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Grand Fromage posted:That one's not a legend. Some parts might've been fabrication and there are a few different stories, but some guys who were monks or disguised as them definitely stole silkworms and techniques from the Chinese (a very carefully guarded Chinese state secret) and sold/gave them to the Romans during Justinian's reign. Either independently for profit or sent out by Justinian to do it. One of the great spy missions of history.
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# ? Nov 12, 2012 03:06 |
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# ? May 13, 2024 11:34 |
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I'm still pretty surprised there's yet to be a Hollywood movie on the stealing of silk from the Chinese. Romans? Massive spy operation? Evil Chinese we must steal secrets from? It has every aspect of a blockbuster.
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# ? Nov 12, 2012 03:21 |
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Tao Jones posted:Astronomy had been pretty well-developed by the Greeks, Egyptians, Babylonians, and other ancient people. The main text for ancient astronomy is Ptolemy's Almagest, written around 150 AD. (Well, Ptolemy called it the 'mathematical syntaxis' or 'mathematical index'; Almagest is what the Arabs called it.) This is a good post that shouldn't just fall off and be ignored. Thanks man.
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# ? Nov 12, 2012 04:00 |
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Amused to Death posted:I'm still pretty surprised there's yet to be a Hollywood movie on the stealing of silk from the Chinese. Romans? Massive spy operation? Evil Chinese we must steal secrets from? It has every aspect of a blockbuster. Speaking of which, has there ever been a movie set in the Eastern Roman Empire? It is so depressingly neglected. Though given how awesome the Rome HBO series was I would take some regular old Roman Empire movies, last big one I remember was Gladiator.
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# ? Nov 12, 2012 04:25 |
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Taken 2
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# ? Nov 12, 2012 04:58 |
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OctaviusBeaver posted:Speaking of which, has there ever been a movie set in the Eastern Roman Empire? It is so depressingly neglected. Though given how awesome the Rome HBO series was I would take some regular old Roman Empire movies, last big one I remember was Gladiator.
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# ? Nov 12, 2012 11:25 |
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OctaviusBeaver posted:Speaking of which, has there ever been a movie set in the Eastern Roman Empire? There's this small list, none of which look particulary promising: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Films_set_in_the_Byzantine_Empire
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# ? Nov 12, 2012 15:29 |
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How clearly defined were the separate domains of the roman gods? Was it as simple as one god for each individual aspect of life, or was there a lot of overlapping?
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# ? Nov 12, 2012 17:12 |
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SlothfulCobra posted:How clearly defined were the separate domains of the roman gods? Was it as simple as one god for each individual aspect of life, or was there a lot of overlapping? That's kind of the wrong question. The Roman/Greek conception of the gods is to imagine an episode of Jersey Shore where all the characters have super-powers.
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# ? Nov 12, 2012 17:22 |
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Jazerus posted:Basically, yeah, Scandinavia was an island probably full of monsters and nearly superhuman barbarians just waiting for an opportunity to ruin everyone's day. I assume a few Romans had probably been there and knew better, as with Ethiopia, but we don't have any evidence. There's quite good archaeological evidence of Scandinavians having returned home after serving in the legions though
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# ? Nov 12, 2012 17:29 |
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SlothfulCobra posted:How clearly defined were the separate domains of the roman gods? Was it as simple as one god for each individual aspect of life, or was there a lot of overlapping? Its very vague and complex. Alongside the big state deities you have gods of local rivers/fields/whatever, ancestor family spirits, various imports like Isis and Mithras plus maybe some hang over local gods that are semi-merged with the others brought from outside (so you worship "Jupiter" but to you hes also whatever local big sky god your great grandparents prayed to and has some small differences from the "Jupiter" worshiped on the other end of the Empire). Then there's the weird stuff like Fates and Furies that are more like natural forces and not fully humanized and viewed kind of differently. Then you've got stuff like changes over time and the varying view points because this belief system was followed over 100s(1,000s?) of years by a wide array of people. For example, how Athena's domain over war is different from Ares' and then how the Roman war god Mars is a different combination but modern people just say "oh ok Ares = Mars".
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# ? Nov 12, 2012 17:56 |
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Fornadan posted:There's quite good archaeological evidence of Scandinavians having returned home after serving in the legions though Vsrangian Guard, for sure. But I was not aware of any evidence of Scandinavians serving during the early Imperial period.
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# ? Nov 12, 2012 18:06 |
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OctaviusBeaver posted:Speaking of which, has there ever been a movie set in the Eastern Roman Empire? It is so depressingly neglected. Though given how awesome the Rome HBO series was I would take some regular old Roman Empire movies, last big one I remember was Gladiator. There were some great characters and great stories in Byzantine history - you can imagine the life of Belisarius as a Charlton Heston-type epic very easily, for instance. I don't think they've ever got past the prejudice of Western Catholicism against an Orthodox empire that they faced throughout the Middle Ages; later on you also got a lot of Enlightenment-era people like Gibbon who weren't keen on the church full stop and so preferred Rome before it went Christian. For 1500-odd years, influential cultural figures have been telling everyone else about how great Rome was. The Eastern Empire has never had that fanbase.
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# ? Nov 12, 2012 20:08 |
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So in historiography, Theodosius is the emperor of Rome. After his death, the empire is divided up into Eastern and Western halves with an Eastern emperor and Western emperor. This had happened before, but the Empire had always been united again under a sole emperor who was just called the emperor of Rome. So why was the next sole Roman emperor called the only the emperor of the East? Very frustrating.
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# ? Nov 12, 2012 20:43 |
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Xguard86 posted:Its very vague and complex. Alongside the big state deities you have gods of local rivers/fields/whatever, ancestor family spirits, various imports like Isis and Mithras plus maybe some hang over local gods that are semi-merged with the others brought from outside (so you worship "Jupiter" but to you hes also whatever local big sky god your great grandparents prayed to and has some small differences from the "Jupiter" worshiped on the other end of the Empire). If the Roman gods are too much of a melange of different cultures' religions, how about the greek gods? Are they any more clearly defined?
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# ? Nov 13, 2012 00:44 |
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SlothfulCobra posted:If the Roman gods are too much of a melange of different cultures' religions, how about the greek gods? Are they any more clearly defined? No. See: Artemis, virginal huntress moon fertility goddess, or her brother Apollo the healing archer sun prophecy god. e: I'm teaching a class on Greek & Roman myth & religion next term, and I am not all up on the research yet, but once I have things more together in my brain maybe I'll do a big effortpost if this thread is still going. Eggplant Wizard fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Nov 13, 2012 |
# ? Nov 13, 2012 00:58 |
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sullat posted:There is the legend of the Roman legionnaires captured at Carrahae and sold as slaves or as mercenaries who ended up in Western China. Just a legend, of course, backed up by on;y a few slivers (probably misinterpreted) of evidence, but it makes for a good story. Sounds like part of the inspiration for Gore Vidal's Creation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_(novel)
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# ? Nov 13, 2012 01:37 |
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Kopijeger posted:There's this small list, none of which look particulary promising: My god, it's full of stars. I need to see this litany of losers. sullat posted:Vsrangian Guard, for sure. But I was not aware of any evidence of Scandinavians serving during the early Imperial period. I'm not sure what evidence he's referring to but there was contact for sure. There was a fort posted earlier in the thread that showed Roman military influence in Scandinavia, and the amber/fur trade. Denmark bordered the empire just barely. I would guess some of the "Germans" in the legions were from Scandinavia. Eggplant Wizard posted:e: I'm teaching a class on Greek & Roman myth & religion next term, and I am not all up on the research yet, but once I have things more together in my brain maybe I'll do a big effortpost if this thread is still going. Please do. We shall keep the thread burning forever.
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# ? Nov 13, 2012 03:09 |
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First - thanks for the thoughts on Carcopino. He wrote in 1940 so I know he's out of date, but I was just curious whether he was "we've learned more" out of date or "oh, you poor benighted soul" out of date. Ms. Wizard and Mr. Fromage, this may be out of line, but is there interest in/a possibility of changing this to a Greek/Roman (or just "ancient/classical Mediterranean/Europe") thread? Or is that too much overlap with the "Classicists" thread? (third: am I overdosing on slashes? The answer may be yes!)
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# ? Nov 13, 2012 03:12 |
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Nah, Roman thread. Romans are better. Talking about other Mediterranean stuff is totally fine since it was all connected. Or make an ancient Mediterranean thread and then this thread can go conquer it.
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# ? Nov 13, 2012 03:14 |
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Besesoth posted:First - thanks for the thoughts on Carcopino. He wrote in 1940 so I know he's out of date, but I was just curious whether he was "we've learned more" out of date or "oh, you poor benighted soul" out of date. Absolutely not. Done. The SAL Classics thread is pretty slow and more academicy and I think it's okay how it is. This one definitely gets more non-nerd traffic. Well, non-professional nerd, anyway. Your addressing me as Ms. Wizard made me realize how totally sweet it's going to be when I finish my PhD and get to go "THAT'S DR. WIZARD TO YOU! I DIDN'T GO TO SCHOOL FOR 7 YEARS TO BE CALLED MS.!" Yes, I do mean on the forums. Eggplant Wizard fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Nov 13, 2012 |
# ? Nov 13, 2012 03:25 |
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General Panic posted:There were some great characters and great stories in Byzantine history - you can imagine the life of Belisarius as a Charlton Heston-type epic very easily, for instance. I don't think they've ever got past the prejudice of Western Catholicism against an Orthodox empire that they faced throughout the Middle Ages; later on you also got a lot of Enlightenment-era people like Gibbon who weren't keen on the church full stop and so preferred Rome before it went Christian. I'd recommend a couple of things for Byzantine history if you are interested: Count Belisarius by Robert Graves (same guy who wrote I Claudius. This time Livia is not a stand in for his mother.) The Secret History by Procopius. Probably not where you should start, but it is crazy old timey slander Nonfiction - Byzantium: The Empire of the New Rome by Cyril Mango. Its a little dry, but sort of a travelogue, and you get a feel for how fractured the Eastern Roman Empire was
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# ? Nov 13, 2012 03:38 |
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The cynic in me says the Eastern roman/Byzantine empire lacks popularity due to some squabble and whatnot with the Catholic church, leading to some unpleasant events during the fourth crusade. Also Turkish conquest would have made it impossible for those enlightened Italians to go and sing praises of the Byzantines, despite them having preserved the art of not throwing your feces in the water supply for a lot longer.
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# ? Nov 13, 2012 03:38 |
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Eggplant Wizard posted:Your addressing me as Ms. Wizard made me realize how totally sweet it's going to be when I finish my PhD and get to go "THAT'S DR. WIZARD TO YOU! I DIDN'T GO TO SCHOOL FOR 7 YEARS TO BE CALLED MS.!" Yes, I do mean on the forums.[/sub] I solemnly swear to refer to you as "Ms. Wizard" after your degree is awarded just so you can say that.
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# ? Nov 13, 2012 03:43 |
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This is the Roman thread forever and always
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# ? Nov 13, 2012 04:03 |
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Grand Fromage posted:Nah, Roman thread. Romans are better. I think is is seriously my favorite post in this thread
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# ? Nov 13, 2012 04:16 |
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I'm going to post a thread named "Ask me about being a barbarian" and come in and ruin you all.
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# ? Nov 13, 2012 04:33 |
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I love this thread.
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# ? Nov 13, 2012 04:47 |
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Does this mean that I can ask about the Greek Dark Ages now, and not be directed to a different thread?
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# ? Nov 13, 2012 04:56 |
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Hedera Helix posted:Does this mean that I can ask about the Greek Dark Ages now, and not be directed to a different thread? Yes. I don't know poo poo about them though so good luck.
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# ? Nov 13, 2012 04:58 |
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Hedera Helix posted:Does this mean that I can ask about the Greek Dark Ages now, and not be directed to a different thread? What would you like to know about them? I've got a couple books on the shelf.
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# ? Nov 13, 2012 04:59 |
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Eggplant Wizard posted:Yes. I was in the middle of posting literally the exact same thing. Rome isn't all I know but it's most of what I know in detail.
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# ? Nov 13, 2012 05:02 |
cheerfullydrab posted:So in historiography, Theodosius is the emperor of Rome. After his death, the empire is divided up into Eastern and Western halves with an Eastern emperor and Western emperor. This had happened before, but the Empire had always been united again under a sole emperor who was just called the emperor of Rome. So why was the next sole Roman emperor called the only the emperor of the East? Very frustrating. Nobody was ever sole emperor of the full Empire ever again - though de facto Constantinople continued to have significant influence on the West. If you mean, "why is it that, once the Western emperor position no longer existed, the Romans didn't go back to just calling the Eastern emperor 'the emperor'?", then the short answer is that they never stopped. East vs. West was not an official distinction - they used the same titles and hypothetically had power over the other's half too, though of course only the East actually could intervene in the West's affairs. If you're asking why historians call guys like Justinian "Emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire" instead of "Emperor of the Roman Empire", it's because they fall on the other side of the Roman/Byzantine divide, which is a useful distinction to make, but Byzantine isn't considered to be a very relevant term anymore so "Eastern Roman" is substituted for it, sometimes awkwardly. Phobophilia posted:I'm going to post a thread named "Ask me about being a barbarian" and come in and ruin you all. Sorry, that's scheduled for page 476. You're a bit early.
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# ? Nov 13, 2012 05:08 |
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Besesoth posted:What would you like to know about them? I've got a couple books on the shelf. To begin with, what exactly happened? What caused it? How total was the collapse of the Mycenaean civilization? How much survived? How did the region fare, in comparison to the other Bronze Age societies?
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# ? Nov 13, 2012 06:02 |
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Hedera Helix posted:To begin with, what exactly happened? What caused it? How total was the collapse of the Mycenaean civilization? How much survived? How did the region fare, in comparison to the other Bronze Age societies? If I'm remembering correctly, it was a pretty general collapse across the Eastern Med. There's a lot of evidence that some sort of roving barbarian peoples (the 'Sea Peoples') may have been a cause... or a symptom. We do know that population levels dropped, a coupla empires came apart at the seams, and there's a lot more emphasis on fortification in the architecture of the time.
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# ? Nov 13, 2012 07:24 |
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Any solid ideas about who the Sea People were? Wikipedia gives out a laundry list of possible IDs and then just lists all the stuff they tore up.
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# ? Nov 13, 2012 07:37 |
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Nope. The Bronze Age Collapse is one of the great mysteries of the ancient world. There are lots of hypotheses but very little in the way of answers.
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# ? Nov 13, 2012 07:41 |
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Grand Fromage posted:Nope. The Bronze Age Collapse is one of the great mysteries of the ancient world. There are lots of hypotheses but very little in the way of answers. Would you (or someone) care to give a little background for those of us (possibly just me) who are just hearing about this now?
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# ? Nov 13, 2012 08:52 |
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Base Emitter posted:Would you (or someone) care to give a little background for those of us (possibly just me) who are just hearing about this now? I think we've hit the highlights. Okay, before the Dark Age there must be a light, in this case, the Hittites in Anatolia, the Mycenaean Palace Builders in Greece (e.g. those guys who went and fought in the Iliad), and Egypt had a good, more or less contemporary run at things. At a certain point, the Hittites collapse, and the Greek palace complexes are abandoned, destroyed, or become heavily militarized. Meanwhile, the Egyptians have to put up with some narsty marauders of some sort, but seem to weather the whole ordeal a bit better. And that's... really all we know for sure. The Greek writing system at the end of this ends up looking a lot different than it did at the start, so a lot of people think there was some migratory chain pushing going on from north or west of the Greek heartlands. e: More authoritative people feel free to chime in, I'm away from my basic Greek textbook and I'm running on memories and wikipedia.
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# ? Nov 13, 2012 09:15 |
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# ? May 13, 2024 11:34 |
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Were there significant population losses, loss of technology (of whatever sort), and so on, or was it largely political? Or do we even know that much? Are there comparable collapses? Is it analogous to or wholly different from, say, the collapse of the Maya (at least the urban part of the culture)?
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# ? Nov 13, 2012 09:22 |