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Instant Jellyfish
Jul 3, 2007

Actually not a fish.



I sold someone a ram last year who was shocked, shocked, that it bred all of their ewes and not just the ones that were the same breed as it. I mean it should know better right? :downs:


vv I know someone who had a ewe that twinned a black and a white lamb and she would only feed the black one. They had to put a black coat on the white one so it could nurse. Sheep are really dumb. vvv

Instant Jellyfish fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Oct 10, 2012

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wtftastic
Jul 24, 2006

"In private, we will be mercifully free from the opinions of imbeciles and fools."

Superconsndar posted:

One of my mice did this exact thing night before last and I had to tear rapidly drying out birth sacks off of 7 babies while she ran around in total mouse terror from the things falling out of her butt. This is her third litter and she was a dumbass about the other two, too. She has only successfully raised 2 babies and that was only because I dumped another female in with her in order to force her to sit on them and let them nurse to keep the other female from getting them.

As soon as I cleaned off all of her babies from this litter, she bit holes in their chests, kicked bedding on top of them, and went and ate a carrot. The miracle of life.

Mice are literally too retarded to breed normally anyway and lab strains can be even worse.

Instant Jellyfish posted:

I sold someone a ram last year who was shocked, shocked, that it bred all of their ewes and not just the ones that were the same breed as it. I mean it should know better right? :downs:

Racist sheep. (and its just so perfect to me that they are that way, its too funny.)

Fraction posted:

Well you are obviously wrong and I've obviously denied my bitches of something they've been looking forward to all their life by spaying them. Perhaps it is I who is the bad dog lady!

Also, I could have sworn Bailey was a blue acd :stare:

Naw, he's just red. I do really like blue heelers, but since I lucked out with the first one I don't think I want to try and get a matching blue one.

Also Instant Jellyfish, that's exactly what I mean. He can do the heeler crazy eye, but he's kind of got a derpy houndy face. And oh my god his ears are soooo soft.

wtftastic fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Oct 10, 2012

2tomorrow
Oct 28, 2005

Two of us are magical.
One of us is real.

wtftastic posted:

Also Instant Jellyfish, that's exactly what I mean. He can do the heeler crazy eye, but he's kind of got a derpy houndy face. And oh my god his ears are soooo soft.

I definitely see the hound in him too. I kind of love the floppy ears on a heeler. :3:

The other night I took a lady back to my place and we were sitting on the couch kissing and all of a sudden she goes, "What is wrong with your dog?" I looked over and Bandit was standing right there giving us his craziest crazy look. It kind of killed the mood. Bandit! :argh:

Kiri koli posted:

I looked into this ages ago and decided that this website looked the most helpful for a DIY project. My husband took over at that point, which means that we've had half assembled PVC pipes all over the house for months. So I can't really speak to the final product.

Thanks for the link. It looks a bit better than the one I was looking at. :)

wtftastic
Jul 24, 2006

"In private, we will be mercifully free from the opinions of imbeciles and fools."

2tomorrow posted:

I definitely see the hound in him too. I kind of love the floppy ears on a heeler. :3:

The other night I took a lady back to my place and we were sitting on the couch kissing and all of a sudden she goes, "What is wrong with your dog?" I looked over and Bandit was standing right there giving us his craziest crazy look. It kind of killed the mood. Bandit! :argh:


Thanks for the link. It looks a bit better than the one I was looking at. :)

Every now and then he can get them to stand up and they look so oversized and sail like, its crazy.

Bandit is just chaperoning. He's just making sure everything is cool because that's his job.

Ishkibibble_Fish
Feb 14, 2008

BananaHam:
1 part treefruit
1 part mud ungulate

Instant Jellyfish posted:

Ticking and roaning are dominant to unticked but the dog needs to have white for them to show up and all the white markings are recessive to solid colored (or they have a weird partial dominance thing, people aren't sure).


Are Ham's markings ticking? http://imgur.com/a/Uptl1

I'm not very knowledgeable on coat colors. He has none of the brown coloring, except some tri-color on his face which doesn't show up now through the gray. He is supposed to be an English Pointer mix, but is shaped like a Cattle Dog and herds everything in sight, including people. He's super fat in some of those pictures but is a svelter 49 pounds now.

Instant Jellyfish
Jul 3, 2007

Actually not a fish.



Ishkibibble_Fish posted:

Are Ham's markings ticking? http://imgur.com/a/Uptl1

I'm not very knowledgeable on coat colors. He has none of the brown coloring, except some tri-color on his face which doesn't show up now through the gray. He is supposed to be an English Pointer mix, but is shaped like a Cattle Dog and herds everything in sight, including people. He's super fat in some of those pictures but is a svelter 49 pounds now.

All spots are a form of ticking, so yep. He's an extreme white piebald with ticking, but not roaning, just like my beast. I'm guessing he's a black and tan but is just graying around the face with age. Did you have him when he was younger? Could definitely be ACD mix. They're a dime a dozen in rural areas.

Ishkibibble_Fish
Feb 14, 2008

BananaHam:
1 part treefruit
1 part mud ungulate

Instant Jellyfish posted:

All spots are a form of ticking, so yep. He's an extreme white piebald with ticking, but not roaning, just like my beast. I'm guessing he's a black and tan but is just graying around the face with age. Did you have him when he was younger? Could definitely be ACD mix. They're a dime a dozen in rural areas.

Ah, thanks. No, I've had him about two years, and the rescue he came from didn't know much about his history. I didn't realize ACDs don't always have roaning.

Engineer Lenk
Aug 28, 2003

Mnogo losho e!

2tomorrow posted:

Does anyone have a favorite DIY agility course plan or an affordable kit? I have a 2-acre yard now (not even including the horse pastures!) and I want to build one to play with the pups on. I've found a lot of plans online but I'd like to hear opinions of anyone who has done it firsthand. I'm very handy and have pretty much any tool I could need, so I'm OK with complexity.

Have you and your dogs done agility before? What you want is a little different if you're working with finished obstacle proficiency versus starting a dog.

Another point to consider is if you let your dogs out in the yard unsupervised - tunnels, a table, weaves and low jumps aren't high risk, but I wouldn't let my dog run around without me in a yard with full-height contact obstacles (particularly the teeter) or a non-breakaway tire.

The jumps linked above are pretty reasonable, but I've seen better proficiency gain with real channel weaves (or stick-in-the ground style) than the pivoting pvc sets (or fixed with pvc base, as linked). There's something about transitioning from the pvc tube base to a flat base that causes some confusion.

I wouldn't recommend a kid's play tunnel for any breed over about 15 lbs. That tire looks like it would hurt if they didn't hit their jump correctly - you could probably hack something together like this out of a cut up funnoodle, some electrical tape, a few bungee cords and a PVC frame.

Azrael Alexander
Jun 24, 2011

No one ever asks if Bender would like to live in a tiny little house. Not that I would. A tiny little house that says "Bender" on it.
Super, you go get this dog right now. :colbert:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=393944587341617&set=a.242308395838571.56900.242127382523339&type=1&theater

Supercondescending
Jul 4, 2007

ok frankies now lets get in formation

ablooooooo generic rescue pits

2tomorrow
Oct 28, 2005

Two of us are magical.
One of us is real.

Engineer Lenk posted:

Have you and your dogs done agility before? What you want is a little different if you're working with finished obstacle proficiency versus starting a dog.

Another point to consider is if you let your dogs out in the yard unsupervised - tunnels, a table, weaves and low jumps aren't high risk, but I wouldn't let my dog run around without me in a yard with full-height contact obstacles (particularly the teeter) or a non-breakaway tire.

The jumps linked above are pretty reasonable, but I've seen better proficiency gain with real channel weaves (or stick-in-the ground style) than the pivoting pvc sets (or fixed with pvc base, as linked). There's something about transitioning from the pvc tube base to a flat base that causes some confusion.

I wouldn't recommend a kid's play tunnel for any breed over about 15 lbs. That tire looks like it would hurt if they didn't hit their jump correctly - you could probably hack something together like this out of a cut up funnoodle, some electrical tape, a few bungee cords and a PVC frame.

The dogs I'd be doing it with have both done it before, but it has been a few years. I'm not interested in doing it competitively, as I have neither the time nor the budget to seriously pursue yet another dog activity. ;) I just wind up spending a ton of time with George because of his search training and I want to have an activity I can do with my other boys besides herding work. I only have a few goats right now for them to work and I can only work those guys so much.

Thank you for your insights. I haven't had a ton of time to look over those plans yet but making a tire jump out of a pool noodle is a great idea. I'm still in very early planning stages right now.

PeaBeeJay
Sep 28, 2012

ButWhatIf posted:

Yeah, in fact she just looks pretty stoned most of the time. Her response time is super slow, which means I can't really keep her occupied by teaching her new things since that feels kind of mean. "Hey dog, learn this thing while you're out of it and drooling on yourself." I kept her with me for most of my appointments yesterday and she slept in the car a lot when she wasn't trying to clamber over the seats to see out. I'm also letting her tear apart a lot of empty cardboard paper towel tube dealies.


Duuuuuuuude...

Poor girl. But it sounds like she's doing well.

This was my drugged out dog.

Azrael Alexander
Jun 24, 2011

No one ever asks if Bender would like to live in a tiny little house. Not that I would. A tiny little house that says "Bender" on it.

Superconsndar posted:

ablooooooo generic rescue pits

But look at her big squishy head. It's pretty great.

Fluffy Bunnies
Jan 10, 2009

2tomorrow posted:

I haven't had a ton of time to look over those plans yet but making a tire jump out of a pool noodle is a great idea. I'm still in very early planning stages right now.

Use pipe insulation. It's cheaper, more bendable and you should be able to tape it at the bottom in such a way that it can have a split in it if the dog misses and still retain a circular shape. You know, like the breakaway tires instead of the other ones that make for some pretty :gonk: agility videos.

E: Ires got her halloween costume in the mail today. If she stops trying to eat it (she's loving fascinated with it and that means she's gotta eat it), I'll try to get a picture. She now matches the danes horse costumes and kaydee's cowgirl costume, though.

Shifty Pony
Dec 28, 2004

Up ta somethin'


I left my cat in the sun too long and I think her backbone melted.



:stare: How can you bend the ways you do, cat?

Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

It's fine.
Don't worry about it.
Whose cat ended up being turned into that business cat meme? I know it was someone here. Anyway, I saw this in an imgur album today:

Ginny Field
Dec 18, 2007

What if there is some boy-beast running around Camp Crystal Lake?

wtftastic posted:

http://imgur.com/a/RHHhc

I hope those work! There's no good profile shot, but I think he's got a much more friendly face than a lot of cattledogs.

Oh god, Bailey is so cute. It's been a while since I've seen pictures of him. I love floppy ears on cattle dogs and cattle dog mixes. It softens up their face so much.

UnfortunateSexFart
May 18, 2008

𒃻 𒌓ð’‰𒋫 𒆷ð’€𒅅𒆷
𒆠𒂖 𒌉 𒌫 ð’®𒈠𒈾𒅗 𒂉 𒉡𒌒𒂉𒊑


My friend's dog brought me a stick to play fetch

McDragon
Sep 11, 2007

I remember that the cat who became Business Cat had a really great name. Like Emilio or something?

Shifty Pony
Dec 28, 2004

Up ta somethin'


McDragon posted:

I remember that the cat who became Business Cat had a really great name. Like Emilio or something?

Yes, Emilio is business cat. He belongs to the boyfriend of Apple Jax.

sleeping ariadne
Apr 21, 2010
I don't want drag down the thread with despair or anything, but I'm really torn about what to do. My boyfriend and I are currently living with his dad while we're both broke students. His dad has two cats, but since we moved in (over a year ago), we've taken over day to day care of them (feeding, brushing, patting and snuggling). The boy cat, Salem, stopped eating a couple of days ago, so we took him to the vet. He's still there, they have no idea what's wrong after an ultrasound, blood test, urine test and monitoring. It's not his kidneys or his liver, or cancer as far as the vet can tell. He is an older cat (12ish), and he's obviously been slowing down, but this was really sudden. They're switching him to a stronger antibiotic tomorrow, but the vet has gently suggested our options might be limited if that doesn't work. Boyfriend's dad is paying all the vet bills (well over $1200 now), so I completely understand him not being ready to keep fruitlessly testing for things that may not be fixable.

Anyway, I've never had a pet be put down before. My childhood dog is still going strong as a 16 year old lady. I just don't know what to do. My first instinct was to want to be there with him, but then I can't help thinking about how much of a cry baby I am. I don't want his last experience to be me sobbing all over him. I guess he won't know he won't be waking up when they put him to sleep, will it be more peaceful without me there? Is it selfish to want to be there? Is it selfish to NOT want to be there? Oh god, I'm weeping already :(

Brillig
Oct 21, 2008

You know the world isn't fair at all. Titles aren't fairly distributed either. In time you'll learn my son. -2Bit
When I was a child I refused to be with my pets when they got put to sleep because I was absolutely sure I wouldn't be able to handle it and would get hysterical. When I was faced with the choice as an adult for the first time, I chose to be with my cat at the end. It was terribly painful. I'll never really forget how awful it was to see him after he was gone. But... I didn't get hysterical, it wasn't unbearable, and I'm glad I was with him. Now I just regret not being there for all of my childhood pets. :(

But I think it's pretty normal to feel absolutely miserable whether you choose to be there or not. There's not really a "right" choice. It just sucks.

Bad Munki
Nov 4, 2008

We're all mad here.


leidend posted:

My friend's dog brought me a stick to play fetch



Well...did you throw it?

2tomorrow
Oct 28, 2005

Two of us are magical.
One of us is real.

sleeping ariadne posted:

Anyway, I've never had a pet be put down before. My childhood dog is still going strong as a 16 year old lady. I just don't know what to do. My first instinct was to want to be there with him, but then I can't help thinking about how much of a cry baby I am. I don't want his last experience to be me sobbing all over him. I guess he won't know he won't be waking up when they put him to sleep, will it be more peaceful without me there? Is it selfish to want to be there? Is it selfish to NOT want to be there? Oh god, I'm weeping already :(

I think it's nicer for the animal to have someone they know there, but it isn't selfish to not want to be there. I think that crying is okay, but I think if you're really out-of-control emotional (which there is nothing wrong with, putting down a pet is very hard) it can be kinder for the animal for you not to be there. So I guess my answer is, it depends. There's not really a right or wrong answer here.

Fraction
Mar 27, 2010

CATS RULE DOGS DROOL

FERRETS ARE ALSO PRETTY MEH, HONESTLY


Personally I will always be there if I have to have an animal pts, because I think it is cruel and selfish for them to be alone because of something they can't control. Hell, I even went with a friend when he had his dog pts, which wasn't pleasant at all.

I think if you can face it, you should make every effort possible to be there. It you're literally goin to start throwing up from crying so much then don't go but have your boyfriend r his dad go in with the cat.

I'm really sorry to hear about the cat though :smith:

Andrias Scheuchzeri
Mar 6, 2010

They're very good and intelligent, these tapa-boys...
I don't think you need to feel guilty if you don't go. Is home euthanasia an option? That way if it's too much for you, it's a lot easier to just step into another room, and you don't have the grim drive home. And for the cat, they don't have the discomfort of a vet trip.

For what it's worth, when I've gone along to have larger animals like cats put to sleep (...larger than rats or birds, I mean), it's pretty quick and pretty peaceful.

ButWhatIf
Jun 24, 2009

HA HA HA

PeaBeeJay posted:

Poor girl. But it sounds like she's doing well.

This was my drugged out dog.



Awww, poor guy. Looks like you opted for TPLO? How much did that end up setting you back financially? And what was recovery like? Was physiotherapy intense?

I'd prefer to avoid TPLO since she's only 23-25 lbs, but better to get an idea and be prepared!

Rufus En Fuego
Oct 19, 2011

HOUSE BARK

"Winter is Potato"

sleeping ariadne posted:

I don't want drag down the thread with despair or anything, but I'm really torn about what to do. My boyfriend and I are currently living with his dad while we're both broke students. His dad has two cats, but since we moved in (over a year ago), we've taken over day to day care of them (feeding, brushing, patting and snuggling). The boy cat, Salem, stopped eating a couple of days ago, so we took him to the vet. He's still there, they have no idea what's wrong after an ultrasound, blood test, urine test and monitoring. It's not his kidneys or his liver, or cancer as far as the vet can tell. He is an older cat (12ish), and he's obviously been slowing down, but this was really sudden. They're switching him to a stronger antibiotic tomorrow, but the vet has gently suggested our options might be limited if that doesn't work. Boyfriend's dad is paying all the vet bills (well over $1200 now), so I completely understand him not being ready to keep fruitlessly testing for things that may not be fixable.

Anyway, I've never had a pet be put down before. My childhood dog is still going strong as a 16 year old lady. I just don't know what to do. My first instinct was to want to be there with him, but then I can't help thinking about how much of a cry baby I am. I don't want his last experience to be me sobbing all over him. I guess he won't know he won't be waking up when they put him to sleep, will it be more peaceful without me there? Is it selfish to want to be there? Is it selfish to NOT want to be there? Oh god, I'm weeping already :(

Please don't feel guilty if you don't think you can handle being there with him. It's a peaceful passing, and any good vet will make it as comfortable for your cat as possible. Mine provided a feather bed, candles, and a sedative to calm my Rufus down. My girlfriend couldn't handle it and had to leave while I held him the whole time (and for about an half our after), and it was the best way for both of us. Rufus went quickly and peacefully. It's okay if you don't want to be there and have those memories. It really is. :glomp:

Malachite_Dragon
Mar 31, 2010

Weaving Merry Christmas magic
:cripes: I'm about at the end of my rope. My "grandmother" who continues to justify my refusing to acknowledge her as such apparently intends to get my niece a puppy, to replace the shi-tzu puppy, supposedly hers, that we've been looking after for half a year now. Because dogs are totally interchangeable and won't notice if you swap one for another, right?! :iamafag:

Ugh. If she'd stuck to her loving word about only looking after her for a month, it wouldn't be such a problem, but unless she intends to pay us back for all the money we've dumped on this pup, am I wrong for thinking she's unofficially ours? We've paid for food, vet visits, haircuts, bathed this dog, done literally everything while she hasn't done a goddamn thing. Yet still insists she has a claim on it. Yes, you have a few pieces of paper proclaiming her a pure-bred shi-tzu. Yay. :geno: I hate this woman...

Kerfuffle
Aug 16, 2007

The sky calls to us~
If you've been feeding and vetting the dog and the vet records are in your name, it is legally yours.

Canadian Bakin
Nov 6, 2011

Retaliate first.
Well, hello there, Nia. You're a pretty girl.


Oh, what's that! Do you have a Kong? And it has a biscuit in it. You like biscuits.


It's gone! But where did it go? You just had it.


What's this in the laundry basket...


Silly dog. That is not a clothing, that is a toy. And yet you buried it in my fresh sheets.

RurouNNy
Dec 10, 2004

Oh man I appreciate that, you know I do!
With Halloween approaching and all, does anyone who has experience with dyeing their pets want to start a thread (*cough*Fluffy Bunnies*cough*)? :dance: Wanna dye my dogs weird colors! I dream of seeing PI pets in a glorious rainbow :D

sleeping ariadne
Apr 21, 2010
Thank you all so much. I've taken your comments to heart, and your advice means a lot to me. I had a big (huge, embarrassingly messy) cry last night after I posted, and I think it helped. If or when he has to be out to sleep, I'm going to be there with him, and I know I can hold it together for him. Salem is comfortable at the vet, apparently he's been flirting and getting lots of love from everyone there, so I know he's not too scared or lonely at the moment.

We should find out how he responds to the latest batch of medication today. If it is time for us to let him go, I'll be heartbroken to not have him here, but grateful for what time we had together. I'll miss his ugly, ear-splitting meow, and his insistent headbutts. Thank you again, I've read over everyone's comments at least 3 or 4 times, it's been a great help.

Fluffy Bunnies
Jan 10, 2009

RurouNNy posted:

With Halloween approaching and all, does anyone who has experience with dyeing their pets want to start a thread (*cough*Fluffy Bunnies*cough*)? :dance: Wanna dye my dogs weird colors! I dream of seeing PI pets in a glorious rainbow :D

I'll throw something together (maybe even a catch all halloween thread if everyone likes that idea) after I dye Kaydee, which will hopefully be tomorrow. The sink in Okinawa was big enough to dye her in. Not so much here. I gotta grab a plastic tote. Besides, then everyone will know she's a cowgirl. Most folks seem to think she's a male at first glance.

wtftastic
Jul 24, 2006

"In private, we will be mercifully free from the opinions of imbeciles and fools."

I have a weird question- Pat Miller advocates having your dog sleep in your room with you as it prevents the dog from being lonely and can be considered a social activity.

Does anyone think/have experience with/ evidence if having a dog sleep in the same room as you makes them too attached or at risk of separation anxiety? I'd actually be fine with having Bailey in my room, but I've never done it because I don't want him to become overly clingy (and he can alert me if someone comes in while I'm sleeping).

RazorBunny
May 23, 2007

Sometimes I feel like this.

I'd say the only bad thing about letting Husker sleep in our room at night is that when he had his surgery and couldn't climb stairs he cried all night long. He hasn't shown any kind of separation anxiety at any other time, but at night if he can't be in the room with us he cries. It's only been an issue a few times, but boy was it a pain in the rear end.

Instant Jellyfish
Jul 3, 2007

Actually not a fish.



wtftastic posted:

I have a weird question- Pat Miller advocates having your dog sleep in your room with you as it prevents the dog from being lonely and can be considered a social activity.

Does anyone think/have experience with/ evidence if having a dog sleep in the same room as you makes them too attached or at risk of separation anxiety? I'd actually be fine with having Bailey in my room, but I've never done it because I don't want him to become overly clingy (and he can alert me if someone comes in while I'm sleeping).

I was worried about this when I moved Major's crate to my room last year because he's already a clingy dog and has generalized anxiety/is prone to anxiousness but I haven't seen a difference. No resource guarding the bed, races to his crate when asked, and hasn't developed SA at all. Now I rarely bother crating him at night or when I'm gone, I just leave him loose in my room with the door shut and he just passes out on my bed because he knows it's that place where we sleep. I still crate him every once in a while and do crate games now and then so he's comfortable with being crated if needed and if he ever started guarding the bed that would be it for him but I really haven't had any problems.

You can always have a trial period to see if you notice any issues come up. I started out very strict about the dog only sleeping in his crate in the living room, then I let him sleep in my room if there was a thunderstorm, then I just went ahead and moved his crate into some unused closet space but still made him sleep there every night, and now he is asleep on all of my pillows while I am crammed at the bottom of my bed typing this. Dogs :argh:

trainedbyshibas
Nov 2, 2011
So Pfox and I decided to torture Koji tonight. Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIEe_pEVM-w

2tomorrow
Oct 28, 2005

Two of us are magical.
One of us is real.
My 3 boys are always in the room with me and usually on the bed with me, and the only issue we've ever had was that when my ex-husband and I were on the outs but still living together, Bandit bit my husband one night when he was getting in bed after I was asleep. I still haven't figured out if it was because we'd been fighting earlier or because my ex startled him, but we've never had a problem before or since. The girls are a bit more independent, Roo is usually in the bedroom and Sadie is antisocial so sleeps on her bed in the kitchen. I leave my bedroom door open so they can choose.

None of them have separation anxiety or are clingy in an anxious way. Actually Bandit and George both slept separately from us for a time when I got them (before I decided to keep them) and both were a lot more clingy before I started letting them in the bedroom. I don't know if that's what made a difference though, they might have just settled in around that time.

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notsowelp
Oct 12, 2012

Though she is small, she is fierce.
I thought this was an interesting blogpost (from the desertwindhounds blog)

quote:

So, dear readers, let me ask you a question: how many bitches does a hobby breeder really need?

ONE.

That’s right. Just one. You can breed just one bitch, and keep a bitch from her, and eventually breed that bitch, and then keep a bitch from her, and eventually breed that bitch, ad infinitum. After all, that’s what the dog breeding books tell you, isn’t it? You’ll buy your ‘foundation bitch’ and finish her and she’ll pass all her health tests with flying colors and you’ll breed her to the absolutely most perfectly matched boy dog ever and they’ll produce perfect little puppies and you’ll pick the most perfect little bitch ever to carry on ‘your lines’ and you’ll just be the bestest most responsible dog breeder ever! 

Because that’s what happens, isn’t it? So let’s pass a law that says breeders should only have one intact bitch. The bestest most responsible dog breeders ever wouldn’t complain about that, right? If we’re feeling magnanimous, we’ll make it two bitches! Two bitches should be enough for any bestest most responsible dog breeder ever! Anyone who complains about not being able to keep more than two bitches couldn’t possibly be a bestest most responsible dog breeder! After all, any bitches that aren’t spayed will die of breast cancer or pyometra! Won’t they? That’s what the vets say! And breeders wouldn’t require their pet puppies to be spayed if that wasn’t true, right? Don’t all the bestest most responsible dog breeders say “if you’re not going to breed your bitch you should spay her, it’s for her own good?” Right? Right? Right?

Oh, I used to believe that stuff, too. Unspayed bitches will die of breast cancer, it’s rife in unspayed bitches! They’ll get pyometra and die! Spay’em! If you don’t spay, you’re irresponsible and a horrible owner! I believed all that, until I got a bitch that I had no intention of spaying, and started paying attention to what dog breeders do, instead of what they say.

Here’s what really happens when some poor idealist decides to get a bitch they might breed:

You buy your ‘foundation bitch.’ When she’s three years old her six year old sire dies of a heart disease that has an unknown inheritance in your breed. You choose not to breed her.

You buy your ‘foundation bitch.’ Everything goes swimmingly but you breed her twice and all she produces is boys, or bitches that are not ‘breeding quality.’ You buy another foundation bitch.

You buy your ‘foundation bitch.’ No matter what you do, progesterone testing, transcervical insemination, sacrificing a goat, she never gets pregnant, or she doesn’t stay pregnant. You buy another foundation bitch.

You buy your ‘foundation bitch.’ Her bite goes off. Waaaay off.

You buy your ‘foundation bitch.’ She ends up too big, over the standard.

You buy your ‘foundation bitch.’ Pyometra.

You buy your ‘foundation bitch.’ Fails ‘health test.’

Do you immediately spay all your reject bitches? Some breeders do. Some will spay and place any dog that they do not plan to breed into a new home. Some do not. Some breeders do not spay their bitches until they reach a certain age (the bitch, not the breeder,) some do not spay them unless they have problems. In Europe, spaying everything with a uterus that you don’t plan to breed is not SOP. Many people keep intact bitches as pets.

Let’s try a different scenario. You buy your ‘foundation bitch.’ You breed her and she produces two lovely bitch puppies you cannot choose between. So you keep both of them. Eventually you decide to breed one of them but you leave the other intact. You keep a bitch puppy from that litter. Now you have four bitches. How many do you need to be the bestest most responsible breeder ever?

I keep a lot of dogs. The primary reason that I keep a lot of dogs, which has nothing to do with breeding and everything to do with the fact that I love dogs being dogs, is that I enjoy watching the social dynamics. I vastly prefer intact bitches to spayed bitches, or at least, bitches that been intact for six or seven years. They develop more complex personalities, in my experience, and it’s rewarding to watch them grow up, mentally, and change over the years. I have come to the decision, over the years of keeping many dogs, to keep my bitches intact unless they have some kind of problem. Very few of the intact bitches that I currently own will be bred, for various reasons. (The vast majority of dogs I own of either sex will never be bred, due to DCM in first degree relatives, multiple food allergies, too big and clumsy, too slow, hypersensitive personality, evil, I could go on. I don’t think my experience is unusual, except that you won’t see me eliminate a dog because their side gait isn’t to die for.) In seventeen years I haven’t lost a bitch to breast cancer, and I’ve had only one pyometra, ironically on that particular bitch’s first heat. Your mileage may vary, of course.

    

None of the bitches pictured above will be bred, ever. At this time, they still have all their lady parts.

But Jess, why don’t you just spay your extra bitches instead of bitching? :::deep breath::: I WILL NOT LET THE GOVERNMENT MAKE HEALTH DECISIONS FOR MY DOGS. THAT IS MY SOLE PURVIEW. If I spay my bitches and bow my head like a good little ‘responsible breeder,’ the terrorists win. Get it?

Obviously, I am not the bestest most responsible dog breeder ever. After all, I’m putting my own personal research and experience, and what I feel is best for my own personal dogs ahead of ‘conventional wisdom’ and ‘public opinion,’ and the Big List of Responsible Breeder Checkpoints.

This is yet another case of breeder esotericism coming back to bite breeders in the rear end. The do as I say, not as I do attitude, ‘if you’re not going to breed her spay her’ rhetoric, IMPLIES THAT ANY INTACT BITCH IS MEANT TO BE BRED. This gives the impression that any intact bitch owned by a breeder IS GOING TO BE BRED, and that the only reason to OWN AN INTACT BITCH IS TO BREED HER. And this is what drives the bizarre impression of pet owners, who have not been initiated into the Self-Contradictory, Back-Assward and Cynical Cult of Dog Breeding, that any intact bitch is going to be bred, thus leading to support for legislation that ASSUMES that ANY INTACT BITCH IS MEANT TO BE BRED. A vicious circle. Dizzy yet?

And it’s the dogs which lose. Restrictive legislation based on nothing more than bullshit mean less breeders will continue to breed. Those that do will keep fewer intact bitches to keep under the limits. Keeping fewer bitches intact will lessen the opportunities to breed from more diverse specimens. Breeders must choose from fewer numbers of pups produced in order to produce the next generation. It is more difficult to maintain intact dogs placed in pet homes due to societal pressure to spay or neuter  due to the erroneous belief that intact means bred. These things lead to genetic impoverishment. Worse, fewer people will decide to start breeding dogs, due to the obstacles in their way.

There is a huge market for dogs. HUGE. ‘Responsible’ breeders fill only a small fraction of the market demand for puppies. As legislation is passed favoring large scale, commercial breeding (and make no mistake, these types of laws, such as the breeding law passed in my own state last year, favor already existing USDA licensed commercial breeding operations [such facilities do not even need to be inspected for a license under the new law in Texas, which uses standards based on the AWA regulations that USDA breeders follow,]) fewer and fewer people will choose to start small breeding programs, meaning that that part of the puppy buying market is not being served, and those people will turn to other sources, which means that demand for puppies from small breeders will wane, which means fewer small breeders will continue to breed. Another vicious circle. (The use of ‘small breeder’ in this context refers to a breeder that produces relatively few puppies, not one that keeps only a few dogs.)

I am going to turn to a term used by someone in a comment on this very blog: there are people who want ‘artisanal, hand-crafted’ puppies. Driving ‘artisanal’ breeders to quit breeding hurts dogs, and it hurts the people who want to buy such puppies. Bullshit laws based on the number of bitches maintained, regardless of whether those bitches are being bred, will be bred, or aren’t ever going to be bred, do nothing to ‘help dogs.’ You cannot legislate intention, why a breeder is breeding, or motivation, nor should you. It doesn’t work. You cannot build a supply that will meet the demand for dogs around ‘artisanal breeding,’ if ‘artisanal breeding’ is made too difficult. So what ‘helps dogs?’ Why don’t we use some common sense to answer that question?

Good general welfare and cruelty laws that are enforced helps dogs. All dogs. Not just ‘breeding dogs’, not just ‘commercial breeding dogs’, not just intact dogs. Deciding that eleven intact bitches equals commercial breeder because intact bitch equals bred bitch and therefore eleven intact bitches means eleven litters a year does not help dogs, because it’s not always true.

Common sense, people.

Let’s revisit the original question: How many bitches does a hobby breeder need?

The answer is still one. Just one, to breed. Providing you’re not picky about what traits you’re carrying forward. Or if you don’t really care about diversity in either genotype or phenotype. Or health. How many bitches a hobby breeder keeps is another story, and dependent on the individual breeders resources, breed, living situation, and personal dog care philosophy, among other things.

Things are changing. There is a lot of questioning going on, and some real research too, into whether the ‘if you’re not going to breed her you should spay her’ mantra needs to go by the wayside. I am really thrilled when people make inquiries about a puppy from me and ask about spay/neuter and when is the best time, and whether I am willing to wait until a pup is much older before spaying or neutering. These people are thinking and questioning and not just accepting the status quo. Yay!

Unfortunately, thinking and not accepting the status quo is not nearly so common when you start talking about what makes a ‘responsible breeder’, including numbers of bitches kept. (Of course, if you are making puppy inquiries to the likes of me, you are pretty far outside the box already.)

And this is where I’m gonna smear the snark on all those well-meaning pet people. I know that the majority of my readers are pet people, not breeders, and that is why I started writing about my dogs in the first place: pet people sometimes have misconceptions and make weird judgements based on things they’ve read or heard or been told. I’ve worked in the mainstream comic book industry for almost twenty years, and I see the same thing with the fanboys. They may know a lot about comics, but they know doodly squat about what goes on behind the scenes to get one from conception to production to the shelf at the local comic book store, and they end up with lots of misconceptions and assumptions. Likewise, pet people know a lot about dogs, specifically their dogs, but they tend to know doodly squat about dog breeding, and what they do know has often been sourced from limited resources, and heavily influenced by the completely insupportable idea that you can just tick things off on a list and voila, you are a ‘responsible breeder.’ ‘Responsible breeders’ always do this. ‘Responsible breeders’ never do that.

That ain’t how it works. (And this, oh this very thing, is why one size fits all breeding legislation is bullshit.) To reduce something as complex and variable as dog breeding, done by a very diverse group of people, for very diverse reasons, to a list of ‘stuff responsible breeders do’ is not only foolish, it’s detrimental to the future of breeding dogs legally in the US. I tell you this as someone who cannot tick off all the boxes on the ‘Responsible Breeder List o’ poo poo.’ So if you ask about my next planned litter, I can tell you why I’ve chosen those dogs, the things I like about them, the things I dislike about them, what health tests I do and why and what those tests do and do not tell me, what general criteria I have for a breeding dog, what I’m hoping for in the litter and which things I’m hoping to improve on in the parents, how I raise my pups and why, about my contract and why it contains the provisions it does, and the new things I plan to do in regards to weaning and neonatal development according to the interesting studies I’ve been reading lately, and I can elucidate my own views on dogs and how they’ve changed over the years, and how much I enjoy research and learning new things, and if, after I’ve told you all of these thing, you throw me on the ‘irresponsible breeder’ pile because I can’t tick off the ‘shows their dogs’ box, or the ‘only breeds purebreds’ box, or some other stupid box, then you are a loving moron. I will not ever answer a question with, “because that’s what responsible breeders do.” The very idea that dog breeding in an ethical manner can be reduced to a simple list is one of the things that feeds these moronic laws, which are all about boxes, and the repetition of and insistence on the validity of this magical religious document, the Responsible Breeder List o’ poo poo, does not help. ‘Responsible breeder’ has been reduced to a bloody catch phrase, fer chrissake.

And frankly, such an individual wouldn’t ever get a puppy from me. I place very few puppies, and I don’t sell them to morons who cannot, or will not, think for themselves instead of being spoon fed their opinions. Until you have personally talked with many breeders about the many variations of ‘normal practice’ in dog breeding, and the many, many ways and reasons why and how dogs are bred, please refrain from making pronouncements about what ‘responsible breeding’ entails, unless you are qualifying it with ‘in your opinion.’ And remember, opinions are like assholes…

Also, if you insist on blahblahblahing about legislation, and accusing breeders who oppose it of being irresponsible or oversensitive or just plain stupid or crazy, it would behoove you to actually read the whole law and it’s attendant regulations. Thank you.

References and resources

Pros and cons of spaying and neutering (all pet owners should read these, and pay attention to the references in the second one.)

Spay/neuter and health, note official statements from veterinary organizations
Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay/Neuter in Dogs (pdf)
The effect of neutering on the risk of mammary tumours in dogs – a systematic review (link to pdf on page)
My own writing on legislation and breeding issues

Unintended Consequences, or, Why I Won’t Just Shut Up
Husbandry and Hypocrisy, or When Fanciers Attack
More Creative Dog Breeder Math
Goodnight, my Wees, or My Yearly Screed Against Stoopid Legislation
HSUS Hates Dog Breeders
Painting by Numbers
Lolly Will Be Keeping His Balls, Thank You

Thoughts? (And yeah this is buttsoape LONG STORY DONT ASK)

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