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Antinumeric posted:God yes, I hated the book the first time I read it, the second time I really enjoyed it. I wonder if (massive Deadhouse Gates spoilers) Coltaine will turn up in any future books. He's too awesome not to! Unfortunately, he does show up again in an Esslemont book. Might be Return of the Crimson Guard if I remember right. I kind of wish they'd just left Coltaine alone though. Not every loose thread needs to come back.
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Dec 11, 2012 21:55
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Safety Factor posted:Unfortunately, he does show up again in an Esslemont book. Might be Return of the Crimson Guard if I remember right. I kind of wish they'd just left Coltaine alone though. Not every loose thread needs to come back. He does? As a child? I must have missed that.
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Dec 12, 2012 02:30
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So how important are the huge walls of philosophizing? Like, are there any important plot details in them or is it just Erikson  ing?At first I was reading through most of them, but as the books go on they seem to get longer and way more frequent to the point where I can't believe his editor never pointed out that some random peasant wouldn't spend an hour waxing poetic about the inevitability of inequity in a civilized culture or whatever. I'm fine with it when it comes up in small doses, but at least once or twice a chapter he just dumps like five pages of it nonstop and my eyes glaze over and I find myself just skimming through until stuff starts happening again. Which I can totally deal with, but I'm worried that there will be some huge important plot revelation buried inside one of them that I'll miss. Also, Bonehunters questions, like 2/3 of the way through: What was the point of the shadow hounds keeping that last t'rohlbarahl alive? They had no problem killing the other ones whatsoever, but then they leave that one alive and drag it to Poliel's temple to leave it there for the Deragoth because why exactly? Or was it the Deragoth that killed the other ones, and the hounds wouldn't have been able to finish the job on that last one? And why were they heading there to begin with? I'm assuming Shadowthrone was in on Paran's plan and sent them there?
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Dec 12, 2012 07:30
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If they're legitimately hampering your experience, skim them. It's my experience that the most you'll miss is a lil' bit of characterization or worldbuilding, I don't think he includes anything of earth-shattering importance to the overall plot in them, though I can't promise they don't have anything to do with the overarching themes of the series/a particular book/plot/etc.
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Dec 12, 2012 07:49
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Yeah the rampant philosophizing is a valid complaint. It gets more and more lengthy in his later books and his editor really needed to point that out. I remember reading in an interview that they were friends so that explains why. Most of the time though, you won't miss out on too much by skimming through those sections. There might be snippets of lore here and there but nothing that should impact your understanding of the overall plot. My understanding was that the last D'ivers was left alive to attract the Deragoth, since they were mortal enemies when they were still active. By transporting the D'ivers to Poliel's temple, the Deragoth arrived and killed Poliel (who was trapped by the otataral shard) as well.
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Dec 12, 2012 08:00
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NovemberMike posted:Deadhouse Gates is a slow boil but it's worth the payoff. If you hate Felisin then I'm pretty sure that's intentional, and Coltaine is really one of the biggest badasses in the series. The climax is a little less epic in terms of gods duking it out but on a personal level it's much more fascinating than the first book. In some ways I would be perfectly happy if Erikson just wrote military fantasy on squad/army level and didn't give a gently caress about the gods. It is quite obvious Erikson have great influences from Glen Cook and the Black Company. He is quoted on the Black Company collection, where he says "reading Black Company is like reading Vietnam squad fiction on peyote". Although in my opionion, Erikson is better than Cook at it.
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Dec 12, 2012 09:14
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IncendiaC posted:Yeah the rampant philosophizing is a valid complaint. It gets more and more lengthy in his later books and his editor really needed to point that out. I remember reading in an interview that they were friends so that explains why. Most of the time though, you won't miss out on too much by skimming through those sections. There might be snippets of lore here and there but nothing that should impact your understanding of the overall plot. The walls of philosophy/sociology texts are what make Ericksons books better than most other fantasy for me, if you take them out you might as well just read D&D novels.
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Dec 12, 2012 12:30
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echomadman posted:The walls of philosophy/sociology texts are what make Ericksons books better than most other fantasy for me, if you take them out you might as well just read D&D novels. I was going to post this, I totally agree. I'm getting towards the end of Midnight Tides and   I love Tehol's walls of text against Lether's free market capitalism. And to the guy earlier on the page, Deadhouse definitely took a while to grab me but by the climax of the Chain of Dogs part of the story I was totally floored and pretty emotional. Same at the end of Memories of Ice. Pegnose Pete fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Dec 12, 2012 |
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Dec 12, 2012 17:13
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IncendiaC posted:his editor really needed to point that out. Thankfully you are not his editor, and thankfully writing isn't a democracy.
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Dec 12, 2012 17:35
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echomadman posted:The walls of philosophy/sociology texts are what make Ericksons books better than most other fantasy for me, if you take them out you might as well just read D&D novels. Sometimes I agree with that but the later books lay it on pretty thick. There are times where it doesn't really seem to serve anything and even seems to be out of character and context for some situations. There is a middle ground between D&D novels and some of the more exhaustive sections people are talking about, one I think he had down pat already in other books even. Anyways I'm reading Orb Sceptre Throne finally after getting some free time. One thing I like about ICE is that hes a more descriptive writer than Erikson and he seems to have found a good balance here. Unfortunately he seems to always go a POV too far and this trend has continued where I'm at in the story. Will post more when I finish.
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Dec 12, 2012 18:33
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I haven't read any ICE Malazan books in a while. Last one I read was Return of the Crimson Guard and I'm about to pick up Stonewielder.
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Dec 12, 2012 22:05
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echomadman posted:The walls of philosophy/sociology texts are what make Ericksons books better than most other fantasy for me, if you take them out you might as well just read D&D novels. Don't get me wrong, I think the philosophy texts are fine and I have nothing against it, in fact they made Books 1-6 much more enjoyable for me. I just think he went overboard with them in TtH and onwards. They're still miles above any other generic fantasy "kill dragons and save the world from evil" stuff.
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Dec 13, 2012 01:49
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Tomorrow I can afford to either buy Orb Sceptre Throne and Forge of Darkness, or I can afford to buy the two latest Abercrombie books (Heroes and whatever the new one is called). Guide my hand, nerds.
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Dec 13, 2012 04:48
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Forge of Darkness is probably Erikson's masterpiece. The very apex of his writing. Though you have to like that kind of introspection to appreciate it.
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Dec 13, 2012 05:14
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I have the hardcover sitting on my nightstand, so I hope theres more than Tiste ennui and aforementioned introspection in there. I'd buy one of each maybe. Like Forge and The Heroes. OST is weak, and I heard Red Country isn't as good as earlier works.
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Dec 13, 2012 06:14
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If you liked the regular Malazan series buy Forge of Darkness asap.
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Dec 13, 2012 06:35
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NovemberMike posted:Deadhouse Gates is a slow boil but it's worth the payoff. If you hate Felisin then I'm pretty sure that's intentional, I'm pretty sure it's not - I once read a Q&A with Erikson where he said he was surprised that so many people hated Felisin. I'll see if I can find the link. edit: found it! It's from the Tor reread Q&A for House of Chains (about a quarter of the way down the page). Here's the part where he talks about Felisin, blacked out just in case it reveals too much for those who aren't up through HoC yet: "In a series about compassion, sympathy is an important force, and it’s amazing how far it can be stretched, and just how quickly it can then suddenly snap. How do you get it back? That’s the challenge, and that was my challenge with Felisin, although, to be honest, I was never as unsympathetic towards her as were most readers. She defended herself on all levels, as best she could, and as if often the case, some people will use aggression as a best defense, including verbal aggression. But she was also lost. Seriously lost. Lost in ways most of us have never known. Anyway, I needed to bring her back to you, to make that conclusion emotional (but not emotionally simplistic – I wanted the push and pull of feelings in the reader, following that final scene with her: I wanted sadness mixed with confusion and unease – I needed all of that to give meaning to Pearl’s decision, and Lostara’s silence)." Leospeare fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Dec 13, 2012 |
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Dec 13, 2012 09:11
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I actually kind of like Felisin. I'm only about half-way through Deadhouse Gates, but I think she's a neat character. Her pure self-centered attitude is just so blatantly against the other characters she's with so it adds a new facet to their journey. Plus I'm totally expecting a rad payoff to her arc. I'm sorta hoping Felisin becomes some kind of badass by the end of the book/series. But I'm usually wrong about these kinds of things.
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Dec 13, 2012 09:42
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bigmcgaffney posted:I have the hardcover sitting on my nightstand, so I hope theres more than Tiste ennui and aforementioned introspection in there. On one hand, I liked Red Country. I thought it was just as good as any other Abercrombie book. That said, the one of each route is the only way to go. Forge of Darkness is an absolute must read. So yeah, grab The Heroes and Forge of Darkness. Next time you have some spare cash you then have two series to finish!
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Dec 13, 2012 10:33
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The Heroes by Abercrombie is probably his best work so far but having read the rest of his stuff for background makes a big difference. I wouldn't say Forge of Darkness is the best thing Erikson has written but it's definitely a better read than anything else there.
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Dec 13, 2012 15:09
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Some of the intrespection stuff gets long winded in the later books, with TtH being the chief perpetrator. Dust of Dreams seems like he is back on track and I am pretty enthralled again. Question about a man named Pearl he dies in the bonehunters right? Who is the demon Pearl chained to the wagon in Dragnipur in TtH though? I kinda remember a demon like that from the first book or something, he was enslaved by Tayschrenn and Quick Ben (?) stole the vessel and freed him or something. Is that right, and if so why did he name 2 characters the same thing?
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Dec 13, 2012 16:23
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FlyingCowOfDoom posted:Some of the intrespection stuff gets long winded in the later books, with TtH being the chief perpetrator. Dust of Dreams seems like he is back on track and I am pretty enthralled again. It's just a pure coincidence type of thing.
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Dec 13, 2012 18:12
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Oh Snapple! posted:It's just a pure coincidence type of thing. Ok cause I spent about 15 minutes flipping through books trying to find something where he was both the guy and the demon, or soultaken and could morph into a demon or something.
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Dec 13, 2012 19:48
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Heroes and Forge it is, thanks guys.
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Dec 14, 2012 00:05
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The Pearls are different. There aren't enough nouns in the dictionary for Erikson's terrible naming conventions.
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Dec 14, 2012 02:59
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FlyingCowOfDoom posted:Some of the intrespection stuff gets long winded in the later books, with TtH being the chief perpetrator. Dust of Dreams seems like he is back on track and I am pretty enthralled again. The demons in the series are actually quite cool and I wish we could see more of them. Like the demon lords summoned in Midnight Tides, who chases down a Forkrul Assail and urinates on him, also shows up in Reaper's Gale as a bunch of farmers that gets assaulted by the Bonehunter marines.
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Dec 14, 2012 08:33
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Cardiac posted:The demons in the series are actually quite cool and I wish we could see more of them. I never quite get what demons are in his books. They seem to be creatures that live in another dimension / warren or something, they definitely seem to have their own civilization/society. Anyone got any more ideas?
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Dec 14, 2012 13:03
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Antinumeric posted:I never quite get what demons are in his books. They seem to be creatures that live in another dimension / warren or something, they definitely seem to have their own civilization/society. Anyone got any more ideas? So I suppose in theory the Andii are also demons. They just turned native. The vague part is Aral Gamelon. It's been described as a demon-warren, close to Hood's warren. As simply the art of summoning demons. And as a whole world, more then just a warren. Raygereio fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Dec 14, 2012 |
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Dec 14, 2012 14:48
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Abalieno posted:Thankfully you are not his editor, and thankfully writing isn't a democracy. Man, I was wondering where you'd gone - I almost started to miss your weirdly snide remarks.
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Dec 14, 2012 18:10
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Raygereio posted:From I gather "demon" is a catchall term describing the various beings not from Wu. Some can have whole societies, some may be little more then animals. But as long as it's from elsewhere: it's a demon. I'd agree with this. The demons seen in the series are generally beings from other warrens. It's sort of like how we refer to things from other planets as aliens, to be a bit more sci-fi about it.
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Dec 15, 2012 03:18
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the least weasel posted:Man, I was wondering where you'd gone - I almost started to miss your weirdly snide remarks. Snide or not he has a point Erikson wrote the books he wanted to write whether we like them or not.
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Dec 15, 2012 04:49
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Raygereio posted:From I gather "demon" is a catchall term describing the various beings not from Wu. Some can have whole societies, some may be little more then animals. But as long as it's from elsewhere: it's a demon. I think one factor that can narrow down which creatures are demons is that if they're a race that can be summoned and commanded by sorcerers/wizards then they can be considered demons.
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Dec 15, 2012 08:04
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Not sure if this is the right thread, I finished the main series a few months ago and have been taking a break going through some other books. I read Night of Knives before GotM but am now faced with the decision of whether I should be continue with Esslemont or Forge of Darkness? Would love some suggestions in ether direction.
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Dec 15, 2012 09:32
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Laxon posted:Not sure if this is the right thread, I finished the main series a few months ago and have been taking a break going through some other books. I read Night of Knives before GotM but am now faced with the decision of whether I should be continue with Esslemont or Forge of Darkness? Would love some suggestions in ether direction. In the choice between Esslemont and Erikson, the answer is always Erikson. FoD is the background story for the Tiste Andi, whereas Esslemont describes what happens in the rest of world and is relatively separate from the BotF
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Dec 15, 2012 14:16
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Cardiac posted:In the choice between Esslemont and Erikson, the answer is always Erikson. FoD is far more than the tiste backstory. It also goes into the Jaghut backstory and introduces the mysterious Azathi race. It's also one of Erikson's best books so far. It isn't structured the same way the others are, and freed from the constraints of the formulaic build up to convergence late in the book he really manages to set things up for the rest of the new trilogy.
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Dec 15, 2012 15:14
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Raygereio posted:From I gather "demon" is a catchall term describing the various beings not from Wu. Some can have whole societies, some may be little more then animals. But as long as it's from elsewhere: it's a demon. Erikson commented on this in the interview that was linked a few posts up: Steven Erikson posted:My second questions is about the nature of “demons” — are “demons” simply creature from another warren? (e.g. in the eyes of the beholder), or is there something else to it? I agree with the general sentiment: most demons in this book are pretty awesome. I think Pearl was one of my favorite demons, and I was delighted to see him return later in the series inside of Dragnipur
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Dec 15, 2012 17:00
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Coming up to the end of Dust of Dreams. That scene with Toc and Tool, god drat  gently caress Burn.Reapers Gale spoilers too, I think How did Taxilian and Rautos get to the Wastelands? Last thing I remember, Taxilian was on the boat with Karsa and Rautos was doing some excavating around Lether; really can't recall them doing anything after that.
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Dec 15, 2012 23:19
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zzttaozia posted:Coming up to the end of Dust of Dreams. That scene with Toc and Tool, god drat DoDThey are ghosts in Icariums mind, they got trapped there when his machines in Letharas exploded and made some new warrens.
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Dec 16, 2012 00:35
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I have never once posted in this thread, and I am not sure why, but I want to personally sing its praises and thank this forum. In 2009, I was in some real poo poo. My life was crumbling, I had no job, no unemployment insurance, a small pile of money and a ton of spare time. I came down with a terrible infection that left me bedridden for what seemed like years but was in truth only a month or so. It was in the midst of this, that I discovered the precursor to this thread, and upon hearing "3000 year old bad-rear end" immediately picked up the first book. I am so glad I did, it took me three years of reading and waiting for the final two books, but when I was done with it in the spring of 2011, It felt like my oldest friend had died. I have never experienced such a rich and wonderful literary experience as reading the Malazan series. I've read everything from russian literature, to chinese poetry and the various classics of Europe, tons of fantasy and sci-fi, but the experience of reading this series tops them all. The characters and their personal philosophies, the cultures and the peoples are so deep and involved it boggles. The final moments of The Crippled God, when all the themes and characters rush together, Discovering that the true purpose behind the bonehunters mission was an act of mercy and love is one of the greatest moments in fiction. The books left me feeling so empty in the end, I couldn't read or watch anything for months after. Nothing could captivate me. So thank you goons, these books got me through the worst point in my life and gave me a way of escaping a hell I was living, and have enriched me mentally. Erickson took a spergy table top RPG, and turned it into a masterwork of fiction. I am not exaggerating. I was walking through B&N a week ago and saw Forge of Darkness and picked it up in hardcover without a second thought. Oh my is it good so far. Demystifying all of the 3000 year old badasses and diving deep into the court life of the Tiste and the downfall of Kurald Galain, so great! Rodnik fucked around with this message at 11:10 on Dec 16, 2012 |
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Dec 16, 2012 10:57
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Finished Reapers Gale today. Trull Sengar  This is a sad, sad day.Also, Silchas getting hosed up by some Moranth cussers and Quick Ben and him turning tail was hilarious. "I'm going to gently caress poo poo up...*blam*...on second though, I think I'm gonna fly north..." Finally, Brys Beddict! 
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Dec 19, 2012 03:42
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