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It's mentioned somewhere in book 2 that the Heroes follow the Horn, regardless of whether that person is Light or Dark. So it would probably be worth it to the DO et. al. to get themselves some Brigette/Hawkwing/Gaidal Cain action at the least.
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Oct 3, 2012 23:42
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Yea, horn and banner are both integral to parts of the prophecy of the dragon reborn, so it makes sense for the dark one to try and get his hands on it.
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Oct 3, 2012 23:54
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Daedalus Esquire posted:Yea, horn and banner are both integral to parts of the prophecy of the dragon reborn, so it makes sense for the dark one to try and get his hands on it. But if the Dark One & his buddies controlled the Eye of the World, either through turning Rand or through the reawakened Foresaken then what need do they have for the horn & banner? Wouldn't the Eye enable them to break the Dark One free from his prison? At that point aren't all bets off, game over? Once the Dark One is free he wins, the Light loses, and the Wheel stops turning, right? I've put much more thought into this than it is worth and I think Calenth's line of thinking - "Ta'veren is old tongue for "because the plot needed it to happen that way." is correct. The only thing is there is a line from Aginor (page 748 in my US paperback) where he says "So long without, so long". The WOT Chapter Summaries indicates that this is talking about the One Power, so maybe the Foresaken did not have access to the One Power yet for some reason (DO's prison not weak enough, etc) so the Eye gives them access to the One Power to do whatever they need to do.
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Oct 4, 2012 00:13
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I'd think it was a trap. See, you send fancy dream thingies to the Light side, taunting them with a treasure they have to honor and can't pass up-the Eye of the World. In doing so, you bring the Dragon Reborn two steps from your front door, deep in the Blight away from support, and you make your move there. Of course, you can't really expect the last survivor of a dead species to pop up and Vine Whip one of your soldiers to death, another to be dumb and overextend himself, and the Dragon himself to take the big bad treasure you taunted him with and use it to zap you. I mean, how were you supposed to plan around the Dragon Reborn being a ta'veren? (a lot of things in the earlier books can be explained by Ishamael is a dumbass)
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Oct 4, 2012 10:20
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Crini posted:But if the Dark One & his buddies controlled the Eye of the World, either through turning Rand or through the reawakened Foresaken then what need do they have for the horn & banner? Wouldn't the Eye enable them to break the Dark One free from his prison? At that point aren't all bets off, game over? Once the Dark One is free he wins, the Light loses, and the Wheel stops turning, right?
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Oct 4, 2012 11:32
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Crini posted:And then why are valuable items like the horn & the banner at the bottom, what good would they be if the Eye was used to defeat the DO by repairing the prison? Edit: whoops, missed that there had been another page of replies.
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Oct 4, 2012 17:04
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Yesterday I nabbed The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time for super cheap. Leafing through the pages, there are several instances of the Seanchen being depicted as straight up Japanese. One of them even has a red sun flag in the background, with a woman in a leash and collar. Is this how we are supposed to be picturing them in the books? That imagery is pretty messed up. It seems pretty racist, what with the "Empress" and their intense imperialism. I guess, with the slurring accents, I never stopped looking at them as manifest destiny fantasy Texans. Anyone have any thoughts on this? I can post that picture of them if anyone wants to see it.
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Oct 4, 2012 22:56
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AreYouStillThere posted:Yesterday I nabbed The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time for super cheap. Leafing through the pages, there are several instances of the Seanchen being depicted as straight up Japanese. One of them even has a red sun flag in the background, with a woman in a leash and collar. Is this how we are supposed to be picturing them in the books? That imagery is pretty messed up. It seems pretty racist, what with the "Empress" and their intense imperialism. That book has such terrible art. Just awful. I don't know if I'd take any of the art as accurate. Especially since when it came out I don't think the Daughter of the Nine Moons had been introduced yet.
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Oct 5, 2012 00:59
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Crini posted:That book has such terrible art. Just awful. I don't know if I'd take any of the art as accurate. Especially since when it came out I don't think the Daughter of the Nine Moons had been introduced yet. It is colloquially referred to as the "Big Book of Bad Art" for a reason.
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Oct 5, 2012 06:36
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AreYouStillThere posted:Yesterday I nabbed The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time for super cheap. Leafing through the pages, there are several instances of the Seanchen being depicted as straight up Japanese. One of them even has a red sun flag in the background, with a woman in a leash and collar. Is this how we are supposed to be picturing them in the books? That imagery is pretty messed up. It seems pretty racist, what with the "Empress" and their intense imperialism. The Seanchan are a mix of Texas (accents/some looks I guess)/Imperial China/Ottoman Empire mostly, with some Alexander the Great (Hawkwing) thrown in. Never got that much of a Japan wibe from them, but some of the Borderlands and Cairhien got parts of Japan in them though. Lots of Asian/European culture mixes going around in WoT though.
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Oct 5, 2012 21:15
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Antioch posted:It is colloquially referred to as the "Big Book of Bad Art" for a reason. Well..it will...look pretty on the shelf I guess? It was cheap enough that I don't mind. Hard to believe they wanted 40 bucks for it when it was first released though. Glad to know I can dismiss that particular painting, though in the Wheel of Time role playing book they had a picture of a Seanchen wearing samurai armor. I should go back and make sure it wasn't supposed to be a Shienaran though. The best part of the bad art book is the ogiers. Oh lord, the ogiers.
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Oct 5, 2012 22:34
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Wasn't Tuon referred to as "black porcelain" though?
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Oct 5, 2012 22:54
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The aiel have a combination Irish+Japan thing. Try are all redheads who love whiskey with weird Japanese honor rules. I think seanchan armor is supposed to be kinda Japanese, its made of lacquered plates with weird helmets, though culturally I don't think they get too much
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Oct 5, 2012 23:52
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Daedalus Esquire posted:The aiel have a combination Irish+Japan thing. Try are all redheads who love whiskey with weird Japanese honor rules. All the sept/clan stuff is straight up scottish, who had weird honour stuff of a sort, and they are early on said to have pipers who play them into battle and don't like to fight without their music, though that seems to have fallen by the wayside. And they apparently have some zulu and aborigine in there too, though all the talk of the dream kinda faded from the speech of non-wise one aiel. Mish mash of warrior cultures. I know, intellectually. that the descriptions of seanchan helmets as buglike and the segmented armour is meant to evoke something like this. But I originally took it as much more literal and just have an image in my mind like a weird medieval mashup of different things.
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Oct 6, 2012 02:26
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For Seanchan/China stuff: "Traces of black paint on these figures suggest that the Qin may have used black lacquered plates to form coat of plates and lamellar for their armour." From the Terracotta Army. Then there's stuff like "of the Blue/Green" when describing the navy and other ranks in Seanchan. Make me think of the Manchu Eight Banners system. "The Eight Banners were created at the same time as the Manchu ethnic group was created from the Jurchen people. The Chinese banners were known as the "Nikan" Banners, made out of a massive amount of Chinese POWs and defectors." They also had a "Green Standard Army" So there's a dividing line between "loyal" and "disloyal" forces. And of course, The real Ever Victorious Army
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Oct 6, 2012 08:51
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I'm one of those lost-interest-at-book-10 like a lot of fans out there. So having started the reread along with this thread, I am now in book 11 for the first time. I have to say, I've already had two jaw drop moments and I'm only 30% in. The opening scene with Galad and Valda was amazing. Finding out what was in Thom's letter he's been fingering for literally 6 books at this point was spine-tingling. Major return to form here. Also, because I can (I really am a gigantic fan, it's embarrassing):  It should be finished just in time for A Memory of Light.
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Oct 18, 2012 20:38
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AlternateAccount posted:Wasn't Tuon referred to as "black porcelain" though? Yes, several times actually. Looks like Mat is into women of other races. Although I don't think race is that big a deal in WoT. Unless you're Aiel, of course.
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Oct 19, 2012 04:31
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AreYouStillThere posted:I have to say, I've already had two jaw drop moments and I'm only 30% in. The opening scene with Galad and Valda was amazing. Finding out what was in Thom's letter he's been fingering for literally 6 books at this point was spine-tingling. Major return to form here. Right!? I am at about the same spot. As someone who STILL kinda hates the way Moiraine was sidelined for over half the series, that moment is an amazing bit of characterization.Her calm determination and fatalistic self-sacrifice is really amazing. A lot of lip service is dealt out by a lot of characters about what their motivations are or what they are willing to do, but it's rarely truthful or complete. Moiraine was out to put Rand where he needed to be and protect him and was willing to do anything. She knew she'd be tortured for a good long time, but never really faltered or hesitated. Theangryhobo posted:Yes, several times actually. Looks like Mat is into women of other races. Although I don't think race is that big a deal in WoT. Unless you're Aiel, of course. It's weird. Maybe it's something specific to Tuon? And you'd think that being so dark would stand out HUGELY and she could never be allowed to be seen in public, and that's not the case. It typically talks about Seanchan being mostly recognizable by their speech pattern and not any physical characteristic. It never discusses Egeanin's complexion, does it? It's very confusing and probably doesn't matter much. AlternateAccount fucked around with this message at 06:56 on Oct 19, 2012 |
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Oct 19, 2012 06:47
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I'm almost done with Knife of Dreams now and two things stand out, I guess I will spoiler them, it's mostly about the Seanchan and Tuon. It's a bit silly on how the seanchan can arbitrarily believe in omens while discarding things like Trollocs and Eelfinn and whatnot while they live in a world of magic and a literal satan character trying to end the world. But that's just a quirk that I guess adds to the charm of the silly Seanchan and their ignorant ways which we will hopefully see torn to shreds good and proper before the end of the series. And Tuon, wow what can I say? She is an unapologetic slaver that for a hobby enjoys destroying the minds of women who can channel and turn them into former shadows of themselves, little more than intelligent animals. It's almost worse than murder, maybe it is worse than murder actually, I dunno its pretty goddamn evil and repulsive though. Morally I have difficulty seeing how she differs from a darkfriend. Not a big deal since the series is chock full of evil people after all, except I get the impression the author is trying to make me like her or give the impression she is supposed to be a good guy.
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Oct 19, 2012 08:06
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His Divine Shadow posted:It's a bit silly on how the seanchan can arbitrarily believe in omens while discarding things like Trollocs and Eelfinn and whatnot while they live in a world of magic and a literal satan character trying to end the world. But that's just a quirk that I guess adds to the charm of the silly Seanchan and their ignorant ways which we will hopefully see torn to shreds good and proper before the end of the series. Remember at the start of the series nobody in the southern lands believed in Trollocs either. It's easy not to believe in things you can't see, and just as easily a lot of the abilities taken for granted on this side have no basis in setting at all, save for the word of one with the ability and Aes Sedai(who nobody trusts, especially not the Seanchan)
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Oct 19, 2012 08:29
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His Divine Shadow posted:I'm almost done with Knife of Dreams now and two things stand out, I guess I will spoiler them, it's mostly about the Seanchan and Tuon. I think the point with that characterization is that Jordan's trying to at least argue that a lot of the perception of "evil" is cultural. In Tuon's mind, what she does is a necessary evil; if someone didn't control Aes Sedai, there'd be another Breaking of the World! Now, the narrative overall is also very clear that those actions are evil. I think the ultimate point is "well intentioned, likeable, "good" people can still do horribly evil things if they don't know any better because of their culture."
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Oct 19, 2012 14:34
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AlternateAccount posted:It's weird. Maybe it's something specific to Tuon? And you'd think that being so dark would stand out HUGELY and she could never be allowed to be seen in public, and that's not the case. It typically talks about Seanchan being mostly recognizable by their speech pattern and not any physical characteristic. It never discusses Egeanin's complexion, does it? It's very confusing and probably doesn't matter much. It's not specific to Tuon, plenty of Seanchan are darkskinned, Semirhage is darkskinned, the Sea Folk are darkskinned. To Randlanders the Sea Folk are accounted exotic and beautiful. One of the new memories Mat has is of the night immediately before the kick-off of the Trolloc Wars, when he was dancing with a Sea Folk emissary in the palace of ... I think ... Coremanda? ... one of the Ten Nations that will be destroyed in the war. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Oct 19, 2012 |
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Oct 19, 2012 15:06
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AlternateAccount posted:Right!? I am at about the same spot. As someone who STILL kinda hates the way Moiraine was sidelined for over half the series, that moment is an amazing bit of characterization.Her calm determination and fatalistic self-sacrifice is really amazing. A lot of lip service is dealt out by a lot of characters about what their motivations are or what they are willing to do, but it's rarely truthful or complete. Moiraine was out to put Rand where he needed to be and protect him and was willing to do anything. She knew she'd be tortured for a good long time, but never really faltered or hesitated. From the WotWiki with the AWFUL fan-art(?) focus character art (even when there's better available artwork): >Egeanin is tall, thin, fair-skinned with dark hair and sharp blue eyes. I believe there are a couple of blond Seanchan running around - the darker skinned ones are from a specific area I believe? It's a mix anyhow. Mainland Randia is more asian/typical european excet for the western and southern nations which is mostly some sort of mix of Iberian/Italian etc.
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Oct 19, 2012 16:12
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Yeah, now that you mention it, I seem to remember just recently reading that one of the Seanchan that Perrin meets had blonde hair. Wtf.
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Oct 19, 2012 16:52
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I think the general implication is that skin tone, hair, coloration, etc., is a lot more generally variable in Randland than it is in present-day earth (possibly due to scattering of peoples during the Breaking). The Aiel are a distinct people, of course, as are the Sea Folk, and there's general regional trends (i.e., most everyone in Two Rivers has brown hair; Cairhienin trend small) but it's not the same degree of uniformity. I think with the Seanchan this trend is really exaggerated and it's all about power and rank, not race -- basically anybody can theoretically get demoted to abject slavery or promoted to the Blood on a moment's notice, so "blood" has become more a status marker than a racial marker. You could probably write a decent research paper on the Seanchan, slavery, and Jordan as a "southern writer." Overall Randland society doesn't seem to have much in the way of racial bias (apart from, oddly enough, everyone thinking the Aiel are crazy murderers), just a LOT of social/class and gender bias. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Oct 19, 2012 |
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Oct 19, 2012 17:36
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Seanchan is a big loving place - bigger than Randland is, I think, so I'm not surprised there are a few dark skinned and light skinned peeps over there, only a small fraction of the people there would have been Hawkwing's people after all. Tuon is dark, but not all Seanchan are. It doesn't seem to be a big deal in WoT, actually. None of the characters seem to pay it much heed, hell Rand stands out more for being a redhead than any character's skin colour singles them out. Julin Sandar is pretty much straight up described as a black guy, and of the forsaken not just Semhirage, but Rahvin too is described as having a darker complexion. The Saldeans always came across to me as middle-eastern too, actually.
Rohan Kishibe fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Oct 19, 2012 |
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Oct 19, 2012 17:38
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The Seanchan invasion is also similar in ways to the colonization of the Americas. You've got a superior force (if the invasion had happened five years earlier, nothing in Randland could have stopped damane) plus a huge contingent of settlers who are slowly consuming native culture. WoT is fun like that. You can take almost any major historical or religious event and find an analogue in the story.
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Oct 19, 2012 20:28
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I'm curious to see if Aviendha can find a way to stop her viewing of the future, where the Seanchan run everything, from occuring. Probably not.
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Oct 20, 2012 18:35
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For anyone who had trouble swallowing the Saldean horse demonstration like I did, I swear Jordan must have watched this video for inspiration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSJ0LykFAp4
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Oct 21, 2012 22:34
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:For anyone who had trouble swallowing the Saldean horse demonstration like I did, I swear Jordan must have watched this video for inspiration: 2010 OTP Lovas Világkupa Kozákok bemutatója James Oliver Rigney, Jr. (October 17, 1948 – September 16, 2007) 
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Oct 23, 2012 22:00
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The precise year is kinda irrelevant, showy horse-handling like described in that passage has been around for millenia. Especially considering the Saldaens are Saraceny-Persiany-Mongoly-Cossacky type culture.
Willie Tomg fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Oct 24, 2012 |
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Oct 23, 2012 22:52
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Finally finished book ten. I feel like I just took a huge dump after weeks of constipation. Here's hoping the rest is worth what I just suffered through.
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Oct 24, 2012 12:28
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basx posted:I feel like I just took a huge dump after weeks of constipation.
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Oct 24, 2012 13:03
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Well let's be honest, it's a loving slog, and book 9 and 10 loving suck. There are moments in the two that are amazing, but in general the two books could have been summed up in two chapters of a good Jordan or Sanderson book.
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Oct 24, 2012 13:27
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Lascivious Sloth posted:Well let's be honest, it's a loving slog, and book 9 and 10 loving suck. There are moments in the two that are amazing, but in general the two books could have been summed up in two chapters of a good Jordan or Sanderson book. Well no, that's not honest at all.
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Oct 24, 2012 13:41
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basx posted:Finally finished book ten. I feel like I just took a huge dump after weeks of constipation. It's more than worth it (if you didn't enjoy it). Knife of dreams is where the dominos start to fall.
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Oct 25, 2012 16:57
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His Divine Shadow posted:I'm almost done with Knife of Dreams now and two things stand out, I guess I will spoiler them, it's mostly about the Seanchan and Tuon. seanchan: I think it's kind of obvious that the author is painting the seanchan as the better society, apart from the way they treat people who channel, well, and slavery of course. You can see there's famine/unrest in the lands that are conquered by the taveren/Elayne while the lands conquered by the Seanchan are safe and prosperous. Just like in Aviendha's vision it's the Ail/Randland that starts up the conflict again after the dragon made peace. on Elayne/Andor: All during the fight for the power of Andor I kept feeling like there were (not very) subtle hints that a lot of bloodshed could be avoided if they just made Dyelin the next queen. It felt like the only reason we were supposed to root for Elayne was because we just happened to be following her POV and that Dyelin would be the better choice.
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Nov 4, 2012 17:44
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Posting via phone, not gonna quote or spoil anything, but this is missing the point by a lot. Herid Fel said in LoC that belief and order are important. This is a central theme of the series. The belief doesn't have to be in a higher earthly or heavenly power, just that people are together and things can and will get better, etc. When you see things like famine and rioting and disaster, always look for the presence or hand of the Forsaken or the Shadow itself. There is no exception save that of how insane and hosed up Rand himself is getting. Perrin is doing a good job with the Two Rivers, Mat is a great leader of the Band, the Seanchan have brought order and unity to lands fractured by infighting and chaos (Tylin only controlled the hundred or so miles around Ebou Dar, Tanchico was in the midst of a massive multi faction civil war, etc), no wonder they are doing better unified under the Seanchan.
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Nov 4, 2012 19:26
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Just finished The Gathering Storm. I am impressed. It started off slow and the constant use of character POVs questioning themselves incessantly really wore me down. (Am I doing the right thing? Do I have a choice? There's nothing else I can do...is there?) Especially when it was Perrin as I've never been a huge fan. No clue whether that was RJ or Sanderson though. The scene with Semirhage was awesome. It completely surprised me and I had to cover my mouth to disguise my "oh" of horror. I thought for a minute there he might actually kill Min and I was all oh gently caress no End of TGS spoilers: FINALLY something went right when Egwene is met by the Aes Sedai BEFORE she could attack. I just knew it was going to be one of those "if you'd only waited 5 more minutes!" Thank god. Asmodean spoilers from Towers of Midnight (I think): I couldn't take it anymore and had to go look it up. Graendal? REALLY? That was supposed to be "intuitively obvious"?
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Nov 7, 2012 01:37
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api call girl posted:Posting via phone, not gonna quote or spoil anything, but this is missing the point by a lot. Herid Fel said in LoC that belief and order are important. This is a central theme of the series. The belief doesn't have to be in a higher earthly or heavenly power, just that people are together and things can and will get better, etc. Pretty much, belief and order give strength. The rest of the land has nothing left to believe in, their savior looks to be going completely insane and they're STILL backbiting and sniping at each other. The Seanchan have belief. They have an absolute faith in their empress. They have order, overwhelming military force allows them to implement a version of Hawkwing's peace. Thus they do better.
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Nov 7, 2012 05:16
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