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Haraksha posted:As someone already said, this would be fine if the narrative being told was actually one worth reading. Kvothe's life story is incredibly dull. For all the adversity, for all the triumphs and failures, there's not really much to it. There's no glue linking the little anecdotes of how awesome, and tough, and brave, and smart he is. Stuff happens, but there's no plot. There are characters, but there's no depth. Why... Why are you reading this thread/these books/staying current with the new book's progress if you feel this way?
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Nov 8, 2012 01:31
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Sophia posted:If the librarian is an Amyr or a Ciridae or whatever has been implied, it's possible the entire university is just a front to fund some other organization that no one even knows about and contain the knowledge in it expressly for hindering technological progress. The thing with trying to apply logic to this world based on our world is that this world has basically been created explicitly by and for hidden supernatural entities who we know remain present in the world which may be shaping events to their own desires. And if that's true, it's not like Rothfuss hasn't played fair in hinting that possibility to the readers. That's essentially why I'm not bothered by Kvothe's supposed perfection. We're told from the start that he hosed up and failed, and every time we cut back to the 'present' poo poo gets bleaker. Even if Kvothe ends up rediscovering his mojo through the power of therapy, there's still a fall and redemption story waiting to happen, and that's keeping me interested in his character.
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Nov 8, 2012 01:43
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Kynetx posted:Why... Why are you reading this thread/these books/staying current with the new book's progress if you feel this way? I'm not actually. I just recently read book one and have been discussing it since. I'm not motivated at all to read book two. That doesn't mean I can't discuss ideas with other people about it. Frankly, I'm curious what other people see in it and that's basically what the discussion has been about. Hence why we've been discussing Rothfuss's ability as a world builder and the merits of the narrative. When the discussion moves to plot speculation for the next book, I'll have nothing to add and will probably stop folowing the thread all together.
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Nov 8, 2012 03:18
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Kynetx posted:Why... Why are you reading this thread/these books/staying current with the new book's progress if you feel this way?
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Nov 8, 2012 16:44
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Haraksha posted:I just recently read book one and have been discussing it since. My feelings are pretty much the same as yours, but I read the second book hoping that it would be more polished and actually get the story moving. I was wrong. Everything I did not like about the first book is magnified in the second. He's even better at even more things with even less explanation. The new areas he explores make even less sense and there is no coherent geography or political structure.
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Nov 8, 2012 18:38
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Acinonyx posted:My feelings are pretty much the same as yours, but I read the second book hoping that it would be more polished and actually get the story moving. I was wrong. Everything I did not like about the first book is magnified in the second. He's even better at even more things with even less explanation. The new areas he explores make even less sense and there is no coherent geography or political structure. But because he is good at those things you bet your balls I'm gonna snatch up Doors of Stone day one so I can finally see the whole picture in his background mythology and because I'm curious about the mysteries. And also I'm morbidly curious how he's going to finish Kvothe's disastrous narrative.
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Nov 8, 2012 19:08
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These books were recommended to me by a few friends and I read them over the last month. The Name of the Wind, to me, was drat great. I was engaged the entire time and the pacing of it was near flawless. Events happened and they were written in such a way that even the most mundane things were interesting. When Kvothe gets to The University the book is just one entertaining event after another. The Wise Man's Fears, on the other hand, stumbles a third of the way through. The University stuff is still awesome and loved every bit of it, but when he leaves things become slow. The court politicking was pretty uninteresting and slow. Things pick up with the bandit stuff since you're treated to some nice stories, decent characters and a pretty gruesome but great battle. Then... it gets dumb and then dumber. I hated the Felurian. When she described the two planets and the moon and created the Shaed I found it pretty good. When Kvothe met the Cthaeh was pretty interesting too. Everything involving the Admer frustrated and annoyed me. They were terribly condescending, pretentious and pretty full of themselves. Their views on reproduction was stupidly hilarious as well. At least he gets a pretty cool sword and learns how to see the wind on command during that stuff. Then Kvothe goes back to The University and everything is right in the world. In summary: I loved The Name of the Wind, but felt The Wise Man's Fears was pretty bad during the second half - the Felurian being part of it and the Adem being the rest.
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Nov 10, 2012 04:39
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Jimbot posted:These books were recommended to me by a few friends and I read them over the last month. The Name of the Wind, to me, was drat great. I was engaged the entire time and the pacing of it was near flawless. Events happened and they were written in such a way that even the most mundane things were interesting. When Kvothe gets to The University the book is just one entertaining event after another. The Felurian had a weird semi poetic tone to it that made it seem mystical and dreamlike. The Adem on the other hand had 'man-mothers'.
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Nov 10, 2012 06:46
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Jimbot posted:The Wise Man's Fears was pretty bad during the second half - the Felurian being part of it and the Adem being the rest. No amount of tortured logic can justify the idea of a people being so cultured and civilized, but at the same time not understand that loving makes babies.
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Nov 10, 2012 21:52
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Kynetx posted:No amount of tortured logic can justify the idea of a people being so cultured and civilized, but at the same time not understand that loving makes babies. Don't forget music and song are only the tools of whores. It's not respected, unlike learning how to fight then go off into the world and kill people for money. A friend pointed out to me, Kvothe couldn't really poke holes in their stupid logic because he was, essentially, being held hostage the entire time he was there. Vashet got really pissed off at him when he pointed out that, basically, they're learning this poo poo to go off to become glorified mercenaries and kill people but since they follow not-bushido every action they make is right and the barbarians are wrong.
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Nov 10, 2012 22:16
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The Adem being moderately advanced but still having ridiculous ideas about genetics and thinking that music is shameful makes about as much sense as people in the Golden Age of Islam making vast strides in math, science, medicine, art, and philosophy and yet still believing that a magic man in the sky told them not to eat certain meat or else they'd be condemned forever. Or as much sense as the people in the Renaissance making similarly vast strides in the exact same areas all while believing that an all powerful god in the sky sent himself down to earth as his own son and then tortured himself to get rid of the sins of all of mankind oh and by the way he wants you to eat his flesh and drink his blood. Or it makes as much sense as the Mayans building vast cities, intricate calendars and mathematic systems, and advanced agricultural systems and yet still believing that they had to feed human sacrifices to the sun god to make sure the world didn't end up plunged into darkness. I don't see why the ridiculous poo poo that the Adem believe is any more ridiculous than what most human beings have believed for most of our history or any more ridiculous than what most human beings believe right now. Do you really find it implausible that they would find music and song shameful? Have you forgotten how few decades have passed since people thought rock and roll was literally Satan's music?
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Nov 10, 2012 22:41
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So, you're equating not understanding the most basic elements of human reproduction with religious faith? You DO understand that religion doesn't preclude science, right?
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Nov 10, 2012 23:06
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I take the Adem's weird beliefs to be no more weird than any other weird beliefs. You're labeling some things "science" and some things "religion" and saying that it makes no sense for a culture to gently caress up science but of course everyone has weird religious views. That sounds like a weird position to take but if that's how you see it, then why can't we just say that the Adem religion is one that believes that men have no input when it comes to reproduction? edit: and of course people can have wacky non-religious views. Tigers as an endangered species aren't having much fun because people in China will pay good money for tiger dick as an aphrodesiac. Homeopathy, astrology, sorcery and witchcraft, alchemy, telepathy, and tons of other things are phenomena that cultures easily as advanced as the Adem have believed in. Isaac Newton invented calculus, figured out gravity, knew ghosts existed, and up until the day he died he was convinced that alchemy was totally legit. When a United States senator thinks that women can't get pregnant from rape, are you really trying to tell me that a culture couldn't think that men aren't really involved in human pregnancy? And lest you think it's just Republican senators who are idiots, the accepted scientific consensus used to agree with him. I'm not sure what would explain why it makes sense for a culture to believe that rape doesn't result in pregnancy but why it doesn't make sense for a culture to believe that human intercourse doesn't. TychoCelchuuu fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Nov 11, 2012 |
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Nov 10, 2012 23:44
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Haha a real actual "imaginary sky wizard!!!  " post. You're cute. And completely sophomoric.e. Oh geez he even dropped some wikipedia links to educate the forums. It's perfect
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Nov 11, 2012 00:51
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My favorite theory is that Adem actually do reproduce the way they claim because they are not actually human. Because that would be hilarious. But it would mean Kvothe was wrong to be a condescending dick about it, so I'm sure that's not actually the case.
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Nov 11, 2012 01:11
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An entire advanced civilization not understanding how our species propagates does make perfect sense when you consider that some people believe in God. The logic is indisputable.
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Nov 11, 2012 03:55
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I guess I'm doing a bad job of making my case or something but this has stuck in my craw since the last time it got brought up, when the discussion lasted a few pages, because the whole "the Adem are completely unbelievable because nobody is that dumb" strikes me as a worryingly close-minded view on what sorts of things that perfectly reasonable people can believe. I guess everyone is getting the impression that I think religion is a bunch of bullshit and thus if people believe religion then they can believe any old bullshit, but I wasn't trying to make that point. The point I was trying to make is that humans have had a vast range of beliefs over the millennia that we have existed. Cultures right now have thousands of beliefs, big (who created the universe, when does life begin) and small (does eating tiger penis give you a hardon?) and they all sound ridiculous to someone. The idea that there are some beliefs that are just so crazy or so obviously wrong that it makes the story unbelievable annoys me because people all over the world right now and in the past have believed stuff just as "crazy" as what the Adem believe. Much of the specifics of the Adem stuff got batted around last time so there's no need to go through it all over again - I just was trying to say that I don't know how you could get the impression that the Adem are wildly off base if you've had much exposure to the beliefs of all sorts of other cultures. I don't really understand what makes the Adem so ridiculous compared to what we as a species have believed and currently believe all around the world. TychoCelchuuu fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Nov 11, 2012 |
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Nov 11, 2012 04:30
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Sophia posted:My favorite theory is that Adem actually do reproduce the way they claim because they are not actually human. Because that would be hilarious. But it would mean Kvothe was wrong to be a condescending dick about it, so I'm sure that's not actually the case. I now desperately hope this is the case.
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Nov 11, 2012 05:41
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Sophia posted:My favorite theory is that Adem actually do reproduce the way they claim because they are not actually human. Because that would be hilarious. But it would mean Kvothe was wrong to be a condescending dick about it, so I'm sure that's not actually the case. And at the end of their life cycle they turn into a swarm of spiders that burrow into the ground and two days later there is a soft carpet of grass where the Adem made the journey back into the earth mother.
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Nov 11, 2012 09:15
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Kynetx posted:I now desperately hope this is the case. I kind of do too, but it would fly in the face of another (more persuasive) theory that the Adem and the Edema Ruh were the same people back in the day and then schismed over music (possibly because music in this world might be a gateway to Naming). They were both wandering bands before the Adem settled down, they have similar names and both take stories and histories seriously. But I still want the Adem to be aliens or Rauch or angels or something just because.
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Nov 11, 2012 15:35
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Jesus Christ. This again?FiddlersThree posted:Unless the Adem are actually right. As has already been discussed, there's been nothing so far in Rothfuss' writing to indicate whether the Adem are right or wrong in their belief; it could very easily be something peculiar to their biology and/or rigorous physical training that makes their theory hold up.
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Nov 11, 2012 15:58
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Well, here's something we can all agree on: whether or not the whole concept is stupid, the last thing the book needed at that point or at any other point was an excuse for Kvothe to have more casual sex with more people.
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Nov 11, 2012 18:47
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FiddlersThree posted:Jesus Christ. This again? You don't ask "what if..." because that's a line of thinking that leads to infinite possibilities.
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Nov 11, 2012 19:43
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Above Our Own posted:Look at you quoting yourself as if you single handedly ended the discussion last time it came up. Your point sucks and you never answered my main criticism of it last time, which was that it's the author's job to substantiate theories with clues in the text and not the readers. So any random bullshit you come up with that doesn't have a direct line to authorial intent has zero weight. My point was that this discussion keeps popping up in this thread and everybody just repeats the same points. There's no progress to be made on this question, because either it bothers you or it doesn't. You -- and everyone else saying that the Adem are unbelievable because of their beliefs -- are specifically discarding the textual evidence that is presented, which is the Adem themselves testifying about how their reproduction works. You are just choosing not to believe them. I don't understand what sort of additional textual clues you would be looking for to 'prove' that they are right or wrong, because that is impossible to achieve as what we're hearing about the Adem is 2nd-degree hearsay -- we're getting their reproductive breakdown as Kvothe telling a story about a story he was told. We can't have an objective description of what the Adem women do to trigger reproduction (if their reproduction does indeed work that way) because there is no way that Kvothe can directly experience that. I guess you could argue that Kvothe could have researched it at the Medica after he got back to the University, but what would be the point? Either the man-mother thing is going to be important later (in which case Rothfuss will most likely explain more about it in the next book), or it won't be (in which case it will remain an odd footnote about the Adem that contributes to their characterization as a strange and slightly alien culture). Either way, we're brought right back to the crux of this "debate". Either it bothers you, or it doesn't. You are clearly bothered by it. Good for you. I am clearly not bothered by it. Good for me. This is also pretty much where we ended up in the last go-around. What now?
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Nov 11, 2012 21:31
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Now we talk about Felurian and the evil fortune future tree.
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Nov 11, 2012 21:56
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pakman posted:Now we talk about Felurian and the evil fortune future tree. A shame the tree didn't tell Kvothe that his miracle chew that sterilizes him doesn't work and he's going to be hunted down by the thousands of women he'll eventually screw looking for alimony payments. It's a little game it and the Felurian play. That would have turned the sex and fantasy trope on its ears!
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Nov 11, 2012 22:07
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Jimbot posted:A shame the tree didn't tell Kvothe that his miracle chew that sterilizes him doesn't work and he's going to be hunted down by the thousands of women he'll eventually screw looking for alimony payments. It's a little game it and the Felurian play. Much like a genie that twists your wishes around into something you don't want, that would result in hundreds more pages of Kvothe whining about money problems.
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Nov 11, 2012 22:15
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99 problems, and they're all bitches.
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Nov 11, 2012 22:22
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FiddlersThree posted:My point was that this discussion keeps popping up in this thread and everybody just repeats the same points.
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Nov 12, 2012 03:28
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Above Our Own posted:This happens in every discussion thread about anything, I mean I don't mean to sound patronizing about it but it's just a reality of forum based discussion. A big part of it is that new people read the book and post their thoughts on it and the discussion is rekindled. I don't really expect someone to read through ~40 pages before they post about a book they just finished reading. Nor do I. It's just that in the sea of issues that this book has, it's kind of baffling to me that the man-mothers get so much attention.
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Nov 12, 2012 14:34
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Jimbot posted:Don't forget music and song are only the tools of whores. It's not respected, unlike learning how to fight then go off into the world and kill people for money. A friend pointed out to me, Kvothe couldn't really poke holes in their stupid logic because he was, essentially, being held hostage the entire time he was there. Vashet got really pissed off at him when he pointed out that, basically, they're learning this poo poo to go off to become glorified mercenaries and kill people but since they follow not-bushido every action they make is right and the barbarians are wrong. Man this post is pretty much why I hated the Adem part. They have this entire culture that emphasises how amazing they are when really they are parasitic and their income is derived from murdering people for profit yet they are ~so noble~ .
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Nov 12, 2012 15:27
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FiddlersThree posted:Nor do I. It's just that in the sea of issues that this book has, it's kind of baffling to me that the man-mothers get so much attention. I think it's because that concept is just sooooo... goddamn... baffling... Being a fantasy novel, certain things can be ignored, but this makes no sense in the context of the narrative. Not to me at least.
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Nov 13, 2012 22:39
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Kynetx posted:I think it's because that concept is just sooooo... goddamn... baffling... Maybe the concept just didn't seem so utterly alien to me because I'd seen it before in Dune? I just read the man-mother tangent and thought, "Huh. So the Adem women are proto-Bene Gesserit," and moved on.
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Nov 13, 2012 23:02
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FiddlersThree posted:Maybe the concept just didn't seem so utterly alien to me because I'd seen it before in Dune? I just read the man-mother tangent and thought, "Huh. So the Adem women are proto-Bene Gesserit," and moved on. Ah, OK. I think I see where you're coming from. Anyone that knows better, please correct me, but I got the impression that the Adem believe ALL human reproduction is solely due to the female will, and that the rest of the world was just too stupid to notice, instead believing (chauvinistically, it would seem) that men are a requirement. One could make a case that the evidence required for such bizarre logic exists in their society, if one assumes a nearly non-stop fuckfest from the moment of sexual maturity. The only way I could think of to disprove it would be to have a woman "will" a baby into existence and for some reason miss out on her culturally-mandated gently caress-dosage. I suspect there is some ready-made handwaving excuse at the ready should the expected asexual reproduction not take place, maybe something about her anger level. These are the required assumptions, IMO. 1. Millennia of non-stop loving A. All Adem are good-looking B. If all Adem are not good looking, the average libido needs to be high enough so the uggos can still get laid 2. Enough cultural isolation to prevent knowledge of human anatomy 3. None of the Adem practice withdrawal, creampies only 4. No strictly-homosexual Adem 5. The Adem are a evolutionary branch off of Homo-Rothfussilus, capable of at-will apartheosus. B. If sexual reproduction is still required, offspring express cosmetic genes only from the mother - internal organs, tissue type and sex can be affected by male partners.
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Nov 14, 2012 00:06
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FiddlersThree posted:Nor do I. It's just that in the sea of issues that this book has, it's kind of baffling to me that the man-mothers get so much attention.
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Nov 14, 2012 06:04
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"Well, I really liked the first book, so I might as well buy the second book. ... Oh my god, it's a thousand pages.  "
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Nov 15, 2012 01:44
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Thunderfinger posted:"Well, I really liked the first book, so I might as well buy the second book. Kind of how I felt. My favorite part of the first one was the inner-inner story of what the different religions / world creation myths were. Then the second book only had that little bit about the moon and the rest was 
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Nov 15, 2012 04:52
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I don't really mind the flaws in the second book. It was still fun to read, and that's what I look for in fantasy. I'm willing to forgive the facepalm moments as long as the rest of the story is entertaining. My opinion would likely be different if I had to wait a few years for the second book to come out though. I think it's the same as watching a TV show. You can forgive a lot more flaws in a show when you watch it on DVD or Netflix because there's none of the "I waited a week for THAT?" disappointment. Having the books ready at hand didn't give me time to brood on the story.
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Nov 15, 2012 15:42
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pentyne posted:The Felurian had a weird semi poetic tone to it that made it seem mystical and dreamlike. The Adem on the other hand had 'man-mothers'. The part where they started talking in rhyming couplets made me cringe so hard I had to put the book down. To me it just felt smug, self-satisfied, masturbatory and frankly embarrassing. This was the point at which Rothfuss completely disappeared up his own arsehole. But then, I was reading Kvothe's lines in Zapp Brannigan's voice from about the third chapter of book one so I'm clearly in it for the wrong reasons.
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Nov 17, 2012 13:45
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ukiyo e posted:I don't really mind the flaws in the second book. It was still fun to read, and that's what I look for in fantasy. I'm willing to forgive the facepalm moments as long as the rest of the story is entertaining. Yeah, he definitely falls under my category of guilty pleasure fantasy. Please don't quote that out of context. I like reading good deep literature but sometimes it is fun to sit at home all day and burn through a book as fun to read as The Name of the Wind. There are a lot of people with different views on these books that cause spanning arguments; I am just waiting for someone to jump in and defend the Felurian section. Come on... Someone in the world had to like it, right? I will say, I commend him on having a more interesting fantasy setting than orks/elves/dwarves. I know he basically hits all of the fantasy tropes, but I like the faerie aspect and the sense of mystery involved in the lore. pogothemonkey0 fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Nov 18, 2012 |
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Nov 18, 2012 02:21
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God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title