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Above Our Own posted:I don't think there's a lot of room in the extant narrative for the relationship to suddenly turn into a critique of the immature & dehumanizing views Kvothe has but if Rothfuss does this in the third book I'll be impressed. It'd be easy. It would just take someone he loves and respects to reject him and tell him that people aren't tools to be used for his amusement, thus causing some sort of introspective inventory of his actions. It would require careful writing to make it believable, but it could be done.
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Nov 22, 2012 17:16
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Kynetx posted:It'd be easy. It would just take someone he loves and respects to reject him and tell him that people aren't tools to be used for his amusement, thus causing some sort of introspective inventory of his actions. It would require careful writing to make it believable, but it could be done. Again though it'll be a lot easier to denounce Kvothe's womanizing tendencies than his weirdo friend-zoned views.
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Nov 22, 2012 21:36
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Above Our Own posted:I don't think there's a lot of room in the extant narrative for the relationship to suddenly turn into a critique of the immature & dehumanizing views Kvothe has but if Rothfuss does this in the third book I'll be impressed. I really doubt Kvothe's worldview will be affirmed by the events of book 3. Him being a complete wreck, unable to use sympathy, and can't open that mystery box all speak to some shattering event that broke his mind and upended his perception of the world.
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Nov 22, 2012 21:59
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Yeah I have no doubt that things will not end well, but I also have little doubt that nothing's going to change his overall position on women in general and Denna in specific.
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Nov 22, 2012 22:52
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pentyne posted:I really doubt Kvothe's worldview will be affirmed by the events of book 3. Him being a complete wreck, unable to use sympathy, and can't open that mystery box all speak to some shattering event that broke his mind and upended his perception of the world. I'm concerned that it will turn out to be some amazingly cunning trap Kvothe set, appearing to lose his power to bring his enemies closer. Then suddenly he'll scream, "I am KVOTHE!" and kill them all while making Denna weep with love by playing a lute at her. Oh please no.
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Nov 23, 2012 01:46
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I find this thread at least as enjoyable as the books. I agree with all the criticisms made, especially the Rothfuss is weird about women comments. But I still got a lot of guilty pleasure from the books and will happily read the next one (or two or three - I doubt he'll be able to bring himself to wrap it up in one). For content, and to fill out your knowledge of Patrick Rothfuss, here he is playing D&D with a bunch of other fantasy authors. Even among this uncomfortable bunch, Rothfuss seems the creepiest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFy8wWQ1tdw
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Nov 23, 2012 03:08
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Beffer posted:I find this thread at least as enjoyable as the books. I agree with all the criticisms made, especially the Rothfuss is weird about women comments. But I still got a lot of guilty pleasure from the books and will happily read the next one (or two or three - I doubt he'll be able to bring himself to wrap it up in one). Joe's the coolest. Love his character's name: Darque Shadeaux. Rothfuss has nothing on GRRM when it comes to the creepiness factor.
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Nov 24, 2012 17:28
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BananaNutkins posted:Rothfuss has nothing on GRRM when it comes to the creepiness factor.
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Nov 24, 2012 22:32
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BananaNutkins was perhaps referring specifically to the video which I have not watched.
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Nov 25, 2012 01:30
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Above Our Own posted:Why do you think so? There are mountains of sex in GRRM's books but none of it even comes close to the awkwardness of Felurian and although there are people who have horrible views on sex you don't ever get the feeling that the author is supporting those views. Yeah, I mean explicit rape and underage sex with a barely-teen girl who's at the very best benefit of the doubt coerced into it by means of being surrounded by an army who acts as audience is so much less creepy than an immature teenage fantasy of banging a hot older woman. And yeah, I do get the impression that GRRM is titillated by the scenes he writes. I don't think he thinks they're right, but I do think there's a good chance that kind of thing gets him off. I get it. Rothfuss is not the perfectly enlightened male you are. I mean hey, you've spent the better part of 40 pages talking about it. But to tell the truth, the over-the-top doth-protest-too-much obsession with it is way creepier than the writing itself.
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Nov 25, 2012 05:47
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Sorry I thought it was OK to express things I like and don't like about the book in this discussion forum about the book 
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Nov 25, 2012 05:50
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The topic has been done to death. The horse has been beaten into a puddle of gelatin on the ground. And whatever, that's fine. Discuss all you want, that's why it's a forum. Even if I did care, I'm no moderator, I couldn't stop you even if I wanted to. But to claim that the stuff in this book is creepier than in ASoIaF, yeah I'm going to have to call that one out. Don't act all shocked, or like I'm trying to suppress your right to express your opinion just because I expressed incredulity at a hosed-up opinion coming from someone who's spent a whole lot of time white knighting from the top of their moral high horse criticizing someone for their hosed-up opinions. If you want to call me out in return, feel free, but don't play the victim just because you've painted yourself into an indefensible corner by claiming that explicit scenes of rape, incest, and underage sex is somehow more acceptable than some guy with immature views on women.
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Nov 25, 2012 06:21
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:The topic has been done to death. The horse has been beaten into a puddle of gelatin on the ground. And whatever, that's fine. Discuss all you want, that's why it's a forum. Even if I did care, I'm no moderator, I couldn't stop you even if I wanted to. New people come into the thread and old discussions get booted up again, I don't know why I should have to explain this. If you think GRRM is worse that's cool, I haven't really given it a lot of thought and was hoping some posters would weigh in with their opinions. The astute reader would might have noticed I even opened my post asking why Banana guy thought the way he did, so I'm not sure why you're going on about moral high horse whatever.
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Nov 25, 2012 06:42
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Ah, then I apologize for the misunderstanding. You're right, I was a fool to think that you had actually applied thought to the position that you took. I was wrong to think you had an opinion when you saidAbove Our Own posted:There are mountains of sex in GRRM's books but none of it even comes close to the awkwardness of Felurian Here I was, thinking that you were familiar with both series, and in comparison found ASoIaF less objectionable. Silly me! Personal? Well, you were the one that said it, so yeah, I responded to you. Nobody else has said that to my knowledge, so it didn't occur to me that I shouldn't take issue with you specifically for the opinion that you personally expressed. While we're getting personal, I did a quick check, and from page 15 of this thread, about a year and a half ago, it's rare that you're not on every single page, rehashing this same issue. Yeah, I was totally off-base when I said you're obsessing about it. When I called you out on the ridiculousness of your claim that you still haven't defended (that to be fair, you haven't really put much thought into in the year and a half that you've been comparing the two series), you pulled a passive-aggressive "aww man why are you picking on me" act instead of justifying what you said. Nice. Now, if you were actually hoping that posters would weigh in on their position (instead of what I suspect, which is that you're retroactively distancing yourself from an off-the-wall position), that's exactly what I did.
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Nov 25, 2012 07:34
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Beffer posted:I find this thread at least as enjoyable as the books. I agree with all the criticisms made, especially the Rothfuss is weird about women comments. But I still got a lot of guilty pleasure from the books and will happily read the next one (or two or three - I doubt he'll be able to bring himself to wrap it up in one). I went to a book signing that he was at this past Spring... he seemed like a fairly well-rounded guy.
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Nov 25, 2012 08:09
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TychoCelchuuu posted:BananaNutkins was perhaps referring specifically to the video which I have not watched. I was referring to GRRM's shameful 2012 Comicon panel in which he creeped eveyone in attendance out with his constant sexmingering and wheezy perv laugh. There's just so much wrong with it, you really have to watch the whole thing: http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=Di04J5BrfW0 In my opinion you can write really creepy, perverse stuff and not have it be a reflection of your personality. However, when in real life you tend to come off as a creepy perv, it only serves to validate that you are not writing an artistic work of merit outside of yourself, but using your fiction to explore naughty fantasies. Rothfuss comes off as a well-spoken, intelligent, highly misogynistic adolescent in his books. I'm not a psychologist or an FBI profiler, but I think that when his work is paired with his website musings, we can safely say we understand his character pretty well. The difference between GRRM and Rothfuss is that Rothfuss seems to lack maturity, but still has room and time to grow as a person, while GRRM corpse will soon be discovered in his underground sexlair propped up before a tv showing replays of old Jets games, pants around his fat ankles, mid-coitus with an extra sausage calzone. MartingaleJack fucked around with this message at 09:57 on Nov 25, 2012 |
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Nov 25, 2012 09:44
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This is entirely anecdotal, but after thinking about it - though I wouldn't want to spend time alone with either author - with Rothfuss I'd just want to slap him across the face for being patronizing and precious while with GRRM I'd probably want to call the police. What I know of Rothfuss makes him seem like the kind of sheltered, misogynist tool I've dealt with many times before (especially in college) whereas GRRM seems like a legitimate creep.
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Nov 25, 2012 14:14
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Didn't GRRM creep out Emilia Clarke so much that she had her contract renegotiated to add a no-nudity clause?
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Nov 25, 2012 14:31
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Flatscan posted:Didn't GRRM creep out Emilia Clarke so much that she had her contract renegotiated to add a no-nudity clause? It must have been at this point that GRRM decided to write a scene where she poo poo out a river of blood while vomiting and decided never to conclude her plotline.
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Nov 25, 2012 14:37
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Flatscan posted:Didn't GRRM creep out Emilia Clarke so much that she had her contract renegotiated to add a no-nudity clause? Honestly that sounds like one of the most generically apocryphal stories I've ever heard. A cursory google says nothing of the sort, but she did have someone impersonating her for a while online so maybe that's where that came from?
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Nov 25, 2012 14:54
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neongrey posted:Honestly that sounds like one of the most generically apocryphal stories I've ever heard. A cursory google says nothing of the sort, but she did have someone impersonating her for a while online so maybe that's where that came from? I don't know, that's why I asked.
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Nov 25, 2012 15:15
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Yeah I dunno, I wouldn't believe it really, he's a creep to be sure but that one's a little out there. Thing about Rothfuss' creepery and the similar strains of it you see out there is that I have a hard time feeling that there's any sort of malice to it. It's a sort of ham-handed attitude that always seems to me that it's coming from a place of ignorance, that most people who subscribe to it genuinely believe they're being pro-chick, as it were. That doesn't make it less wrong, but it means that on a personal level I'm less sure how to deal with people who think these things.
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Nov 25, 2012 15:32
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Flatscan posted:Didn't GRRM creep out Emilia Clarke so much that she had her contract renegotiated to add a no-nudity clause? Emilia Clarke renegotiated after season 1 not to do any more nudity. In the original book's fashions she would have had one boob out for basically every scene in the back half of the season, which may have been what prompted her (or part of what prompted her) to renegotiate her contract. Or she might have just wanted not to do nude scenes anymore in general. I don't think think that he specifically as a person was what caused that to happen. However, GRRM did express his disappointment that they changed that fashion when moderating a panel that included her, and I think she was a little creeped out by it. So as with most things there is probably a tiny bit of truth mixed with a bunch of lie.
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Nov 25, 2012 17:43
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I love how people are calling misogyny on a feral kid imprinting on the first woman of his own age he meets, and not mentioning the fact that the only female Amyr gained her position courtesy of being the first rape victim. Stay classy, guys.
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Nov 25, 2012 18:04
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neongrey posted:Yeah I dunno, I wouldn't believe it really, he's a creep to be sure but that one's a little out there.
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Nov 25, 2012 18:54
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Khoryos posted:I love how people are calling misogyny on a feral kid imprinting on the first woman of his own age he meets, and not mentioning the fact that the only female Amyr gained her position courtesy of being the first rape victim. Wait, when do we find out about the female Amyr?
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Nov 25, 2012 19:03
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:Ah, then I apologize for the misunderstanding. You're right, I was a fool to think that you had actually applied thought to the position that you took. I was wrong to think you had an opinion when you said
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Nov 25, 2012 21:19
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Khoryos posted:I love how people are calling misogyny on a feral kid imprinting on the first woman of his own age he meets, and not mentioning the fact that the only female Amyr gained her position courtesy of being the first rape victim. When did this gem occur?
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Nov 25, 2012 21:20
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It's when Skarpi is telling a story about the creation war in book one. There are more female Amyr though. It's not obvious since they're only really mentioned by name in one sentence, but there seem to be three women that become Amyr.
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Nov 25, 2012 23:15
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MoreLikeTen posted:When did this gem occur? Name of the Wind, Ch. 28 posted:Others came forward. Tall Kirel, who had been burned but left living in the ash of Myr Tariniel. Deah, who had lost two husbands to the fighting, and whose face and mouth and heart were hard and cold as stone. Enlas, who would not carry a sword or eat the flesh of animals, and who no man had ever known to speak hard words. Fair Geisa, who had a hundred suitors in Belen before the walls fell. The first woman to know the unasked-for touch of man. quote:They came to Aleph, and he touched them. He touched their hands and eyes and hearts. The last time he touched them there was pain, and wings tore from their backs that they might go where they wished. Wings of fire and shadow. Wings of iron and glass. Wings of stone and blood. NotW, Ch6 posted:I believe it, Chronicler found himself thinking. Before it was just a story, but now I can believe it. This is the face of a man who has killed an angel. But on the original point, the chapter includes descriptions of many different people who would go on to become these angels. Many of them had tragic backstories, like the women who was raped. So I don't really think it stands out all that much, except for maybe it being hard to believe that presumably hundreds/thousands of years of human history had happened before this point and she was somehow the "first woman to know the unasked-for touch of man." Also that phrasing is creepy as hell but it is a creation myth so it's understandable for the language to be poetic. Above Our Own fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Nov 26, 2012 |
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Nov 26, 2012 02:56
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TychoCelchuuu posted:He's actually the advisor of the College Feminists at the college he teaches at and he thinks he's totally a feminist so this is, I think, a pretty clear case of a dumbass being a dumbass rather than someone being malicious. I don't think that gives him a free pass, though, because I suspect even people who are straight up "women are inferior and need to stay in the kitchen" don't think they're being malicious either. They're just even stupider than Rothfuss, or maybe they haven't had enough education to transform their stupidity into the form it takes in Rothfuss. Not a free pass, no, not by any stretch, and I don't think he should get one. I dunno though, it's difficult for me to articulate, let alone articulate well. So, I don't know that I can say anything here other than, yeah, I believe that he means well and the misogynist viewpoints in question are the product of lack of awareness and I hope that this means eventually he'll come around.
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Nov 26, 2012 03:30
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neongrey posted:Not a free pass, no, not by any stretch, and I don't think he should get one. I dunno though, it's difficult for me to articulate, let alone articulate well. So, I don't know that I can say anything here other than, yeah, I believe that he means well and the misogynist viewpoints in question are the product of lack of awareness and I hope that this means eventually he'll come around. I guess that's why GRRM didn't strike the same notes for me, because he seems aware that he's got hosed-up fetishes and he doesn't project them as normal. I've been thinking about some of the underage rape stuff though, I frequently forget how young the characters actually are. Partially because I started watching the show before reading the books.
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Nov 26, 2012 05:50
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The thing for me with GRRM is the assorted sorts of signing pictures you see with him being all touchy with the women there and whatnot. It's not really the contents of the books which give me a particular vibe about him, even characters' ages. It's the wandering eyes/hands pictures that get me, and it's largely what skeeves me worse about him than Rothfuss, who, I think, thinks he's being respectful (and honestly I'm reasonably sure he usually is).
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Nov 26, 2012 06:09
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I think GRRM has even gone on record saying he wishes that most of the child characters were started a bit older. I can't confirm that though. Also, GRRM can always try and get a pass for the ages of the characters because of the setting. Young girls really were married off at stupidly young ages. It certainly doesn't make it right. And it's not something that necessarily needs to be included in a book because it's true, but there is historic precedent.
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Nov 26, 2012 08:43
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Haraksha posted:I think GRRM has even gone on record saying he wishes that most of the child characters were started a bit older. I can't confirm that though. I think he was planning on having a time jump and now a lot of the people he was planning on having play certain roles are a tad too young. So nothing to do with sex.
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Nov 26, 2012 09:31
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I just finished the two books a moment ago and I have to say I really really liked this series. I hope the next one comes out soon! For some reason I loved the Denna lovestory, she's a really interesting character and I think while Kvothe looks like a Mary Sue he isn't. He really brings light to a whole boatload of vibrant and interesting characters. I think my only criticism (that bothered me) is the slow pacing. I love the Chandrians though, they are such menacing antagonists, they're there even though they aren't. Cinders appearance was a shock and whenever Kvothe learns something new about them I get real goosebumps over my body.
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Dec 7, 2012 15:32
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Affi posted:For some reason I loved the Denna lovestory, she's a really interesting character and I think while Kvothe looks like a Mary Sue he isn't. Patrick Rothfuss spotted.
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Dec 7, 2012 16:30
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I read Kvothe as a superhero. No but seriously. Kvothe is like Batman. And I'll read back a few pages because I'm sure others have opinions on the Denna lovestory. I found it cute, and I actually looked forward to those parts. I think she's easily one of the better characters in the book. Yeah whatever so he's a goon, whatever he's like 15 and I liked it. They're cute together. Kvothe (and the story) is great because of the people Kvothe (who is not THAT interesting) meet and interact with. Kvothe himself is awesome when he goes bananas and kills a Draccus, an armed bandit camp or a band of killers all by himself. The bandit camp is especially stuck in my mind. Also Rothfuss is great at rhyming. and he's handsome and clever and smart and i'm definitely not him also he has a large penis. edit; Oh so people really hate Denna? I like her. She has issues, she's free spirited, she's mysterious and she's pretty funny too. Maybe there is something wrong with me. Affi fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Dec 7, 2012 |
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Dec 7, 2012 17:49
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Denna was really bland, mind you I only could make it 250 pages into the second book before putting it down from sheer boredom. I loved the first book flaws and all but I just couldn't make it through the second book. Patrick Rothfuss sets up Denna's situation, and most womens' situation, in his universe and during that particular time well, but it doesn't excuse that there really isn't anything that compelling about her as a character. Maybe it is as Bast says in the first book, how she really wasn't remarkable to anyone but Kvothe and that Kvothe's love for her is probably why he thinks she is so interesting. I liked some of their interaction, like when that dragon thing was running around and eating trees and poo poo but she is really forgettable which loving blows since I'm trying to get into fantasy and can't find many female characters to relate to. e: I think the problem I have with Kvothe's character, which really didn't become a problem for me until the second book got boring and I had to stop excusing things, was that nothing was a challenge for him. Virtually no one was better than him at anything ever, and while I suppose that is a "unique" character trait, it just became irritating and unbelievable even in a fantastical setting. I have said this before but the fact that he was the only one who could talk to the mentally deranged girl that lives in the sewers was especially irritating, not to mention the way their interaction was written always made me feel like I was reading bad fanfiction. RebBrownies fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Dec 7, 2012 |
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Dec 7, 2012 19:53
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Affi posted:edit; Oh so people really hate Denna? I like her. She has issues, she's free spirited, she's mysterious and she's pretty funny too. Maybe there is something wrong with me. Denna as an independent person might actually be very interesting (or at least enjoyable) if she were real. Denna as Kvothe thinks about her is insanely gross. Denna as Rothfuss has written her appears to be pretty gross barring some reveal in Book 3. Which is certainly possible and I don't want to discount that. Right now she's a fairly transparent author insert of the "perfect best friend dream girl I worshiped but never made a move on because she was so free and wild and untamed but I bet she secretly loved me in her heart" which is like, ew. There are a lot of girls that guys get disgusting about who are very cool whole people, but from that guy's point of view they're not a person, just an idea of a person. Like a projection from inside of their brain onto a living doll. Rothfuss' external writings indicate that he has that proclivity, to put women he admires into a box and preserve them as a kind of collectible, and I can only imagine he was worse in college when he started this series. He did have at least one passage where he maybe acknowledged the issue, though it could have also been like "here's a conversation I've had with many of my friends about this girl I love and they were full of poo poo". And assuming Kvothe's not going to learn some kind of lesson here, Denna's presence in the book is squicky. Because she is an object not a person to both the narrator and the author. Even though as an inherent character she's fine.
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Dec 7, 2012 20:12
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