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telcoM posted:Sounds like you might have wired one side of the fan to the protective ground (earth) contact instead of the neutral prong. This is not correct, but it will make the fan run if there is no GFCI or similar in the socket side of the circuit. When you flip the plug over, this becomes a connection to the protective ground and neutral, which obviously isn't going to make the fan run. Thanks for this, it turned out that the live and neutral sockets of the fan are next to each other, not separated by the ground as I expected them to be, once I learned how to read, it was easy!
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Nov 26, 2012 13:15
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grover posted:What part of the outlet are they reporting getting shocked on? Or is it from stuff plugged into it? They are getting shocked from devices plugged into it.
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Nov 26, 2012 20:09
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I just finished installing a low voltage rail lighting kit that came with an electronic transformer. It works great. A little too well, in fact. And I want to install a dimmer to control it. The kit came with a notice that I can use a dimmer with it, but I need to get a dimmer meant for electronic low voltage. I also found this, which describes the difference between electronic and magnetic low voltage dimmers. The problem I have, is that the switch only has 2 wires going to it, white and black. Both are connected to the switch. I think this is what is going on: pre:
light════╦════════╗
║ ║
║ ▓circuit-breaker
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lightswitch
Basicly I am going to have to do this: pre:light════╗╔════════╗
║║ ║
║║ ▓circuit-breaker
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■
lightswitch
edit: added second diagram and fixed the first one Lowen SoDium fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Nov 27, 2012 |
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Nov 26, 2012 22:34
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Lowen SoDium posted:I think this is what is going on: You just need to get a neutral from anywhere on that circuit down to your light switch. If it's easier to come from the light, then good deal. If it's easier to come from the breaker, fine. It will probably be easiest to cut in a junction box in the attic and run a new piece of cable down the wall into the light switch. p.s.: nice ASCII art. I didn't know that type of thing was possible in forums code 
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Nov 27, 2012 03:30
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:
Thanks. Its pretty easy to do. Just use these bbcodes tags to preserve whitespace and to use a fix space font. [fix] [pre] [/pre] [/fix] And look up the ascii code for the symbol you want. http://www.asciitable.com/ has them numbered. For example, for the ╠ symbol, press and hold the alt key and type 204 on your number pad, then release alt. If you edit or quote a post with those ascii characters, it will convert them to HTML codes which are not easy to read.
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Nov 27, 2012 14:11
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So what's the verdict on my shocking outlet? How are several different people getting shocked through several different devices all plugged into this outlet? I should mention that they are only using 2-prong devices in said outlet.
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Nov 28, 2012 01:42
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kid sinister posted:So what's the verdict on my shocking outlet? How are several different people getting shocked through several different devices all plugged into this outlet? I should mention that they are only using 2-prong devices in said outlet. Regardless, the answer is the same as before: grover posted:In either case, the most likely culprit is a bad ground that's been shorted out, thus energizing the case of anything plugged into it. Another potential culprit is a good ground that's merely providing a path to ground from nearby ungrounded metal that's energized.
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Nov 28, 2012 01:48
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grover posted:That... doesn't make sense. Ungrounded 2-prong devices are double-insulated and it should be impossible for anyone to get shocked by them. Are these 3-prong grounded devices with the ground prong removed? 'Cause that could be your problem. Otherwise, it's most likely a red herring and your problem is unrelated. Nope, no clipped off grounding prongs. I know, it doesn't make sense to me either... I just wanted to make sure that it wasn't something simple that I missed. I suppose I should mention that the 3 people shocked are all women who work together that barely graduated high school...
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Nov 28, 2012 01:53
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kid sinister posted:Nope, no clipped off grounding prongs. I know, it doesn't make sense to me either... I just wanted to make sure that it wasn't something simple that I missed. I suppose I should mention that the 3 people shocked are all women who work together that barely graduated high school... Tell them to stop dragging their rubber-soled shoes when they walk across the carpet.
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Nov 28, 2012 02:12
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I have a GFCI tripping dilemma, and I'm hoping someone here can point me in the right direction. I live in Edmonton, which means I have a block heater installed on my vehicle. For two years, the heater has worked flawlessly, but since the very first day that I plugged it in this year, I've had troubles. Every time I plug the block heater in outdoors, it trips the GFCI, and I can't get it to stop. If I plug the extension cord into a non-GFI outlet indoors, it works properly. (Yes, a typical breaker and a GFCI are measuring two different things) I can confirm that the heater does actually work when plugged in, and does its job. Troubleshooting the problem has been infuriating because I cannot get constant behavior. For two weeks, I could not get the heater to stop tripping the GFCI, and then for two days straight, it worked like a charm. Now all of the sudden, it's tripping again. Things that I've tried in order to fix the problem: Replaced the upstream GFCI socket (the one that was tripping) Plugged the vehicle directly into the GFCI in question Tried three different cords Tried plugging in to another GFCI indoors (still tripped) Replaced the plug head on the block heater cord Tried warming up the vehicle to operating temp, then plugging in (this seemed to work once) Tested all of this against my wife's car (all cords and outlets check out with hers, although the power draw on her pan heater is indeed less than the frost plug style on mine) I also did all the multimeter measurements: 24.5 ohms measured across the cord posts Infinite resistance from both posts to ground Zero resistance from cord ground to block Note: I did two resistance checks from the cord posts to the cord ground. First was measured at "200," which yielded infinite. I also did the same test at 2000k: when I do that, the reading starts out at 100, and then slowly climbs upward the longer I hold the connection, into 1000+. In the same vein, I did two checks from the cord ground to the block. At 200, it measures 0 immediately. When set to 2000k, the reading spikes to around 600, and then drops down to 0 after a period of a second. After replacing all of this without success, I figured it was the heater itself, and brought it in to the dealership. However, after testing it themselves, they claim that the block heater and cord are both in 100% working order; they have no idea why the GFCI trips, and claim to have never seen this before. I'm running out of options. The dealership said that I should just install a non-GFI outlet outside, but I don't feel comfortable doing that. 1) No electrician would ever do it, and 2) I couldn't forgive myself if someone got hurt from doing such a thing. The only other two things that I can think of is that it's the block heater cord, or the element itself is developing an internal problem and leaking amps into the antifreeze. This would be contrary to the dealership's diagnostics, but I pretty much trust them as far as I can throw them. Help me out here. Can an electrical cord be broken just enough to allow amps to wander, even if the ohms reading checks out? Can the female end of a cord cause issues that testing the male end of the cord would not reveal? Can there be some other culprit that I simply have not uncovered?
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Nov 28, 2012 09:51
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kid sinister posted:Nope, no clipped off grounding prongs. I know, it doesn't make sense to me either... I just wanted to make sure that it wasn't something simple that I missed. I suppose I should mention that the 3 people shocked are all women who work together that barely graduated high school... Or have them explain to you how to touch the devices to get shocked, if it's an electrical problem it should be readily reproducible. Be sure to get details like if it's touching two devices at the same time or a water pipe or whatever. Hazed_blue: I had a hard time understanding exactly what you measured, could you rephrase it? Also the proper test equipment for grounding leaks is a megger, it produces about 500V between the phase wires and ground, and looks for any current flow. It sounds like it's probably your car that's the problem since you replaced everything else. longview fucked around with this message at 10:47 on Nov 28, 2012 |
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Nov 28, 2012 10:39
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Hazed_blue posted:I have a GFCI tripping dilemma, and I'm hoping someone here can point me in the right direction. Another option is to get an isolation transformer; plug it into your GFCI, and your car into it. It will be legal and safe; they're actually used a lot in europe in lieu of GFCIs. grover fucked around with this message at 11:47 on Nov 28, 2012 |
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Nov 28, 2012 11:42
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longview posted:Hazed_blue: I had a hard time understanding exactly what you measured, could you rephrase it? Measuring the block heater cord First test: Measured ohms from one prong of the cord head to the other prong (hot and white). Reading is 24.5 ohms, within spec. Second test: Measured ohms from one prong of the cord head to the ground of the cord head. When set to the "200" scale, the reading is infinite. When the scale is set to "2000k," the resistance starts out at 100, and then I see it slowly build upward. It reaches 1000 after about 8 seconds. Third test: Measured ohms from the ground of the heater cord to the engine block. When set to the "200" scale, the reading is 0 When the scale is set to "2000k," the resistance starts out at 600, and then I see it crawl downward. It reaches 0 after about 3 seconds. The fact that the ground tests don't go immediately to infinite/0 seems fishy to me, but I don't know enough about this to make such a call.
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Nov 28, 2012 20:59
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Normally the resistance reading going up like that indicates a capacitor in series with the meter. I'm not too familiar with measuring grounding faults but if you know an electrician he'll probably have access to an insulation tester and can do a quick test. If there's capacitive coupling between the phase wires and grounding then that could leak current, tripping the GFCI... It wouldn't read on a normal meter.
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Nov 29, 2012 20:51
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My electric company sent me a retardedly high bill today, based on an estimated reading. In the process of calling in the actual reading, I find that the meter is stuck, and hasn't moved since the last physical reading in mid October. The power company have put a hold on the bill until they send someone to check it out, and possibly replace the meter. If they replace it, what are they likely to bill me for the time the meter wasn't running? Can they estimate it from last year, or do they have to write it off, seeing it is their faulty meter? I ask about estimates because I just bought the place, and prior to the meter sticking we we're on average using 1/3rd the power of the prior occupants, but the company is estimating on last years usage, not our history.
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Nov 30, 2012 01:35
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I just had a house built and we're looking to finish the 2nd floor(only thing not done are 3 bedrooms and 1 bathroom. The electrical is already roughed in. I got a quote from 1 electrician for 3500 dollars and 500 dollars in fixtures to finish the rooms. This seems a bit high as the lines are already run in the ceiling and there are even all the switch boxes(wired) and fan/light box already wired. All they need to do is run the wires to the plug boxes and put the plugs/switches in. Is there any way that this should cost 3500 dollars? I also have a coax and ethernet bundles of cables sitting in the attic just waiting to be put in.
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Nov 30, 2012 03:52
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Dobermaniac posted:I just had a house built and we're looking to finish the 2nd floor(only thing not done are 3 bedrooms and 1 bathroom. The electrical is already roughed in. I got a quote from 1 electrician for 3500 dollars and 500 dollars in fixtures to finish the rooms. This seems a bit high as the lines are already run in the ceiling and there are even all the switch boxes(wired) and fan/light box already wired. All they need to do is run the wires to the plug boxes and put the plugs/switches in. Is there any way that this should cost 3500 dollars? I also have a coax and ethernet bundles of cables sitting in the attic just waiting to be put in. Is the drywall already up?
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Nov 30, 2012 21:10
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No drywall up at all. Just studs. I had my contractor come in and say that there wasn't any way it's 3500 dollars. He said the only things they have left to do is run the wire to plugs from the coiled up wire in the attic and set the plugs/switches/fixtures.
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Dec 1, 2012 01:18
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Dobermaniac posted:No drywall up at all. Just studs. I had my contractor come in and say that there wasn't any way it's 3500 dollars. He said the only things they have left to do is run the wire to plugs from the coiled up wire in the attic and set the plugs/switches/fixtures. Probably a little high but he probably gave you a "worst case scenario". Any contractor worth his salt is going to have to not only finish the work but go through all that has been done already. Some guys tend to actually bid higher on jobs like this higher than normal because they will be the ones liable for not only their work but the work that was already done on the project; they'll have to double-check anything that's already been done.
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Dec 1, 2012 11:28
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Well they are the ones who did the original work, not 2 months ago so I don't think there would be too much for them to backtrack and go through. I'm all for paying someone what they're due. My contractor spoke with the electrician and he didn't remember it was roughed in, so I should be getting back a better quote.
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Dec 1, 2012 13:23
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I'm having a mind melter of an electrical problem on something that was supposed to be easy... I was attempting to switch out two tan 3 way switches with two white ones. I've done this to pretty much every other receptacle and switch in the house. I just wire em up exactly how they are wired in originally. I have my rocking highschool electrical course under my belt which was pretty much doing just that. There are two 3-way switches that controlled the top plug in two receptacles behind the bed for I'm assuming lamps or something. We never used them, I figured out what the switches do when I bought the house, plugged my alarmclock and book lights into the bottoms ones and carried on with life. Wired em up with the same wire that was originally going to the common black screw on each switch. Then I tried out all four plugs... I have one of those receptacle testers and a hot finder. All four plugs are always on... no matter the switches. I'm thinking... ok, well maybe the colours are inconsistent? There are three wires in each box, white red and black. Black was hooked to common, white and red to the travelers... Made sense enough. I disconnected all 3 wires on each switch, flipped the breaker on, and used the voltage tester... It shows all three wires as hot, on both switches (with none of the 6 wires hooked to anything). All four plugs show as hot, and wired correctly with the little checker.  No sense. What the hell is going on.
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Dec 5, 2012 01:16
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Rodney Chops posted:I'm having a mind melter of an electrical problem on something that was supposed to be easy... I'm not clear on this, but did you replace the receptacles, also? If so, did you break off the little metal tab between the top and bottom screws to isolate them on the sides of the receptacles?
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Dec 5, 2012 02:17
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insanity74 posted:I'm not clear on this, but did you replace the receptacles, also? If so, did you break off the little metal tab between the top and bottom screws to isolate them on the sides of the receptacles? I did replace the receptacles with new brand new ones, but I never broke anything off any of them. Unless there is a specific type of of receptacle I was supposed to get for this purpose. I bought the generic bulk back of standard issue 85cent ones. I will take the plates off and check to make sure they are not connected. I'll snap some pictures if I see anything weird... But regardless of how i hooked them up, should the circuit not be open? What black magic is feeding power to these plugs now...
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Dec 5, 2012 02:26
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Rodney Chops posted:I did replace the receptacles with new brand new ones, but I never broke anything off any of them. Unless there is a specific type of of receptacle I was supposed to get for this purpose. I bought the generic bulk back of standard issue 85cent ones.
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Dec 5, 2012 02:38
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grover posted:
Right you guys are. I have have been tabbed. Now I am un-tabbed. Things are obeying the laws of physics again. Thanks! I would have never figured that out.
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Dec 5, 2012 05:44
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Have a coworker with an odd electrical issue. Has Christmas lights plugged into circuit a and tv plugged into circuit b. With lights plugged in he will get a trip on his breaker in the living room with the tv. Also possibly related his hdmi port connected to his sat box was fried the first time this happened this year. Said same thing happened last year but lights were in livingroom. Lights are ge led lights they have not been replaced. Doesn't make sense to me, but the correlation is there as it only started when lights were plugged in, and similar issues last year
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Dec 6, 2012 16:57
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tater_salad posted:Have a coworker with an odd electrical issue.
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Dec 7, 2012 02:57
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tater_salad posted:Have a coworker with an odd electrical issue. It's possible (empasis on possible) that the two circuits share a neutral which is poorly connected in the panel.
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Dec 7, 2012 12:40
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That was my thought, the house is 3years old so I'm not sure how possible it is unless the builder cut corners. Any way to test without a really long lead on a continuity tester? I already told him to toss the lights.
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Dec 7, 2012 13:25
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If the house is only 3 years old, then the outside circuit for the lights should have a GFCI and the living room circuit should have an AFCI. How about this: are there any boxes that share both of those circuits?
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Dec 7, 2012 23:02
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kid sinister posted:and the living room circuit should have an AFCI. Only bedrooms need AFCIs iirc.
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Dec 8, 2012 03:36
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Pufflekins posted:Only bedrooms need AFCIs iirc.
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Dec 8, 2012 04:11
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yep - basically every "living space" is what I understood. Even including lighting circuits. I've used the non AFCI breakers that came with my breaker panel to get things up and running and tested in some cases, but always replace them with AFCI as soon as I possibly can. I basically bought my local Home Depot's entire stock of 20A AFCI breakers for my panel type a few months ago and it took them a while to restock.
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Dec 8, 2012 05:06
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grover posted:This has changed with the latest code- they're required in nearly the whole house now. Well, nearly everywhere GFCIs aren't. kastein posted:yep - basically every "living space" is what I understood. Even including lighting circuits. Ouch. How much did that set you back?
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Dec 8, 2012 05:09
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I think I dropped around 100-150 or so, iirc. They run $30/ea or so, and I know I'll be using a lot - they had a whole bunch of repackaged ones on the shelf at like a 50% discount so I jumped on every one of those I could find as well as a few of the unopened ones. Installed/tested the repackaged ones first, obviously.
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Dec 8, 2012 05:14
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Do afci breakers have a test button? The outside lights are on a different circuit, these lights are inside Honestly I wonder if it was just a correlation of events, I don't know that the breaker flipped again after the one time in which his tv /sat box had an issue
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Dec 8, 2012 07:16
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I have a question about a garage outlet installation. I recently bought a house, and am discovering the joys of fixing up the previous owners' fuckups. In the garage, the previous owner has romex breaking out of the wall by sandwiching it between the stud and drywall. It then goes underneath a windowsill and is secured there with some expanding foam insulation. It then goes back into the wall, and terminates in an outlet, which just for fun, he decided to reverse the hot and neutral. Obviously this whole thing is a clusterfuck, but my end goal is to properly run power in the garage, including a new outlet for a garage door opener. The last outlet in the run will be GFCI protected as it will likely be used for outdoor Christmas lights and the like. My original plan was to run EMT conduit outside the wall and use surface mount boxes. While I was at the store today however, I saw there was metal armored conductors, and wondered if that would be more appropriate for this type of installation. Also, do I need to GFCI protect all outlets on that run? Basic googling seems to indicate that garage outlets should be GFCI protected, but I'm concerned a garage door would cause accidental trips. Is it possible/advisable to pigtail off to each outlet I wish to GFCI protect, leaving a garage door opener outlet without GFCI protection? Edit: this is in Washington state if anyone can add some code insights. SuicidalSmurf fucked around with this message at 08:25 on Dec 8, 2012 |
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Dec 8, 2012 08:13
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SuicidalSmurf posted:I have a question about a garage outlet installation. I recently bought a house, and am discovering the joys of fixing up the previous owners' fuckups. In the garage, the previous owner has romex breaking out of the wall by sandwiching it between the stud and drywall. It then goes underneath a windowsill and is secured there with some expanding foam insulation. It then goes back into the wall, and terminates in an outlet, which just for fun, he decided to reverse the hot and neutral. What you can do is put a GFCI outlet in the first box, and run an extra red conductor (#12-3), with the black wire GFCI protected through the run, and the red wire not. Or, you can just run the garage door opener off the GFCI outlet, which really isn't that big a deal. Surface-mounted EMT is fine for inside a garage; it's cheap and easy. You can fish romex inside the walls, too. Surface-mount rigid metal conduit and IMC are acceptable, too, but harder to work with and not necessary. Note that you won't want to run romex through EMT; you can if you want, but it's easier to pull individual THHN wires, which you can get in spools at the big-box. The EMT itself is considered a ground wire for code purposes if installed and grounded/bonded right, but it's best to pull a green ground wire as well. You can splice the romex to the THHN in the first box with wirenuts, and go THHN from there. Metal clad (the flexible armored stuff you're talking about) is generally OK, too, but I think you'll be happier with EMT. If you hired a pro, he would almost certainly use EMT with THHN for this. grover fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Dec 8, 2012 |
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Dec 8, 2012 17:15
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grover posted:All garage receptacles are required to be GFCI protected, with exceptions for dedicated outlets, like for garage door openers and freezers. The dedicated outlets need to be clearly labeled and/or placed where it's unambigious. You're technically supposed to use special single receptacles (vice duplex), but the inspector isn't going to bust your rear end using a duplex on the ceiling. i don't have my code book on me but i thought this changed with the latest update? and now EVERYTHING except fire and alarm systems were required to be GFI protected. i know in the part of washington state i'm in the inspectors are requiring all plugs, including dedicated ones, to have gfi protection. we always just run the garage door opener off the load side of the gfi and have never had any problems.
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Dec 8, 2012 20:26
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Speaking of fire alarms. Should fire alarms be on an AFCI circuit? My opinion is that they shouldn't be, since I want them getting power no matter what, but I'd like a pro answer instead of my intuition on this for all the obvious reasons.
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Dec 8, 2012 20:36
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