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Choadmaster
Oct 7, 2004

I don't care how snug they fit, you're nuts!

Capt. Morgan posted:

I don't know if California is different but in Arizona you need to complete traffic school 7 days before your court date.

California is nothing like this. I won't comment further since I don't know poo poo beyond that.

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Choadmaster
Oct 7, 2004

I don't care how snug they fit, you're nuts!

karl fungus posted:

I'm probably going to go with the police route. I live near a precinct, so I can just walk there and find someone to talk to about this. Don't the police want evidence, though? I don't have anything concrete to give them.

I haven't asked her why she's creepily obsessed over hating me, because I don't want to stir up more conflict. I've maintained a strict wall of silence, even when she followed me downstairs just so that she could look through the garbage I had just thrown out.

IANAL. Do you have a smartphone? If I were you, I'd whip out the phone and start recording video/audio every time she follows you, yells at you, or mutters insults in your general direction (again IANAL, but NY is a one-party consent state so the recordings should be perfectly legal. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong!). This will either freak her out enough to make her shut up/stop, or if not will leave you plenty of evidence of her harassment. (Granted, there is a chance she will go even more nuts. But that's just further evidence.) You can then contact the police about the stalking and harassment (and perhaps get a restraining order). Good luck.

nm
Jan 28, 2008

"I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

aca posted:

I got a speeding ticket in California going 80 in a 65. Since I was only going 15 miles over I get the chance to go to traffic school so that it doesn't have to go on my insurance. My question though is that if I try to contest it and lose the battle, do I also loose the chance to go to traffic school and have the citation removed from my record?

Also does anyone have any tips for writing the Trial by Written Declaration (Form TR205) or any tips how I should approach fighting it. I was clearly going over the limit but I'm really strapped for cash now and I was traveling on military orders in an unfamiliar place.

Thanks

My understanding is that if you go to trial the judge can give you traffic court but does not have too.

terrorist ambulance
Nov 5, 2009

karl fungus posted:

I'm probably going to go with the police route. I live near a precinct, so I can just walk there and find someone to talk to about this. Don't the police want evidence, though? I don't have anything concrete to give them.

I haven't asked her why she's creepily obsessed over hating me, because I don't want to stir up more conflict. I've maintained a strict wall of silence, even when she followed me downstairs just so that she could look through the garbage I had just thrown out.

Your remedies if any are very likely civil or through a residential tenancy board. What is it that you think the police will do for you?

Gilgamesh
Nov 26, 2001

karl fungus posted:

I'm probably going to go with the police route. I live near a precinct, so I can just walk there and find someone to talk to about this. Don't the police want evidence, though? I don't have anything concrete to give them.

I haven't asked her why she's creepily obsessed over hating me, because I don't want to stir up more conflict. I've maintained a strict wall of silence, even when she followed me downstairs just so that she could look through the garbage I had just thrown out.

Has she threatened you in any way, or does she just look at you menacingly and rifle through your garbage? Without some kind of threat or indication that she is too crazy to be in public, I'm not sure there is anything the cops can do.

It sounds like she has a mental illness. I had a tenant with a mental illness threaten to kill me once, and that got the CIT cops out (who are trained in dealing with mental illness). But even then they couldn't take him unless he agreed to go, which luckily he did because he was enamored with my wife, and she told him to go. He ended up being staying past the temporary 10-day psychiatric hold.

So I'm echoing the advise that you should either work it out with her individually, or get the landlord/tenant board involved. If it comes down to threats, then you should definitely call the cops or get a restraining order.

chemosh6969
Jul 3, 2004

code:
cat /dev/null > /etc/professionalism

I am in fact a massive asswagon.
Do not let me touch computer.

karl fungus posted:

I haven't asked her why she's creepily obsessed over hating me, because I don't want to stir up more conflict. I've maintained a strict wall of silence, even when she followed me downstairs just so that she could look through the garbage I had just thrown out.

I doubt you'd get a coherent answer talking to her normally. She sounds like some lonely bitter old woman that doesn't have any friends/family.

We had a lady like this in one of my old neighborhoods. Every day, she'd sit at the end of her driveway with her oxygen tank and other medical crap and scream curses at all the cars and people that walked by.

woozle wuzzle
Mar 10, 2012
My advice is to file a true police report that she's threatened you and made up things about you. Then next time you see her, threaten to slit her throat while she sleeps if she so much as looks at you again, and that if she tells anyone about this threat you'll call her a liar, and since you already created a papertrail they will believe you and not her, and that if she keeps her loving mouth shut you'll pretend like she doesn't exist, otherwise you will literally watch her choke to death on her own blood while she feebly grasps towards your smiling face, and to think of that smiling face before she opens her god damned mouth again.

This is not legal advice, I am not your lawyer, please consult with your attorney before issuing death threats so that they conform to the UCC.

Busy Bee
Jul 13, 2004
Speeding Camera Ticket question:

I received a speeding ticket via camera for going 34 mph in a 20 mph school zone. I was driving my parents car and the ticket was sent out to them, the registered owners of the car.

They are going to submit a declaration of non-responsibility form so that they will not be responsible for the ticket. However, does that mean that I will be responsible for the fine? I would only assume so but I'm not positive.

The form:
http://www.kingcounty.gov/courts/DistrictCourt/~/media/courts/DistrictCourt/Citations/BEL_Non_Responsibility.ashx

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

Busy Bee posted:

Speeding Camera Ticket question:

I received a speeding ticket via camera for going 34 mph in a 20 mph school zone. I was driving my parents car and the ticket was sent out to them, the registered owners of the car.

They are going to submit a declaration of non-responsibility form so that they will not be responsible for the ticket. However, does that mean that I will be responsible for the fine? I would only assume so but I'm not positive.

The form:
http://www.kingcounty.gov/courts/DistrictCourt/~/media/courts/DistrictCourt/Citations/BEL_Non_Responsibility.ashx

Yes.

FrozenVent
May 1, 2009

The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.
IANAL, I just spent thirty seconds reading that form, but it seems pretty loving obvious to me that you're on the hook for that fine.

E, f, b

Gilgamesh
Nov 26, 2001

Busy Bee posted:

Speeding Camera Ticket question:

I received a speeding ticket via camera for going 34 mph in a 20 mph school zone. I was driving my parents car and the ticket was sent out to them, the registered owners of the car.

They are going to submit a declaration of non-responsibility form so that they will not be responsible for the ticket. However, does that mean that I will be responsible for the fine? I would only assume so but I'm not positive.

The form:
http://www.kingcounty.gov/courts/DistrictCourt/~/media/courts/DistrictCourt/Citations/BEL_Non_Responsibility.ashx

I'm a lawyer, but not licensed in Washington. A reading of RCW 46.64.170 shows only a renter is responsible if the registered owner of the vehicle overcomes the presumption that they were not in control of the vehicle at the time of the infraction. See RCW 46.64.170(f). I don't see anything else in the code that would make you responsible for the fine, as the only other exception that might apply to you would require a cop to write you a ticket at the time of the infraction.

Edit: This makes sense for public policy because then anyone could fill out the form and lie under oath that their neighbor was actually using it when they weren't, just to screw over their neighbor. Rental companies have records of these things.

Gilgamesh fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Nov 28, 2012

Gobbeldygook
May 13, 2009
Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

Put this racist on ignore immediately!
I'm in Missouri.

As I was waiting in preoperative area, a CRNA under the direct supervision of an anesthesiologist told me she was giving me an "anti-anxiety drug" to "relax" me before my surgery. My memory abruptly cuts out some moments after the injection. The chief of anesthesiology at the anesthesiology corporation told me over the phone that they administer Versed (midazolam) to almost every patient specifically so they don't have any memory of going into the operating room. I was not told they were giving me a drug to intentionally induce amnesia, I was not told the degree to which it would sedate me, and I was not given any hint that it was completely optional. I feel incredibly violated and really loving pissed off.

I communicated to them in writing that I would be willing to just consider it water under the bridge if they apologized to me and agreed to in the future inform patients of the effects of Versed (i.e. that it will heavily sedate them and cause complete amnesia within seconds of injection) and that it is optional. They refused.

No reasonable person would assume a drug being given to "relax" them would have a second, unstated purpose of inducing amnesia. The prescribing guidelines specifically say patients should be warned about the sedation and amnesia. I don't want their money. Medical ethics say you should tell someone when you're giving them a drug that will seriously alter their consciousness. I just want them to apologize to me and to prevent it from happening to anyone else. I don't know how to proceed from here but I think these are my options.

1. File complaints with the relevant licensing boards, ask again for an apology, an agreement to change their behavior, and maybe like $500 for wasting my time and pissing me off. I would hope the complaints would signal to them that I'm serious and not about to go away, but I am not optimistic.

2. Pursue a medical malpractice claim. I learned everything I know about med mal from the first page of Google results, ie almost nothing except the lawyer works on contingency. I'm pessimistic about my chances of finding an attorney to take the case given that the damages would probably be entirely non-economic (pain and suffering, emotional anguish, punitive, etc). Should I be pessimistic? If I told the lawyer they could take their usual hourly rate and all fees/expenses out of any settlement or award before giving me a dime - even if that would result in me getting absolutely nothing - would that substantially improve my chances of getting an attorney? Is there any advantage to going with a smaller outfit versus one that spends a lot on advertising? If I couldn't find someone who will take the case and filed a med-mal lawsuit myself, is there any chance their insurance company would tell them to just give me what I want?

3. Just take them to small claims court instead. I believe the maximum in small claims in my state is $5000. What would stop me from individually taking the nurse, the doctor, the chief of anesthesiology, the anesthesiology corporation, etc individually to small claims court for $5000 each? I don't want their money but I'll take it if they refuse to apologize.

4. As a last resort, file criminal charges. Consent is not valid if it was given under deceptive circumstances. If I offer a woman a drink that has a roofie in it, her accepting the drink (ie agreeing to be mildly relaxed/sedated) would not constitute consent to immediately blacking out, even if she had stated she was planning to drink that night until she blacked out. It would be a hard sell to the police, the prosecutor, and my conscience.

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009

I would recommend talking to some medmal lawyers though and they will tell you what is up. Unfortunately I can't give you my specific opinion because ethics, etc etc

PRO TIP If people would phrase their questions in the form of a hypothetical, more attorneys would be willing to address their hypotheticals. Once you get specific and say it is about you, we clam up (usually.)

euphronius fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Nov 29, 2012

dingledangle
Feb 25, 2012

just add water

Gobbeldygook posted:

I'm in Missouri.

As I was waiting in preoperative area, a CRNA under the direct supervision of an anesthesiologist told me she was giving me an "anti-anxiety drug" to "relax" me before my surgery. My memory abruptly cuts out some moments after the injection. The chief of anesthesiology at the anesthesiology corporation told me over the phone that they administer Versed (midazolam) to almost every patient specifically so they don't have any memory of going into the operating room. I was not told they were giving me a drug to intentionally induce amnesia, I was not told the degree to which it would sedate me, and I was not given any hint that it was completely optional. I feel incredibly violated and really loving pissed off.

I communicated to them in writing that I would be willing to just consider it water under the bridge if they apologized to me and agreed to in the future inform patients of the effects of Versed (i.e. that it will heavily sedate them and cause complete amnesia within seconds of injection) and that it is optional. They refused.

No reasonable person would assume a drug being given to "relax" them would have a second, unstated purpose of inducing amnesia. The prescribing guidelines specifically say patients should be warned about the sedation and amnesia. I don't want their money. Medical ethics say you should tell someone when you're giving them a drug that will seriously alter their consciousness. I just want them to apologize to me and to prevent it from happening to anyone else. I don't know how to proceed from here but I think these are my options.

1. File complaints with the relevant licensing boards, ask again for an apology, an agreement to change their behavior, and maybe like $500 for wasting my time and pissing me off. I would hope the complaints would signal to them that I'm serious and not about to go away, but I am not optimistic.

2. Pursue a medical malpractice claim. I learned everything I know about med mal from the first page of Google results, ie almost nothing except the lawyer works on contingency. I'm pessimistic about my chances of finding an attorney to take the case given that the damages would probably be entirely non-economic (pain and suffering, emotional anguish, punitive, etc). Should I be pessimistic? If I told the lawyer they could take their usual hourly rate and all fees/expenses out of any settlement or award before giving me a dime - even if that would result in me getting absolutely nothing - would that substantially improve my chances of getting an attorney? Is there any advantage to going with a smaller outfit versus one that spends a lot on advertising? If I couldn't find someone who will take the case and filed a med-mal lawsuit myself, is there any chance their insurance company would tell them to just give me what I want?

3. Just take them to small claims court instead. I believe the maximum in small claims in my state is $5000. What would stop me from individually taking the nurse, the doctor, the chief of anesthesiology, the anesthesiology corporation, etc individually to small claims court for $5000 each? I don't want their money but I'll take it if they refuse to apologize.

4. As a last resort, file criminal charges. Consent is not valid if it was given under deceptive circumstances. If I offer a woman a drink that has a roofie in it, her accepting the drink (ie agreeing to be mildly relaxed/sedated) would not constitute consent to immediately blacking out, even if she had stated she was planning to drink that night until she blacked out. It would be a hard sell to the police, the prosecutor, and my conscience.

The CRNA and anesthesiologist most likely consented you at the time of administration. Then you said "yes." Then you forgot everything because of the...amnesia. Patient's vary in the level of amnesia they have after general anesthesia, but it's quite common to forget what happened in the staging room and to not have memories again until the recovery room. I really don't see what the issue is here, you received general anesthesia/conscious sedation anyways. It is my opinion that you're overreacting.

Blue Footed Booby
Oct 4, 2006

got those happy feet


I am not a lawyer, law student, or in any other way qualified to do law.

I have, however, had a few operations. I've gotten Versed before. I knew going in what it would do, because when they told me what drug they were gonna use I asked them about the effects. Like, "hey is this gonna make me nauseous, induce amnesia, or something like that" and they were like "no; yes" and I was like "cool." The doctors aren't psychic and don't know that you have a gigantic hangup about altering your consciousness. I'm not saying this to insult you or demean this opinion, but most people really wouldn't care, at least not this much. I know lots of people who've been in your shoes and said "good I didn't want to remember that anyway." This isn't like slipping someone a roofie at all because they're medical professionals and not a room full of bros, and you were completely aware of the fact that you were going to be put completely under anyway.

And in case it wasn't clear from dingledangle's post, it's entirely possible for the anesthesia to cause you to forget stuff from before the anesthesia, or to remember bits and pieces (eg remember getting the meds but not remember signing the form and being notified of the amnesia effects beforehand).

RICKON WALNUTSBANE
Jun 13, 2001


Just curious Gobbeldygook, what procedure did you have done? The CRNA was correct in saying Versed is an anxiolytic that would sedate you just fyi

Minnesota Nice.
Sep 1, 2008
And miles to go before I sleep.
And miles to go before I sleep.
I am not a lawyer, and please correct me if I'm wrong here...

Isn't it a complete waste of time to ask a doctor/nurse/medical professional for an "apology," as that would be an admission of wrongdoing, therefore setting them up for bigger headaches, i.e. potential medical malpractice suits?

It just seems like an apology/admission of guilt would be a huge no-no on their part. I don't think it's going to happen, Gobbeldygook.

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009

Skywriter posted:

I am not a lawyer, and please correct me if I'm wrong here...

Isn't it a complete waste of time to ask a doctor/nurse/medical professional for an "apology," as that would be an admission of wrongdoing, therefore setting them up for bigger headaches, i.e. potential medical malpractice suits?

It just seems like an apology/admission of guilt would be a huge no-no on their part. I don't think it's going to happen, Gobbeldygook.

Yes.

Although you can get an apology as part of a settlement of claims and I have seen clients who just want that . . . which is bizarre to me but I am an immoral lizard being.

Gobbeldygook
May 13, 2009
Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

Put this racist on ignore immediately!

dingledangle posted:

The CRNA and anesthesiologist most likely consented you at the time of administration. Then you said "yes." Then you forgot everything because of the...amnesia. Patient's vary in the level of amnesia they have after general anesthesia, but it's quite common to forget what happened in the staging room and to not have memories again until the recovery room. I really don't see what the issue is here, you received general anesthesia/conscious sedation anyways. It is my opinion that you're overreacting.
There is no solid evidence that Versed causes anything other than anterograde amnesia. Furthermore, there is no drug that reliably causes retrograde amnesia in humans. Examples of seemingly drug-induced retrograde amnesia are so rare as to be publication worthy. I can link you many studies about memory that show complete retrograde amnesia before induction is not a normal consequence general anesthesia unless the patient is given something to cause amnesia. I would be seriously surprised and interested if you could find a single study saying it's common for unpremedicated adult patients to experience zero recall of the preoperative area or operating room after they have had general anesthesia.

When I spoke with the chief of anesthesia on the phone, she never suggested I was told about the effects of Versed and then forgotten. She agreed that I wasn't told anything about the effects before it was administered. She compared telling patients about Versed causing amnesia to telling them that a ceiling tile could fall on their head during surgery, ie there was no reason to do so. Even if that possibility had slipped her mind in our phone conversation, I would think she would have brought it up in the non-apology letter she wrote me.

RICKON WALNUTSBANE posted:

Just curious Gobbeldygook, what procedure did you have done? The CRNA was correct in saying Versed is an anxiolytic that would sedate you just fyi
I was having an laparoscopic appendectomy. I totally understand that Versed is an effective anxiolytic and sedative. I just think if the manufacturer's information says it will "impair memory of perioperative events" and says patients should be informed of the amnesic effects, doctors should do that too.

Blue Footed Booby posted:

I have, however, had a few operations. I've gotten Versed before. I knew going in what it would do, because when they told me what drug they were gonna use I asked them about the effects. Like, "hey is this gonna make me nauseous, induce amnesia, or something like that" and they were like "no; yes" and I was like "cool."
...
I'm not saying this to insult you or demean this opinion, but most people really wouldn't care, at least not this much. I know lots of people who've been in your shoes and said "good I didn't want to remember that anyway."
I did ask questions. Here, as best I can recall, is the word-for-word conversation we had as she was giving it to me.
"I'm going to give you an anti-anxiety drug to relax you."
"A benzo?"
"Yes, a benzo."
"Which?"
"Versed."
"How much?"
"2 milligrams."
A pause.
"Oh, I'm not injecting it yet, I was just clearing the IV." (she kind of laughed, then grabbed another needle and began to inject it)
"Why that one?"
"Well, it's an anxiolytic, meaning it makes you less anxious, and it's amnesic. You should be feeling it pretty soon."
"Aren't all benzos amnesic?"
*cut to recovery room*

Yes, I was told it was an "amnesic" ... after it was already in my veins. My final, unanswered question was sparked by me wondering why she would specifically call out a benzo as amnesic because I know people sometimes black out from taking too much xanax or mixing it with alcohol whatever but they don't black out under normal circumstances.

Suggesting I should have sat there in the preoperative room and refused to allow her to give me an "anti-anxiety drug" until I had grilled her about every possible side effect that I would want to know about is ridiculous. They are doctors. Part of their job is informing patients of what they need to know and I think that includes "instant amnesia". Amnesia is not a freaky rare side effect of Versed, it is an intended effect.

I freely admit that most people don't mind and even appreciate the use of Versed. But let's flip it around: Since most patients want it, why am I being unreasonable by suggesting doctors should tell patients about the effects? If the patient wants it, they're happier because the doctor just said he was going to do something nice for them. If they don't, they're happy because they can say "Nah, I'm good." instead of getting a drug they don't want. Win/win!

Skywriter posted:

Isn't it a complete waste of time to ask a doctor/nurse/medical professional for an "apology," as that would be an admission of wrongdoing, therefore setting them up for bigger headaches, i.e. potential medical malpractice suits?

It just seems like an apology/admission of guilt would be a huge no-no on their part. I don't think it's going to happen, Gobbeldygook.
Yes, that is the traditional belief of doctors: Never apologize because it makes you easier to sue, so I am not exactly surprised at the lack of apology. There's strong evidence to the contrary.. One of their citations is to a study of people filing malpractice suits which found that 1/3 of those filing suits said they would not have filed a suit if the doctor had just apologized to them. The University of Michigan cut their malpractice costs in half by apologizing more often.

baquerd
Jul 2, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

Gobbeldygook posted:

Suggesting I should have sat there in the preoperative room and refused to allow her to give me an "anti-anxiety drug" until I had grilled her about every possible side effect that I would want to know about is ridiculous. They are doctors. Part of their job is informing patients of what they need to know and I think that includes "instant amnesia". Amnesia is not a freaky rare side effect of Versed, it is an intended effect.

I freely admit that most people don't mind and even appreciate the use of Versed. But let's flip it around: Since most patients want it, why am I being unreasonable by suggesting doctors should tell patients about the effects? If the patient wants it, they're happier because the doctor just said he was going to do something nice for them. If they don't, they're happy because they can say "Nah, I'm good." instead of getting a drug they don't want. Win/win!

This is all certainly true, and at least now you've learned an important lesson. Grill doctors hard about informed consent, let them know you're serious about wanting to know what's going on. When I had surgery, I told them I was not to have benzos for just the reason you are so upset because I had done extensive research about anesthesiology (I actually picked out the specific drugs they were going to use).

Doctors don't want to try to explain things when 98% of people are not going to understand or care. Think about explaining something to people that don't understand and don't want to understand, many times a day. How many times would you keep trying to explain things in depth?

I would really let this one go and chalk it up to an important life lesson. Understand that in the medical world, most patients are passive and you need to assert yourself early and often if you want the kind of treatment you desire.

algebra testes
Mar 5, 2011


Lipstick Apathy

euphronius posted:

Yes.

Although you can get an apology as part of a settlement of claims and I have seen clients who just want that . . . which is bizarre to me but I am an immoral lizard being.

Some places an apology isn't an admission of guilt for that very reason, at least in civil cases.

woozle wuzzle
Mar 10, 2012

Gobbeldygook posted:

Yes, that is the traditional belief of doctors: Never apologize because it makes you easier to sue, so I am not exactly surprised at the lack of apology. There's strong evidence to the contrary.. One of their citations is to a study of people filing malpractice suits which found that 1/3 of those filing suits said they would not have filed a suit if the doctor had just apologized to them. The University of Michigan cut their malpractice costs in half by apologizing more often.

IMHO, that's just strong evidence that people are emo retards.

dingledangle
Feb 25, 2012

just add water
I guess I just don't understand what's so upsetting here, are you standing on principle or something? You're upset to the point of legal action over ~10 minutes of amnesia which involved you rolling to the OR, being cold as gently caress, switching beds and then having your arm burned off by propofol. You already consented to amnesia (i.e. general anesthesia) so what's the big deal?

Gobbeldygook
May 13, 2009
Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

Put this racist on ignore immediately!

dingledangle posted:

I guess I just don't understand what's so upsetting here, are you standing on principle or something? You're upset to the point of legal action over ~10 minutes of amnesia which involved you rolling to the OR, being cold as gently caress, switching beds and then having your arm burned off by propofol. You already consented to amnesia (i.e. general anesthesia) so what's the big deal?
Yes. It is the principle of the thing. I have never drank until I blacked out in part because I find the idea of being able to potentially do or say things and have no recollection of them deeply unsettling.

The principle of the thing is everything to me. The appendectomy took place three days before I was scheduled to donate a kidney as the non-directed donor at the start of a kidney chain. The kidney donation process has taken eight months and a metric shitload of tests. I am willing to go to great lengths in the name of principle.

LordPants posted:

Some places an apology isn't an admission of guilt for that very reason, at least in civil cases.
I believe the number of states with "apology laws" that allow at least doctors to in some way apologize or express sympathy without it being admissable or somesuch or is up to 36. Missouri has an "apology law" but the law explicitly says it does not protect statements of admission of fault as evidence. So a doctor can say "I'm sorry you're upset about the care you received." ie it only protects fake non-apologies

BonerGhost
Mar 9, 2007

Propofol hurts like a bitch and Versed is awesome can I have your next dose if you don't want it?

If you knew the general anesthesia would cause unconsciousness and/or amnesia, what's the problem with the Versed? Not trying to be snarky. It just seems like the only difference is one was administered in the pre-op room and the other in the surgery.

E: you can and will say things under anesthesia and have no recollection of it. Which medication causes it makes no difference. Yes, it is bothersome, but unless you're holding onto state secrets and one of the OR staff is secretly a commie agent, it's quite unimportant.

BonerGhost fucked around with this message at 07:13 on Nov 29, 2012

G-Mawwwwwww
Jan 31, 2003

My LPth are Hot Garbage
Biscuit Hider

Gobbeldygook posted:


2. Pursue a medical malpractice claim. I learned everything I know about med mal from the first page of Google results, ie almost nothing except the lawyer works on contingency. I'm pessimistic about my chances of finding an attorney to take the case given that the damages would probably be entirely non-economic (pain and suffering, emotional anguish, punitive, etc). Should I be pessimistic? If I told the lawyer they could take their usual hourly rate and all fees/expenses out of any settlement or award before giving me a dime - even if that would result in me getting absolutely nothing - would that substantially improve my chances of getting an attorney? Is there any advantage to going with a smaller outfit versus one that spends a lot on advertising? If I couldn't find someone who will take the case and filed a med-mal lawsuit myself, is there any chance their insurance company would tell them to just give me what I want?


A medmal paralegal would hang up on you if you tried to get a medmal plaintiff's attorney to sue on this claim. You're not damaged.

Schitzo
Mar 20, 2006

I can't hear it when you talk about John Druce

Gobbeldygook posted:

One of their citations is to a study of people filing malpractice suits which found that 1/3 of those filing suits said they would not have filed a suit if the doctor had just apologized to them. The University of Michigan cut their malpractice costs in half by apologizing more often.

Probably something that lawyers should take note of, as well. One of our very senior partners makes it a point to tell each and every junior about the time when he was first starting out, realized he had made a significant error on the file, and confessed to the client and advised him that he should make an insurance claim.

Client appreciates the apology and the lawyer accepting responsibility, works with lawyer to find a solution, was that lawyer's single biggest client for the next 40 years.

Granted, the more likely outcome is getting your balls sued off, but if that's likely either way I figure there's no sense being a weasel about it.

RICKON WALNUTSBANE
Jun 13, 2001


Gobbeldygook, why are you so uncomfortable with being in an amnesic state in a medical setting?

Choadmaster
Oct 7, 2004

I don't care how snug they fit, you're nuts!

Gobbeldygook posted:

Yes. It is the principle of the thing. I have never drank until I blacked out in part because I find the idea of being able to potentially do or say things and have no recollection of them deeply unsettling.

FWIW, the one time I've been under anesthesia I found the memory loss unsettling as well.

I was warned about the memory loss beforehand (about the anesthesia in general; I was also given some kind of anti-anxiety drug without any warning specific to it, though being one of those patients who doesn't ask questions I can't even tell you what it was). I was also warned I might say or do things I generally wouldn't otherwise (they gave some example of aggressively hitting on a nurse), but that anything said/done would be strictly confidential.

Knowing these things ahead of time doesn't make the memory loss any less disturbing. I'm a guy who forgets poo poo nonstop on a good day; both my long-term and short-term memory are terrible, so I'm no stranger to memory loss. But the fact that this chunk of memory was "taken" made it something different - there's a definite feeling of "wrongness" there.

That said, get over it. Nobody was out to get you. Amnesia is a normal side effect of anesthesia. Make it clear to your doctors that you think future patients would be better served with more detailed information about each step beforehand and then get on with your life.

Epilogue: Years later I was sitting around contemplating the wrongness of that chunk of missing memory and *bam* - it showed up. I can remember joking around with the nurses in the prep room and then the anasthesiologist putting me under, asking me to count back from 100. *shrug* Edit: I should note the missing post-surgery recovery room memories never came back, but that's probably a good thing.

Choadmaster fucked around with this message at 08:21 on Nov 29, 2012

pork minstral
Apr 27, 2004

Into the Void
Well, hey. I'm posting in this thread.

I was just written up by a few particularly belligerent cops for public urination--specifically, on a New York City subway platform. I don't know if they personally saw me or if it was over CCTV. I suspect the latter as they didn't show up until at least 10 minutes after I appeared to urinate.

It's been written up as a 153.09, which is a misdemeanor, which realllllly loving sucks as I'm a permanent resident shooting for citizenship. I'm supposed to either show up on my court date to plead guilty, or mail in a not guilty plea within 48 hours.

Here's the wrinkle: the date on the summons is wrong. It's tomorrow. (And I'm not forgetting that it took place after midnight--it's tomorrow.) According to this guy who's clearly made a business of this that's grounds for a motion to dismiss on facial insufficiency. Obviously I only have 24 hours to verify that this is a ticket FROM THE FUTURE.

What is my best course of action here? I really, really, really do not want this on my record.

Gobbeldygook
May 13, 2009
Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

Put this racist on ignore immediately!

NancyPants posted:

If you knew the general anesthesia would cause unconsciousness and/or amnesia, what's the problem with the Versed? Not trying to be snarky. It just seems like the only difference is one was administered in the pre-op room and the other in the surgery.

E: you can and will say things under anesthesia and have no recollection of it. Which medication causes it makes no difference. Yes, it is bothersome, but unless you're holding onto state secrets and one of the OR staff is secretly a commie agent, it's quite unimportant.
A few minutes before a boxer enters the ring, the other boxer walks up to him and punches him in the face. Why should the man be charged with a crime when the boxer was about to step into the ring and get punched by him in the ring? It's just in the ring vs out of the ring. The difference is consent. That I had agreed to general anesthesia at a point in the very near future does not mean I agreed to allow any medical professional who felt like it to drug me without adequate warning.

Another difference is that if someone talks or moves while they are supposed to be in general anesthesia, it means the anesthesiologist hosed-up hard-core. That is not the case with minimal/moderate sedation with Versed, as Choadmaster has pointed out.

CaptainScraps posted:

A medmal paralegal would hang up on you if you tried to get a medmal plaintiff's attorney to sue on this claim. You're not damaged.
An unironic thank-you to you. I'm still planning to take up the time of a paralegal or two, but that helps further temper my expectations. Assuming the med-mal approach doesn't work out, is there any reason I couldn't do the small claims court idea?

Leif.
Mar 27, 2005

Son of the Defender
Formerly Diplomaticus/SWATJester

Gobbeldygook posted:

I'm in Missouri.

As I was waiting in preoperative area, a CRNA under the direct supervision of an anesthesiologist told me she was giving me an "anti-anxiety drug" to "relax" me before my surgery. My memory abruptly cuts out some moments after the injection. The chief of anesthesiology at the anesthesiology corporation told me over the phone that they administer Versed (midazolam) to almost every patient specifically so they don't have any memory of going into the operating room. I was not told they were giving me a drug to intentionally induce amnesia, I was not told the degree to which it would sedate me, and I was not given any hint that it was completely optional. I feel incredibly violated and really loving pissed off.

I communicated to them in writing that I would be willing to just consider it water under the bridge if they apologized to me and agreed to in the future inform patients of the effects of Versed (i.e. that it will heavily sedate them and cause complete amnesia within seconds of injection) and that it is optional. They refused.

No reasonable person would assume a drug being given to "relax" them would have a second, unstated purpose of inducing amnesia. The prescribing guidelines specifically say patients should be warned about the sedation and amnesia. I don't want their money. Medical ethics say you should tell someone when you're giving them a drug that will seriously alter their consciousness. I just want them to apologize to me and to prevent it from happening to anyone else. I don't know how to proceed from here but I think these are my options.

1. File complaints with the relevant licensing boards, ask again for an apology, an agreement to change their behavior, and maybe like $500 for wasting my time and pissing me off. I would hope the complaints would signal to them that I'm serious and not about to go away, but I am not optimistic.

2. Pursue a medical malpractice claim. I learned everything I know about med mal from the first page of Google results, ie almost nothing except the lawyer works on contingency. I'm pessimistic about my chances of finding an attorney to take the case given that the damages would probably be entirely non-economic (pain and suffering, emotional anguish, punitive, etc). Should I be pessimistic? If I told the lawyer they could take their usual hourly rate and all fees/expenses out of any settlement or award before giving me a dime - even if that would result in me getting absolutely nothing - would that substantially improve my chances of getting an attorney? Is there any advantage to going with a smaller outfit versus one that spends a lot on advertising? If I couldn't find someone who will take the case and filed a med-mal lawsuit myself, is there any chance their insurance company would tell them to just give me what I want?

3. Just take them to small claims court instead. I believe the maximum in small claims in my state is $5000. What would stop me from individually taking the nurse, the doctor, the chief of anesthesiology, the anesthesiology corporation, etc individually to small claims court for $5000 each? I don't want their money but I'll take it if they refuse to apologize.

4. As a last resort, file criminal charges. Consent is not valid if it was given under deceptive circumstances. If I offer a woman a drink that has a roofie in it, her accepting the drink (ie agreeing to be mildly relaxed/sedated) would not constitute consent to immediately blacking out, even if she had stated she was planning to drink that night until she blacked out. It would be a hard sell to the police, the prosecutor, and my conscience.

Versed is commonly within the standard of care for surgery. You would need to show that they failed to meet the standard of care for a med-mal claim. Ergo, you've got no claim, ignoring even the question of your damages, which are likely minimal to none. Combined with you having amnesia, I wouldn't even bother.

woozle wuzzle
Mar 10, 2012

Gobbeldygook posted:

I am willing to go to great lengths in the name of principle.

There is no principle that was violated here. You need to get over it. It's dumb poo poo like this that gum up the system for ACTUAL medical malpractice.

Sonic Dude
May 6, 2009
I'm not a lawyer, but I have enough clients in the law profession (judges and lawyers alike; everyone breaks their computer sometimes) that I get a feeling for how irritated they get when someone wastes their time. I would imagine it going like this:

Gobbeldygook: "They roofied me! Glargh blah blah blah!"
Medical center's lawyer: "No, here is the form he signed saying he consented to the anesthesia for surgery, here's his admission on the phone that he was told about it while being wheeled in, and here's a loving dump truck of case law saying that's how it works."
Judge: "Bailiff, please throw Gobbeldygook out the nearest window."

Then he throws you out the window and you require more surgery. At a different hospital.

Invicta{HOG}, M.D.
Jan 16, 2002

Gobbeldygook posted:

Yes. It is the principle of the thing. I have never drank until I blacked out in part because I find the idea of being able to potentially do or say things and have no recollection of them deeply unsettling.

You are being self-important and grandstanding here. Your distinction that the anesthesia process should only occur in the OR and that amnesia prior to that point is a violation of medical ethics or of your legal rights as a patient shows a lack of understanding of the informed consent process which you participated prior to your emergency life-saving procedure. No ethical medical principle would guide the anesthesiologist to read the entire list of manufacturer warnings for every possible drug needed to every patient before every surgery. Your desire to make memories until the last second are odd an not in keeping with the vast majority of the population and medical practice should not be changed to accommodate a special snowflake like yourself.

I would understand if the procedure was not already going to be general anesthesia with loss of control and amnesia. But you have absolutely no case here.

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009

Also, generally, as people have mentioned, One to be damaged to even consider a lawsuit. Being upset about principle is not usually a recognizable form of "damage."

There are exceptions to this rule in that often there can be statutory damages for some things.

Ashcans
Jan 2, 2006

Let's do the space-time warp again!

Hey, just out of curiousity on this...

Gobbeldygook posted:

I am willing to go to great lengths in the name of principle.

Let's say that he is so set on principle that he is willing to pay a medmal lawyer out of pocket to try and fight this claim. Would they take it knowing it would basically be racking up hourlies with no hope of success, or is there some sort of professional obligation to refuse the case? Or do they just have to say 'You know we are going to lose, right?' and they are ethically in the clear?

I imagine that people might turn it down because who wants to deal with that anyway. We won't do no-starting cases because its just a waste of everyone's time.

Gobbeldygook
May 13, 2009
Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

Put this racist on ignore immediately!

Invicta{HOG}, M.D. posted:

You are being self-important and grandstanding here. Your distinction that the anesthesia process should only occur in the OR and that amnesia prior to that point is a violation of medical ethics or of your legal rights as a patient shows a lack of understanding of the informed consent process which you participated prior to your emergency life-saving procedure. No ethical medical principle would guide the anesthesiologist to read the entire list of manufacturer warnings for every possible drug needed to every patient before every surgery. Your desire to make memories until the last second are odd an not in keeping with the vast majority of the population and medical practice should not be changed to accommodate a special snowflake like yourself.

I would understand if the procedure was not already going to be general anesthesia with loss of control and amnesia. But you have absolutely no case here.
You completely missed my point. I don't think anesthesia should only happen in the OR. I've received Versed before for a minor procedure outside of the OR. The difference is that the anesthesiologist, without any prompting from me, kept me completely in the loop about when he was administering sedatives. I was not abruptly roofied by a nurse with a syringe full of an 'anti-anxiety drug'. Serious question: Do you think a reasonable person should assume that if they are being given something for anxiety by a doctor, they should assume they are going to immediately be knocked out?

I am not also arguing for every single side effect on the packaging to be included. I am specifically highlighting amnesia because the manufacturer also does. "4. Patients should be informed of the pharmacological effects of midazolam, such as sedation and amnesia, which in some patients may be profound." I am not arguing for every single side effect on the medication insert should be mechanically repeated to the patient because I agree, that is stupid and a waste of everyone's time.

Versed's amnesic effects are a major reason why it is administered in the first place, so failing to disclose it amounts to failing to mention a major reason someone is being medicated at all. On a more practical note, if the patient doesn't know they are supposed to experience amnesia, the anesthesiologist won't necessarily know when the patient actually does remember going into the OR.

The surgery was urgent but it was not such a time sensitive emergency that I needed to be operated on within minutes or risk death. My appendix hadn't burst yet, it was just awfully unhappy and making me unhappy. I was checked into the ER the night before and had slept in a non-ER room overnight. I would never complain about the good-faith actions of a doctor in a true emergency situation outside of incredibly gross negligence.

Diplomaticus posted:

Versed is commonly within the standard of care for surgery. You would need to show that they failed to meet the standard of care for a med-mal claim. Ergo, you've got no claim, ignoring even the question of your damages, which are likely minimal to none. Combined with you having amnesia, I wouldn't even bother.
Notice how Choadmaster said he was informed of the specific thing I am unhappy about. dingledangle initially insisted I must have been told about the effects and then suffered retrograde amnesia. I am not demanding a change in medical practice that is inconceivable, bizarre, expensive, and only to accommodate special snowflakes. Actual informed consent of the effects is standard practice in some places and, for some reason, not in others like mine.

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009

In my state to file a professional negligence action you need to file with the complaint a certification from some professional in the relevant field that the claim is meritorious. Also lawyers can be sanctioned for filing frivolous claims.

euphronius fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Nov 29, 2012

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BonerGhost
Mar 9, 2007

Being administered a sedative in a controlled medical setting prior to surgery is not the anesthesia equivalent of a Million Dollar Baby-style sucker punch before a boxing match. You are splitting hairs needlessly. You consented to anesthesia; anesthesia was administered to you in a safe manner consistent with standards of care in a controlled setting and no one roofied you. Did a benzodiazepine slaughter your family?

P.S. people do often speak or move under general anesthesia and it is not always the result of gross negligence. :ssh: they just don't remember doing so!

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