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Mr.48 posted:Ugh, still trying to slog through Night Lords, and Talos is getting more annoying with every passing page. Also, his guys keep winning fights for no logical reason. They inflict about the same amount of damage on their opponents as they suffer themselves, and yet every time they just get up, dust off their armor and move along while their opponents die. I think I might just have to stay away from chaos marine fluff, because if this is the best of it, I'm unimpressed. If you mean the fight against the other claw, they almost died, as should become more apparent quickly enough; also they win fights because they're the best of the warband aside from the terminator honor guard.
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Dec 7, 2012 00:57
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Nephilm posted:If you mean the fight against the other claw, they almost died, as should become more apparent quickly enough; also they win fights because they're the best of the warband aside from the terminator honor guard. Thats what bothers me, they always "almost" die. One of them stabs an enemy space marine with his gladius and that space marine dies. But if one of them is stabbed, they just grit their teeth and keep going. Its illogical and annoying. Combined with how irritating Talos is as a leader, I dont even want them to win anymore, and yet they still do for no reason, time and time again.
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Dec 7, 2012 01:52
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Mr.48 posted:Thats what bothers me, they always "almost" die. One of them stabs an enemy space marine with his gladius and that space marine dies. But if one of them is stabbed, they just grit their teeth and keep going. Its illogical and annoying. Combined with how irritating Talos is as a leader, I dont even want them to win anymore, and yet they still do for no reason, time and time again. Keep going.
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Dec 7, 2012 02:18
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Shroud posted:Keep going. I just got past Xarl's death and that was bullshit too. He stunned a guy in full terminator armor (wearing his helm) by head-butting him with his bare head. The fact that he was the one left standing and not the other guy runs contrary to all logic, even though he died afterwards.
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Dec 7, 2012 03:13
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He didn't stun him, he blinded him by covering his visor slits with his own blood.
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Dec 7, 2012 03:20
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Mr.48 posted:I just got past Xarl's death and that was bullshit too. He stunned a guy in full terminator armor (wearing his helm) by head-butting him with his bare head. Is this your first warhammer book? If you hated the Night Lords trilogy I think you're going to absolutely loathe the other books that Black Library produces.
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Dec 7, 2012 03:22
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Part of what I like about the series is that, yes they do win unlikely battles. However, look at how their existence is slowly degrading. The squad slowly dies off, and not solely because of external enemies. They support each other, even through their hatred of themselves, what they've turned into, and the desperation of their situation. They know the other traitor legions don't care about them, and they know their own primarch hated them. They follow the orders of a mutant, who they despise. In turn, their commander loathes them as well. Still, they defend each other and stand as a unit, because all they have is each other. Their strength and resources are slowly ebbing away, to the point that serfs are performing important roles that Astartes would typically carry out (for example, flying Thunderhawks). They see their own decline, they can't trust or join with other members of the same legion, even. It's not Shakespeare or Sophocles, but it's pretty drat tragic. It's a huge change of pace from the usual Chaos = pure evil/blood/mayhem cliches.
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Dec 7, 2012 03:28
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Aren't they fighting "newer" marines? I thought post Heresy marines sucked compared to ones from their era.
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Dec 7, 2012 04:27
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Azubah posted:Aren't they fighting "newer" marines? I thought post Heresy marines sucked compared to ones from their era. No. Mutations aside, basic capabilities are the same, and though training and tactics differ, they're all still astartes. In fact, traitor legionnaires are usually worse off due to having to live off scavenged equipment, even if they sometimes have access to relics from the heresy era. Their biggest asset is that, through luck or skill, heresy-era marines that survive into the 41st millennium are veterans of the Long War. They are bad motherfuckers.
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Dec 7, 2012 04:39
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Nah, there's a general "new marines are crap" vibe in the fluff due to geneseed degeneration and increased mutations. There's also the problem with some Chaos marines literally popping out of the warp to attack <place> and not realising that they're 10k years too late for the Heresy because "lolwarp".
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Dec 7, 2012 11:30
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Not book-related, but still loving awesome: Creative Assembly is going to make WH e: gently caress, read it wrong. It's Warhammer Fantasy. Still neat I guess. Samopsa fucked around with this message at 12:53 on Dec 7, 2012 |
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Dec 7, 2012 12:12
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Arquinsiel posted:Nah, there's a general "new marines are crap" vibe in the fluff due to geneseed degeneration and increased mutations. There's also the problem with some Chaos marines literally popping out of the warp to attack <place> and not realising that they're 10k years too late for the Heresy because "lolwarp". Yeah, I was going to post something along the same vein - Marines from 10K years ago are generally written as being considered much stronger and better than their modern counterparts. That being said, all of that could be typical posturing by the old guard - this is what the military is like. "The new guys have it so easy! They're a bunch of wimps!" Though I imagine that 10K years of training and fighting has to count for something...
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Dec 7, 2012 14:45
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It works a bit in reverse too. Newer chapters and characters from them are portrayed as more naive and idealistic than the original legions not to mention they all seem to revere the original legions. Case in point Huron in Blood Reaver and Grimaldus in Helsreach. Old tech is definitely better than new tech though.
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Dec 7, 2012 16:21
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Old Marines "know better" in the sense that they were there when the Emperor was still alive and could claim that he wasn't really a God, among other stuff that the Ecclesiarchy puts out and the rest of the 40k Imperium believes. This colors their perception of the galaxy, giving them a condescending attitude to the current Imperium and Space Marines who revered the Emperor as a God from their birth. Didn't Bjorn say something pertinent to that in the Emperor's Gift? Haven't read the book, but it was brought up in this thread. Part of the appeal in the Night Lords books is that you know they'll fall apart sooner or later, because it's inevitable, but they still survive and get things done (most of the time) even against all odds.
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Dec 7, 2012 17:01
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So having just finished "The Serpent Beneath" in The Primarchs am I to assume that Alpharius is working for Horus and Omegon is secretly working against him (i.e. for the Imperium) or are things simply business as usual - everyone with their own agendas, working against each other? I liked the story, and think that Rob Sanders is one of the upper tier BL writers - I just found the end of the story a little  .
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Dec 7, 2012 19:04
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Samopsa posted:Not book-related, but still loving awesome: Creative Assembly is going to make WH The last warhammer: total war game was pretty bad, so
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Dec 7, 2012 19:14
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ADB just posted on his blog that Betrayer comes out on December 14th in ebook and December 15th in hardback. So pumped to read about the World Eaters and more Word Bearer fanaticism.
Polpoto fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Dec 7, 2012 |
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Dec 7, 2012 19:50
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berzerkmonkey posted:So having just finished "The Serpent Beneath" in The Primarchs am I to assume that Alpharius is working for Horus and Omegon is secretly working against him (i.e. for the Imperium) or are things simply business as usual - everyone with their own agendas, working against each other? Wow I also just finished this last night and I had the same thoughts. At the end: Was there significance with the extra suit of armor? Omeagon is hiding it from Alpharius, but I don't know if that necessarily makes them on opposite sides. But I did get that feeling. Aaaaa
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Dec 7, 2012 19:52
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Schneider Heim posted:Didn't Bjorn say something pertinent to that in the Emperor's Gift? Haven't read the book, but it was brought up in this thread. 'God-Emperor?' The Dreadnought made the sound of gears slipping, grinding together. From the booming augmetic tone, I assumed it was supposed to be laughter. Either that, or an internal weapons system reloading. 'Calling him a god was how all this mess started.' Kysnaros was wrong-footed again, thrice now in a single minute. 'What do you... I don't-' 'Nothing. Times change, and that's the truth of it.' ... 'You... You walked in the Age of the Emperor?' Bjorn made the gear-grinding chuckle again. 'Walked, ran, pissed and killed. I did it all. I met the Allfather, you know. Fought at his side more than once. I do believe he liked me.'
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Dec 7, 2012 19:55
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Nephilm posted:'God-Emperor?' The Dreadnought made the sound of gears slipping, grinding together. From the booming augmetic tone, I assumed it was supposed to be laughter. Either that, or an internal weapons system reloading. 'Calling him a god was how all this mess started.' Bjorn's great. I could read a whole series of Bjorn being a grumpy old man telling everyone they're getting things hilariously wrong.
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Dec 7, 2012 21:28
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Schneider Heim posted:Part of the appeal in the Night Lords books is that you know they'll fall apart sooner or later, because it's inevitable, but they still survive and get things done (most of the time) even against all odds. I never completely understood why the night lords did anything. It feels as though as a legion they don't have a clear goal to achieve. I also felt like the 'purpose' Talos designed for themselves was really shoehorned in there. Same goes with the death of Curze and how it somehow translates into a message to the imperium; it felt really awkard. Maybe I didn't get it?
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Dec 7, 2012 21:35
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Mikojan posted:I never completely understood why the night lords did anything. It feels as though as a legion they don't have a clear goal to achieve. Now they exist simply to harass the Imperium - and even that is half-assed. Talos' group is one of the few that actually can focus on a goal and attempt to carry it out. berzerkmonkey fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Dec 7, 2012 |
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Dec 7, 2012 21:51
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Mikojan posted:I also felt like the 'purpose' Talos designed for themselves was really shoehorned in there. Same goes with the death of Curze and how it somehow translates into a message to the imperium; it felt really awkard. Because it was shoehorned in there, all the other Nightlords know exactly what they are (and have always been). Only Talos felt the need for some sort of purpose and the rest of the warband played along because they respected his strength. I also was under the impression that the message was always for the emperor and not the imperium as a whole.
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Dec 7, 2012 23:52
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Mikojan posted:I never completely understood why the night lords did anything. It feels as though as a legion they don't have a clear goal to achieve. I also felt like the 'purpose' Talos designed for themselves was really shoehorned in there. Same goes with the death of Curze and how it somehow translates into a message to the imperium; it felt really awkard. Curze essentially wanted to give his dad the finger and tell him to gently caress off, but he was totally crazy. I'd like to read a story of a band of Chaos Marines that aren't really into this whole "destroy the Imperium" thing, and are basically galactic warzone tourists.
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Dec 8, 2012 01:26
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Mikojan posted:I never completely understood why the night lords did anything. It feels as though as a legion they don't have a clear goal to achieve. I also felt like the 'purpose' Talos designed for themselves was really shoehorned in there. Same goes with the death of Curze and how it somehow translates into a message to the imperium; it felt really awkard. The whole really is that they haven't had a purpose for a very long time- even before their Primarch died. They've fighting merely to survive throughout the Long War whereas Huron is trying to build a pirate empire and Abbaddon is trying to actually win the war. Talos' company is basically a reflection of the entire legion, in that while they were Nightlords in name, they had abandoned any pretense of even caring about the goals of the Heresy. Your absolutely right that his made-up purpose sounded ridiculous, and his claw members called him out on constantly. But that's sorta the whole point. It's like a character piece of someone who's so disillusioned he'd grasp at any straw to keep going. Just like Kruze. Basically, what I'm saying is that in the end Talos was more or less wrong, or had failed. What brought the 8th Legion back together was a coincidence of fate that he could've never anticipated. But the motions had to go through for it to happen. Which is why farseeing is always a tricky tool in 40k.
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Dec 8, 2012 02:21
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But there's also Talos' visions to consider, and that the person to receive his geneseed is supposed to unite Curze's legion and give it purpose again.
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Dec 8, 2012 03:31
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Didn't Curze just say "eh, gently caress it" and let himself be offed by a Calidus?Kegslayer posted:It works a bit in reverse too. Newer chapters and characters from them are portrayed as more naive and idealistic than the original legions not to mention they all seem to revere the original legions. Case in point Huron in Blood Reaver and Grimaldus in Helsreach.
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Dec 8, 2012 04:16
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Scoobi posted:Wow I also just finished this last night and I had the same thoughts. At the end: Was there significance with the extra suit of armor? Omeagon is hiding it from Alpharius, but I don't know if that necessarily makes them on opposite sides. But I did get that feeling. Aaaaa I'm fairly certain... That Omega really is loyal and already planting seeds of misdirection even on his own legion in case he has to take them out to protect the empire. Alpharus, so far in the heresy, is being painted as Horus loyal. While Omega in this story seems to be painted as a loyalist in deep cover. When they get around to the conflict with Guilliman we might find out which twin survived. The Loyalist or the Heretic. Even if Omega is loyal there is no way Alpha Legion will be welcomed back. If they ever advance the 40k story the only way it would go down would be him stopping or killing Abbadon at the cost of the remaining Alpha Legionaires. Granted I'm no expert on the fluff but thats what I've gathered from the wiki and the Heresy books.
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Dec 8, 2012 08:45
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Regarding the Night Lords: Wouldn't it make more sense if the legion slowly dissolved as more and more legionnaires just settle down on some backwater hive worlds to start gangs and murder people for fun? (like those guys in pariah) As a legion I feel they shouldn't pose much of a threat to the imperium as they really don't care about anything but living a thug life.
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Dec 8, 2012 15:10
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Mikojan posted:Regarding the Night Lords: Well, the problem is that the Imperium isn't just Space Marines - fluff-wise, a squad of Marines can pretty much destroy the infrastructure of an entire planet and the local PDF won't be able to stop them. A squad of terror troops like Night Lords could really mess up an entire populace's morale. Of course, if someone like Talos was around to unify the Night Lords... well, then there could be serious issues for the Imperium.
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Dec 9, 2012 04:08
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Arquinsiel posted:Didn't Curze just say "eh, gently caress it" and let himself be offed by a Calidus? Old technology has always been better than new even in the old fluff. Things like jetbikes, robots and any 'Dark age of Technology' stuff have existed in the fluff and on the tabletop since Rogue Trader. Mikojan posted:Regarding the Night Lords: The Night Lords series explains this pretty well. Towards the end, the Night Lords were expecting to get censured having destroyed their own homeworld but the Heresy put a stop to any retribution. After Horus left, Cruze was fully broken and the legion was divided on what to do so when Cruze decided to commit suicide everyone kind of split off and did their own thing. There are still Night Lord commanders with huge numbers of well equipped troops, ships and slaves that still carry out attacks against the Imperium or are carving their own personal empires. Talos and his crew are at the very bottom of the food chain though so they seem more lost than usual and without Talos or Vandred, it seems like 10th company would have ended up just as pirates on backwater hive worlds.
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Dec 9, 2012 08:31
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Seems Amazon.com has some trouble getting copies of the Night Lords trilogy, and I'm not too sure Black Library ships to Argentina, so I'll be buying The Emperor's Gift and Know no Fear. Thanks for all the suggestions, goons. (They'll be sharing a package with ASOIAF, but  )EDIT: Nevermind, just realized Pariah is the start of the Bequin trilogy, so I'll just wait for the Omnibus, like I did with Gaunt's Ghosts. EDIT 2: Might as well get A Thousand Sons for the 4-for-3 discount. Azran fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Dec 9, 2012 |
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Dec 9, 2012 21:14
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Kegslayer posted:Old technology has always been better than new even in the old fluff. Things like jetbikes, robots and any 'Dark age of Technology' stuff have existed in the fluff and on the tabletop since Rogue Trader.
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Dec 10, 2012 03:16
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To understand the Night Lords, it's key to remember that they were basically composed of two types of Marines: the Terrans and Nostramans who got recruited when the Emperor met Curze, and the Nostramans who were recruited as reinforcements for the Great Crusade, years after the Night Lords left their world. The first group, whom Sevatar belonged to, were part of the time when Curze ruled Nostramo, when crime was an all-time low because of the Night Haunter's presence. When the Night Lords left to embark on the Great Crusade, Nostramo quickly degraded without Curze to keep the population in line, and so their ranks swelled up with the very criminals Curze worked hard to purge in his homeworld -- ironically, because they were the smartest and fittest humans. Talos was part of this latter batch, although he was very conscious of the Legion's degeneration (as opposed to Xarl, who embraced it). Most of Curze's grief was caused by the latter batch of Marines. If at first he thought the Great Crusade wasn't a very good idea at all, imagine what he felt after seeing his own Legion tainted with gutter trash. An army of hypocrites led by a hypocrite (Sevatar calls him out on this in The Prince of Crows).
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Dec 10, 2012 04:34
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How do the Chaos Legions sustain themselves? Seems like after the various losses the Thousand Suns have taken that they couldn't be considered much of a threat left. After the Wolves, barely, oval office punted Magnus back to the warp they shouldn't have much left in the way of troops. I can't imagine after the 10k years there are many of the original world eaters left behind. And, granted from one Night Lord novel, it seems both the Night Lords and The Black Legion shouldn't have much left in reserve as well. Night Lords don't seem to have much structure left and Abbadon spends people like spare change.
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Dec 10, 2012 05:59
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They reimplant old geneseed or steal new geneseed. Also, Space Marines have fallen to Chaos after the Heresy.
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Dec 10, 2012 06:05
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Arquinsiel posted:Seriously man, until 3rd ed Chaos marines couldn't have bog standard Plasma guns because it was "too volatile" in the 30k era and they never got the hang of it. It's why they still don't get Assault Cannon and use the Reaper Autocannon on terminators instead. You're talking about one or two pieces of technology that gets upgraded or refined over a 10,000 year period compared to the incredible amount of technology that has been lost. Chaos have always had access to plasma cannons since the Heresy but plasama guns were only refined later. It doesn't mean that the old technology wasn't better. Most of the 'newer' models of Land Raiders and tanks and such are actually all really old pieces of technology that have been refurbished and reequipped because the Imperium no longer has the capability to actually improve or build newer versions. Aside from the fluff and if we're talking about pre-3rd ed models and rules, there are actually models of Chaos Terminators armed with assault cannons and storm bolters. EyeRChris posted:How do the Chaos Legions sustain themselves? Seems like after the various losses the Thousand Suns have taken that they couldn't be considered much of a threat left. After the Wolves, barely, oval office punted Magnus back to the warp they shouldn't have much left in the way of troops. I can't imagine after the 10k years there are many of the original world eaters left behind. And, granted from one Night Lord novel, it seems both the Night Lords and The Black Legion shouldn't have much left in reserve as well. Night Lords don't seem to have much structure left and Abbadon spends people like spare change. Anything from trading/raiding the Imperium to have well equipped forgeworlds inside the Eye of Terror or other Chaos controlled areas such as the Maelstrom. Talos' warband is only left with a strike cruiser and half a company of marines but there's mention of other Night Lord leaders in later books that have Battle Barges and command much larger numbers of well equipped marines. They also seem to be pretty open in accepting recruits from other Legions. The Night Lords series had a Red Corsair space marine be able to join the Night Lords and a Night Lords space marine joining the Black Legion. Mind you most, if not all, of the legions are 'broken' though. Their respective Primarchs might be alive but they are all split into different warbands that operate separately as oppose to under a formal organisation structure.
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Dec 10, 2012 06:33
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And of course, there's the point that the initial legions were many times larger than any chapter now, so even taking enormous casualties during the Heresy could still mean there's 10,000 Night Lords or what-have you. Fabius Bile is the mad scientist analogue who basically creates chaos space marines for pay. What's more Abbadon can afford to lose chaos marines, as basically most chaos marines who want to overthrow the Imperium join his dark crusades, and I imagine any separate groups that accompany him and lose a significant amount of people are folded into the Black Legion. As a unrelated question, and because I can't get on Lexicanum, what's the current world equivalent to obscura, and really all the drugs? I'm reading over Eisenhorn, and I was just wondering. I can't tell if there like opium dens or simply pot bars, or what have you.
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Dec 10, 2012 08:22
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Ardent Communist posted:As a unrelated question, and because I can't get on Lexicanum, what's the current world equivalent to obscura, and really all the drugs? I'm reading over Eisenhorn, and I was just wondering. I can't tell if there like opium dens or simply pot bars, or what have you. There was a list in RT and the RPG materials but from memory, Obscura is suppose to be an opiate. It's highly addictive and shares similar effects with heroin/opium etc so I imagine the Obscura dens are just like Opium dens.
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Dec 10, 2012 08:56
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dongsbot 9000 posted:They reimplant old geneseed or steal new geneseed. Also, Space Marines have fallen to Chaos after the Heresy. I always assumed that favored warriors got their souls put into a new body and sent back out through the Eye of Terror. I figure unless you do a Horus and have your soul Annihilated, you can reincarnate.
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Dec 10, 2012 15:55
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