Hither, Nurse and Come Again, Nurse) which, although fictionalised, are supposedly pretty much semi-autobiographical accounts of what it was like to be a student nurse in London in the early 50s. There's a lot of eye-opening stuff for a modern reader (particularly, of course, social attitudes, like everyone automatically assuming that a nurse who got married would immediately quit her job). Probably best not to click this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totally_drug-resistant_tuberculosis Well done 1st-worlders for a) gratuitously over-using and abusing antibiotics and b) letting THE MARKETS decide we need erections and parenting in capsule form more than we need new, working antibiotics.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2012 17:22
|
|
|
Aeka 2.0 posted:I have a friend who I cannot convince that UHC is a good thing. His anecdotal evidence trumps all. He has an aunt who lives in Canada and needed a procedure done to her eyes, the waiting list was so long that she went blind. I live in Canada, my neighbor is also an Immigrant and she used to bitch quite a bit about the Medical service and its waiting lines for minor stuff like colds and the like. I tried to convince her that the fact that she was actually covered against the serious stuff was worth the occasional lines but that didn't change her opinion at all. Until one day she began to see light flashing lights on her right eye and ran to the hospital. There, the nurse immediately found her a general doctor, who examined her and then (again, immediately) send her to an ophthalmologist who ran all kinds of tests in expensive looking machines before sending her to an even more specialized dude who checked her eyes completely and told her what do do. The next day she just told me "you were right" and that's that. Another convert into the evils of socialized medical care! It seems like some people just have to experience the system first-hand to realize that it works. And thus your friend, who is not a Canadian resident, will probably never change his mind.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2012 17:35
|
|
|
Leon Einstein posted:Not really; I'm talking about the general freedom that is "fought" for by our military. It's not like the U.S. is going to be enslaved by foreign invaders the second we try to trim our military spending. I doubt you're going to find anyone who will disagree with this point. The issue people were taking exception to was that it was obvious that only the government can take away people's freedom.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2012 19:13
|
|
|
trucutru posted:It seems like some people just have to experience the system first-hand to realize that it works. And thus your friend, who is not a Canadian resident, will probably never change his mind.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2012 19:54
|
|
|
my loving e-mail forwards posted:
So much dumb poo poo in there. Dog  s, blatant lies, and some pretty decent hypocrisy. All to show  >  , and all of it is  -worthy
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2012 20:10
|
|
|
ZappDash posted:So much dumb poo poo in there. Dog It's a low tactic but I'd be tempted to respond to that with first a comment about the tax returns not actually being open, then I'd go on a rant about how Mitt believes that he will become a God in the afterlife. Right or wrong that theology scares the hell out of most hard right American christians, enough to write off the religion completely. I'm not super proud of it but that's the tactic I use on my in-laws, but they aren't interested in intellectually honest debates and I don't mind stooping down to their level a bit to prevent them from dumping their retirement accounts into a political campaign.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2012 20:43
|
|
|
ZappDash posted:So much dumb poo poo in there. Dog 1. I could go two ways on this. Either "you're literally saying we should elect our President on looks", or "you mean he's white". 4. Are they referring to Biden here? The "put y'all back in chains" thing? People adopt accents when speaking sometimes. It happens. It's not always pandering. But drat if they didn't have to mention "black", huh? Because no white person ever talks like that! 5. Jesus Christ the "sealed academic records" thing again. ALL academic records are sealed by FEDERAL loving LAW. The only reason we would know Romney's academic records is if he told us or if he signed a FERPA waiver for, uh, the entire country. 6. I really don't want to do the whole "he's a Mormon" thing, but, well, that's the reason he doesn't smoke or drink or do drugs. Because it's against his religious beliefs. The religious beliefs his family raised him in. This is not some testament to the man's willpower - it can be very easy to decide to not violate the religion you've been raised with your whole life. 7. Yes, exactly. We don't want "yesterday". We want "tomorrow", where American Protestantism isn't the only acceptable religion for our leaders, where people are considered equals regardless of literally loving anything you could use to make them "different", and where we no longer believe in the lie of "bootstraps" being proliferated by people whose "hard work" was helped along by personal connections that most of the country doesn't have. 8. That entire last sentence is missing the loving point. Ann Romney does not know what it is like to be a working mother in this country because she never had a job, and she shouldn't have said that she does. That was the only context in which the "scorn" involved exists - Ann Romney claimed to understand an experience she has never lived herself. 9. More a question of my own memory on this one...didn't Mitt admit that he asked church leaders for advice on the campaign trail, as to whether or not it was OK for him to say he supported certain positions? If not, mea culpa, I remembered wrong. If so, I AM NOT ELECTING A CHURCH TO THE OFFICE OF PRESIDENT. 10. Yes, let's ignore the entirety of Mitt's upbringing to pretend that he built himself up from absolutely nothing. Or that his time at Bain Capital was at literally zero risk to himself, a position that an overwhelming majority of people in this country will never be remotely capable of leveraging through no fault of their own other than losing at, as Warren Buffett so eloquently phrased it, the "ovarian lottery". Also, draft notice? You mean the draft he didn't have to deal with, right? Update on the minimum wage rant I posted earlier: The guy who posted it listened to my fiancee and I talk about the problems with eliminating the minimum wage (like how MW is currently less than half the living wage, how corporate greed isn't going anywhere, and how reduced wages will usually not lead to reduced prices) and decided that perhaps he needed to think about the situation a little more next time. However, one person in the comment thread decided that 1) anyone who thinks that a living wage should be guaranteed must be 18-25 years old (he literally used "18-25" multiple times), because he's 44 and anyone who disagrees with him must be a child, and that if my fiancee really is in a situation where she can't just "go to college and make something better of herself", she should marry a rich man.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2012 20:47
|
|
|
ZappDash posted:10. And one more point.....pundits say because of his wealth, he can't relate to ordinary Americans. I guess that's because he made that money HIMSELF.....as opposed to marrying it or inheriting it from Dad. Apparently, he didn't understand that actually working at a job and earning your own money made you unrelatable to Americans. He... He did get it from his dad, though. He didn't 'inherit' it because his dad died after Romney was already a millionaire, but his dad gave him an allowance at Harvard that was generous enough for him to afford plane-tickets home on the weekend, as well as buying him a car and a house. Ann Romney said they lived modestly, because neither of them worked--they lived by selling the stock Mitt owned. The only reason it's not an inheritance is because his dad was still alive.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2012 20:56
|
|
|
http://csteventucker.wordpress.com/2010/03/21/how-bad-is-the-democrats-health-care-reform-bill-really/ So here's the short story; I need some help figuring out just exactly how bullshit this source is to further a facebook argument. I know, such a just cause. I'm starting now, but there is a TON of information to dissect.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2012 21:12
|
|
|
XyloJW posted:He... He did get it from his dad, though. He didn't 'inherit' it because his dad died after Romney was already a millionaire, but his dad gave him an allowance at Harvard that was generous enough for him to afford plane-tickets home on the weekend, as well as buying him a car and a house. Ann Romney said they lived modestly, because neither of them worked--they lived by selling the stock Mitt owned.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2012 21:13
|
|
|
quote:Mitt is as far from 'self-made' as a person can be without literally being birthed into a pile of cash. Yeah, having a former presidential candidate and governor for a father is a definite boon in the business world, and he undoubtedly benefited from that at every level. But let's not go overboard. He did earn very impressive honors in college, and he did live in a cheap, lovely house. There are plenty of privileged assholes who all live in big expensive houses because their parents pay their every bill and they still barely pass. The last Republican president, in fact, leaps to mind. Don't get me wrong, he's privileged and doesn't even have any idea how bad others have it, but that doesn't mean he was lazy or irresponsible.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2012 21:19
|
|
|
Rick Perry supporters were the ones going on the news calling Mormonism a cult, not Obama's.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2012 21:23
|
|
|
XyloJW posted:Yeah, having a former presidential candidate and governor for a father is a definite boon in the business world, and he undoubtedly benefited from that at every level. But let's not go overboard. He did earn very impressive honors in college, and he did live in a cheap, lovely house. There are plenty of privileged assholes who all live in big expensive houses because their parents pay their every bill and they still barely pass. The last Republican president, in fact, leaps to mind. To me, 'self-made' implies a lot more than 'competently rode a wave of privilege,' it implies that a person rose from having nothing to wealth. Mitt's just American aristocracy.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2012 21:34
|
|
|
On what to expect from the next debate, post: 7852137 posted:Regarding the townhall format, I think you will see Romney knock it out of the park again. I also think Obama will show up a little bit, but I don’t think he will beat Romney. The truth is that Obama simply does not have the same cognitive function and experience of Romney. With Romney, you are looking at a guy who graduated top of his class with a JD/MBA from Harvard. He was one of the most successful consultants on earth in the late 70’s and early 80’s, and was thus tapped by Bill Bain to found Bain Capital. He led, for 15 years, what was arguably the most successful run for any investment firm in american history at Bain Capital from 1984-1999. Look at the returns he was able to generate for his investors. At one point he was tapped by Bill Bain again to come back to save a struggling Bain and Co, which he did successfully. He then took an Olympics mired with a huge budget deficit and scandal and turned it around making it the most profitable Winter Olympics to date, right after 9/11 I might add. Finally he was elected as a republican governor in the most liberal state in the country. Not to mention all of his civic and church duty as well as charitable giving.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2012 21:42
|
|
|
Grimdude posted:http://csteventucker.wordpress.com/2010/03/21/how-bad-is-the-democrats-health-care-reform-bill-really/ I browse Politifact regularly (and so should you!), so a lot of this sounds familiar. I've just looked up a few of the claims, and none of them are good. "The simple fact is that Democrats have already ‘ended Medicare as we know it” with Obamacare." - Pants On Fire "Medicare will be bankrupt by 2016" - False "The IPAB’s Authority Is Nearly Dictatorial" - Mostly False That's just what I noticed at a quick glance.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2012 21:46
|
|
|
XyloJW posted:Yeah, having a former presidential candidate and governor for a father is a definite boon in the business world, and he undoubtedly benefited from that at every level. But let's not go overboard. He did earn very impressive honors in college, and he did live in a cheap, lovely house. There are plenty of privileged assholes who all live in big expensive houses because their parents pay their every bill and they still barely pass. The last Republican president, in fact, leaps to mind. My GPA would have been 1 point higher if I didn't have a 10-14 hour day every day in college from having to work full time. So yeah, I hope he did good when all he had to do was go to school and study. I am sure he wasn't exactly going to an over-crowded public school his whole life till then either.  I dropped out of college because it turns out it's expensive and I am poor.
|
|
#
?
Oct 9, 2012 22:33
|
|
|
ultimateforce posted:My GPA would have been 1 point higher if I didn't have a 10-14 hour day every day in college from having to work full time. So yeah, I hope he did good when all he had to do was go to school and study. I am sure he wasn't exactly going to an over-crowded public school his whole life till then either. That loving sucks. But Xylo wasn't implying anything about you or people like you, so you don't have to get quite so defensive. He was just pointing out that he has worked hard, which is true. He started way loving further along than most people will ever get, but that doesn't mean he didn't work hard. The thing is, you can't blame him for being born rich and being given the life his parents' gave him anymore than you can blame someone who is born into poverty. Of course, you can't exactly say he is a self made man either, just because he worked hard within his privileged upbringing. Fortunately, that wasn't the point Xylo was making. Romney's problem isn't that he was born rich, or given a privileged life. It's that he apparently lacks any sort of empathy and can't seem to fathom why everyone isn't like him. That and he has no qualms about crushing the lives of others to further himself. Which, upon further thought, is probably related to the empathy problem.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 00:54
|
|
|
The latest in the series from Uncle Nutjob. I'm positive he didn't type this first part in italics. Uncle Nutjob isn't the type to add his own thoughts to anything (unless it's to tell you that he's an expert at whatever it is) and probably has never had an original thought in his head. quote:Please listen to this and vote this man out before it is to late to save our beautiful country. He is a trojan horse that has come in to destroy America and turn it into to a Muslim nation. This is a christian nation and we believe in Jesus Christ. Stand up for your faith and your country. Vote against Obama
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 02:49
|
|
|
Sarion posted:Romney's problem isn't that he was born rich, or given a privileged life. It's that he apparently lacks any sort of empathy and can't seem to fathom why everyone isn't like him. That and he has no qualms about crushing the lives of others to further himself. Which, upon further thought, is probably related to the empathy problem. This. The problem with Romney and his ilk isn't that they're rich, it's that they don't understand that people are poor because of social stratification, not lazyness. I don't care that people like Warren Buffet and Gates are rich, and I appreciate the fact that they realize that they are privileged and want to help others. They also realize charity isn't a replacement for government programs. Charity can not deal with institutional poverty. You need government intervention, regulation, and programs to deal with that. Being rich doesn't make a person an rear end in a top hat, being selfish and having an unsympathetic attitude does.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 02:58
|
|
|
RC and Moon Pie posted:The latest in the series from Uncle Nutjob. That's too bad, because the italics is the best part. It has absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the horse poo poo. I think we may be reaching an amazing point where Muslim and Marxist mean the same thing to the kinds of people who buy into this nonsense. As for the rest of it... Obamacare does not unionise healthcare, nor does it add 16000 IRS agents. Cap and Trade didn't pass, so I didn't even bother reading the rest. But my guess is its description of this bill that was originally pushed by Republicans (Obama's opponent in 2008 no less) is probably inaccurate. Who is pushing for a new State? Never supported a blanket amnesty for all 12 million illegal immigrants. Bailouts were from Bush. Ok, think that covers it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 02:59
|
|
|
RC and Moon Pie posted:The latest in the series from Uncle Nutjob. The author, Wayne Allyn Root, stated to the media that he never met Obama: New York Times article posted:Neither one knew their famous Columbia classmate, Barack Obama. “I’ve not only not met him,” Mr. Root said, “I’ve not met anybody who met him.” FactCheck.org posted:The message recycles — and exaggerates to the point of falsification — some attacks that were raised in the heat of the 2008 presidential campaign. The claim that Fox News could not find any classmates who remembered Obama, for example, was published in a Sept. 11, 2008, Wall Street Journal editorial, which attacked then-candidate Obama for not releasing more information about his two years at the university. The message also makes much of Wayne Allyn Root’s statement in an interview that he didn’t know anybody who remembered Obama at Columbia. That appeared Sept. 5, 2008, in Reason magazine. What the message fails to mention is that Root was at the time a candidate for vice president on the Libertarian ticket. Root was stating that "[a] vote for Obama is four years of Karl Marx," but even Root stopped short of claiming that Obama was not actually a student at Columbia.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 03:04
|
|
|
I'm pretty sure Communists crushed unions.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 03:05
|
|
|
Sarion posted:That loving sucks. But Xylo wasn't implying anything about you or people like you, so you don't have to get quite so defensive. Well I am pretty lazy too. No big deal.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 03:06
|
|
|
ultimateforce posted:Well I am pretty lazy too. No big deal. Mr. 47% up in here. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 03:09
|
|
|
Did I get the phrase "started on 3rd base, thinks he hit a triple" from here? I'm pretty sure it was this thread. Because it exactly describes Mitt Romney. He's done very well for himself, there's no point in even trying to deny it. But the "self-made man" stuff is a stretch at best. Yes, you can still be a colossal fuckup with rich connected parents. So good for him for not being a colossal fuckup? I'm sure he works hard. He did well in school? Great! Good for him. But instead of seeing "hey I had all of these advantages that most people will never ever even come close to!" he says "I did that myself!" Meanwhile you have a guy like Obama, who came from a much worse situation and still managed to go to the same college as Mitt. Mitt gets "look at how awesome of a student he was!" Obama gets "hey why won't that I'm rambling now I guess.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 03:20
|
|
|
myron cope posted:Did I get the phrase "started on 3rd base, thinks he hit a triple" from here? I'm pretty sure it was this thread. Because it exactly describes Mitt Romney. He's done very well for himself, there's no point in even trying to deny it. But the "self-made man" stuff is a stretch at best. Yes, you can still be a colossal fuckup with rich connected parents. So good for him for not being a colossal fuckup? I'm sure he works hard. Not rambling, because this about sums it up. To a significant portion of the population, Romney is a self-made man (despite being surrounded with opportunity and little else for most of his life) and Obama is a black Islamofascisocialist who never really went to Columbia and is a Manchurian candidate from our worst enemies. Yes, good for Romney for working hard, but he hosed up when he failed to realize that many Americans are poor because of institutionalized poverty. Good for Obama for working hard and good for him for realizing he can help others too.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 03:25
|
|
|
Someone here had "He was born so close to home plate the umpire felt the afterbirth" which I personally like.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 03:26
|
|
|
I was going to say some stuff, but y'all covered most of it. Thanks as always to Sarion for backing me up when I word something poorly and come across like a jerk. I just don't like to see people put themselves against a rhetorical wall. Give yourself some room for hate. By saying Romney's the most privileged rear end in a top hat ever, you're not leaving yourself any room to remind people that they elected a guy twice as lazy, twice as dumb, three times as sleazy, and from an even higher social rung on the social ladder only 8 years ago. I will always reserve my harshest class hatred for him.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 03:50
|
|
|
Hey, remember that lovely letter from a buisnessman to his employees from a few pages back? The one where he told them they were going to be fired if Obama got re-elected?quote:To All My Valued Employees, I don't think anyone ever put it together that that letter is basically a rip-off of the letter that David Siegel sent to the employees of his company (or he copied the chain letter, which Siegel seems to actually agree with in the article). This is the David Siegel the former billionaire (now only has hundreds of millions ;_;), CEO of some lovely timeshare resort company, owner of the failed largest house in America let's make a documentary about it David Siegel. This idiot that still has more money than god even after the recession is so concerned about Obama raising taxes or something stupid that he's going to close up shop and take his humdreds of millions and flee the country what in the gently caress ahrhashfdf
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 04:03
|
|
|
GW was born rich, and stayed rich half-assedly involved in running ACTUAL BUSINESSES (mostly in extractive industries, of course, but still). He didn't go around directly benefiting from the destruction of the livelihoods of people poorer than himself. He wasn't running a parasitic pseudo-business. Was he only pretending to understand the problems of the poor and middle classes? Maybe. Was he only pretending to care? Definitely. Romney doesn't bother with either. You can either praise him for his honesty in that, or you can hate him more for the CERTAINTY that he is unaware how much better he has it than the people upon whom he treads. Any additional hate you have for GW probably comes from his actions as president, or perhaps from his time as governor of Texas. Romney was governor of a very blue state, which would have restrained him...if he's elected president he'll be freer to be himself, and you'll probably hate him as much as you hate GW.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 04:06
|
|
|
Yeah, I suppose so. And it's a silly quibble for me to bring up anyway. Chalk it up to sleepiness on my part.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 04:13
|
|
|
Leon Einstein posted:Do people really think that Iraq or Afghanistan were trying to take away our freedom? It's obvious that the only thing capable of taking away our freedom is our government, and it already has been chipping away at it since 9/11. I'm not sure where they got that from, but all the moms on my fb, who have sons in the Marines, remind the rest of us daily, that we should be thankful, that junior fought for our freedom.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 07:35
|
|
|
Is there any point at which we should be challenging people on this? I'm thinking let it go if it's generalized and directed at no one in particular, challenge if it's directed at anyone in particular or used to defend something indefensible.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 08:29
|
|
|
The freedom thing doesn't really bother me. It's just the idea that signing up, and following orders, automatically makes you a hero.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 09:07
|
|
|
Sarion posted:Who is pushing for a new State? Puerto Rico is having their 4th referendum (first since 1998) on their political status this election year. The previous 3 attempts (67, 93, and 98) have resulted in the majority being in favor of the status quo, but there is still the possibility they could vote about become a state. Even then, it's up to congress to admit it as a state.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 11:34
|
|
|
I read somewhere that in each vote, the margin narrowed further and further, and there's a very good chance statehood could win this time. I believe Obama and Reid have said they'll go along with whatever the people of Puerto Rico want. Which means it'd be up to Boehner, and he can't herd the House to agree on poo poo, especially something so major.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 12:04
|
|
|
LP97S posted:Puerto Rico is having their 4th referendum (first since 1998) on their political status this election year. The previous 3 attempts (67, 93, and 98) have resulted in the majority being in favor of the status quo, but there is still the possibility they could vote about become a state. Even then, it's up to congress to admit it as a state. Thanks, I was not aware this was happening. I knew there had been failed attempts in the past, but didn't know they were voting again this year.
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 12:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 23:33 |
|
|
Sounds like job creation opportunities for flag manufacturers!
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 12:43
|
|