|
Monster w21 Faces posted:Also take into consideration that Elizabeth has been kept, raised and preened to be the 'Song Bird' of Columbia. She's supposed to be the embodiment of the ideology of the cities founders. White, clean, in her place, American. Hence this threads Misogyny tag. Having an in-lore justification for a sexist character design doesn't let the designers off the hook for creating a sexist character design. I just want to make sure we're not excusing Elizabeth's pointless and unnecessary cleavage just because the designers are aware of it.
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2012 23:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 11:20 |
|
|
Crappy Jack posted:Having an in-lore justification for a sexist character design doesn't let the designers off the hook for creating a sexist character design. I just want to make sure we're not excusing Elizabeth's pointless and unnecessary cleavage just because the designers are aware of it. No argument here, I guess we'll see how she evolves throughout the game now that she has her freedom.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2012 23:04
|
|
|
Monster w21 Faces posted:The leader of the Vox is female. Yeah, which is a super easy way to justify adding ridiculous sex appeal to your game. The part where they made her look like a 12 year old is just creepy as gently caress and I don't know why they did that, but I sure as hell am not putting my money towards something so disturbing.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2012 23:05
|
|
|
In the trailer today he's using that hooky thing to get around on ropes I guess? Where does that leave Elizabeth? edit: concerning her face, I seriously think they were going for a Disney/Pixar-like feel to it, that's the first thing that came to mind for me.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2012 23:08
|
|
|
Samurai Sanders posted:In the trailer today he's using that hooky thing to get around on ropes I guess? Where does that leave Elizabeth? You should really watch the entire 15 min gameplay thing that the horse scene is from. She makes her way around on her own, you don't have to take care of her or anything (they emphasized its not like an escort mission).
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2012 23:11
|
|
|
Taffer posted:Yeah, which is a super easy way to justify adding ridiculous sex appeal to your game. The part where they made her look like a 12 year old is just creepy as gently caress and I don't know why they did that, but I sure as hell am not putting my money towards something so disturbing. I don't know you're pulling this mythical 12 year old thing from, yeah she's young and she's wearing a corset but it's hardly paedo bait. It's not a million miles away from reality.  But like we've said I guess we're going to have to wait and see what sort of character arc she goes through once removed from her ivory tower.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2012 23:17
|
|
|
Samurai Sanders posted:In the trailer today he's using that hooky thing to get around on ropes I guess? Where does that leave Elizabeth? The rail things seem designed for transport and goods and services - regular people like Elizabeth just walk the street.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2012 23:17
|
|
|
Monster w21 Faces posted:I don't know you're pulling this mythical 12 year old thing from, yeah she's young and she's wearing a corset but it's hardly paedo bait.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2012 23:22
|
|
|
Nilbop posted:The rail things seem designed for transport and goods and services - regular people like Elizabeth just walk the street. Skyrails were originally built for moving freight but individuals started using them to traverse the city when one of the companies in Columbia started selling skyhooks. You can use them and so can enemies. Samurai Sanders posted:It doesn't really bother me how she looks, the only thing that bugs me about all of this is that there are apparently moral implications to how you control her and what you make her do. That's what creeps me out, controlling her and making her do things. You seem to know the most about this game, can you say any more about that? It's not some weird white slavery subtext. Elizabeth wants out, she would rather Booker shoot her in the head then go back to her cage with the Song Bird. She says as much. Booker and Elizabeth are a team, is she can help Booker get her out of Columbia she's going to do everything in her power. And as we see in the horse scene she's not going to 'ask for permission' to use her powers. She's totally up for whatever will help, she just affords Booker, and the player, options in combat situations. Monster w21 Faces fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Oct 21, 2012 |
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2012 23:22
|
|
|
Samurai Sanders posted:It doesn't really bother me how she looks, the only thing that bugs me about all of this is that there are apparently moral implications to how you control her and what you make her do. That's what creeps me out, controlling her and making her do things even if they are to her detriment, that's a part of Japanese games that I don't wish to see repeated here. You seem to know the most about this game, can you say any more about that? Is it just me or are some people really losing their minds over this? I imagine you command her to do things just like you would your squad members in Gears of War or whatever, being restricted by the abilities of the character. "Wait here", "Open a rift", "Yeah, that one", were all heard in the trailers.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2012 23:25
|
|
|
While I have some reservations about the game I expect it to be a shitload of fun, regardless. I only hope giving Elizabeth commands is done as in, say, Abe's Exoddus where you have to greet her every time you look at her.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2012 23:27
|
|
|
Nilbop posted:Is it just me or are some people really losing their minds over this? Anyway, people don't get to pick the things that weird them out, something about this situation rubs me the wrong way even though I've seen it countless times before. But again, my much bigger reservation about the game is how linear it seems, based on the frequency of scripted events in the trailers.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2012 23:30
|
|
|
Monster w21 Faces posted:I don't see why a video game series shouldn't be doing more of this sort of thing with a triple A budget. I am not opposed to outlandish things like fighting mecha-Washington. That sounds pretty awesome, actually. I guess the game would garner more interest in me if there was never a Bioshock 2. I did not enjoy that game, it felt too much like a cash grab. Even if Levine and Co. didn't really have anything to do with the game, it still has the Bioshock name and I'm not confident that publisher pressure won't mar this game with a considerable black streak. Given the problems Irrational Games seems to have had with personnel leaving, I wouldn't doubt that for a second this game franchise has wholly become something I am not interested in. I fear that it may end up being some sort of fusion between Bioshock 1 game mechanics (stylish, cool guns and powers) and the increasingly disappointing and mediocre mechanics that plague the modern FPS genre (linear, cinematic gameplay to the point of being this: Scripted sequence, walk 100 feet and shoot some generic but setting-appropriate enemies, and then another scripted sequence.) That is what I'm referring to when I say "on rails." Monster w21 Faces posted:Again, what is this based on? An E3 'vertical slice' demo from 2011? Considering this is what they had to show for the game at that point, meaning it was, at least in theory, one of the more exciting gameplay sequences that the game had at that point in development, yes. That is what I am basing all of this conjecture on. After reading more about the gameplay, I haven't had anything change my mind, either. AI tag-alongs like Elizabeth don't really have a place in a Bioshock game, but that is okay. Would have been way, way more interesting and definitely more fun if I had her powers as well, or if... god forbid... that it had a Co-op mode where a second player could be Elizabeth.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2012 23:31
|
|
|
Monster w21 Faces posted:I don't know you're pulling this mythical 12 year old thing from, yeah she's young and she's wearing a corset but it's hardly paedo bait. You posted a cosplayer to point out that the in-game character doesn't look like a child?  Tell me that doesn't look like a 12 or 13 year old. It's just creepy. I'll stop making GBS threads up the thread but yeah this is not the kind of thing I'm going to put money toward.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2012 23:32
|
|
|
Ugh, nevermind nevermind. I really hope some solid gameplay videos show up soon.
YOURFRIEND fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Oct 21, 2012 |
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2012 23:34
|
|
|
Even if the story isn't the greatest, I'm hoping the voice acting sells it through. The voice acting trailers were neat to watch, and it looks like Levine is focusing a lot on it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2012 23:40
|
|
|
Samurai Sanders posted:Well, but in games like that you do that because you're in the military and are their commanding officer, this context is a bit different. This part's kind of interesting: exactly what is the context in this case? It seems pretty complex at the get-go even though we obviously haven't seen the entire game/script. - you're supposed to rescue her from Columbia, so there's a bit of a damsel in distress aspect going on, however superficially. - you have to work as a team to get the hell away from crazy people and robot men. You're going to have to communicate in order to work efficiently, and the methods outlined in the videos are about as good as any I've seen work in the mechanical confines of a videogame. - Elizabeth has basically grown up in the confines of an individual or organization, not to mention the weird sort-of protection of the Songbird. In that context, the idea of ordering her around can get pretty uncomfortable, in that she may or may not be used to thinking or acting on her own at the beginning (which, I think, we see she'll learn to get better at later on). That's a lot of stuff, some of it pedestrian and others a little out of left field. But considering even in military man-shooter games you have at least the basic conceit of sending out your bros to possibly die in combat for you and/or the mission, that sounds pretty interesting - at least enough for me to want to play the game and see what happens.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2012 00:11
|
|
|
Taffer posted:You posted a cosplayer to point out that the in-game character doesn't look like a child? It doesn't though, it just looks like a cartoon.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2012 00:17
|
|
|
notZaar posted:It doesn't though, it just looks like a cartoon. Also like a cartoon, her head is about twice the size what it should be if the art style was "realistic." That's all part of the design. I will concede that the whole "choke me" cutscene in the trailer is really weird and creepy. I'm not sure I wanna go down whatever path that may or may not be implying.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2012 00:21
|
|
|
It doesn't look like a 12 or 13 year old to me, but it looks a little creepy regardless. Maybe it won't be as noticeable in-game?
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2012 00:28
|
|
|
Jetfire posted:I will concede that the whole "choke me" cutscene in the trailer is really weird and creepy. I'm not sure I wanna go down whatever path that may or may not be implying. Where the hell are you people getting all this extra poo poo from? It was just a visual cue for "I'd rather have you kill me then get captured by these weirdos" Ugh.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2012 00:36
|
|
|
Al Cu Ad Solte posted:Where the hell are you people getting all this extra poo poo from? It was just a visual cue for "I'd rather have you kill me then get captured by these weirdos"
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2012 00:50
|
|
|
Jetfire posted:Also like a cartoon, her head is about twice the size what it should be if the art style was "realistic." That's all part of the design. Wait, what? Which trailer did that happen in?
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2012 00:50
|
|
|
Al Cu Ad Solte posted:Where the hell are you people getting all this extra poo poo from? It was just a visual cue for "I'd rather have you kill me then get captured by these weirdos" Well yeah, it's just unusual imagery for that kind of moment.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2012 00:54
|
|
|
Man the moral uproar here about this game is blowing my mind. Going crazy over the girl's art direction, or even the notion of telling an npc what to do strikes me as nuts.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2012 00:59
|
|
|
Improbable Lobster posted:Wait, what? Which trailer did that happen in? About 3:10 or so in this trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=attvYJb6xn8 She even says "Promise me, that if it comes to it, you will not let him take me back." Maybe my grasp of English slipped somewhere but I dunno how the gently caress you get anything else out of that except "Don't let them take me alive".
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2012 01:06
|
|
|
It's turning into an unfortunate trend to call something creepy it seems. It's a race to see who can call it first and the outcry gets more and more ridiculous and cut off from reality. It's getting tired and derails every thread it pops up in. What I see is a cartoon woman with a big bust. I'm looking at Ariel from the little mermaid. The cleavage is pandering to an older crowd for sure, but pedophilia?
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2012 01:11
|
|
|
Fooz posted:Man the moral uproar here about this game is blowing my mind. Going crazy over the girl's art direction, or even the notion of telling an npc what to do strikes me as nuts. See, but it's BECAUSE of the art direction that this is happening. Not only is it unnecessary for her to be sexualized like she is, that sexualization is added a ton of subtexts that I don't think the developers were going for. They give her these big expressive eyes to make it easier for her to express emotions and make it easier for the player to empathize, and that's cool. But then they add in the cleavage and it adds this other layer of "Also she's really really fuckable, check out these boobs" that ends up distracting from her characterization. It hurts her as a character so incredibly much, because while they're trying to present this character, the devs are also shoving her boobs in your face. The moral uproar is because they didn't need to add that in, and it even harms the entire presentation of the character, and yet they did it anyway because she's a Girl in a Video Game, so she's gotta have some eye candy for all the dudes playing.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2012 01:15
|
|
|
She has eyes and she has breasts. They really screwed the pooch on this one.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2012 01:18
|
|
|
Crappy Jack posted:See, but it's BECAUSE of the art direction that this is happening. Not only is it unnecessary for her to be sexualized like she is, that sexualization is added a ton of subtexts that I don't think the developers were going for. They give her these big expressive eyes to make it easier for her to express emotions and make it easier for the player to empathize, and that's cool. But then they add in the cleavage and it adds this other layer of "Also she's really really fuckable, check out these boobs" that ends up distracting from her characterization. It hurts her as a character so incredibly much, because while they're trying to present this character, the devs are also shoving her boobs in your face. The moral uproar is because they didn't need to add that in, and it even harms the entire presentation of the character, and yet they did it anyway because she's a Girl in a Video Game, so she's gotta have some eye candy for all the dudes playing. Quick, give her a jean jacket, a shorter haircut and a camera.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2012 01:20
|
|
|
For his part, Ken Levine has no idea why people would ever talk about Elizabeth's breasts and in fact he doesn't even think about them. I imagine he would find this thread title very confusing because he thinks everyone's eyes will go straight to her eyes. So really, it's our fault for talking about her bust, not Irrational's fault for dressing her in that ridiculous getup.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2012 01:21
|
|
|
Strudel Man posted:She has eyes and she has breasts. They really screwed the pooch on this one. Those fat cats in corporate must be pulling the strings on this one! Game looks good. Ken Levine is great. Now continue with the game will bed bad because of boobs and on rails and slavery posts.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2012 01:22
|
|
|
MisterFuzzles posted:She even says "Promise me, that if it comes to it, you will not let him take me back." Maybe my grasp of English slipped somewhere but I dunno how the gently caress you get anything else out of that except "Don't let them take me alive". Yeah, it's absolutely clear that she doesn't mean anything other than that. I'm just saying it's an unusual gesture, at least to me maybe. I'm not trying to imply "ooh she's into BDSM" or anything gross like that. YMMV and I'm fine with that.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2012 01:31
|
|
|
TychoCelchuuu posted:So really, it's our fault for talking about her bust, not Irrational's fault for dressing her in that ridiculous getup. I'm not gonna lie, "why were you looking at polygon titties" is a much better rebuttal to Mysogny In Video Games Oh Boy Oh Boy discussion then it has any right to be.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2012 01:32
|
|
|
Sometimes women have breasts. This is a statement that seems shocking to a lot of goons. The entire game has a Steampunk vibe to it. Even as far as Steampunk dresses go, this is still mildly conservative. I don't know why I'm even trying to defend this, but seriously. We can't just jump down an art directors throat every time their females are wearing something more revealing than a burlap sack. I mean, this is crazy right? We don't say that any handsome guy in a game is just eye candy for the ladies, so why is the opposite true for a pretty woman? I could see the point when and if a female character is overtly sexualized, but that doesn't even come close to describing what we've seen so far of Elizabeth in this game. All we really have to go on is that she has cleavage in the same manner that tops are sold for women every day all around the world. I think at some point people are just looking for things to complain about and trying to white knight a female game character just seems really easy to do. If you really want to complain about the female form being objectified in the video game medium, maybe try the Dead or Alive thread or something.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2012 01:42
|
|
|
MelvinTheJerk posted:The entire game has a Steampunk vibe to it. Even as far as Steampunk dresses go, this is still mildly conservative. I don't know why I'm even trying to defend this, but seriously. We can't just jump down an art directors throat every time their females are wearing something more revealing than a burlap sack. Steampunk, being an invented style, lacks even the thin validity of "Well people used to dress like this." The designers had a choice between a period or quasi-period modest outfit, or eye candy, and I think if sales are their only goal then they probably made the right choice. I've noticed the annoyance that usually bubbles up around ridiculous female character outfits sharpening over the past few years, so hopefully one day designers will have to cater to that viewpoint instead of the tomb raider crowd.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2012 01:51
|
|
|
Will this finally be the "Shock" game that is actually better than System Shock 2? No, probably not. Tell me more about breasts Ken Levine.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2012 01:52
|
|
|
ThePhenomenalBaby posted:Will this finally be the "Shock" game that is actually better than System Shock 2?
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2012 01:54
|
|
|
Heh, I actually hope their next game is a reimagining (to avoid IP bullshit, etc) of Citadel Station. I'd actually be excited about that as Infinite has done nothing for me 
Xaris fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Oct 22, 2012 |
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2012 01:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 11:20 |
|
|
A System Shock remake would be incredible. There's still nothing else like it. Also I wish Bioshock would mimic it in the sense that you have to find and activate the regeneration thing before you can use it, to make it more like the save points in Metroid of what have you. Does this game even have those things? edit: I especially want a remake because the new X-COM finally taught me that it is indeed possible to make a good remake of an 90s PC game with its core gameplay elements intact. edit: the great thing about those regen systems in SS1 is the implication that when you die, the enemies are picking you up and sticking you into it so it will turn you into a zombie cyborg like them, but since you hacked it it just restores you to normal. That, and the new-U system in Borderlands, are the best in-game explanations for respawning I have ever seen. Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Oct 22, 2012 |
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2012 01:56
|
|