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Frinkahedron
Jul 26, 2006

Gobble Gobble

Lord Gaga posted:


I think pretty much every mechanical engineer would be WAY better off both job prospect and engineer quality wise spending $2000 total on machinist school than $3000/semester on an MS or PhD

The vast majority of engineering grad students get paid as GTAs or GRAs to get their degree. There's tons of research money out there to fund it.

Just for my two cents, I'm 75% through a masters in mechanical engineering, but I'm specializing in unmanned systems and mechatronics, which is something I couldn't really do in undergrad. That was probably the biggest reason I stayed for a masters right out of school, since I was still in required heat transfer/fluids classes my fall semester senior year. Many of the grad students in my lab are stopping at a masters.

So the 'expected' path really varies depending on what you want to specialize or get a job in later.

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resident
Dec 22, 2005

WE WERE ALL UP IN THAT SHIT LIKE A MUTHAFUCKA. IT'S CLEANER THAN A BROKE DICK DOG.

movax posted:

What's the "expected" path though? BS -> work for 2-3 years -> get MS/PhD -> return to work as subject matter god? I imagine a person that does that has better career prospects (and to be quite honest will probably be a better engineer and employee) than someone who goes BS -> MS/PhD with little to no work experience.

The latter's probably fine if all you want to do is play around in a lab, but even then, having real, tangible work experience is a net plus. Even if it's just socializing you as you would a puppy or something. Lot of uh, personalities in academia.

I did the latter but only because I was in a position to finish my MS in 8 months on top of my BS, otherwise I wouldn't really recommend it for your average job. I got lucky that the economy was poo poo at the time so my pay bump on day 1 with an MS was way more than I would have gotten from working for that 8 months with a BS.

The only tangible difference I can see is that I have a better understanding of research iteration and statistically sound testing but I think you can gain that on the job as a bright engineer with the right mentorship.

movax
Aug 30, 2008

resident posted:

I did the latter but only because I was in a position to finish my MS in 8 months on top of my BS, otherwise I wouldn't really recommend it for your average job. I got lucky that the economy was poo poo at the time so my pay bump on day 1 with an MS was way more than I would have gotten from working for that 8 months with a BS.

The only tangible difference I can see is that I have a better understanding of research iteration and statistically sound testing but I think you can gain that on the job as a bright engineer with the right mentorship.

Oh that's true, I guess I was being a bit unfair there. Now that I think about it, a lot of my classmates jumped on masters because they couldn't get jobs immediately after graduation during the whole recent economic meltdown thing. My school changed around admissions requirements/timing for their masters as well to catch all the potential students they could.

resident
Dec 22, 2005

WE WERE ALL UP IN THAT SHIT LIKE A MUTHAFUCKA. IT'S CLEANER THAN A BROKE DICK DOG.

movax posted:

Oh that's true, I guess I was being a bit unfair there. Now that I think about it, a lot of my classmates jumped on masters because they couldn't get jobs immediately after graduation during the whole recent economic meltdown thing. My school changed around admissions requirements/timing for their masters as well to catch all the potential students they could.

I actually had a job offer but figured I would never again get the opportunity to complete my MS that quickly and without homework/school on top of a full time job so I asked for an 8 month extension on my start date. They were cool with it but probably only because I was hired after an internship so I had pretty much already proven myself as a worthy hire. They were nice and gave me a 6-7% pay bump while the majority of the Engineer 1/2s probably got 2-3% in that time frame.

Moral of the story...get experience before an MS.

Apprentice Dick
Dec 1, 2009
I've seen people go MS first and do well and I've seen experience then MS go well. It mostly depends on the person and the options presented for MS funding. I started mine in January, but when funding didn't get renewed for my project I took a break (because gently caress paying my money). I'm working now and am planning a move and starting at a more heavily funded school next fall.

Pander
Oct 9, 2007

Fear is the glue that holds society together. It's what makes people suppress their worst impulses. Fear is power.

And at the end of fear, oblivion.



I got a BS in nuke eng, then had a choice between MS or work. I liked choosing work, despite how easy the MS would have been to just sidle into, because with my current hindsight I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't have wanted to get a nuke MS. My college's dept was so built on R&D/lab/academia, and I find I enjoy being more hands-on and entrepreneurial. Now I think I'd end up choosing a different masters.

Glad I decided BS -> work -> MS(?). Lots more flexibility.

OctaviusBeaver
Apr 30, 2009

Say what now?

movax posted:

I don't think so, to be quite honest. At my jobs so far, haven't had many PhDs, and the ones that were had been at the company for decades. A masters turns into subject-matter-expert/technical expert and is totally desirable (at the right point in your career / experience-wise of course) though.

That said, I've thought about it for myself, because I truly love the field, but I've realized it's just me wanting the title. Years of my life focused on one little problem subject to the whims of an academic department? Think I'd rather pick up a masters or two in areas I'm interested in.

That said, I think you need the MS/PhD for the real insane/halo jobs in EE. Being a guy at Intel or Nvidia with job titles like "ASIC Architect" or "Process Architect/Engineer/Scientist" and developing manufacturing processes for ICs, I imagine you have to be absolutely stunning in your field.

I appreciate the feedback. I also haven't seen many Phds, but I was kind of worried it was because they had way cooler jobs than me. I think I'm going to set further grad school to the side for right now and consider switching jobs once I finish my MS.

I'm starting to think what I really need to do is switch career paths. The stuff I have really enjoyed is prototyping and building stuff in the lab that I'm coming up with myself. For my MS stuff at school and some hobbyist stuff on the side I do circuit design, PCB layouts and embedded systems programming and I really enjoy it. What type of industry jobs could I look for where I would get to do that sort of stuff?

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


My parents are going loving bonkers that I'm doing a couple years of work experience before committing to an MS/PhD. I keep telling them that field experience is incredibly important for any engineer, but they can't shake the notion that no grad degree = not enough money to live and keep pestering me to go back to school immediately. Sorry guys, but that would be a horrible idea when I'm not 100% sure on what I want to do. Which brings me to...

Marzzle posted:

I did bioinformatics for an academic lab for about two years. Are you interested in research? Academia? Commercial development?

What you should do will probably depend on where you want to end up. Pretty much all programming experience makes you a good candidate for bioinformatics. The actual work probably has a lot more statistics than CS which is a lot of what people learn in grad school. Graduate degrees are the norm for the field.

If you want to actually work independently on your own research interest then you basically have to get a PhD. A lot of scientists still view bioinformaticists as a support role so you may be annoyed by that. Things are constantly changing (like, more than regular CS jobs) so a skill set you learn right now will require a lot of learning in order to keep up with the field.

Fortunately (or unfortunately) less than "normal" software developer salary means there's pretty much always going to be a demand. If for some reason you feel like no longer making scads of cash, getting into grad school should be easy and you will probably make 20-30k while getting your degree by working for PIs.

Thanks for helping me out on this. So the skillset I'd need is more statistics-based than CS? What would qualify me for a bioinformatics job in the industry, then? Is this something I absolutely have to go to school for, or is it possible to get experience through work or something like that? Would certification in a language really be that important, then, as opposed to proving that I can model something in R?

I am not sold on the idea of academia/research. Everything I've heard and seen of it makes it feel extremely political and harrowing (I've read the grad student thread :ohdear:) and I'm just not cut out for it. I'm not saying it's 100% not going to happen, but I'd really have to think about it first. I am far happier when I'm working on a project with a real outcome and something I can point to when I'm done with it.

Grad school, I am not averse to either, but I am definitely not at the point where I can handle it. I have not found precisely what it is I want to devote my entire life to and won't for a few years. An MS or PhD is probably at least a couple years off.

Noctone
Oct 25, 2005

XO til we overdose..
Grad school is something you really shouldn't do unless you have a very specific area of study in mind. I know if I had done it after undergrad it would have been useless, and in all probability in an area of study that I would've ended up hating. I'm five and a half years out of undergrad and I only just now have an inkling of what I would study in grad school if I ever decide to get an MS.

grover
Jan 23, 2002

PEW PEW PEW
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Grad school is largely a waste for engineering; two years experience would serve you far better than 2 years of grad school. The exception is of you get an MBA or something and roll into management.

Zuph
Jul 24, 2003
Zupht0r 6000 Turbo Type-R
I followed through with my M. Eng. immediately following my undergrad, but during my undergrad, I had completely 3 Co-op internship semesters. My field of interest was completely unrelated to my co-op, and my M. Eng. thesis was only tangentally related.

Anecdotally, I've had an easier time getting my foot in doors of places I'd like to work than peers with just a bachelors degree. By the end of the interview, though, demonstrating an ability to get poo poo done is what has gotten me jobs.

Personally, completing the M. Eng. really helped me to develop those "get poo poo done" skills. I don't regret it in the least, but I'm not as jaded towards academia as most engineers seem to be.

Isentropy
Dec 12, 2010

Zuph posted:

I followed through with my M. Eng. immediately following my undergrad, but during my undergrad, I had completely 3 Co-op internship semesters. My field of interest was completely unrelated to my co-op, and my M. Eng. thesis was only tangentally related.

Anecdotally, I've had an easier time getting my foot in doors of places I'd like to work than peers with just a bachelors degree. By the end of the interview, though, demonstrating an ability to get poo poo done is what has gotten me jobs.

Personally, completing the M. Eng. really helped me to develop those "get poo poo done" skills. I don't regret it in the least, but I'm not as jaded towards academia as most engineers seem to be.

I was thinking about going to graduate school and doing a controls based project. I think I might be the only mechanical engineer I know who finds that to be their favourite class, but every graduate project that I've seen in that field just sounds so interesting to me.

My question: how hard was graduate school compared to undergrad? I have the impression that it's about the same difficulty, if not more.

e: edited to be more specific about the field I'm interested in

Isentropy fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Nov 1, 2012

Noctone
Oct 25, 2005

XO til we overdose..

grover posted:

Grad school is largely a waste for engineering; two years experience would serve you far better than 2 years of grad school. The exception is of you get an MBA or something and roll into management.

Yeah as someone who is currently looking for a new job, I've noticed that it's really only the elite companies like Intel that give a poo poo about graduate degrees for engineering.

Bluff
Oct 7, 2009

by Ralp
I'm preparing my resume for a rash of (hopeful) interviews here on campus.

I'm a sophomore, with a 3.03 (Set for a 3.5+ this year now that I have some study skills) in mechanical engineering at a top 10 school. I have two summer internships with the same company (one mostly manual labor/shop help and I was invited back for a second summer with more in depth stuff) under my belt. I'm active in several clubs; running for president of our division 1 rugby team this year and I'm relatively active with the FSAE club and business engineering association on campus. I'm also getting a minor in classics, as I tested out/got AP credit for nearly all of my electives and I love the subject. I've got decent shop experience and my past employer invited me back to work over the winter break, offering to teach me how to TIG weld and operate his CNC after I expressed interest. The head of the company is willing to be used as a reference.

I'm comfortable with my social skills and I've got a lot of leadership experience, so I'm pretty sure I can nail an interview if I get to talking with someone, but in order to do that I need a great resume to combat that 3.0.

Anyone have any resources for a great resume / a good template to start with for an undergraduate? Any idea what exactly I should focus on?

Thanks in advance, I'm planning on uploading it so you all can critique.

Edit: Thanks

Bluff fucked around with this message at 06:38 on Nov 18, 2012

Dead Pressed
Nov 11, 2009
This is what I used throughout school:
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/pbauden/SA/SAREZ.pdf

My graduate resume has changed very little from this format and it has gotten me plenty of compliments/interviews (note, I did make a few small changes e.g. I knocked off the objective as my full-time job hunt got more defined, cleaned up & made more pertinent for full time job hunting). In short, don't use a template, make a custom table specific to how you want to format. That way you can make it original, but not be a douche with flair.

Not to toot VT's horn, but I will anyways:
http://www.career.vt.edu/ has a pretty good stash of career services information. Would recommend taking a look around when you've got some time.

Brownie
Jul 21, 2007
The Croatian Sensation
Did anyone here get into engineering with a non-engineering degree? I recently graduated from U of T with a physics specialist and am completely unsure of what I want to actually do with it, but everyone's been telling me that engineering is an option for me but this seems really unbelievable to me. For instance, this report published by AIP shows over 30% of physics grads going into engineering.

So I guess I'm wondering if anyone got into engineering with a similar degree, and if so what did you do? I'm not sure yet if engineering is for me but it'd be nice to know if its a real possibility or if people are full of poo poo.

Crazyweasel
Oct 29, 2006
lazy

Brownie posted:

Did anyone here get into engineering with a non-engineering degree? I recently graduated from U of T with a physics specialist and am completely unsure of what I want to actually do with it, but everyone's been telling me that engineering is an option for me but this seems really unbelievable to me. For instance, this report published by AIP shows over 30% of physics grads going into engineering.

So I guess I'm wondering if anyone got into engineering with a similar degree, and if so what did you do? I'm not sure yet if engineering is for me but it'd be nice to know if its a real possibility or if people are full of poo poo.

I graduated with a Physics degree in 2011, and in August 2012 I was hired as a QA Test Engineer at a biomed company. I did a brief stint as a Business Analyst(Basically warehouse efficiency) but ended up going back to my first company, where I just applied internally for a Jr. Systems Engineering position. Everything went great except I fell a bit flat on the circuitry question. So be sure to brush up on basic mechanics/circuitry/materials.

I don't know how successful you would be if you tried to go straight Jr. EE or ME right out of school. You'd have to have a lot of relevant experience I would think. Also think about engineering management, as that's a pretty open route for Physics degree holders as well.

As I feel I somewhat represent this, the main thing everyone expects from a Physics grad is problem solving skills and the ability to pick up anything fairly quickly. This is why any type of job requiring heavy analysis is probably fair game, you just need to be able to demonstrate why you would be able to do it, both on your resume and in the interview.

swyys
Sep 20, 2012

Brownie posted:

Did anyone here get into engineering with a non-engineering degree? I recently graduated from U of T with a physics specialist and am completely unsure of what I want to actually do with it, but everyone's been telling me that engineering is an option for me but this seems really unbelievable to me. For instance, this report published by AIP shows over 30% of physics grads going into engineering.

So I guess I'm wondering if anyone got into engineering with a similar degree, and if so what did you do? I'm not sure yet if engineering is for me but it'd be nice to know if its a real possibility or if people are full of poo poo.

My first job out of college with a math (and music) degree was engineering, first doing EE-related analysis and then physics simulations in the aero industry. If you're smart and have a science degree, even non-engineering, you will be fine! Engineering as a blanket job category can be interpreted pretty loosely, and a lot of companies would vie for your skills, although probably for positions similar to the ones I had.

Have you had any industry internships? Are you looking for something hands-on or are you okay with largely cubicle/computer-based positions? Just asking because I jumped into systems engineering without looking and it wasn't really for me =/

Devian666
Aug 20, 2008

Take some advice Chris.

Fun Shoe

Pollyanna posted:

My parents are going loving bonkers that I'm doing a couple years of work experience before committing to an MS/PhD. I keep telling them that field experience is incredibly important for any engineer, but they can't shake the notion that no grad degree = not enough money to live and keep pestering me to go back to school immediately. Sorry guys, but that would be a horrible idea when I'm not 100% sure on what I want to do. Which brings me to...

When it came to higher education I didn't bother listening to my parents as they had no idea about anything at University. Most engineers get their degree and move on with their career and building a practice. Other than specialised Masters degrees most post graduate work doesn't add much, unless you specifically want to do research and get caught up in academic hurf blurfing.

I recommend just going and getting a job. Just be aware that once you're making money it's hard to get back to studying, but most do their masters degrees by distance learning and part time while still working.

Brownie
Jul 21, 2007
The Croatian Sensation

swyys posted:

My first job out of college with a math (and music) degree was engineering, first doing EE-related analysis and then physics simulations in the aero industry. If you're smart and have a science degree, even non-engineering, you will be fine! Engineering as a blanket job category can be interpreted pretty loosely, and a lot of companies would vie for your skills, although probably for positions similar to the ones I had.

Have you had any industry internships? Are you looking for something hands-on or are you okay with largely cubicle/computer-based positions? Just asking because I jumped into systems engineering without looking and it wasn't really for me =/

I haven't had any industry internships, never really thought about it during school unfortunately, as I now realize how important and useful such things can be. I never had very good grades unfortunately and so usually dismissed things like that quickly as being unobtainable.

I would probably be more interested in computer-based positions, especially simulation stuff. My undergrad research project involved numerically simulating mantle convection and it was probably the most fun and rewarding thing I had done during my entire university career.

Not sure if anyone could help me with this question, but where does one go looking for engineering jobs in Ontario? So far I've just been using my university's career site + indeed.ca, anything else I should be aware of?

SeaBass
Dec 30, 2003

NERRRRRRDS!

Devian666 posted:

I recommend just going and getting a job. Just be aware that once you're making money it's hard to get back to studying, but most do their masters degrees by distance learning and part time while still working.

The nice part of this too is your employer will help you pay for it, or even all of it if you're lucky.

grover
Jan 23, 2002

PEW PEW PEW
:circlefap::circlefap::circlefap:
:circlefap::circlefap::circlefap:
:circlefap::circlefap::circlefap:
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SeaBass posted:

The nice part of this too is your employer will help you pay for it, or even all of it if you're lucky.
Yeah, I'm starting my MS in Engineering Management in two months, and my employer is paying 100% of it. Even as a full time grad student right after your BS, there are so many ways for an engineer to get paid to study, that if you're paying for engineering grad school yourself, you're doing it wrong.

grover fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Nov 6, 2012

Thoguh
Nov 8, 2002

College Slice
.

Thoguh fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Aug 10, 2023

resident
Dec 22, 2005

WE WERE ALL UP IN THAT SHIT LIKE A MUTHAFUCKA. IT'S CLEANER THAN A BROKE DICK DOG.

grover posted:

Yeah, I'm starting my MS in Engineering Management in two months, and my employer is paying 100% of it. Even as a full time grad student right after your BS, there are so many ways for an engineer to get paid to study, that if you're paying for engineering grad school yourself, you're doing it wrong.

It's also important to be aware that obtaining a fully funded full-time grad school experience might force you to jump on the bandwagon of a professor with funds whether you find their research interesting or not. That is what I did because I really didn't give a poo poo about what I was researching, as long as my degree was free. If you have a serious area of interest that is not a "hot" research topic getting full funding might not be as easy to come by.

ShimmyGuy
Jan 12, 2008

One morning, Shimmy awoke to find he was a awesome shiny bug.
One question I have for all control engineers in the field currently. I have been currently taking a mechatronics class which has involved a good amount of PLC programming. This has been hands down one of the most enjoyable subjects for me out of everything I have learned so far. Do you typically spend your time working on block/ladder coding, or is much more of your time devoted to PID's and laplase transformations?

Really what it comes down to is that I am a ME graduating in a month that has a strong love of programming and wants to figure out what field lends best to that. Are ME's typically the ones working on PLC's and are they still very common?

OctaviusBeaver
Apr 30, 2009

Say what now?

Ingenium posted:

One question I have for all control engineers in the field currently. I have been currently taking a mechatronics class which has involved a good amount of PLC programming. This has been hands down one of the most enjoyable subjects for me out of everything I have learned so far. Do you typically spend your time working on block/ladder coding, or is much more of your time devoted to PID's and laplase transformations?

Really what it comes down to is that I am a ME graduating in a month that has a strong love of programming and wants to figure out what field lends best to that. Are ME's typically the ones working on PLC's and are they still very common?

It really depends on the field. I cooped at a place that did automation in factories and it mostly programming PLCs with digital and analog logic but not using PIDs much. It was mostly just process control stuff like "if object touches sensor, start conveyor". Now I work at a power plant and a lot of engineers I work with do have to understand and use PID controls, though I believe that now you can actually implement a PID in a PLC fairly easily, though I haven't done it myself. If you're talking about R&D stuff that's probably a whole other ballgame.

Lord Gaga
May 9, 2010
The future of engineering:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL3z8jTRry4

alwayslost
May 17, 2007
and never found

T.H.E. Rock posted:

PS If any EE wants to get a job instantly, learn PCB layout on a couple of tools (been doing it since graduation). Unemployed designers basically don't exist and the pay's decent. I got hired to do it out of school as an ME with little experience and not so much as a circuits course, so obviously there's not a whole lot of talent out there. Recruiters call me all the time and I'd probably accept if I had any interest in continuing in the field.

Could you elaborate on this a little bit, such as where a lot of this work is, what "tools" you're talking about, how best to present such things on your resume if you don't have any professional experience in that yet, and maybe a few names of companies that recruiters were contacting you for.

alwayslost fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Nov 8, 2012

resident
Dec 22, 2005

WE WERE ALL UP IN THAT SHIT LIKE A MUTHAFUCKA. IT'S CLEANER THAN A BROKE DICK DOG.

alwayslost posted:

Could you elaborate on this a little bit, such as where a lot of this work is, what "tools" you're talking about, how best to present such things on your resume if you don't have any professional experience in that yet, and maybe a few names of companies that recruiters were contacting you for.

At my job PCB designers are on the same level as an electrical tech. Essential to development but with very limited growth potential. They know how to use a tool but have pretty minimal understanding of theory and troubleshooting. Most of the PCB designers I've worked with only know how to connect node a to node b and aren't capable of or willing to learn how to route RF, power, or EMI critical traces. A lot of the design engineers end up doing a significant portion of the routing themselves because of this.

Obviously this is anecdotal but if you are an ambitious EE with your sights set on a role with more variety and responsibility, be careful getting into this type of role. Places like Microsoft, Apple, HP, Motorola, Dell, etc will be the biggest names that use PCB designers. Cadence, Zuken Cadstar, and Eagle are 3 popular design SWs. Once you know one its very easy to figure most out.

resident fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Nov 8, 2012

huhu
Feb 24, 2006
I'm in my senior year looking for the first job out of college. I've already finished my Peace Corps application and I think that so long as I don't develop a medical condition or go to jail, I'm accepted. I'm trying to look into other jobs and I'm wondering if I should still be considering internships at this point?

Also, what are the thoughts on this resume as far as content and format?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zltatg5peqpeyg5/SA.doc

A few issues/questions I have about it
- Since this is longer than a page should I try and condense to one page or add more information to two pages? If condensing I think that ....
--> Should I get rid of related courses? I'm taking a few courses this year that I think should go on there since they're optional and relate to one career path I'd like to take. These classes are Power Plants and Alternative Energy Systems.
--> Should I shorten the fraternity? I feel that Engineers Without Borders and my Camp Counselor experience are much more important. Might be about time to remove TV Company from my resume.
- As far as order of things, is this a good way to order everything?

T.H.E. Rock
Sep 13, 2007
;)

alwayslost posted:

Could you elaborate on this a little bit, such as where a lot of this work is, what "tools" you're talking about, how best to present such things on your resume if you don't have any professional experience in that yet, and maybe a few names of companies that recruiters were contacting you for.

Hey, sorry for taking forever to respond. I want to echo Resident and say this is not a good job for a BSEE - but if you've got an AA, or a really bad GPA, it's a good place to start. The tools are pretty dependent on how cheap your company is, but these are the ones I've used: PADS, Altium, Allegro, Expedition, Eagle. Learn Cadence Allegro first. They're all fairly similar. Once you learn one, it's just a matter of learning the idiosyncrasies of the others, and you'll be pretty competent. Google some stuff about RF design, follow the IC datasheets on PCB layout, be careful on footprints, and you'll be ahead of the curve. A lot of these programs have free trials (or just pirate them, because honestly I doubt they expect non-corporate buyers at their prices).

From what I can tell, the work is either vaguely around DC (because of ITAR restrictions, some defense work has to stay in the US, and a lot of defense co.'s are around DC) or on the West Coast. The UK has some jobs, too. Really, anyone who designs circuit boards is going to need someone to do layout.

edit: Make sure you list the software you've used on your resume. Try all the software I listed here - they're the most common ones. If you're an EE, try designing some a circuit board and laying it out. You can even build the thing if you've got a toaster oven or a lot of patience. If you're not, try to find some board schematics and lay out the board yourself. You don't really need to be an EE to be a PCB designer (IMO you do, but the industry seems to think this is a technician role - never mind all the poo poo you need to know to be a good designer, and how important this is in board performance).

Edit squared: if you're going to use Pads, I hope you have a long temper. Pads is the only program that's ever driven me to physical violence.

T.H.E. Rock fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Nov 10, 2012

T.H.E. Rock
Sep 13, 2007
;)
Hey, Mechatronics/control engineers, I've got a question for you. I'm really interested in both mechatronics and control systems, but I'm not sure where to go from here. I'm pretty motivated, so if I need to study something on my own, cool. Here's my issue: I'm a BSME with just the standard control systems class. Are there any resources I should check out that would prepare me for a job in control engineering? Do you have any useful links? Should I be working on projects or theory? Right now I'm torn between going to grad school for my MS or trying to get an entry level job. I don't give a gently caress about pay - honestly I'm more interested in doing work I enjoy.

resident posted:

At my job PCB designers are on the same level as an electrical tech. Essential to development but with very limited growth potential. They know how to use a tool but have pretty minimal understanding of theory and troubleshooting. Most of the PCB designers I've worked with only know how to connect node a to node b and aren't capable of or willing to learn how to route RF, power, or EMI critical traces. A lot of the design engineers end up doing a significant portion of the routing themselves because of this.

Obviously this is anecdotal but if you are an ambitious EE with your sights set on a role with more variety and responsibility, be careful getting into this type of role. Places like Microsoft, Apple, HP, Motorola, Dell, etc will be the biggest names that use PCB designers. Cadence, Zuken Cadstar, and Eagle are 3 popular design SWs. Once you know one its very easy to figure most out.
I think my experience is a bit out of the ordinary because my company is a design sub-contractor; we basically design the most complicated boards out there. So we're doing very high speed, RF, etc., designs (why the gently caress people think this isn't an engineering job is beyond me; apparently this whole industry has some weird baggage from the '80s. Some people have high school grads designing these monstrously complicated boards). Pretty out there to me as a mechanical engineer who didn't even take a circuits course in college, but it's definitely been a learning experience.

T.H.E. Rock fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Nov 10, 2012

boxorocks
May 13, 2007

T.H.E. Rock posted:

Hey, Mechatronics/control engineers, I've got a question for you. I'm really interested in both mechatronics and control systems, but I'm not sure where to go from here. I'm pretty motivated, so if I need to study something on my own, cool. Here's my issue: I'm a BSME with just the standard control systems class. Are there any resources I should check out that would prepare me for a job in control engineering? Do you have any useful links? Should I be working on projects or theory? Right now I'm torn between going to grad school for my MS or trying to get an entry level job. I don't give a gently caress about pay - honestly I'm more interested in doing work I enjoy.

It depends on the control work.

I do controls in HVAC with a bachelor's majoring in mechatronics as well as manufacturing systems (I've also got a physics degree but I never use that) which is pretty diverse in the people doing engineering e.g. apprentices who become technicians who become 'engineers' through just being around long enough, grads, professionally qualified engineers. A lot of people can do it, but on the larger or more complicated jobs customers prefer professionally/tertiary qualified engineers (mechanical engineers doing controls is fine, in fact most consultants specifying control strategies are mechanical engineers by qualification). At the end of the day knowing control theory properly sets you apart from the people who have just kinda learned on the job, but a lot of the specific implementations and language around the control ideas can vary by industry/company.

My mates in the industrial controls division do effectively the same thing with much of the controls being SISO systems. They do use more upmarket equipment such as PLCs, HART bus sensors (all the poo poo I wish I could use on a job) and there is a lot more focus on reliability. In the industrial controllers all the loop tuning for SISO relationships can be auto-magically done by the controller, that is another reason why they're expensive beyond being super reliable. In the stuff we do the simpler a process is the easier it is to control and understand with the added bonus there are fewer fuckups + lower training requirements for operators which is great for saving $$$ and having good runtime.

I do more electrical drawings, specification/implementation documentation, site co-ordination between us, the client, consultants and other subcontractors than sit down and tune loops / the system. I do, however, spend a lot of time discussing the control ideas with the consultants though. If you become a consultant it helps to listen to the control's subcontractors input; sometimes they have some good ideas too, after all it is their job to make it work :v:

Vaporware
May 22, 2004

Still not here yet.
I would look into the industry in the area. I'm in the south, so for me, pulp and paper. If you're on the coast, oil & gas. Inland, manufacturing/packaging conveyors.
The industry drives controls engineering. This means building or refitting plants/rigs. That drives who's spending/buying.
As for employers, look for "system integrator" positions, valve sizing sales engineer positions, design engineer positions within the industry purchasing the valves...
Can't think of any more places to look right now.
As for systems, look at abb, Rockwell, Emerson/Fischer/Rosemont, Allen Bradley, Honeywell.

Isentropy
Dec 12, 2010

boxorocks posted:

It depends on the control work.

I do controls in HVAC with a bachelor's majoring in mechatronics as well as manufacturing systems (I've also got a physics degree but I never use that) which is pretty diverse in the people doing engineering e.g. apprentices who become technicians who become 'engineers' through just being around long enough, grads, professionally qualified engineers. A lot of people can do it, but on the larger or more complicated jobs customers prefer professionally/tertiary qualified engineers (mechanical engineers doing controls is fine, in fact most consultants specifying control strategies are mechanical engineers by qualification). At the end of the day knowing control theory properly sets you apart from the people who have just kinda learned on the job, but a lot of the specific implementations and language around the control ideas can vary by industry/company.


This sounds like pretty interesting stuff. The two things that have interested me most throughout my engineering degree were controls and HVAC, but I've been turned off by the fact that most control applications are in the aerospace and defense industries. What sort of advice/training would you give to someone who wants to do a job like yours? Would graduate school be a good idea?

movax
Aug 30, 2008

T.H.E. Rock posted:

Hey, sorry for taking forever to respond. I want to echo Resident and say this is not a good job for a BSEE - but if you've got an AA, or a really bad GPA, it's a good place to start. The tools are pretty dependent on how cheap your company is, but these are the ones I've used: PADS, Altium, Allegro, Expedition, Eagle. Learn Cadence Allegro first. They're all fairly similar. Once you learn one, it's just a matter of learning the idiosyncrasies of the others, and you'll be pretty competent. Google some stuff about RF design, follow the IC datasheets on PCB layout, be careful on footprints, and you'll be ahead of the curve. A lot of these programs have free trials (or just pirate them, because honestly I doubt they expect non-corporate buyers at their prices).

From what I can tell, the work is either vaguely around DC (because of ITAR restrictions, some defense work has to stay in the US, and a lot of defense co.'s are around DC) or on the West Coast. The UK has some jobs, too. Really, anyone who designs circuit boards is going to need someone to do layout.

edit: Make sure you list the software you've used on your resume. Try all the software I listed here - they're the most common ones. If you're an EE, try designing some a circuit board and laying it out. You can even build the thing if you've got a toaster oven or a lot of patience. If you're not, try to find some board schematics and lay out the board yourself. You don't really need to be an EE to be a PCB designer (IMO you do, but the industry seems to think this is a technician role - never mind all the poo poo you need to know to be a good designer, and how important this is in board performance).

Edit squared: if you're going to use Pads, I hope you have a long temper. Pads is the only program that's ever driven me to physical violence.

Yeah, I don't get this either. Our main PCB guy is hourly and really painful to work with (interpersonal skills or the lack thereof), but he's picked up a lot of experience along the way. That said, I usually end up doing a lot of the sensitive routing (PCIe, DisplayPort, QPI/HT, etc) myself, since we're a small shop and don't have a license for HyperLynx to do any simulations.

Dude does have a pretty big knowledge base when it comes to manufacturing though, which is nice.

Noctone
Oct 25, 2005

XO til we overdose..

Isentropy posted:

This sounds like pretty interesting stuff. The two things that have interested me most throughout my engineering degree were controls and HVAC, but I've been turned off by the fact that most control applications are in the aerospace and defense industries. What sort of advice/training would you give to someone who wants to do a job like yours? Would graduate school be a good idea?
Maybe in specific regions, but I can't see this being true in general. There is a metric poo poo-ton of controls work available in other sectors. Oil & gas, manufacturing, wastewater treatment, chemical refineries, etc.

Sleng Teng
May 3, 2009

Noctone posted:

Maybe in specific regions, but I can't see this being true in general. There is a metric poo poo-ton of controls work available in other sectors. Oil & gas, manufacturing, wastewater treatment, chemical refineries, etc.

Hell as an undergrad I've done co-ops and internships in three of those industries doing controls. The field is pretty wide open with that stuff in my region of the US.

Lord Gaga
May 9, 2010
You name me a field and I will tell how how to apply controls to it. Automation is massively important in manufacturing and everything you design is getting manufactured.

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huhu
Feb 24, 2006
Would anyone who knows a decent bit about CPVC, pumps, piping, etc. be interested in taking a quick look at my senior design project? Our concept is just about finished and is modelled in SolidWorks. I'd just like to get some second opinions before we place our order for parts.

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