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I think "sweep" could be understood as simply improving your position- if you're trying to improve your position, and still taking elbows and punches, you've probably done about as much as you can do. If you're taking elbows and punches while desperately trying to submit a guy from a position where it makes no sense to submit them, you're dumb*. * just like that relson quote
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Nov 20, 2012 19:58
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I dunno, I've always felt like there was an unspoken priority list of ways to win while grappling: Above all, I want to incapacitate someone with a throw. If that's not gonna work I'll go for a choke. If not a choke, then a joint attack, and if not a joint attack then I'll settle for a pin, and if that's not gonna work then I'm looking to disengage and leave because I'm out of options. The reason the throw is first priority is because it leaves me standing and mobile. It's like a one-punch KO. I'm not sure about the order of the rest of them- BJJ seems to equate chokes and joint locks while forgetting about pins entirely, Judo seems to prefer to pin first and then sub when the opponent gives them a choke or joint lock while escaping (but only certain subs are fair game), etc. CivilDisobedience fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Nov 20, 2012 |
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Nov 20, 2012 21:00
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the least weasel posted:As opposed to the guy shoved against the cage desperately trying to sweep while taking thousands of elbows and punches? Not saying I agree with Generic Gracie #5273 but I'm not sure what you're arguing BJJ doesn't work. Just stand and bang.
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Nov 20, 2012 21:02
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A lot of times people fall in love with submissions and throw everything else out the window but you have a much higher chance to get a submission and avoid damage yourself if you can get on top and control the other guy. So if you're getting pounded in a corner, blindly throwing up subs is probably not the best choice. Pulling guard and looking for a sub as option #1 is a very specialized tactic for bjj tournaments and it shows because when people apply it elsewhere it goes very poorly. Watch those old UFCs, or the really old Vale Tudo stuff: the Bjj guys were looking for takedowns first, even if they weren't as sophisticated as wrestling/Judo. Here is Ryan Hall making the point really well, albeit a little exaggerated: http://www.lockflow.com/ryan-hall-everything-has-changed Bohemian Nights posted:I think "sweep" could be understood as simply improving your position- if you're trying to improve your position, and still taking elbows and punches, you've probably done about as much as you can do. Basically this. Xguard86 fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Nov 20, 2012 |
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Nov 20, 2012 21:32
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It's interesting just how antithetical a lot of that Gracie bullshit is to the modern understanding of grappling and MMA. Besides the technical side of them using subs from full guard instead of improving position, that never tap attitude is terrible. I'm glad that Helio Gracie finally met somebody crazy enough to break his bones multiple times just to prove a point.
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Nov 20, 2012 22:21
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I wrote a bunch of words, but deleted them to say this: If you attempt to get a better position and fail, you will likely take less damage than if you attempt a sub from your back and fail. This is due to a number of factors, but one is that your head is more protected in many sweep positions and your opponent has to stop punching you to maintain their base. Additionally, a sub from your back is more likely to fail than trying to sweep or stand up.
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Nov 20, 2012 23:15
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Fat Twitter Man posted:It's interesting just how antithetical a lot of that Gracie bullshit is to the modern understanding of grappling and MMA. Besides the technical side of them using subs from full guard instead of improving position Subs from full guard instead of improving position isn't really a Gracie thing, Relson is just a cranky old man who doesn't like sport bjj instructionals.
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Nov 20, 2012 23:20
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Has a wrist lock even been used successfully in high level MMA? I have no memory of it ever happening.
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Nov 20, 2012 23:21
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origami posted:Has a wrist lock even been used successfully in high level MMA? I have no memory of it ever happening. Royce Gracie vs Akebono. I wouldn't call that "high level", though
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Nov 20, 2012 23:27
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origami posted:Has a wrist lock even been used successfully in high level MMA? I have no memory of it ever happening. with tape and gloves, the wrist isn't going to bend. fatherdog posted:Subs from full guard instead of improving position isn't really a Gracie thing, Relson is just a cranky old man who doesn't like sport bjj instructionals. Yes, pretty much every gracie in action video ends with them taking face down back mount and getting a RNC or Rickson arm baring from mount. The more old school the guy is, the more likely he's going to be all about pressure from the top. I don't know wtf is up with that Relson quote, maybe its out of context.
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Nov 20, 2012 23:30
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fatherdog posted:Subs from full guard instead of improving position isn't really a Gracie thing, Relson is just a cranky old man who doesn't like sport bjj instructionals. I'm assuming Relson comes from the older more japanesish style of BJJ that was developed for taking on less knowledgeable grapplers as a means of self defense / competition than the pure BJJ vs BJJ stuff. origami posted:Has a wrist lock even been used successfully in high level MMA? I have no memory of it ever happening. The closest you'll ever see or I've ever seen was a standing arm bar that broke a dude's arm by Shinya Aoki in what was an armbar I've seen taught in Japanese Jits. The problem with wrist locks in MMA is that like was said with the tape and gloves you can't get them to the right points of extension the right angles to cause the compliance and pain for a submission. There's very little differences in the movement, hand placement and angles in wristlocks from things like Hapkido and Japanese Jits that simply can't be applied when someone's wearing strapping and gloves. BlindSite fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Nov 21, 2012 |
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Nov 21, 2012 05:22
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Wrist locks aren't really used best as subs imo, they're more like control positions. I use them occasionally but mostly to move my opponents into place for a submission.
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Nov 21, 2012 05:29
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CivilDisobedience posted:Wrist locks aren't really used best as subs imo, they're more like control positions. I use them occasionally but mostly to move my opponents into place for a submission. Right, exactly. I mostly use them to break grips. I hadn't thought about the fact that the actual gloves would get in the way.
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Nov 21, 2012 07:11
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Nifft posted:Freestyle! Where the bigger your slam (amplitude) the more points you get but you can't spike. The criteria here is your partner's hips going over your head and them landing in danger (back facing towards the mat). You instantly win the round if this happens. That's Freestyle and Greco.
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Nov 21, 2012 10:03
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I guess Relson's illustrious MMA record speaks for itself.CivilDisobedience posted:BJJ seems to equate chokes and joint locks while forgetting about pins entirely, Judo seems to prefer to pin first and then sub when the opponent gives them a choke or joint lock while escaping (but only certain subs are fair game), etc. You can't win a BJJ match with a 'pin' (unless you're up on points and time is running out), so you take the points and then work for a submission. In Judo you can win a match by pinning your opponent for 25 seconds, so why risk losing the dominant position by attempting a submission when all you have to do is flatten them out and sit tight?
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Nov 21, 2012 12:54
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Grappling disciplines design their rulesets, especially their win conditions, to reflect their default strategies, not the other way around. So I think we're saying the same thing when you say "You can't win a BJJ match with a pin" and I say "BJJ forgets about pins as win conditions," right? Their scoring in BJJ only reflects the fact that you've got top position and you're making the opponent support your weight. In Judo, pins are recognized as having the potential to incapacitate through maintained diaphragm pressure, but it's nearly impossible to keep up the tension needed to make that work against a squirming opponent (especially if they see it coming and hold their breath), so generally pins are used as a way to force someone to give up a strong defensive position and leave themselves vulnerable to a sub in an effort to get your weight off their chest. Their scoring reflects the fact that they're initially harmless and then become more dangerous the longer they are sustained, eventually gaining the power to submit. So I guess the short answer to your question is that people will almost always squirm hard enough to leave you choosing between transitioning to a different pin and grabbing a sub, and since those are both risky ventures you might as well take the latter option, especially when it can flow smoothly back into a pin if necessary. CivilDisobedience fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Nov 21, 2012 |
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Nov 21, 2012 14:41
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actually in judo a pin is meant to simulate drawing your judo knife and murdering a guy. someone decided that 25 seconds is the time it takes to do this.
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Nov 21, 2012 17:02
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Haha yeah I've heard that one too, something about how judo was designed for use by groups of samurais and they'd pin you so another guy could stab you. I wouldn't put much stock in that explanation 
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Nov 21, 2012 21:58
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CivilDisobedience posted:Haha yeah I've heard that one too, something about how judo was designed for use by groups of samurais and they'd pin you so another guy could stab you. I wouldn't put much stock in that explanation Yeah me neither. It just shows dominance. Initially it was 35 seconds for the win, but data showed that people almost never got out after 25 seconds so they reduced the amount of time. If you can hold someone for 25 second, you can probably hold him for a minute or more.
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Nov 21, 2012 23:21
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I admit though that I'm liking the idea of a "judo knife"
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Nov 21, 2012 23:23
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everyone puts one of these in their belt and has to mime stabbing motions to secure the pin
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Nov 22, 2012 00:20
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I kinda like the idea of making judo a team sport and letting people do the pin&stab to take out other players...
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Nov 22, 2012 01:56
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CivilDisobedience posted:I kinda like the idea of making judo a team sport and letting people do the pin&stab to take out other players... we do that sometimes at my club. Well no stabbing, but group games as part of the warm-up that includes pin and stuff. Last class we played tag team pin-only ground randoris. poo poo was a lot of fun and really absurd at times. It could also get out of hand at times because we somehow care more about winning those stupid games than we do randoris where we (mostly) accept defeat and so bet it let's roll again. But losing a tag team match? Noooo way! It's fun occasionally for a change of pace to finish the warm-up. I think judo is the only place I ever really "play" anymore. I'm not sure if that's a bad thing or a good thing. \/\/ Grappling is the best. I'm sure stikers are all serious all the time \/\/ KingColliwog fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Nov 22, 2012 |
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Nov 22, 2012 04:00
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Last night my BJJ coach opened the class by informing us he had some "next level poo poo" planned. Then we had a cartwheel competition.
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Nov 22, 2012 04:05
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KingColliwog posted:I think judo is the only place I ever really "play" anymore. I'm not sure if that's a bad thing or a good thing. Wrestling is some of the best play there is. Beats the poo poo out of ultimate frisbee.
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Nov 22, 2012 04:10
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:Last night my BJJ coach opened the class by informing us he had some "next level poo poo" planned. Then we had a cartwheel competition. Hahahahaha.
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Nov 22, 2012 12:54
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we did 2 on 1 bjj once. Highlight was one guy grabbing someone in a triangle and then threatening to tap him if the other guy didn't back off and get him a fueled plane in 20 minutes.
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Nov 22, 2012 18:15
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:Last night my BJJ coach opened the class by informing us he had some "next level poo poo" planned. Then we had a cartwheel competition. Yes! Yes! Yes! That's how you win a cartwheel competition. Positive thinking.
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Nov 22, 2012 18:19
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Nov 22, 2012 18:20
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http://www.intermatwrestle.com/rankings/college/ Pre-Season NCAA rankings, 165 lbs is just a once in a lifetime type setup in any weight class, and Kyle Dake (3 time NCAA champion) already beat David Taylor (1 career loss and current Hodge Trophy recipient) in double overtime: http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/11/5/3587922/biggest-college-wrestling-match-maybe-ever-this-weekend-kyle-dake-vs http://www.intermatwrestle.com/articles/10709 184, and 197 are also very competitive weight classes. Should be a fun year.
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Nov 29, 2012 18:47
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Anyone interested in a Shoyoroll Golden State in A3? It was part of my rotation for about six months butI haven't used it in about a year and it should be rolled in instead of hanging in my closet. Used obviously, but definitely still tons of life in it and hard as hell to find. PM me if interested.
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Dec 2, 2012 22:05
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Competed in my first tournament on Saturday! Sambo guy in a BJJ tournament, meaning no leglocks or reaping which kind of sucked. Went 2-2 (with a DQ) in gi and 2-1 in no-gi, taking bronze in my division in no-gi. All of my matches are here, let me know what you think. And yes I know that my bottom game needs work -- most of the time it involves giving my back and going for kneebars and toeholds, which wasn't allowed so I was a little lost. Also, don't watch the first gi match, it's pretty bad. The most entertaining matches are probably gi match 3 for the from-behind win, and no-gi match 1 for throws and match 3 for the sub: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7nhGrhECdo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY-MfEmyOyM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXwp-mITDsE If you only watch one, watch the last one. I like that one. Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Dec 10, 2012 |
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Dec 10, 2012 15:31
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^Hahah dude hell yeah! That just made my day. I was especially enjoying the multiple instances of kesa considering that lots of people think there's no value to it in nogi. A couple points on throwing in nogi- you look like you're trying to catch them by surprise with a throw as they move in to secure a grip on your neck, but that's really a double-edged sword because it means you're scrambling to grip right before the throw yourself, and you're telegraphing your plan from the start. Smarter fighters are going to recognize that you don't want them to grip 'until you're ready' and just shoot on you like the guy in vid3 (hopefully with a little more setup/commitment), but unlike your opponent in vid3, they'll actually be able to do stuff after they sit out of your sprawl and that won't be good. ([Shot>Sit out>Single Leg grab>Deep underhook>Stand up] is a common sequence in my experience and that deep UH will just destroy you if they can use it to catch you coming up) My point: You can give opponents the grips they want, then throw them anyway! Just like in gi grappling you just have to see what grip they want and then make them over-reach for it. Give up that neck grip and then posture up right as they try to clamp down on it to pull their arm straight and turn it into your advantage. This will let you get more lift and you'll need to rely less on rotational force to break their balance, meaning more airtime, bigger impacts and better control. Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DYc4OQx3Xk&t=114s You can do stuff like this vs wrist grips into tai otoshi etc too, but it's super hard so gently caress that. E: Also I was really expecting you to take a crucifix off his flubbed sit out attempt in vid3. CivilDisobedience fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Dec 10, 2012 |
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Dec 10, 2012 21:28
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CivilDisobedience posted:^Hahah dude hell yeah! That just made my day. I was especially enjoying the multiple instances of kesa considering that lots of people think there's no value to it in nogi. It's funny you say that, my strategy in general is actually not to go for throws that quickly. In that first no-gi match the guy just got really aggressive and the hip toss was there, so I went for it. I like underhooks and snapdowns, and usually I try to frustrate my opponent into shooting since I have a good sprawl and keep my hands low -- in the third match what happened was basically exactly what I wanted to happen. I train with a lot of former college wrestlers so shots and sit-outs are something I can deal with better than the average BJJ guy. In the second match I got double overhooks, where I'm not super comfortable, and panicked, going for a trip instead of working for better clinch position. Definitely needed more patience there. And yeah, scarf position owns bones. I get that armbar all the time in training and it was really satisfying to get it in the medal match of a tourney. If it wasn't a BJJ tournament I'd be going reverse scarf and attacking legs a lot more too.
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Dec 10, 2012 22:16
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Oh yeah that arm bar was a thing of beauty! I know how hard it is to finish those in nogi with the slippage potential too
CivilDisobedience fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Dec 10, 2012 |
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Dec 10, 2012 23:51
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I never saw a "sit out" before so I googled it and... I don't think I get it? How does it not always end like it did in that video? It seems like unless you manage to surprise your opponent you'll just get caught in gesa or some sort of side control? I have no doubt that it works since it seems like it's used a lot in wrestling, but I don't get why it works I guess. Each time the dude did it in that third video I was thinking "why is he giving a free pin?" Also, nice videos and nice armbar. That's a tough one to finish. edit : good job on listening to your coach in that 1st video! KingColliwog fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Dec 11, 2012 |
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Dec 11, 2012 01:08
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Think about it like a fireman's carry (uh sorta). You can see Mechafunkzilla's opponent's first sit out attempt actually works, and M is forced to post with his right arm for a second (~0:20 vid3), that's the small window of opportunity where the opponent's control over your torso is loose and you can swing past his other arm and around his leg to turn it around on him. If he keeps a good base and moves with you like M does, follow up with a single leg attempt and then do the same thing again to turn the corner and take his back, or at least get side to side with an underhook. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3clyVNfjXg&t=403s) E: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t3dG_8-j54 This might provide some good insight, it's something like the elbow push Marcelo talks about And if they hold on too tight to post you'll flip them over and land on them with reverse kesa CivilDisobedience fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Dec 11, 2012 |
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Dec 11, 2012 01:56
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Well usually when you sit out you'll be doing it a lot faster than that guy in the 3rd match did. I'm guessing Mecha's opponent wasn't a wrestler (or had terrible conditioning, or both) because that move looked so slow and lumbering. Going from a sit out to a single leg is pretty common.
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Dec 11, 2012 01:57
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thanks guys, that roy dean video in particular helped me understand what was going on better. I guess this is a no-gi thing only?
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Dec 11, 2012 02:35
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No way! At least it was first taught to me in Judo as an attack from turtle, often to be followed by an armpit armlock. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtBCRQBMjg0 CivilDisobedience fucked around with this message at 03:03 on Dec 11, 2012 |
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Dec 11, 2012 02:38
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