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He also told Bayaz that he seriously disagreed with him on the issue of the Seed, and that if Bayaz went forward with it, there would be consequences. He called it "evil," and Bayaz shrugged it off, suggesting that Zacharus was being naive to believe in such things. Regarding Red Country: I think this is why so much effort is spent on the part of Union authorities to avoid Imperial entanglements. ufuk kongporn fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Nov 8, 2012 |
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Nov 8, 2012 19:01
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Loten posted:In Red Country? Ron Perlman.  Cant believe I didnt think of him, he'd be perfect!
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Nov 9, 2012 08:13
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Shave his head and he'd make a good Bayaz, though. What about Yulwei from the first trilogy? I'd say either the Old Spice commercial guy or Usher, if he's got the range for it. Dude was good in Hell on Wheels.
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Nov 9, 2012 09:08
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Shave his head and he'd make a good Bayaz, though. Bayaz is definitely Jeff Bridges from Iron Man
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Nov 9, 2012 14:09
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Yulwei is Morgan Freeman.
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Nov 9, 2012 17:51
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Isn't Yulwei described as being blacker than coal?
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Nov 10, 2012 01:31
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ufuk kongporn posted:Bayaz is definitely Jeff Bridges from Iron Man Yeah bald Jeff Bridges with a beard is the exact image I have of Bayaz in my head.
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Nov 10, 2012 02:36
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I got my "no cheating didn't get it off BookBarn early or from the UK Kindle Store" copy of Red Country today. I have a some good beer and some cheap whiskey to drink while Iread it.
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Nov 13, 2012 23:50
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Audibles version of the book has been available for purchase all day and is rocking a 3/5 because no one can download it. This is the first time I've had any issues with them, but drat could they have picked a worse day? Edit: In case anyone else is going through this, I'd recommend you contact their support. Although they haven't fixed it yet they did cut me a $10 credit. LASER BEAM DREAM fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Nov 14, 2012 |
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Nov 14, 2012 00:57
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Red Country was pretty underwhelming compared to BSC and Heroes. Temple sucked and Shy was ok but she reminded me of Cass from Fallout NV, which I gleefully help murder every playthrough. The POVs in general just weren't as interesting when up against Shivers, Morveer, Gorst, Calder, Tunney etc. Many of the Logan themes felt rehashed I'd like the see Joe get a bit more creative with the character next time he brings him back instead of bloody business as usual. Which is awesome but nothing really significant, setting-wise, happened this book other than the failed dragon summoning and Zacharaus sighting, which were glossed over. The ending was sorta meh; expected more given Joe's previous work. Felt Cosca/Friendly could have been left with them getting arrested and maybe let the Cripple send him off in a future book or something. Also Practical Friendly needs to happen. The way it played out seemed a bit hamfisted. Shivers just ended up a red herring. But pretty hilarious that both of their ugly disfigured mugs hosed Carlot, now carry the same sword and giggle like schoolgirls when the work gets dark.
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Nov 14, 2012 15:03
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Well I got back to reading RC last night. I am about halfway through. I have to say, I'm pretty disappointed after my initial enthusiasm: The spaghetti western theme is a huge detriment in my opinion. Maybe this is just my own bias because I hate westerns, but I thought Abercrombie could make it work here. He does not. Temple and Shy are easily two of the most boring characters I think I've ever read in any fantasy book. Temple had potential as an interesting character, but the instant he joins the Fellowship, he becomes a chore to read about. Shy is just plain boring period. She has nothing interesting about her character or personality other than she is a farm girl that likes money and knows how to use a sword. She keeps referencing her supposed "bloody past" and the more I read about her, the less I care. I don't expect any riveting character development like with Shivers or Murcatto. Logen, the looming threat of the Union/empire, and Shivers are painfully underutilized in favor of showing how useless Temple is or how Shy is worried about the people around her and blah-dee-blah-blah. Then we get possibly the most boring cowboys-vs-Indians fight I have ever read. Seriously, I almost fell asleep reading about it. All I could think while reading it was "I wonder what Superior Lorsin is up to, I wonder how Monza is doing, I wonder if Calder is doing a good job as king, I wonder how Cosca is doing, I wonder how Red Beck is doing, I wonder if we'll see Ferro again." Joe has been traditionally good at plotting. Rather than focusing on this, he's trying way too hard to stick to this godawful western theme that I can already tell will be forgotten by the next book. I really hope the next half picks up a bit, but if the review above is anything to go by, it sounds like it doesn't. Also newsflash: Randomly killing off characters isn't shocking, interesting, or even good writing. Leef barely had any character at all, so establishing his presence in the first place was a gigantic waste of writing. A drat shame, because he also had potential for being an interesting character, unfortunately Abercrombie decided not to even give one to him. All for the sake of making his story dark. GRRM has fallen into this trap too. Compared to The Heroes and Best Served Cold, two books I could not put down, Red Country (or its first half at least) is a massive disappointment. Contra Calculus fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Nov 19, 2012 |
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Nov 19, 2012 19:41
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Contra Calculus posted:Well I got back to reading RC last night. I am about halfway through. I have to say, I'm pretty disappointed after my initial enthusiasm: There is a lot of action once they get to where they are going but then again I didn't think their travels were that boring. If I need to spoiler that let me know, figured it was vague enough that it didn't matter.
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Nov 19, 2012 21:29
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Clinton1011 posted:There is a lot of action once they get to where they are going but then again I didn't think their travels were that boring. You probably don't need to spoiler it. Like I said, I am biased. The reason I'm enjoying this less than everyone else is that I've always hated westerns and I feel like Abercrombie is trying way too hard to make this a western. You've got a wagon train, the Indians, the gubberment rooting out rebels, border-disputes with Mexico (Union vs. Old Empire), whores and a pimp, a mining town, a cowardly lawyer who sucks at everything he does, a Davy Crockett stand-in (Dab Sweet), an old man with a bloody past, a strong-willed woman who works hard and has a bloody past, and they're trying to track down bandits who stole their children. This would be unique and subversive if westerns were still new. Maybe people who dislike war films would dislike The Heroes, but at least The Heroes explored new concepts with new characters as well as portray the horrors of war. I guess that this might also be the reason I've never been as in-love with the Fallout series as everyone else seems to be. The other thing is that the two main POV characters have been unbearably boring so far. Does the second half give us at least one other main POV? I don't think I can take another Shy or Temple chapter. Would more action make up for all this? I guess it depends. I wasn't really asking for more action though. BSC didn't have much action until near the end and I loved it from beginning to end. edit: VVV Oh I plan on completing it. No question. I just thought I'd give my thoughts on it so far. Contra Calculus fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Nov 19, 2012 |
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Nov 19, 2012 23:46
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O there are other POV's coming, You get a few from the band of the gracious hand, Dragon people,a few people in crease and some from people traveling with the fellowship. Edit: Like you said its the genre, since you dislike westerns so much you are going to have a hard time liking this book. Please don't put it down though, there are some really good fights with Lamb. Clinton1011 fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Nov 19, 2012 |
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Nov 19, 2012 23:52
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I've always pictured Cosca being played by a loving raggedy Daniel Day Lewis channeling some Johnny Depp. I really like Temple. I find the trials of a sneaky lawyer in the wild west of Abercrombie-land hilarious. J Bjelke-Postersen fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Nov 21, 2012 |
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Nov 21, 2012 01:19
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Papa Ring is totally Don King.
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Nov 21, 2012 07:05
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I actually thought the first half of the book was sort of boring (in comparison to other books in the series) as well, but it's definitely picks up massively as they get to Crease.
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Nov 21, 2012 14:43
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Well good, I'm going to pick it up again and try finishing it today. Ugh... I don't know why I even went on that stupid rant on Monday. Maybe I was just frustrated Leef was killed off before he had any character to establish and they hadn't done anything interesting with Temple.
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Nov 21, 2012 15:33
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Temple is arguably the most interesting character later on so I would stick with it. I thought Shy was kinda boring at that point in the book too but its deceptively longer than it seems and you learn more about her later. She is definitely no Murcatto though 
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Nov 21, 2012 21:57
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The Gunslinger posted:Temple is arguably the most interesting character later on so I would stick with it. I thought Shy was kinda boring at that point in the book too but its deceptively longer than it seems and you learn more about her later. She is definitely no Murcatto though I'm at the point where they get where they are going (Hope that's vague enough for no spoiler tags!) and I've found Temple to get more and more interesting the more time is spent on him. Logen is actually managing to act scarier. His name is starting to annoy me though.
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Nov 21, 2012 22:45
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Yeah, I hope it's a good long while before Logen is brought back. Talk about new people now.
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Nov 22, 2012 01:01
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Just finished it - now I need to go back and read the First Law again. Or maybe I should save that until Joe's next book comes out...
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Nov 23, 2012 06:43
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Here's my Red Country review. Spoiler free, I believe, but I'll spoiler it anyway just in case. In Red Country, Joe makes use of all the lessons he learned when writing the Heroes. But what made the Heroes such a great book has the opposite effect here. In the Heroes, Joe used far more numerous point of view characters than is typical of his previous books to paint a picture of a battle from every angle. The clarity of movement is crystal clear. No side truly good or evil, and there are triumphs and tragedies on both sides. The saying goes that you never know what its like to be someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. But people lie to themselves all the time, and some people even have multiple pairs of shoes. Joe uses viewpoint brilliantly in the Heroes to create real people. This realism comes from showing the difference between how these people perceive themselves and how their friends and enemies perceive them. Neither views are completely true; the truth is somewhere in between. That same technique is employed far more extensively in Red Country, but to far less effect. Joe lets us try on a whole lot of shoes this time around; Red Country is practically a foot locker of POVs. But while the Heroes used viewpoint to deepen our understanding of the main cast or to show a clearer picture of a chaotic battle, Red Country's POVs are lead boots that result in a shallower main cast, a padded word count, and plodding pace. There are simply too many characters this time around with to little to do. I couldn't remember all of them, much less care about them. It's too hard to effectively establish the personality of a character in one or two pages, and its especially too much to ask the reader to care once it becomes obvious that this person will probably never figure into the story again. The Heroes restricted its use of these scattered minor viewpoints; when they appeared, there was always goal in sight. The famous sequence in the Heroes where characters are introduced in the midst of a battle only to be killed a page later had obvious purpose--it establishes a trend, and soon enough the reader knows the that a character they know and care about will be the POV. The purpose was obvious. It was like a race towards a finish line, and the longer it went on the pace and the anticipation actually increased. In Red Country, the POV sequences aren't a purposeful race; they're a ponderous stampede with no end in sight. The people who are introduced might as well be cattle for all I could care for them. This problem rears its head as soon as Shy and Lamb join up with a caravan headed to the Far Country; the pacing slows unbearably as each and every member of the caravan are introduced in their own POV segment. The use of POV snippets here is a misstep, but an understandable one. Unfortunately, it gets worse from there. The technique is utilized again and again, until it feels like authorial laziness for not constructing a plot where the necessary details could have been perceived by the main cast. Shy becomes a one note character very soon, capable only of spitting at things through the gap in her teeth. Temple shows promise of depth, but is never given real opportunity to come alive. The plot veers between wanting to be Blood Meridian, wanting to be Going Postal, and wanting to be Red Dead Revolver, but is never as interesting as any of its influences. The stolen children, who served as the call to action of the book, end up feeling more like what they are: an excuse to get Shy and Lamb moving. That plot line, the children's plight and the reveal of their captors, is perhaps the most unfulfilling portion of the book. There is far more navel gazing and philosophizing in this novel than Joe has ever included before. Thankfully, Lamb and Cosca provide some of the best lines in any of Abercrombie's books. They never have a viewpoint, but when the crosshairs of the story settle on them, even momentarily, its a relief. Cowardice is the dominant theme of the book, but it is an unsuccessful theme. Only Lamb's plot seems to have anything interesting to say on the subject. With experimentation there are inevitably some failures. What surprised me about Red Country is that what I had expected to be its biggest problem is actually it's least; the switch to spaghetti western style dialogue mostly works. Sometimes it feels the same as when an american guy trying to pull off a british accent, but I was intrigued by the culture change, and I am extremely curious as to where Joe will be headed with his next book. Red Country is my least favorite of Joe Abercrombie's books, which may sound like an insult. But when your literary career has been as shining as Joe's, having one subpar book is hardly something to be worried about. I hope Joe keeps experimenting with his next book and keeps trying to push the boundaries of genre. But it wouldn't be too bad a thing for a return to some of the younger, simpler Joe on structural side of things.
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Nov 24, 2012 03:42
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I agree about the surfeit of minor POVs that could have been cut - they mostly just get in the way of the main POVs, and don't seem to have much justification for their inclusion either. There's some good stuff in the fellowship POVs, but the good stuff could mostly have been kept in without introducing new POV segments.
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Nov 24, 2012 11:36
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GRRM did the same thing in his latter books when he started including everyone and their brother in an off-POV chapter and it really detracted from the story imo.
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Nov 24, 2012 22:51
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Jordan did that before it was even cool.
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Nov 25, 2012 02:40
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Above Our Own posted:GRRM did the same thing in his latter books when he started including everyone and their brother in an off-POV chapter and it really detracted from the story imo. I don't really agree with that all. GRRM's prologues at least had a purpose and even the most minor of the POVs had actual story development going on. Basically the opposite of Red Country.
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Nov 25, 2012 05:04
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I think each of the five sections of the book has one chapter with the multiple POVs.
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Nov 25, 2012 07:08
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I actually liked this better than Heroes. It is a western though, in that it wants you to understand that the people you are meeting all have reasons for making this trip out to the far frontier. I didn't really feel like anyone who had a vignette devoted to them didn't deserve it. The whole point of Shy's constant references to blood in her past was to give people a good contrast with Logen. Dude's a psycho, and Abercrombie wants people to remember that. It's a little heavy handed, but given people's tendency to ignore villainy when it's presented sympathetically maybe it needs to be. Dab Sweet's little arc was actually unexpected. That's why Leef had to die. Killing someone who didn't have potential to develop into a real and interesting character wouldn't have worked so well on the reader. Plus it fits into Abercrombie's whole 'things just happen' schtick. Gonna miss Cosca though. Easily the best villainous mercenary in literature.
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Nov 26, 2012 14:01
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I'm about halfway through Red Country. My thoughts so far: I like Temple, mostly because he's a protagonist who's not good at fighting. It's one of the reasons Calder was cool too. But unlike Calder, who made up for it with his manipulation, Temple is mostly just an everyman who goes with the flow. I think it's an interesting contrast to most Abercrombie "heroes". Leef's death was really loving stupid. If you don't take the time to develop a character it isn't shocking or sad. And while Abercrombie has taken to killing characters rather anticlimatically, I felt they at least got a bit of resolution. For example, with Jalenhorm's death, it at least seemed that he was finally being released from the crushing chains of responsibility that he was saddled with. I wasn't really satisfied with Logen's sudden personality reversal at the start of the story. It seemed that after The First Law he had finally realized he was a psycho and that he was lying to himself when he tried to pretend he was a good man. And then at the start here he's back to "good man who becomes crazy when in battle, does bad poo poo while he's crazy, and then wonders whether he's a good man." He also seems to be going through the same plot arc as he did in The First Law, which I really hope isn't the case. He's cool and has some of the best scenes. But Jezal is my favorite character in all the books, and I wouldn't want him to come back if he just went through the same plot arc. The multiple POVs aren't really used well. What's the point of knowing that Hedge is a really bitter old creep when he doesn't really do anything (at least, not from what I've read)? So far, this is really good and fun to read but it still isn't living up to the usual Abercrombie standard. Then again, I didn't really like The Heroes when compared to his other stuff either until I re-read it. Sex Beef 2.0 fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Nov 27, 2012 |
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Nov 27, 2012 22:47
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TheWorldIsSquare posted:I wasn't really satisfied with Logen's sudden personality reversal at the start of the story. It seemed that after The First Law he had finally realized he was a psycho and that he was lying to himself when he tried to pretend he was a good man. And then at the start here he's back to "good man who becomes crazy when in battle, does bad poo poo while he's crazy, and then wonders whether he's a good man." He also seems to be going through the same plot arc as he did in The First Law, which I really hope isn't the case. He's cool and has some of the best scenes. But Jezal is my favorite character in all the books, and I wouldn't want him to come back if he just went through the same plot arc. Eh I didn't interpret it that way myself. Logen's come to terms with who he is and it terrifies him. He's not pretending to be a good man at the start of the story; he's running away from himself.
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Nov 28, 2012 19:19
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The Ninth Layer posted:Eh I didn't interpret it that way myself. Logen's come to terms with who he is and it terrifies him. He's not pretending to be a good man at the start of the story; he's running away from himself. I think Logen was running away the entire time actually. If I recall correctly, I think Joe said that Logen gave up on the Named Men so easily at the start of the first book out of a subconscious desire to leave his past behind. He's just more self-aware this time. I wish Joe had done a bit more with Glama Golden before killing him off, but its not a huge sticking point. Oh, and does Gorst make a cameo at anytime? I thought I had heard someone say he did but maybe I'm mistaken.
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Nov 28, 2012 22:46
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Finished it. The main thing I was dissapointed about was that Shy never really did anything. From the premise I thought the children had been kidpanned because of shadows from Shy's past and she would have to confront them along with Logen, but instead it was just Fantasy Indians and her past is only mentioned briefly. Speaking of which, the Fantasy Indians and their arc bored me to death. I'm glad that Prickomo Cocksa (which is what I'm calling him from now on) is dead, but at the same time I'm sad. He was a horrible person, but a pitiable and sympathetic one. And wow, a happy ending in a Joe Abercrombie novel. Didn't expect that. Overall, it has its flaws but I think its the best of the standalone novels. Still can't hold a candle to the trilogy though.
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Nov 29, 2012 21:22
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Someone just told me their mental image of Cosca was a disheveled Mandy Patankin. Now it has retroactively gone back and replaced whatever it was I used to imagine him as!
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Nov 30, 2012 02:32
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Spoilers for The First Law, Best Served Cold, and Red Country : I don't doubt that this has been covered dozens of times, but I just finished Red Country and I'm curious what the consensus is on The Bloody Nine. In the original trilogy, it seems pretty cut and dry that the Bloody Nine takes over even when Logen doesn't want it to. I believe the first time it happens he says or thinks "oh god no, not again, no no no" before turning. The only time he seems happy to go Bloody Nine is when he's fighting the Feared at the end of the trilogy. Then in Red Country you have him telling Shy to stay out of his way when the fighting starts. This indicates to me that the Bloody Nine is either a mental illness or something supernatural. Then you factor in that Logen seems to hate what he does afterwards, it seems he has little or no control over it. I also believe that at one point in the trilogy he mentions something about being in Bloody Nine mode for months or something and not remembering much of it (I might be wrong, it's been awhile since I read it). Contrary to that, you have a lot of instances of Logen being an rear end in a top hat while clearly not in Bloody Nine mode (like when he's in the North at the end of the trilogy) and a few times in Red Country. I also think there is a part in Best Served Cold where Shivers talks about losing it and going into a berzerker rage that was very much like the Bloody Nine after he gets all hosed up. Do you think the ambiguity is on purpose, or am I missing something that settles it? I thought that Red Country might solve the mystery for me, but I'm still stumped.
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Dec 2, 2012 05:09
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PonchtheJedi posted:Spoilers for The First Law, Best Served Cold, and Red Country : Wasn't there some speculation that Logen was unwittingly an agent of a third brother or something like that? The mythology of the books has Kanedius and Juvens, but I seem to remember a third sibling that was hardly ever mentioned. I don't know. It's been a long time since I read the trilogy, and the mythology has always been a bit murky to me anyway, but I want to say your point has been raised somewhere in this thread. Where, I do not know.
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Dec 3, 2012 15:06
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Well the whole reason bayaz wanted him was because he could talk to spirits I dont think thats much of a spoiler because its stated pretty early in the first book.
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Dec 3, 2012 16:09
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Blue Raider posted:Wasn't there some speculation that Logen was unwittingly an agent of a third brother or something like that? The mythology of the books has Kanedius and Juvens, but I seem to remember a third sibling that was hardly ever mentioned. I don't know. It's been a long time since I read the trilogy, and the mythology has always been a bit murky to me anyway, but I want to say your point has been raised somewhere in this thread. Where, I do not know. There were four of them, Glustrod is the one who tried to use the seed. I think the fourth one IS the spirit talking one, but I forget his name. They don't know what happened to him, which to me implies that he is very much still in play.
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Dec 3, 2012 16:14
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Bedesh, I think?
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Dec 3, 2012 19:28
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I have always felt the Bloody Nine was part demon. As I recall Bayaz says something in the trilogy about Demons and humans crossbreeding way back in the past and that the offspring had immense power. He says that in the present there still may be humans around with a little demon blood in them and that even that little bit would make them much more powerful than the average human. IMO the Bloody Nine is part demon and this is even hinted at in Red Country.
Huskalator fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Dec 3, 2012 |
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Dec 3, 2012 19:30
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