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ZobarStyl
Oct 24, 2005

This isn't a war, it's a moider.

Sarion posted:

Honestly, I have no idea why they limited themselves to only 4 scandals. They define scandal as anything they don't like the sound of when Rush explains it. So there are probably dozens of scandals.
I'm sure for people who consume right wing media, every day is another Obama scandal. How they differentiate between 'major' scandals and workaday stuff like being an illegal Kenyan president is beyond me.

I did especially enjoy this:

quote:

7 - Valerie Plame!!!
Something about the idea of scandals actually leaking through time appeals to me. Of course, I'm also of the opinion that the right wing's timeline goes as follow:

Clinton Administration: January 20, 1993 to September 10, 2001
Bush Administration: September 11, 2001 :911:
Obama Adminstration: September 12, 2001 to Present
Exception: November 2, 2004 was part of the Bush Admin (silent majority/suck it libs!)

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Amused to Death
Aug 10, 2009

google "The Night Witches", and prepare for :stare:
I was actually pretty amused/shock when I first saw anti-colonial being used in a negative connotation on tumblr for that 2016 film. Though I have to say, for being anti colonial, Obama sure as hell loves to bomb villages with drones.

Mornacale
Dec 19, 2007

n=y where
y=hope and n=folly,
prospects=lies, win=lose,

self=Pirates

LAMB LESSONS posted:

I think that what "CHARITY IS TO BE GIVEN NOT TAKEN" boils down to for a lot of these people is that they want people in need to receive aid, but they want that aid to be from charities funded by churches and corporations so that they can point at a donation receipt and say "Look, I did this!" and also so that it can create heroes who are Christians and businessmen rather than politicians. Take Romney, rather than talk about one of the good things he did as a politician (Romneycare), they'd rather talk about what they perceive him to have done as a businessman (JOB CREATOR).

I think that the dialogue of a social democracy that takes care of its citizens is just too boring for them compared to a story about a rugged individual who bootstraps himself up and then helps out those who need his help (and who also attend the same church as he does).

Actually, I think this talking point is simply the way that the Randian mania for property rights has been sold to people who care about social justice (esp. Christians). In order to cement the allegiance between religion and politics in America, conservatives had to shift the emphasis in "voluntary giving" from "giving" to "voluntary"; there is a very serious idea that somehow aid to the poor via taxes or the like doesn't count, and is therefore immoral because it's forced.

Of course, it helps that this meme both feeds and threatens a superiority complex for American Christians*. First, it contributes to the narrative that Christians, particularly the most devout, are much more charitable than others: combined with misleading studies on the extent of charitable giving, it easily warps into the idea that liberals aren't willing to personally sacrifice to help others and just want to government to take responsibility. On the other hand, if paying taxes doesn't count as a real contribution to the community, then all that money represents a wasted chance to score points toward being righteous. Hence we see people saying we should slash Welfare and cut taxes and then they'd just donate that extra money to the poor themselves.

Finally, of course, it's worth noting that the vast majority of charitable donations from religious people are given to religious charities. Agitating for less taxation and more charitable giving is a profitable business practice for such organizations.

* To be clear, I am well aware not all American Christians give in to this.

Fuckt Tupp
Apr 19, 2007

Science

Amused to Death posted:

I was actually pretty amused/shock when I first saw anti-colonial being used in a negative connotation on tumblr for that 2016 film. Though I have to say, for being anti colonial, Obama sure as hell loves to bomb villages with drones.

The thought process was basically, "Alright, so maybe he wasn't born in Kenya, but he could consider himself a native Hawaiian and that's JUST AS BAD!! He hates British colonialism! So did the founders of the country, but nevermind that! He hates white people!"

Zwabu
Aug 7, 2006

Is there any place I can get a hold of "Dreams from My REAL Father" and "2016" DVDs without paying for them? It would make awesome coasters.

Ramadu
Aug 25, 2004

2015 NFL MVP


Zwabu posted:

Is there any place I can get a hold of "Dreams from My REAL Father" and "2016" DVDs without paying for them? It would make awesome coasters.

Dreams of my Real Father is on netflix, no idea about 2016 beyond suggesting :filez:

Mornacale
Dec 19, 2007

n=y where
y=hope and n=folly,
prospects=lies, win=lose,

self=Pirates

Internet Webguy posted:

The thought process was basically, "Alright, so maybe he wasn't born in Kenya, but he could consider himself a native Hawaiian and that's JUST AS BAD!! He hates British colonialism! So did the founders of the country, but nevermind that! He hates white people!"

Yeah, this is the important thing. Anti-colonial is a dog-whistle for anti-white. It is another way of expressing the fear that Obama will be hostile to white supremacy.

SEX HAVER 40000
Aug 6, 2009

no doves fly here lol
This isn't a forward, but I just received this from my grandfather, who made his money working for a now-defunct bank.

Dear children and grandchildren, et al

We have just finished a campaign for the president and so it goes. My feelings were summed up by a lifeguard at the Anacortes pool when she asked me in a plaintive voice; Why do we have such poor choices for president?

Say what you will the one guy said he had women’s organizations give him “binders†full of women qualified to serve in his administration like he didn’t know any himself. And he put an elevator in the garage at his beach house during the campaign which is the current day equivalent of “Let them eat cakeâ€. Oops.

The other guy has sort of acted during his first term like he did in the first debate. And he has not surrounded himself with people who know how to get things done. He needs some business people in his cabinet who know how the real world works.

About twenty years ago when the demographers first started talking about the fact that ‘in the mid-2000s the majority in this country will no longer be white but will be black and Hispanic I thought about what that meant. Neither ethnic group has much of a share of the top1% nor of the top 10% nor the top 25%. I felt then that how they would vote would depend on whether they felt the government was well run.

I don’t need to tell you that we have not done well in that department. I believe that the art of good government in a democracy is the art of good compromise. Some of you are libs and some fiscal conservatives. Neither is right and neither is wrong.

We have some things foisted on the public by misguided government in the past. (By both parties.) Any fool knows we can’t afford Social Security and Medicare as they are now. If you think about the present retirement plans, IRAs and the like, they don’t work well because most people are paying substantial fees for help in investing. The compounded cost of those fees will reduce returns making it imposible to retire. Also the person who saved for his retirement is now getting a negative return is less than inflation. But those problems are there, and there are many others. Deal with them, don’t ignore them.

So my advice is simply: recognize that preservation of any semblance of the country as we know it will require getting a government that the masses will perceive it to be working well and fairly. That means making the free market system work for the good of all. I am convinced that a thriving free market economy is essential. Socialism doesn’t work. So all of you libs figure out how we can rid ourselves of rules and programs that harm free market enterprise. You can’t take care of everybody all the time on everything.

Business cannot survive or employ more workers unless it has capital to buy ‘machines’ for workers to use. Capital comes from reinvested profits or borrowing against future profits. So there must be profits. The house Republicans should have hearings right now on much it costs business to comply with the increased enforcement efforts of the administration. And how other things affect profits like huge salaries for executives and perhaps invite Mr. Senegal of Costco to testify. But they should be interviewers not prosecutors in their questioning. Let the facts speak for themselves.

Republicans also should never mention abortion, gays, guns, embryos, rape, abstinence, creationism, 47%, Trump, or other peripheral distractions. How Republicans can complain about the deficit when they had two wars going and lowered taxes is idiotic. Maybe you could call it "Karl Rovian."

My devilishness prompts me to also suggest that the House hold a hearing on what changes in the law might have prevented the schizophrenic shooter in New Mexico from getting a gun and ask the head of the NRA to testify. It would not cost them a single seat as what NRA guy would ever vote for any Democrat?

As I am being devilish, why not ask a farmer from the Imperial Valley who raises carrots for the fresh market to testify on immigration. He probably can’t grow his crop without illegals.

But, all of you conservatives get in the mood to work on how much socialism you can stand and keep a free market system viable ‘cause you can’t have it all your way either.

To quote Tim Gunn: “Make it work.†Fixing the immediate dangers aint enough. Four years from now we need two good candidates .The GOP has to be vigorous and viable to get the balance in government that served us well for so many years.

If this doesn’t happen, the Democrats will screw up the economy for lack of viable opposition and then, sooner or later, some demagogue will win and will raise taxes, redistribute the wealth and be a hero until the money runs out and then you will have wreckage like Argentina. And, at best, you will all live in shabby gentility.

Good luck. You have maybe 12 years to get it done right. But you better start now. Remember everyone is cheated if there are not two good candidates for president. And, remember good government is the art of good compromise.

‘Ever thought of going to your Republican precinct caucus? They need all the help they can get and that’s where change starts you know. Take your friends and neighbors and any acquaintances you can get to go, and concerned passersby for that matter. Just get some reality injected into that party

Love and good luck,

yer Pop

Sorry for the wall of text. He straight up called homosexuality, rape, and abortion minor distractions. What the gently caress.

Blarghalt
May 19, 2010

That's considerably less crazy than some of the stuff posted in here, since he has enough sense to realize that social issues aren't a winning game for the Republicans.

At least he used paragraph breaks.

sicarius
Dec 12, 2002

In brightest day,
In blackest night,
My smugface makes,
women wet....

That's how it goes, right?

Mornacale posted:

Yeah, this is the important thing. Anti-colonial is a dog-whistle for anti-white. It is another way of expressing the fear that Obama will be hostile to white supremacy.

I believe, at least this is the impression I get from it, that D'Souza's push here is that Obama is actively working to make amends for colonial history. Not so much that he is opposed to modern colonialism, but he thinks every nation which lags behind the "great powers" does so because it was a colony. D'Souza's theory then, from my understanding, is that modern powers which were colonial owe debts to their previous colonies and that paying them is going to bankrupt the previously colonial power.

It took me a while to understand what he actually meant because, well, I don't understand how anyone in the modern world could really be pro-colonial - making assertions that we should have exploited colonies (though an argument could be made that we don't have political colonies, but economic ones now). It's a very tenuous position because he's trying to deduce intention behind what is - for lack of a better term - altruistic action. We (being The United States) aid other nations because we think it's our job. We have the ability to do so, and so we do. D'Souza wants to claim we make enormous sacrifices to do this and we do it because Obama want to destroy America because it is or was some colonial power. Ignore the fact that the "American Empire" is one of economic strength and not political power, but America's time as a political empire was miniscule and Obama shows no such disdain for legitimate colonial powers like say... Spain, Portugal or the Netherlands. In fact, these nations are frequently the target of right wing disdain for their socialistic leanings.

It, like almost everything else D'Souza spews, is utter nonsense. The entire film is pure speculation. He attempts to weasel intent out from Presidential action - something that's very hard to do because few people understand what it's like to be in that position. Not to mention that, well, the President is often assisted in decision-making by any number of people - all of whom have their own bias and intent. He's trying to assign group decision to a single personage, and then further deglomerate that group decision into a single ideology. It's complete nonsense.


He's not all right, obviously, but he's not completely wrong either. The main push of his monologue is that compromise is necessary for governance. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. He may disagree about where the compromise is, but at least it seems like he's a guy willing to discuss reality and not ideology.

I think there's a distinction - and not knowing the man I can't judge if he did this on purpose - between what you term "minor distractions" and he terms "peripheral distractions." Social issue, in general, are peripheral to government function. While I, personally, believe that economic equality will come from social equality it's a road that obviously flows both ways. If policies are made such that people become economically equal, social equality will come in time. Not to mention, I think his primary push here is that social issues are losing issues for Republicans - now and in the future. The shift has started and it's not reversible. Gay marriage and reproductive rights aren't something that the People (big P) are going to compromise on. The overwhelming majority of citizens are either in favor of those things or are fiscal Republicans who simply don't care and want to move on to dollars and cents. Social conservatism is a dying niche - for the better of everyone - and your grandpa has the sense to realize it.

Like the above poster said - at the very least he uses grammar and punctuation. He arranges his thoughts in a cohesive manner. He seems like someone you can dialog with... which is a huge step up from others.

sicarius fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Nov 12, 2012

Sarion
Dec 24, 2003

As others have already said, it was actually a lot more reasonable than most of the stuff here. I think his only point about gays/abortion/etc is that the social conservative stances on those issues has played out and failed, and to stop shooting themselves in the foot by bringing it up. Not that those issues are irrelevant. But I may have misunderstood. This however was the best part:

SEX HAVER 40000 posted:

Neither ethnic group has much of a share of the top1% nor of the top 10% nor the top 25%.

It's like he's so close, but then he shifts gears into "get rid of assistance programs and taxes so the free market can thrive"! But at least he acknowledges that those programs aren't ever going to vanish entirely. Even if it's a grudging, they're going to keep voting for them even if they're bad, sort of acceptance.

If you want to really discuss this with him, I think the best bet is to focus on why those programs are actually critical to a thriving market, and not opposed to it:

- UHC/Strong Safety Net encourage risk taking on innovative new businesses.
- Access to food plays a vital role in educating children so that they can become useful employees later (teaching kids who are constantly hungry is pretty much futile).
- TANF provides money for childcare so that single parents can actually work.
- All that money, whether Food Stamps, Medicaid, TANF, Unemployment Insurance, etc; it doesn't just get thrown into a giant fire. It's all spent by people at the bottom on necessities. It injects money into grocery stores, convenience stores, doctor's offices, etc.

And so on.

XyloJW
Jul 23, 2007

SEX HAVER 40000 posted:

This isn't a forward, but I just received this from my grandfather, who made his money working for a now-defunct bank.

He sounds oddly like an old man I know here in the backwoods of Mississippi. Very reasonable old dude with some super backwards beliefs. He says he believes Obama's a socialist, but not a very good one, given his failure to enact any socialist policies; he says even though he's a conservative, all the conspiracy theories from the Right are insane and they need to shut up, accept that their guy lost fair and square, and the people have chosen their president, and they need to start treating the office of the president with the respect they would if it were a white man holding it.

He also fully acknowledges that he's a dyed-in-the-wool racist and that that's a bad thing, but that he's too old to rewire the way he thinks. He hates niggers, but he keeps it to himself because "that has no place in the world anymore." He specifically let all his children and grandchildren have all the black friends they wanted and never let his feelings known to them, because "I don't want my kids growing up in a world, hating half of it like I do."

Zwabu
Aug 7, 2006

XyloJW posted:

He sounds oddly like an old man I know here in the backwoods of Mississippi. Very reasonable old dude with some super backwards beliefs. He says he believes Obama's a socialist, but not a very good one, given his failure to enact any socialist policies; he says even though he's a conservative, all the conspiracy theories from the Right are insane and they need to shut up, accept that their guy lost fair and square, and the people have chosen their president, and they need to start treating the office of the president with the respect they would if it were a white man holding it.

He also fully acknowledges that he's a dyed-in-the-wool racist and that that's a bad thing, but that he's too old to rewire the way he thinks. He hates niggers, but he keeps it to himself because "that has no place in the world anymore." He specifically let all his children and grandchildren have all the black friends they wanted and never let his feelings known to them, because "I don't want my kids growing up in a world, hating half of it like I do."

It's pretty rare for people, liberal or conservative, to have that little shred of objectivity with which they can even evaluate their own prejudices and attitudes like this guy, I like it, especially the part to which he keeps a lid on them so as not to taint his family with them, that's cool.

Mr. Belding
May 19, 2006
^
|
<- IS LAME-O PHOBE ->
|
V

XyloJW posted:

He sounds oddly like an old man I know here in the backwoods of Mississippi. Very reasonable old dude with some super backwards beliefs. He says he believes Obama's a socialist, but not a very good one, given his failure to enact any socialist policies; he says even though he's a conservative, all the conspiracy theories from the Right are insane and they need to shut up, accept that their guy lost fair and square, and the people have chosen their president, and they need to start treating the office of the president with the respect they would if it were a white man holding it.

He also fully acknowledges that he's a dyed-in-the-wool racist and that that's a bad thing, but that he's too old to rewire the way he thinks. He hates niggers, but he keeps it to himself because "that has no place in the world anymore." He specifically let all his children and grandchildren have all the black friends they wanted and never let his feelings known to them, because "I don't want my kids growing up in a world, hating half of it like I do."

It's really amazing to hear of someone being so lucidly self-critical.

pillsburysoldier
Feb 11, 2008

Yo, peep that shit

So this is being shared around by some Paul-fans


quote:

While I like a lot of what Ron Paul says, stuff like this is a perfect example of why he was never electable. Whether you believe it or not, you don't say stuff like this while people are still recovering from a 100 year storm.



In Praise of Price Gouging

As the northeastern United States continues to recover from Hurricane Sandy, we hear the usual outcry against individuals and companies who dare to charge market prices for goods such as gasoline. The normal market response of rising prices in the wake of a natural disaster and resulting supply disruptions is redefined as “price gouging.” The government claims that price gouging is the charging of ruinous or exploitative prices for goods in short supply in the wake of a disaster and is a heinous crime But does this reflect economic reality, or merely political posturing to capitalize on raw emotions?
In the wake of Hurricane Sandy, the supply of gasoline was greatly disrupted. Many gas stations were unable to pump gas due to a lack of electricity, thus greatly reducing the supply. At the same time demand for gasoline spiked due to the widespread use of generators. Because gas stations were forbidden from raising their prices to meet the increased demand, miles-long lines developed and stations were forced to start limiting the amount of gasoline that individuals could purchase. New Jersey gas stations began to look like Soviet grocery stores.
Had gas stations been allowed to raise their prices to reflect the increased demand for gasoline, only those most in need of gasoline would have purchased gas, while everyone would have economized on their existing supply. But because prices remained lower than they should have been, no one sought to conserve gas. Low prices signaled that gas was in abundant supply, while reality was exactly the opposite, and only those fortunate enough to be at the front of gas lines were able to purchase gas before it sold out. Not surprisingly, a thriving black market developed, with gas offered for up to $20 per gallon.
With price controls in effect, supply shortages were exacerbated. If prices had been allowed to increase to market levels, the profit opportunity would have brought in new supplies from outside the region. As supplies increased, prices gradually would have decreased as supply and demand returned to equilibrium. But with price controls in effect, what company would want to deal with the hassle of shipping gas to a disaster-stricken area with downed power lines and flooded highways when the same profit could be made elsewhere? So instead of gas shipments flooding into the disaster zones, what little gas supply is left is rapidly sold and consumed.
Governments fail to understand that prices are not just random numbers. Prices perform an important role in providing information, coordinating supply and demand, and enabling economic calculation. When government interferes with the price mechanism, economic calamity ensues. Price controls on gasoline led to the infamous gas lines of the 1970s, yet politicians today repeat those same failed mistakes. Instituting price caps at a below-market price will always lead to shortages. No act of any legislature can reverse the laws of supply and demand.
History shows us that the quickest path to economic recovery is to abolish all price controls. If governments really want to aid recovery, they would abolish their “price-gouging” legislation and allow the free market to function.


I'm really at a loss

pillsburysoldier fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Nov 13, 2012

Blarghalt
May 19, 2010

I had a very similar article in one of my economics textbooks back in college, and just as ethically repugnant.

It's kind of sad how in the last fifty years liberty has mutated in definition to basically be a synonym for unrestrained greed.

Blarghalt fucked around with this message at 05:54 on Nov 13, 2012

seiferguy
Jun 9, 2005

FLAWED
INTUITION



Toilet Rascal
Someone posted this on my facebook wall (with a "sigh... people these days"):



Yeah, that'll sure show them :freep:

sicarius
Dec 12, 2002

In brightest day,
In blackest night,
My smugface makes,
women wet....

That's how it goes, right?

seiferguy posted:

Someone posted this on my facebook wall (with a "sigh... people these days"):



Yeah, that'll sure show them :freep:

A place where I shoot posted a similar sign. I walked in and told them that they'd lost my business and I hadn't even voted for Obama. Told a couple of my friends this and now they've taken the sign down. I doubt it hurt their business all that much but a good number of the people I shoot with are either ex-military, politically uninformed, or pragmatists. Almost to a person the 20-ish people I talked to thought this was stupid since, well, they now own more guns than before Obama took office.

Essentially, educated gun owners know that Obama has done nothing to harm their ability to shoot at poo poo.

EDIT - Worth noting that these asshats (the ones in AZ, not the place I shoot) have run a podcast advocating secession from the United States. Does anyone else wish they'd let some of these states secede and then learn the harsh lesson that, in fact, Arizona wouldn't exist as a nation unto itself in any real world.

sicarius fucked around with this message at 07:17 on Nov 13, 2012

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

seiferguy posted:

Someone posted this on my facebook wall (with a "sigh... people these days"):



Yeah, that'll sure show them :freep:

I wonder why Firearm is capitalized.

big boi
Jun 11, 2007

If you don't know, it won't do any good telling you. Commie :911:

PoizenJam
Dec 2, 2006

Damn!!!
It's PoizenJam!!!

Orange Devil posted:

I wonder why Firearm is capitalized.

You know how people capitalize God? I imagine it's something like that.

Sarion
Dec 24, 2003

sicarius posted:

Does anyone else wish they'd let some of these states secede and then learn the harsh lesson that, in fact, Arizona wouldn't exist as a nation unto itself in any real world.

I certainly understand the sentiment; but then I remember that it would involve thousands of people suffering, many of whom didn't even want it.

Mo_Steel
Mar 7, 2008

Let's Clock Into The Sunset Together

Fun Shoe

pillsburysoldier posted:

So this is being shared around by some Paul-fans

I'm really at a loss

There's a reason for laws against price gouging, and that reason is because in sudden unpredictable changes during a crisis the market is not capable of reliably responding regardless of price flexibility, so allowing large price increases only amounts to loving over the consumers as a result of a disaster.

quote:

As the northeastern United States continues to recover from Hurricane Sandy, we hear the usual outcry against individuals and companies who dare to charge market prices for goods such as gasoline. The normal market response of rising prices in the wake of a natural disaster and resulting supply disruptions is redefined as “price gouging.” The government claims that price gouging is the charging of ruinous or exploitative prices for goods in short supply in the wake of a disaster and is a heinous crime But does this reflect economic reality, or merely political posturing to capitalize on raw emotions?

In the wake of Hurricane Sandy, the supply of gasoline was greatly disrupted. Many gas stations were unable to pump gas due to a lack of electricity, thus greatly reducing the supply. At the same time demand for gasoline spiked due to the widespread use of generators. Because gas stations were forbidden from raising their prices to meet the increased demand, miles-long lines developed and stations were forced to start limiting the amount of gasoline that individuals could purchase. New Jersey gas stations began to look like Soviet grocery stores.

[quote]Had gas stations been allowed to raise their prices to reflect the increased demand for gasoline, only those most in need of gasoline would have purchased gas, while everyone would have economized on their existing supply. But because prices remained lower than they should have been, no one sought to conserve gas. Low prices signaled that gas was in abundant supply, while reality was exactly the opposite, and only those fortunate enough to be at the front of gas lines were able to purchase gas before it sold out. Not surprisingly, a thriving black market developed, with gas offered for up to $20 per gallon.

I want to address the first bolded portion here. This is an incorrect statement. The correct statement is "only those able to afford the price of gasoline would be able to purchase gasoline". This article is arguing that ability to pay is perfectly mirrored in need for a good or service, which isn't true. It's pretty obviously untrue, unless you're trying to make a defense of profiteering off of a disaster situation.

Moving on to the second bolded portion: so what? If you're aiming for a fair distribution of needed goods among a populace during a disaster, quotas and first come first serve is about as fair as you're going to manage, and certainly fairer than divvying up the necessary supplies based on personally stored wealth.

The author is arguing for business profits and exploiting consumers, and arguing that's better because of a flimsy premise of economic efficiency during a one-time jump in supply and demand inelasticity.

quote:

With price controls in effect, supply shortages were exacerbated. If prices had been allowed to increase to market levels, the profit opportunity would have brought in new supplies from outside the region. As supplies increased, prices gradually would have decreased as supply and demand returned to equilibrium. But with price controls in effect, what company would want to deal with the hassle of shipping gas to a disaster-stricken area with downed power lines and flooded highways when the same profit could be made elsewhere? So instead of gas shipments flooding into the disaster zones, what little gas supply is left is rapidly sold and consumed.

:ironicat:

More supply would suddenly flood in? Not really, no. First of all emergency reserves are already flooding the region, disrupting our poor free market with much needed fuel. Additionally, because of the destruction and closure of a variety of shipping lanes and roadways, there's a limit to how much actual quantity can be transported into the region efficiently.

But the thing that makes it ironic is that the author forgot his premise while arguing in favor of said premise. If gas stations are allowed to gouge their customers, why wouldn't suppliers gouge the gas stations as well? They won't bring in extraordinary supplies by magic, they'll just jack up their prices too because it's smart business to rake in massive profits when you can exploit a captive market.

quote:

Governments fail to understand that prices are not just random numbers. Prices perform an important role in providing information, coordinating supply and demand, and enabling economic calculation. When government interferes with the price mechanism, economic calamity ensues. Price controls on gasoline led to the infamous gas lines of the 1970s, yet politicians today repeat those same failed mistakes. Instituting price caps at a below-market price will always lead to shortages. No act of any legislature can reverse the laws of supply and demand.

Here's a law of supply and demand for the author: when both supply and demand are inelastic due to a literal disaster, price increases don't result in increased supply availability or decreased demand. The author can pretend the market is some flawless distributor of needed goods to everyone, but these price gouging laws didn't emerge in a vacuum; they formed because letting companies exploit a disaster for huge profits does little to alleviate the suffering of the vast majority of disaster victims, and serves little purpose but to line the pockets of businesses already guaranteed to make huge quantity of sales.

quote:

History shows us that the quickest path to economic recovery is to abolish all price controls. If governments really want to aid recovery, they would abolish their “price-gouging” legislation and allow the free market to function.

Citation needed, and not from some free mason website.

Mo_Steel fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Nov 13, 2012

jmzero
Jul 24, 2007

quote:

But because prices remained lower than they should have been, no one sought to conserve gas.

I like how people line up all day to get gas, and can sell it for $20 a gallon apparently... but then just waste it - as though the dollar price they paid is their only consideration in how they value it.

Urban Space Cowboy
Feb 15, 2009

All these Coyote avatars...they make me nervous...like somebody's pulling a prank on the entire forum! :tinfoil:

myron cope posted:

If we could reform just one thing about American politics, what would have the biggest impact?
Bring back the Fairness Doctrine and give it teeth. Like the vast majority of garbage in this thread is due to people being brainwashed by 24x7 Fox News and talk radio.

Bombadilillo
Feb 28, 2009

The dock really fucks a case or nerfing it.

So wait. This price gouge thing mean basicly. Prices should shoot up so fewer people can afford it therefore making lines smaller. The problem that we want to solve is not 'long lines' what the hell people. We want to solve 'get people gas'. Libertarians look at the world backwards. It's ok if most people cannot run generators as long as there's not long lines the free market fixed everything.

XyloJW
Jul 23, 2007
From skimming it, I thought he was saying price gouging means other price gougers will hear about the opportunity, and move in, and compete themselves back down to normal levels, but fixing the supply problem.

It's ludicrous, but I think that's the argument being made.

myron cope
Apr 21, 2009

I think they're even ok with long lines. They just want to be able to jack up rates to exorbitant amounts. They just assume that high prices means a shorter line. Which isn't guaranteed.

Bombadilillo
Feb 28, 2009

The dock really fucks a case or nerfing it.

XyloJW posted:

From skimming it, I thought he was saying price gouging means other price gougers will hear about the opportunity, and move in, and compete themselves back down to normal levels, but fixing the supply problem.

It's ludicrous, but I think that's the argument being made.

I see. Did they miss the part where the infrastructure was destroyed so you CAN'T have the normal level of competition? A temporary price freeze so people don't get hosed is the only moral thing to do. You can't magic in twice the supply. But them I'm arguing against libertarians here. So magic.

InternetJunky
May 25, 2002

pillsburysoldier posted:

So this is being shared around by some Paul-fans

"Had gas stations been allowed to raise their prices to reflect the increased demand for gasoline, only those most in need of gasoline the rich would have purchased gas, while everyone would have economized on their existing supply else suffers."

Oddhair
Mar 21, 2004

My dad previously sent a message saying the ACA had the word "Dhimmitude" in it, and retracted it (to all the CCs) before I sent him the Snopes link. Today I get this, it's all abloo bloo about 'takers' and so on, with the added menace of, potentially, Jews not being welcome in the US (emphasis mine):

Rabbi Pruzansky posted:

Rabbi Pruzansky's Blog

THE DECLINE AND FALL OF THE AMERICAN EMPIRE
November 7, 2012

The most charitable way of explaining the election results of 2012 is that Americans voted for the status quo – for the incumbent President and for a divided Congress. They must enjoy gridlock, partisanship, incompetence, economic stagnation and avoidance of responsibility. And fewer people voted. As I write, with almost all the votes counted, President Obama has won fewer votes than John McCain won in 2008, and more than ten million off his own 2008 total.
But as we awake from the nightmare, it is important to eschew the facile explanations for the Romney defeat that will prevail among the chattering classes. Romney did not lose because of the effects of Hurricane Sandy that devastated this area, nor did he lose because he ran a poor campaign, nor did he lose because the Republicans could have chosen better candidates, nor did he lose because Obama benefited from a slight uptick in the economy due to the business cycle.
Romney lost because he didn’t get enough votes to win.
That might seem obvious, but not for the obvious reasons. Romney lost because the conservative virtues – the traditional American virtues – of liberty, hard work, free enterprise, private initiative and aspirations to moral greatness – no longer inspire or animate a majority of the electorate. The notion of the “Reagan Democrat” is one cliché that should be permanently retired.
Ronald Reagan himself could not win an election in today’s America.
The simplest reason why Romney lost was because it is impossible to compete against free stuff. Every businessman knows this; that is why the “loss leader” or the giveaway is such a powerful marketing tool. Obama’s America is one in which free stuff is given away: the adults among the 47,000,000 on food stamps clearly recognized for whom they should vote, and so they did, by the tens of millions; those who – courtesy of Obama – receive two full years of unemployment benefits (which, of course, both disincentivizes looking for work and also motivates people to work off the books while collecting their windfall) surely know for whom to vote; so too those who anticipate “free” health care, who expect the government to pay their mortgages, who look for the government to give them jobs. The lure of free stuff is irresistible.
Imagine two restaurants side by side. One sells its customers fine cuisine at a reasonable price, and the other offers a free buffet, all-you-can-eat as long as supplies last. Few – including me – could resist the attraction of the free food. Now imagine that the second restaurant stays in business because the first restaurant is forced to provide it with the food for the free buffet, and we have the current economy, until, at least, the first restaurant decides to go out of business. (Then, the government takes over the provision of free food to its patrons.)
The defining moment of the whole campaign was the revelation (by the amoral Obama team) of the secretly-recorded video in which Romney acknowledged the difficulty of winning an election in which “47% of the people” start off against him because they pay no taxes and just receive money – “free stuff” – from the government. Almost half of the population has no skin in the game – they don’t care about high taxes, promoting business, or creating jobs, nor do they care that the money for their free stuff is being borrowed from their children and from the Chinese. They just want the free stuff that comes their way at someone else’s expense. In the end, that 47% leaves very little margin for error for any Republican, and does not bode well for the future.
It is impossible to imagine a conservative candidate winning against such overwhelming odds. People do vote their pocketbooks. In essence, the people vote for a Congress who will not raise their taxes, and for a President who will give them free stuff, never mind who has to pay for it.
That engenders the second reason why Romney lost: the inescapable conclusion that the electorate is dumb – ignorant, and uninformed. Indeed, it does not pay to be an informed voter, because most other voters – the clear majority – are unintelligent and easily swayed by emotion and raw populism. That is the indelicate way of saying that too many people vote with their hearts and not their heads. That is why Obama did not have to produce a second term agenda, or even defend his first-term record. He needed only to portray Mitt Romney as a rapacious capitalist who throws elderly women over a cliff, when he is not just snatching away their cancer medication, while starving the poor and cutting taxes for the rich. Obama could get away with saying that “Romney wants the rich to play by a different set of rules” – without ever defining what those different rules were; with saying that the “rich should pay their fair share” – without ever defining what a “fair share” is; with saying that Romney wants the poor, elderly and sick to “fend for themselves” – without even acknowledging that all these government programs are going bankrupt, their current insolvency only papered over by deficit spending. Obama could get away with it because he knew he was talking to dunces waving signs and squealing at any sight of him.
During his 1956 presidential campaign, a woman called out to Adlai Stevenson: “Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!” Stevenson called back: “That’s not enough, madam, we need a majority!” Truer words were never spoken.
Similarly, Obama (or his surrogates) could hint to blacks that a Romney victory would lead them back into chains and proclaim to women that their abortions and birth control would be taken away. He could appeal to Hispanics that Romney would have them all arrested and shipped to Mexico (even if they came from Cuba or Honduras), and unabashedly state that he will not enforce the current immigration laws. He could espouse the furtherance of the incestuous relationship between governments and unions – in which politicians ply the unions with public money, in exchange for which the unions provide the politicians with votes, in exchange for which the politicians provide more money and the unions provide more votes, etc., even though the money is gone. He could do and say all these things because he knew his voters were dolts.
One might reasonably object that not every Obama supporter could be unintelligent. But they must then rationally explain how the Obama agenda can be paid for, aside from racking up multi-trillion dollar deficits. “Taxing the rich” does not yield even 10% of what is required – so what is the answer, i.e., an intelligent answer?
Obama also knows that the electorate has changed – that whites will soon be a minority in America (they’re already a minority in California) and that the new immigrants to the US are primarily from the Third World and do not share the traditional American values that attracted immigrants in the 19th and 20th centuries. It is a different world, and a different America. Obama is part of that different America, knows it, and knows how to tap into it. That is why he won.
Obama also proved again that negative advertising works, invective sells, and harsh personal attacks succeed. That Romney never engaged in such diatribes points to his essential goodness as a person; his “negative ads” were simple facts, never personal abuse – facts about high unemployment, lower take-home pay, a loss of American power and prestige abroad, a lack of leadership, etc. As a politician, though, Romney failed because he did not embrace the devil’s bargain of making unsustainable promises, and by talking as the adult and not the adolescent. Obama has spent the last six years campaigning; even his governance has been focused on payoffs to his favored interest groups. The permanent campaign also won again, to the detriment of American life.
It turned out that it was not possible for Romney and Ryan – people of substance, depth and ideas – to compete with the shallow populism and platitudes of their opponents. Obama mastered the politics of envy – of class warfare – never reaching out to Americans as such but to individual groups, and cobbling together a winning majority from these minority groups. Conservative ideas failed to take root and states that seemed winnable, and amenable to traditional American values, have simply disappeared from the map. If an Obama could not be defeated – with his record and his vision of America, in which free stuff seduces voters – it is hard to envision any change in the future. The road to Hillary Clinton in 2016 and to a European-socialist economy – those very economies that are collapsing today in Europe – is paved.
A second cliché that should be retired is that America is a center-right country. It clearly is not. It is a divided country with peculiar voting patterns and an appetite for free stuff. Studies will invariably show that Republicans in Congress received more total votes than Democrats in Congress, but that means little. The House of Representatives is not truly representative of the country. That people would vote for a Republican Congressmen or Senator and then Obama for President would tend to reinforce point two above: the empty-headedness of the electorate. Americans revile Congress but love their individual Congressmen. Go figure.
The mass media’s complicity in Obama’s re-election cannot be denied. One example suffices. In 2004, CBS News forged a letter in order to imply that President Bush did not fulfill his Air National Guard service during the Vietnam War, all to impugn Bush and impair his re-election prospects. In 2012, President Obama insisted – famously – during the second debate that he had stated all along that the Arab attack on the US Consulate in Benghazi was “terror” (a lie that Romney fumbled and failed to exploit). Yet, CBS News sat on a tape of an interview with Obama in which Obama specifically avoided and rejected the claim of terrorism – on the day after the attack – clinging to the canard about the video. (This snippet of a “60 Minutes” interview was not revealed - until two days ago!) In effect, CBS News fabricated evidence in order to harm a Republican president, and suppressed evidence in order to help a Democratic president. Simply shameful, as was the media’s disregard of any scandal or story that could have jeopardized the Obama re-election.
One of the more irritating aspects of this campaign was its limited focus, odd in light of the billions of dollars spent. Only a few states were contested, a strategy that Romney adopted, and that clearly failed. The Democrat begins any race with a substantial advantage. The liberal states – like the bankrupt California and Illinois – and other states with large concentrations of minority voters as well as an extensive welfare apparatus, like New York, New Jersey and others – give any Democratic candidate an almost insurmountable edge in electoral votes. In New Jersey, for example, it literally does not pay for a conservative to vote. It is not worth the fuel expended driving to the polls. As some economists have pointed generally, and it resonates here even more, the odds are greater that a voter will be killed in a traffic accident on his way to the polls than that his vote will make a difference in the election. It is an irrational act. That most states are uncompetitive means that people are not amenable to new ideas, or new thinking, or even having an open mind. If that does not change, and it is hard to see how it can change, then the die is cast. America is not what it was, and will never be again.
For Jews, mostly assimilated anyway and staunch Democrats, the results demonstrate again that liberalism is their Torah. Almost 70% voted for a president widely perceived by Israelis and most committed Jews as hostile to Israel. They voted to secure Obama’s future at America’s expense and at Israel’s expense – in effect, preferring Obama to Netanyahu by a wide margin. A dangerous time is ahead. Under present circumstances, it is inconceivable that the US will take any aggressive action against Iran and will more likely thwart any Israeli initiative. That Obama’s top aide Valerie Jarrett (i.e., Iranian-born Valerie Jarrett) spent last week in Teheran is not a good sign. The US will preach the importance of negotiations up until the production of the first Iranian nuclear weapon – and then state that the world must learn to live with this new reality. As Obama has committed himself to abolishing America’s nuclear arsenal, it is more likely that that unfortunate circumstance will occur than that he will succeed in obstructing Iran’s plans.
Obama’s victory could weaken Netanyahu’s re-election prospects, because Israelis live with an unreasonable – and somewhat pathetic – fear of American opinion and realize that Obama despises Netanyahu. A Likud defeat – or a diminution of its margin of victory – is more probable now than yesterday. That would not be the worst thing. Netanyahu, in fact, has never distinguished himself by having a strong political or moral backbone, and would be the first to cave to the American pressure to surrender more territory to the enemy and acquiesce to a second (or third, if you count Jordan) Palestinian state. A new US Secretary of State named John Kerry, for example (he of the Jewish father) would not augur well. Netanyahu remains the best of markedly poor alternatives. Thus, the likeliest outcome of the upcoming Israeli elections is a center-left government that will force itself to make more concessions and weaken Israel – an Oslo III.
But this election should be a wake-up call to Jews. There is no permanent empire, nor is there is an enduring haven for Jews anywhere in the exile. The most powerful empires in history all crumbled – from the Greeks and the Romans to the British and the Soviets. None of the collapses were easily foreseen, and yet they were predictable in retrospect.
The American empire began to decline in 2007, and the deterioration has been exacerbated in the last five years. This election only hastens that decline. Society is permeated with sloth, greed, envy and materialistic excess. It has lost its moorings and its moral foundations. The takers outnumber the givers, and that will only increase in years to come. Across the world, America under Bush was feared but not respected. Under Obama, America is neither feared nor respected. Radical Islam has had a banner four years under Obama, and its prospects for future growth look excellent. The “Occupy” riots across this country in the last two years were mere dress rehearsals for what lies ahead – years of unrest sparked by the increasing discontent of the unsuccessful who want to seize the fruits and the bounty of the successful, and do not appreciate the slow pace of redistribution.
Two bright sides: Notwithstanding the election results, I arose the morning, went to shul, davened and learned Torah afterwards. That is our reality, and that trumps all other events. Our relationship with G-d matters more than our relationship with any politician, R or D. And, notwithstanding the problems in Israel, it is time for Jews to go home, to Israel. We have about a decade, perhaps 15 years, to leave with dignity and without stress. Thinking that it will always be because it always was has been a repetitive and deadly Jewish mistake. America was always the land from which “positive” aliya came – Jews leaving on their own, and not fleeing a dire situation. But that can also change. The increased aliya in the last few years is partly attributable to young people the high cost of Jewish living in America. Those costs will only increase in the coming years. We should draw the appropriate conclusions.
If this election proves one thing, it is that the Old America is gone. And, sad for the world, it is not coming back

I'm already responding with David Frum's excellent piece but I'm still reading it to better respond.

Fake edit: Oh holy poo poo this steams me. I stopped bolding the crap about halfway through. Apparently: the electorate are stupid; Obama "despises Netanyahu"; radical Islam has had a banner four years. It's just opinion and logical fallacies, all the way down.

VVVV I don't really know, he does alright in sales, and my step-mom is partially disabled. I'm sure they get some benefits, likely though he doesn't get his entire witholding back. He sent me that straw man forward about Obama not going to the D-Day Memorial, and I replied that the only reason anyone would send that to him is to make him afraid. I don't expect him to change his mind, not really, but he's a very intelligent person who then, like most people, buys into arguments that reinforce his worldwiew/his team's worldview.

Oddhair fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Nov 13, 2012

Amused to Death
Aug 10, 2009

google "The Night Witches", and prepare for :stare:
While I'm not sure about despise, to be fair, Obama and Netanyahu by all appearances don't particularly like each other, it doesn't mean Israel and America still aren't best friends for life though. Though apparently even Sarkozy didn't like Netanyahu, and that's coming from the position of a lot of people didn't really like Sarkozy. Netanyahu is just an abrasive man.

Also is your dad part of the 47%? Because I mean statistically there's a 50/50 chance of it, especially since that number I believe is households that has anyone receiving any kind of government benefit.

e: Doesn't matter if he is right now or isn't. Just about everyone will be part of the 47% at one point in their life, especially if they make it to retirement.

Zwabu
Aug 7, 2006

I'm pretty sure the 47 percent number is people who don't pay federal income tax.

clockworx
Oct 15, 2005
The Internet Whore made me buy this account
Not a crazy forwarded email, but I can't believe actual "news" websites have stooped low enough to post such unimportant poo poo like this with such a misleading headline:

Secession petitions filed in 20 states

Yes, loony individual citizens with no political authority in a total of 20 states have petitioned the white house for secession in an online petition.

To the presses!

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

This comes up at the tail end of a long discussion under a friend's post. She expressed her exasperation at being stigmatized for having to use food stamps. :bang:

Goatman Sacks
Apr 4, 2011

by FactsAreUseless

Absurd Alhazred posted:


This comes up at the tail end of a long discussion under a friend's post. She expressed her exasperation at being stigmatized for having to use food stamps. :bang:

Engineer spotted

TerminalSaint
Apr 21, 2007


Where must we go...

we who wander this Wasteland in search of our better selves?
Bee boop! I am a robot! Empathy is the enemy of logic!
:spergin:

Amused to Death
Aug 10, 2009

google "The Night Witches", and prepare for :stare:

Goatman Sacks posted:

Engineer spotted

Perfect response.

I keep seeing cries of voter fraud among the internet, aka the only way a Democrat could ever win an election. Which makes me think though, all of these states, Florida, Virginia, Iowa, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, they all have Republican governors, Republican secretaries of state, and Republican controlled legislatures.(Minus Iowa). If we even take it on face value and say they're correct, it's just further proving the point Republicans are incapable of running a state since they can't even conduct a legitimate election.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

Oddhair posted:

Obama "despises Netanyahu";
So do I. So do most Israelis I know. He also bluntly supported Romney in the elections, probably because he's pretty much funded by Sheldon Adelson, so if Obama doesn't despise him by now, I don't know what could possibly help.

Goatman Sacks posted:

Engineer spotted

Hey, I personally know a lot of engineers who are nowhere near this sociopathic.

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AlliedBiscuit
Oct 23, 2012

Do you want to know the terrifying truth, or do you want to see me sock a few dingers?!!

Absurd Alhazred posted:


This comes up at the tail end of a long discussion under a friend's post. She expressed her exasperation at being stigmatized for having to use food stamps. :bang:

:stare:

People really don't think about the consequences of ideas like that, do they? Good lord.

It reminds me of a popular question I've seen on OKC: "Would the world be a better place if stupid people weren't allowed to breed". The number of people who say "yes" without thinking about what a world of forced sterilization would be like...

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