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lazer_chicken posted:Yeah I guess they can't really tow but I don't see how an SUV is any better at moving "dirty" things than a CUV. They both have hatches with cargo areas in the back. What's the difference? For really really dirty poo poo only a truck is going to work. Well, a truck or a cargo trailer. Not that most SUV owners even own a trailer hitch, let alone tow trailers full of manure or something, of course, but then again most SUV owners don't use their SUVs for anything other than commuting. Most people I know who do use an SUV in ways a car wouldn't work for either do a lot of soft-roading/off-roading, and/or they tow stuff like boats, campers, motorcycles, race cars, etc. I suppose there's nothing stopping you from putting a hitch on a regular car or CUV for a lot of that stuff, since it's not too heavy. Though there could be concerns regarding the strain on the running gear, since trucks tend to be built more heavily. Maybe not as much on modern cars, though? But yeah, your argument's perfectly reasonable, especially since wagon-body trucks have had carpeting in the back for many years, which kind of eliminates one of the primary differentiating factors of trucks versus cars. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Dec 10, 2012 |
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Dec 10, 2012 17:42
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grover posted:It's a shame International Harvester collapsed right before the SUV boom took off; chances are good they'd have made some SUVs that even AI would love.
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Dec 10, 2012 18:31
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Cream_Filling posted:I suppose there's nothing stopping you from putting a hitch on a regular car or CUV for a lot of that stuff, since it's not too heavy. Though there could be concerns regarding the strain on the running gear, since trucks tend to be built more heavily. Maybe not as much on modern cars, though?
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Dec 10, 2012 18:50
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NathanScottPhillips posted:Every tiny diesel hatchback in Europe has a tow hitch on it. Americans are just vain and want something big with shiny wheels. It's unfortunately not just vanity, most things that aren't trucks here have half of the legal towing limit that they do in Europe or even Canada. I'm not completely sure why, but it could be related to most small trailers here being unbraked, or higher speed limits or something. Mechanically identical cars can tow different amounts in the US, Europe, Canada, and Australia because of differences in liability laws.
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Dec 10, 2012 18:58
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NathanScottPhillips posted:Every tiny diesel hatchback in Europe has a tow hitch on it. Americans are just vain and want something big with shiny wheels. Big shiney wheels, and you know, like...the wheelbase, braking, and the correct rear suspension geometry to tow a 10,000 pound boat but loll you already know that right We also like for it to give us a false sense of security, and a higher viewpoint so that we dont have to reach up at the fast food drive-thru
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Dec 10, 2012 19:03
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Wonderllama posted:Big shiney wheels, and you know, like...the wheelbase, braking, and the correct rear suspension geometry to tow a 10,000 pound boat but loll you already know that right You can do that with a $5k used truck and have an efficient car for your DD if you were really interested in utility. It's estimated that 5% of American SUVs ever go off-road, it's probably similar for towing boats. quote:We also like for it to give us a false sense of security, and a higher viewpoint so that we dont have to reach up at the fast food drive-thru NathanScottPhillips fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Dec 10, 2012 |
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Dec 10, 2012 19:55
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NathanScottPhillips posted:It's estimated that 5% of American SUVs ever go off-road, it's probably similar for towing boats. The situation is evolving only very slowly, and mostly thanks to fuel economy worries. I don't see any sort of education program working to change the desire for SUVs.
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Dec 10, 2012 20:01
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NathanScottPhillips posted:Every tiny diesel hatchback in Europe has a tow hitch on it. Americans are just vain and want something big with shiny wheels. They also only allowed tow a maximum of 8-900kg and it must be a braked trailer at that weight. So it's mostly for small 2-300kg trailers, so you can take your garbage to the You'll need a towing endorsement for anything heavier than 750kg. For anything bigger, you're moving into medium/large sedan territory. A Citroën C5 diesel (a good choice because of the active self-leveling suspension) will tow around a 1800kg braked trailer happily. Need to tow something bigger? You'll need to move into SUV territory, and then you're basically admitting to being a closet American  kimbo305 posted:The situation is evolving only very slowly, and mostly thanks to fuel economy worries. I don't see any sort of education program working to change the desire for SUVs. I think it's just an ingrained part of American culture. Bigger is better, so a bigger car must automatically be better.
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Dec 10, 2012 20:07
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Hybrid SUVs are peak Americanism. Publicly displayed desire for good, but unable to understand high school physics.
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Dec 10, 2012 20:12
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I remember going on family trips towing a boat through the mountains in a ~'93 Buick LeSabre with a towing package. Do normal sedans even come with those sort of packages from the factory anymore or do people who need to tow a boat just assume cars are suddenly incapable of such feats?
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Dec 10, 2012 20:28
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On a related note, boats get pretty bad fuel economy too, SO gently caress EM!
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Dec 10, 2012 20:35
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NathanScottPhillips posted:You can do that with a $5k used truck and have an efficient car for your DD if you were really interested in utility. Storage issues aside, the insurance costs will probably make this a far worse proposition.
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Dec 10, 2012 20:42
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Weinertron posted:It's unfortunately not just vanity, most things that aren't trucks here have half of the legal towing limit that they do in Europe or even Canada. I'm not completely sure why, but it could be related to most small trailers here being unbraked, or higher speed limits or something. Well, tow ratings are sort of a black art, anyway. A lot of it also probably has to do with different driving conditions and expectations. For instance, in general, the US ratings are focused on highway-speed cruising performance, while in Europe, the tow ratings are based on an expectation of low speed driving (often limited by law to <50 mph or similar) on a smaller range of less steep or otherwise less demanding roads and conditions. Also, the hitch mounting system in Europe is different due to laws on bumpers, etc.. You also have to look at maximum hitch weights versus total max trailer weight, since the former is often really rated low in Europe compared to the US and more likely to be the restrictive factor. As an example, here's a news article summarizing the SAE's Tow Ratings practice guidelines: http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0912_sae_tow_ratings_finally_pass_sniff_test/viewall.html quote:There are five engineering characteristics that strongly influence any tow vehicle's performance: No way I'd want to encourage already overweight small cars to be poking along the highway carrying loads they can barely accelerate with.
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Dec 10, 2012 21:07
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Cream_Filling posted:No way I'd want to encourage already overweight small cars to be poking along the highway carrying loads they can barely accelerate with. Wow, color me educated. That's one hell of a torture test, especially being able to do stop and go up a 12% grade and the Nevada dam climbing.
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Dec 10, 2012 21:12
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Wonderllama posted:On a related note, boats get pretty bad fuel economy too, SO gently caress EM! Cream_Filling posted:Storage issues aside, the insurance costs will probably make this a far worse proposition. In regards to US vs Europe tow ratings: US trucks don't have to have the same safety ratings as cars and if they're diesel they are exempt from emissions. Pretty sure this has nothing to do with safety or the environment and is purely to sell more trucks. Cream_Filling posted:No way I'd want to encourage already overweight small cars to be poking along the highway carrying loads they can barely accelerate with. NathanScottPhillips fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Dec 10, 2012 |
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Dec 10, 2012 22:13
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NathanScottPhillips posted:Lol no one is talking about towing a boat with a Corolla. However why not tow a boat with a big V6 or V8 sedan like davebo used to do with his family? probably because the towing rating for a 1993 Buick Regal is most likely south of 3500 pounds, and if you get into an accident towing more than that, you can be held liable? Anyway, I think you're preaching to the choir here for the most part. The vast majority of AI is against the wanton huge SUV/truck that never gets used for it's intended purpose fad that Americans are complicit in. Wonderllama fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Dec 10, 2012 |
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Dec 10, 2012 22:24
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Cream_Filling posted:As an example, here's a news article summarizing the SAE's Tow Ratings practice guidelines: Goddamn.  No wonder the tow ratings are so powertrain dependent; while having the same brakes and chassis, my 4cyl manual Ranger is only rated for 2000lb of trailer weight, while a 4.0 is rated for up to 9500lb with an automatic and 3.55 gears.If I had the 3.45 axle instead of the 3.73, it wouldn't even be rated to tow anything at all! Now that I think about it, I do think the 4.0 trucks get an 8.8" rear end and the 4cyl trucks don't, so there is that...
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Dec 10, 2012 22:33
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Cream_Filling posted:You also have to look at maximum hitch weights versus total max trailer weight, since the former is often really rated low in Europe compared to the US and more likely to be the restrictive factor. In the EU the legally minimum weight required on the hitch is 4% of the trailer's weight or 25kg. Maximum hitch weight is generally recommended at around 100kg for most things to not completely smash the rear suspension of the tow vehicle. Bigger 3000kg+ trailers obviously need more hitch weight than that. I've seen loads of pictures of trailers in the US putting almost all the weight on the hitch, so there's definitely a difference in how things are measured and legally required. Fifth wheels are a different matter, they're obviously designed for it. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Dec 10, 2012 |
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Dec 10, 2012 22:43
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NathanScottPhillips posted:No way, I have an old Chevy that costs a few hundred a year to insure liability only. Hint: you can get special insurance for low-use vehicles. NathanScottPhillips posted:In regards to US vs Europe tow ratings: US trucks don't have to have the same safety ratings as cars and if they're diesel they are exempt from emissions. Pretty sure this has nothing to do with safety or the environment and is purely to sell more trucks. What? You're wrong about emissions: http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/ld_t2.php#intro NathanScottPhillips posted:Lol no one is talking about towing a boat with a Corolla. However why not tow a boat with a big V6 or V8 sedan like davebo used to do with his family? They don't sell sedans with a towing package option much anymore. Usually, a tow package on something like that would be stuff like transmission and oil coolers, upgraded brakes, maybe some suspension stuff, etc. Rated towing capacity on a new Camry is like 1000 pounds. 2000 for a big V8 sedan like the Dodge Charger. Probably primarily because the mounting for the hitch isn't very strong, they're both pretty fat to begin with and don't have a ton of room on their GVWRs (i.e. powertrain/suspension), and the whole thing is basically an afterthought anyway. Not that you couldn't tow back when they actually bothered to engineer stuff in. I know a friend who bought a POS old Cadillac for towing. Rated tow capacity on an old 90s Cadillac Fleetwood with optional tow package was like 7000 lbs - probably because it was loving 19 feet (5.7 meters) long and weighed 4700 lbs. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Dec 10, 2012 |
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Dec 10, 2012 22:53
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Wonderllama posted:On a related note, boats get pretty bad fuel economy too, SO gently caress EM! We're all hosed when the ice caps melt.
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Dec 10, 2012 22:57
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Cream_Filling posted:Rated towing capacity on a new Camry is like 1000 pounds. 2000 for a big V8 sedan like the Dodge Charger. Probably primarily because the mounting for the hitch isn't very strong, they're both pretty fat to begin with and don't have a ton of room on their GVWRs, and the whole thing is basically an afterthought anyway. See, this is what I don't get. My car is within 100kg of a new Camry's curb weight, yet it has more than twice the towing capacity, higher than the Charger's, even. It won't be a rocket ship, but it'll drat well do it all day. I think towing capacities are artificially low on normal cars sold in the US, because "Eh, they'll just buy a truck anyway".
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Dec 10, 2012 23:00
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KozmoNaut posted:See, this is what I don't get. My car is within 100kg of a new Camry's curb weight, yet it has more than twice the towing capacity, higher than the Charger's, even. It won't be a rocket ship, but it'll drat well do it all day. I believe the bottleneck is the strength of the mount for the trailer hitch, and since it's not body on frame anymore, it's harder to engineer that in. You also can't just stick it onto the bumper like they do in Europe because of our bumper laws. Especially since most Americans will be towing with a truck, so probably it's not worth the extra cost in time and weight of engineering a mount point there and then adding more complexity to the ordering system to have it as an option, since the take rate is probably tiny. Add in wiring, maybe some uprated brakes, and a transmission cooler, and you're looking at at least a $500-1000 option package that nobody will want, and will probably make your dealers hate you. Either that or an additional couple dollars in cost/complexity and a few ounces of weight to build in the reinforced mount point on every single car, which then translates to an additional cost of millions of dollars since you're selling millions of cars. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Dec 10, 2012 |
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Dec 10, 2012 23:07
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Cream_Filling posted:I believe the bottleneck is the strength of the mount for the trailer hitch, and since it's not body on frame anymore, it's harder to engineer that in. You also can't just stick it onto the bumper like they do in Europe because of our bumper laws. On my car it's mounted directly to the unibody with a bigass U-shaped frame, made from 10mm (1/2 inch?) steel. I don't think I've ever seen a hitch mounted directly to the bumper, I'm pretty sure that's illegal here too. But yeah, you probably have to engineer a stronger rear section into your car if it's going to be used to towing. I can see why some manufacturers wouldn't bother, but I still think it's mostly a legal issue. Looking at tow ratings for the Camry, I see ratings from 450kg to 1600kg, with no rhyme or reason to engine size or transmission. It's the same car, but depending on where it's sold, it can tow more or less. My Panda could tow more than 450kg, so to think a Camry can't is just crazy.
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Dec 10, 2012 23:23
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I wouldn't want to tow a competition ski boat behind a sedan or a wagon, personally. And our Ridgeline goes off-road pretty much every day at the several-hundred acre camp at which my wife works. It might not be rock-crawling or anything but I still feel pretty justified in our purchase  That said, for hauling a little cargo trailer I have no problem with cars towing stuff.
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Dec 10, 2012 23:51
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ITT: Guilty people justifying their SUV ownership. 50% of the cars being sold today in the US are SUVs and most of those have 5 seats, no tow hitch, and barely enough clearance to climb a curb. Clearly I am attacking you personally and require your justification asap!
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Dec 11, 2012 00:26
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The new ford explorer is really nice looking. that's all I have to contribute to this dumb discussion
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Dec 11, 2012 01:28
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NathanScottPhillips posted:ITT: Guilty people justifying their SUV ownership. Except those bestsellers are mostly CUVs, which are basically fat station wagons built off of compact/midsize car platforms, or else minivans-except-in-name-only. You can tell because they get more or less equivalent mileage to family sedans or the station wagons built off of those same platforms. It's basically all aesthetics with a tiny MPG hit from having AWD and a slightly higher ride height. And even then, sedans and wagons have all gotten so fat you can barely tell the difference anyway, visually or otherwise. Seriously, a Ford Escape, a Ford Fusion, and a Jetta Wagon all get identical EPA fuel mileage. Here, look: code:ps: I don't own an SUV OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Dec 11, 2012 |
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Dec 11, 2012 01:57
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NathanScottPhillips posted:ITT: Guilty people justifying their SUV ownership. Not sure I see the point of this post. Your use of "justified" hints that you're targeting me at least a little bit specifically when you say all these things but really I was more justifying my ownership of a softer, more space- and fuel-efficient vehicle as opposed to a big ol' truck (although I guess the new V6 Dodges and Fords do get better gas mileage; I would say they aren't as useful for most things though) or a legit off-road vehicle. And more generally I didn't see a lot of rancor among the discussion so I don't know why you're doing the whole spouting-off-one-liners act designed to make it clear you're morally superior. Not only that, but I thought it was an AI Certified Truth that in order to be Justified in purchasing a Large Vehicle you had to have a Legitimate Justification for buying one, so presenting Legitimate Points about why you would own one is a good thing. I'm just trying to do the environmentally responsible thing here, man. I was also perfectly happy not, you know, talking about our new car to people but I thought I might learn something if I did. I did! It was worth it! edited for more unnecessary capitalization Elwood P. Dowd fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Dec 11, 2012 |
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Dec 11, 2012 02:23
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Rhyno posted:We're all hosed when the ice caps melt. When they do we can all get boats! I want that boat with the Corvette taillights. And speaking of towing capacity: 
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Dec 11, 2012 02:46
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This is my boat and SUV.
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Dec 11, 2012 04:41
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Can we please shut the hell up about trying to define whether or not a Ridgeline is a truck / SUV / CUV / boat / can opener, and get back to posting about new cars?
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Dec 11, 2012 17:48
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davebo posted:When they do we can all get boats! I want that boat with the Corvette taillights. this needs to be a spec racing league. You drive the 'vette/wagon around a track, back it up to a ramp, launch and race the boat, then finish with just the car on wet tires around a drift course. gently caress, now I know what I'd do with a billion dollars.
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Dec 11, 2012 18:06
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Xguard86 posted:this needs to be a spec racing league. You drive the 'vette/wagon around a track, back it up to a ramp, launch and race the boat, then finish with just the car on wet tires around a drift course. Actually, you have to tow a motorcycle BEHIND the boat and race that as well. It's like an automotive triathlon!
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Dec 11, 2012 19:43
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bike goes in the boat and if it falls out, you are DQed.
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Dec 11, 2012 20:50
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Dunno, sounds like a good opportunity for a truck and ute event. Motorcycle in the bed, boat trailer at the back. Maybe mount an ultralight on the boat so you fly that sucker right off of the water.
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Dec 11, 2012 21:39
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I like the new Accord, and I imagine it can tow a dingy.
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Dec 11, 2012 22:01
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Nonsense posted:I like the new Accord, and I imagine it can tow a dingy. I think the new Accord definitely marks an up-trend for Honda in terms of design, but I can't get over the fact that it looks too much like the Hyundai Genesis both in profile and especially from the back because they have identical taillights.     From these angles, and also in real life, the Accord really looks like the same car with two character lines pressed into the sides. Not that the Genesis is a particularly distinctive design or anything, but why is so much of the detailing so similar? OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Dec 11, 2012 |
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Dec 11, 2012 22:28
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Between styling trends, competing in the same market segment, pedestrian safety and collision ratings, and having similar aerodynamic concerns, there's only so much variety the stylists can put in for wrapping up a particular package.
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Dec 11, 2012 22:40
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Fucknag posted:Between styling trends, competing in the same market segment, pedestrian safety and collision ratings, and having similar aerodynamic concerns, there's only so much variety the stylists can put in for wrapping up a particular package. Yeah but most other cars are at least distinguishable, despite working under all those same conditions. In this case, the two cars are not even in the same market, and you can distinguish them from proportions if you look more from the front because of their fundamentally different architectures. A lot of the stuff like the fake hofmesiter kink is pretty ubiquitous, but it's the overtly similar shape of the greenhouse plus details like those taillights that make it worse. Even worse than that is the fact that there's nothing recognizably Honda about that design at all except for the grille. It's self-consciously aping the German sedans to an extent that is atypical from Honda (though obviously, you do see a fair amoutn of trend setting from the top of the market). You can excuse the Genesis for looking generic because it's a design holdover from before Hyundai had established a corporate style, and it's also intentionally trying to not look too much like a normal hyundai. And the Honda is an improvement in that it's not aggressively ugly or bland like some of the previous big-name Honda designs (CRV, Civic, etc.). But still kind of disappointing. I don't really care for Nissan's corporate design, but at least it's recognizable.
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Dec 11, 2012 23:27
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These two cars really do not look all that much alike. The body panels' creases and the trim pieces are fairly different.
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