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Buell went under because they tied themselves to Harley, Harley never gave them an appropriate powertrain, never gave them adequate marketing or dealer support, clearly wanted little to do with them and in the end unceremoniously terminated them. The complaints about Buells inevitably revolve around the Harley engine traits (heavy, low revs, crap HP, crude tranny) which could have been and eventually were solved with a Rotax engine - a Suzuki twin could have been a better option. As far as being special snowflakes, BMW goes much further out of the way to be strange and they're in no danger of dissolution. (Yes, clutchpuck, I know you love your Ulysses. Now imagine it with a stroked SV1000 motor.)
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Dec 13, 2012 15:58
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Snowdens Secret posted:Buell went under because they tied themselves to Harley, Harley never gave them an appropriate powertrain, never gave them adequate marketing or dealer support, clearly wanted little to do with them and in the end unceremoniously terminated them. The complaints about Buells inevitably revolve around the Harley engine traits (heavy, low revs, crap HP, crude tranny) which could have been and eventually were solved with a Rotax engine - a Suzuki twin could have been a better option. As far as being special snowflakes, BMW goes much further out of the way to be strange and they're in no danger of dissolution. I agree. Harley let themselves and Buell down. It was a perfectly good opportunity to expand their market beyond 'Harley riders' with new, clean-sheet designs, which they had the ability to fund, but instead they continued to drip-fee Buell hand me downs like a bastard stepchild and stick them in Harley dealerships that didn't want them and wouldn't sell them. Of course how much EB is to blame will never be known to us. Was he all in favour of the strategy, water cooled engine issue aside, until Harley pulled the plug? When bloor wanted to restart triumph as a volume manufacturer, he went to Kawasaki to find out how it was done, not to Coventry. So why, aside from blind  , did Buell go to people who knew nothing about building fast bikes? He also has to carry the can for styling presumably. I suppose if the idea was to appeal just to Americans then ok, but how do you sell some of those colours and shapes outside of the US market? Translucent plastic tank anyone?
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Dec 13, 2012 17:54
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Snowdens Secret posted:Buell went under because they tied themselves to Harley, Harley never gave them an appropriate powertrain, never gave them adequate marketing or dealer support, clearly wanted little to do with them and in the end unceremoniously terminated them. The complaints about Buells inevitably revolve around the Harley engine traits (heavy, low revs, crap HP, crude tranny) which could have been and eventually were solved with a Rotax engine - a Suzuki twin could have been a better option. As far as being special snowflakes, BMW goes much further out of the way to be strange and they're in no danger of dissolution. BMW has an incredibly successful company with which to back it up that is completely independent of their motorcycle division. Harley didn't give a gently caress when Buells didn't sell and pulled the rug out. I'd also argue BMW caters to its demographic very well - rich doctors that like touring and farkles and have money to blow on a comfy bike. Buell never, ever filled a niche like that. Who were they hoping to sell to? Hardley riders who couldn't quite afford that 70k bagger? Their idea was to instead take a heavy motor and put it in a weird frame, slapped on some unique brakes and watched it burn. I know it's anecdotal but I've just never had a high opinion of Buells. Every lightning/firebolt (I'm pretty sure those are the ones with the huge frame portion) I see has that faded rear end frame and just looks kind of sad. They don't age well imo.
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Dec 13, 2012 18:04
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Saga posted:I agree. Harley let themselves and Buell down. It was a perfectly good opportunity to expand their market beyond 'Harley riders' with new, clean-sheet designs, which they had the ability to fund, but instead they continued to drip-fee Buell hand me downs like a bastard stepchild and stick them in Harley dealerships that didn't want them and wouldn't sell them. Buell's contract with Harley was loving terrible. I've heard stories that his attorney actually forced Buell to sign something saying that he couldn't be held liable for what happened after Buell got under contract with Harley. I'd imagine this is mainly because Eric Buell is a bullheaded engineer with no business savvy, and who doesn't let anyone rein him in, which is great when you're a hotshot inventor who reports to someone who can handle your BS, but loving terrible when you're trying to make a motorcycle company. He's had some great ideas but at the same time there's a point where someone needs to sit him down and say "Look, some of the things you do work great. Good job inventing oil in the swingarm, gas in the frame, underslung exhausts. All primo ideas. Stop with the loving ZTL brake bullshit, the belt drives, start with a decent engine, and get the gently caress away from a company that doesn't market your bikes, sell your bikes, or honestly want a goddamn thing to do with you". He's reaped what he's sowed.
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Dec 13, 2012 18:37
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You guys ever feel bad about selling a bike to someone that doesn't know what they are getting themselves into? I'm selling the CRF450R motard, conservative 240lb and 50hp. Guy coming to look at it today is coming off a KLX140L, wants to use it for getting back and forth to school...no street experience. Other guy that has looked at it twice and is trying to decide has some experience on various dirt bikes and 4-wheelers, no street riding. I've explained to both that this is a race bike but it doesn't seem to sink in. I hate selling the bike knowing that it is very likely going to be wrecked and they are going to get hurt. Or that they will treat it like a sensible bike and go 1500+ miles on an oil change and destroy the engine then bitch to me.
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Dec 13, 2012 20:28
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Or you could sell it to someone with 20 years of street and track experience who will wrap it around a tree in a day. All you can do is tell them the facts.
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Dec 13, 2012 21:13
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I went to the Toronto Motorcycle Show for a few hours last Saturday. I've been before, and there wasn't anything super new this year, but it was an opportunity to sit on 100 different bikes, and I took it. It took me about an hour to realize someone was missing: Kawasaki I asked a few shop vendors, apparently the cost to exhibit at this show has been steadily rising and Kawasaki was the first to say "gently caress this". Pretty bold move, but it does get the ball rolling. If others follow suit, the future of the show might be in jeopardy. I'm sure Kawa and everyone else will be at the bigger Motorcycle SuperShow in Toronto next month, though.
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Dec 13, 2012 21:31
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Actually going to the International Motorcycle Show in Seattle this weekend with a friend. Not epecting anything exciting, but it's always nice to look at new bikes and whatnot. Indian is one of their multi-market participants. How long has that been? They're relatively young in their resurgence, aren't they?
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Dec 13, 2012 22:11
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I'm debating going to the Seattle show this weekend, but the website isn't doing a very good job at selling it to me. If I've got nothing better to do I might check it out. If we got to do demo rides like the shows in CA I might be more interested. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me why they're having a motorcycle show in December, though.
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Dec 13, 2012 22:14
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I've gone the last few years. It's worth a couple bucks just to see the new models and sit on some bikes. It's not a terribly interesting show, but theres a good hour or two's worth of mulling around and some good vendors on site. Last years trials show was pretty cool and the year before that the Ducati stunt team did indoor stunt show which was pretty wild to see on indoor grade concrete (No traction).
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Dec 13, 2012 22:55
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NitroSpazzz posted:You guys ever feel bad about selling a bike to someone that doesn't know what they are getting themselves into? Nope. I'll tell them the truth and if they want to lie to themselves, that's their thing.
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Dec 13, 2012 22:58
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Snowdens Secret posted:Buell went under because they tied themselves to Harley, Harley never gave them an appropriate powertrain, never gave them adequate marketing or dealer support, clearly wanted little to do with them and in the end unceremoniously terminated them. The complaints about Buells inevitably revolve around the Harley engine traits (heavy, low revs, crap HP, crude tranny) which could have been and eventually were solved with a Rotax engine - a Suzuki twin could have been a better option. As far as being special snowflakes, BMW goes much further out of the way to be strange and they're in no danger of dissolution. Just want to say that Rotax make better v-twins than Suzuki can even dream about  (Actually I'm guessing that Aprilia wouldn't have let Rotax sell the 60-degree Mille engine to third parties as they did a significant amount of development work on it, but still it would have been interesting to see what he could have done with a WSB-spec engine)
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Dec 13, 2012 23:19
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Yamaha YZF-R250 finally confirmed: http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news-new-bikes/yamaha-yzf-r250-finally-confirmed/21970.html
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Dec 14, 2012 09:30
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Just want to say that Rotax make better v-twins than Suzuki can even dream about Buell didn't need the Mille engine, they needed the engine they eventually got for the 1125R. Alternately Rotax has a stable of other engines they cram in snowmobiles and other stuff that might could have been adapted for at least the smaller Buells. The key is that Buell bikes needed an engine with more top-end breathing room, more revs, and the kind of power that requires water-cooling, and they weren't going to get it from a company whose engine design priorities were largely cosmetic. Erik Buell has been tied to H-D for essentially his entire professional life. I'm reluctant to base too much on his life story / wiki entry since I don't know what's real and what's propaganda and fluffery, but it's easy to see why trying to stay under the wing of H-D was a natural choice early on. Plus, frankly, there's something in the mindset of American bike manufacturers that in order to sell bikes to Americans they have to tie themselves to vintage American biking and usually big air-cooled V-twins, even if you've got an entire generation or two of riders now that grew up on little Jap Triples and Fours. (This is why you'll never see a stop to the attempts to bring Indian back from the dead, and also why you'll never see a new Indian remotely interesting enough to buy at retail price.) The thing is, Harley spent the money to develop the V-Rod motor. I think they've half-assed the marketing on it - hell, it took years to offer their sportiest motor in a bike with mid controls - but I wonder why it never found its way into a Buell. Sure, the form factor probably wouldn't make it easy but it still wouldn't be as silly an exercise as the Yamaha MT-01.
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Dec 14, 2012 14:55
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aventari posted:Yamaha YZF-R250 finally confirmed: Awe yeah I can't wait to- India?!
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Dec 14, 2012 17:14
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India is the largest motorcycle market in the world. Plus they love small bikes. What proves successful and small these days starts there, then goes to the UK, then if its a massive hit, maybe comes to the US in some form.
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Dec 14, 2012 17:15
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The only thing that I liked about Buells were the wheelbase/geometry. The stupid brakes / crazy centralization gimmicks all just seemed like gimmicks to me.
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Dec 14, 2012 17:20
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Spiffness posted:India is the largest motorcycle market in the world. Plus they love small bikes. What proves successful and small these days starts there, then goes to the UK, then if its a massive hit, maybe comes to the US in some form. I understand that, I was just excited about about a sporty little Yamaha 250.
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Dec 14, 2012 17:24
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The CBR250R is made in Thailand, iirc. The high yen makes building low-end bikes in Japan for export rather untenable (and makes the higher-end ones absurdly pricy - see the latest round of 600 supersports.) The KTM Duke 390 will be built in India, as will the future small-displacement Triumph(s). It's kind of like griping that you'd never buy a Japanese car built in Ohio or Kentucky, you much prefer American ones made in Canada or Korea but you might settle for a precision German machine from Tennessee or South Carolina. (I know you weren't griping)
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Dec 14, 2012 17:38
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aventari posted:Yamaha YZF-R250 finally confirmed: More parallel twins for the parallel twin god!
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Dec 14, 2012 17:44
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Snowdens Secret posted:The thing is, Harley spent the money to develop the V-Rod motor. I think they've half-assed the marketing on it - hell, it took years to offer their sportiest motor in a bike with mid controls - but I wonder why it never found its way into a Buell. Sure, the form factor probably wouldn't make it easy but it still wouldn't be as silly an exercise as the Yamaha MT-01. A Buell with a V-Rod engine in it would have legitimately interested me (as would a sports bike with a V-Rod aesthetic), but as you sort of alluded to Harley themselves have never really fully committed to the V-Rod idea even after they spent the money. After all all they need to do to keep the money rolling in is continue making GBS threads out more HD-branded tat (I still remember getting a bottle of Harley-Davidson aftershave as a Christmas present from a well-meaning but tragically-misinformed aunt), actually manufacturing motorcycles is just a sideline for them. I could continue (and would end up using the words "post-9/11 world") but meh. Spiffness posted:India is the largest motorcycle market in the world. Plus they love small bikes. What proves successful and small these days starts there, then goes to the UK, then if its a massive hit, maybe comes to the US in some form. The US probably has more 250s per-capita than the UK - ever since they changed the learner rules in the 80s people go pretty much straight from 125s to 600s. Apart from the occasional bit of grey-market exotica (and of course off-roaders) the 250 market is pretty much dead on this side of the pond. I don't think the hallowed Ninja 250 was ever even released over here (and if it was it was probably under the GPZ "branding" anyway).
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Dec 14, 2012 17:46
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Does anyone seriously expect it to make it to the US? We're gonna have to start pushing a lot more ninja 250s and cbrs on newbies here for that to happen. Ed: Wouldn't it be more likely they use the 250 single they have or are there 250 twin yamahas in the asian market? nsaP fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Dec 14, 2012 |
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Dec 14, 2012 17:46
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nsaP posted:Does anyone seriously expect it to make it to the US? Now I want to take a V-Star 250 engine and put it in a sport frame.
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Dec 14, 2012 18:02
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Snowdens Secret posted:The thing is, Harley spent the money to develop the V-Rod motor. I think they've half-assed the marketing on it - hell, it took years to offer their sportiest motor in a bike with mid controls - but I wonder why it never found its way into a Buell. Sure, the form factor probably wouldn't make it easy but it still wouldn't be as silly an exercise as the Yamaha MT-01. What's funny is that despite the intent, the MT-01 ended up something really cool because it was a completely silly exercise. Something completely weird that nobody wanted or asked for built to the highest specification Yamaha could manage on a production bike. Sure, nobody bought them and they depreciated like a rock, but I'd have one just because of the audacious lunacy of them (especially at current prices!).
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Dec 14, 2012 19:39
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goddamnedtwisto posted:A Buell with a V-Rod engine in it would have legitimately interested me.. From what I read some time ago, the Vrod motor was originally a Buell led project to develop a water cooled v-twin in house, but some time into the development HD decided they wanted to take over and make it work for their bikes too ( like the sportster engine being redesigned for the XB as well as Sportster lines, resulting in a motor too heavy and underpowered), leading to it being too heavy and expensive and without enough power. I also read in some interview with Erik, not sure the details, that the reason that Buell never made a bike with a full fairing was because HD absolutely forbid it.
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Dec 14, 2012 21:57
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Snowdens Secret posted:(Yes, clutchpuck, I know you love your Ulysses. Now imagine it with a stroked SV1000 motor.) I'm having more fun imagining it with a Super Duke motor, which I suspect the new ones will be a little more comparable to. In fact I bet we'll see the new models aimed squarely at taking some of KTM's street bike market from them. I love the ol' 1203cc Harley lump and all of its quirks but an 1125 makes it feel like riding a bicycle in comparison, so I expect whatever Erik sets up will be the greatest motorcycle in the world. Z3n posted:Stop with the loving ZTL brake bullshit I don't see anything wrong with the ZTL, especially on a street bike. Costs about half as much to maintain compared with a traditional dual-rotor front end, weighs about half as much, looks way bad rear end, and works like 90% as well. I run organic pads and I don't get the binary action some people complain about. GnarlyCharlie4u posted:Whatever it was popped up in the guard here: This pretty much boils down to "poo poo happens", unfortunately. It would be extremely unlikely for anything to get sucked up to where that arrow is pointing - the belt guard is pretty extensive on the Uly [compare it with a Lightning's], pretty much no point on the belt exposed from above where things might fall on to it - unless the pulley is buried or we're spinning the wheel in gravel. To me it seems more likely something got flung off the tire, took a ride, and got lodged on its way out. Did you find the culprit? The Uly's suspension geometry is HELL on the belts, too. A Firebolt or Lightning, with like 2" less suspension travel and a shorter swing arm doesn't pull at the belt nearly as much, but that constant-tension design falls apart on the Uly. A lot of folks will notch one of the mounting holes on the idler to run the belt looser or go with a spring-loaded idler. clutchpuck fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Dec 14, 2012 |
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Dec 14, 2012 23:14
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e: I am dumb
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Dec 14, 2012 23:31
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Oh the ZTL system might work fine, but it's an expensive way to resolve a problem that has already been solved. For the amount of money he likely dumped into getting wheels made, custom rotors, etc, he could have put awesome brakes on every one of his bikes out there, that would have a wide variety of pad options, rotor options, etc...and that's all for what? Bragging rights for a system that's inferior by design under high performance use to what is standard, and not as good as the normal dual rotor setup on the street? His replacement rotors are decently cheap (180 bucks, plus 50 for the mounting kit) but pads are $150 a pop. It just doesn't make sense, unless you're an engineer with a hardon for reinventing the rotor...and that's pretty much EB's problem with everything he's done. If someone could get him to focus on the poo poo that really makes a difference, maybe work with respect to normal concerns like cost, he could make a brilliant, inexpensive, american performance motorcycle.
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Dec 14, 2012 23:50
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EB is definitely Mr. Reinvent The Wheel, but you have to admit those ZTL brakes look sweet.
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Dec 14, 2012 23:56
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Z3n posted:[ZTL] pads are $150 a pop. Pads? You're about $120 high on that figure. ZTL pads are the same as conventional pads.
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Dec 15, 2012 00:07
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clutchpuck posted:Pads? You're about $120 high on that figure. ZTL pads are the same as conventional pads. Front pads are like $80+ for conventional pads too...$30 pads, where? 
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Dec 15, 2012 00:09
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BlackMK4 posted:Front pads are like $80+ for conventional pads too...$30 pads, where? That's about right. Remember, a dual-rotor setup is going to need two pairs on the front [that's why a ZTL costs half to maintain]. I spent $80 on EBC HH pads for the wife's beemer last christmas. Amazon, motorcycle-superstore, lots of places have discounted pads. They range from $30 to like $50 for a pair. Last pair I got for the Uly were Braking CM55 for $35 marked down from $50 on motorcycle superstore. clutchpuck fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Dec 15, 2012 |
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Dec 15, 2012 00:14
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Ohhhhh, I totally forgot it was just the one side. Derp.
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Dec 15, 2012 00:15
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My bad...I saw the pads listed on his website at $150 a pop for the "cheap" ones...but those are for the 8 pot caliper: http://www.erikbuellracing.com/store/parts-accessories/brakes/performance-friction-front-brake-pad-set.html Totally missed the 6 pot pads on there. But seriously, I just want a badass american sportbike that's within spitting distance of a mass market japanese 4 in price and performance. And it still doesn't change the overall point that it's basically a lot of dev time, work, custom stuff, just to...make a solution that's either a little inferior or totally inferior.
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Dec 15, 2012 01:31
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Pope Mobile posted:Awe yeah I can't wait to- India?! The KTM Duke 125, 200 and 390 are all made in India as well.
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Dec 15, 2012 01:46
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Nidhg00670000 posted:The KTM Duke 125, 200 and 390 are all made in India as well. It's only being available in India that are getting me. Unless I read it wrong.
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Dec 15, 2012 05:21
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The Duke 390 is in Australia, I was checking one out the other day at a dealer. Very tiny bike, but looks like heaps of fun.
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Dec 15, 2012 05:46
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n8r posted:The only thing that I liked about Buells were the wheelbase/geometry. The stupid brakes / crazy centralization gimmicks all just seemed like gimmicks to me. Honda has been practicing and preaching mass centralisation since 1992 at the very latest, so it's not like it's a crazy idea EB pulled out of his rear end. On the ZTL thing, the only problem I saw with it was that EB was saying he wanted to build performance bikes, but the rim brake famously couldn't deal with the bike's weight at club-race pace. I gather they work fine on the street or for ordinary track day use, and since that's what I would use a Firebolt/1125 for, they'd suit me fine. The other thing about the rim brakes is that they would probably have worked better if not for the very heavy engine & tranny they had to haul up. Pope Mobile posted:It's only being available in India that are getting me. Unless I read it wrong. And all over Europe and anywhere that isn't the USA, apparently.
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Dec 15, 2012 08:58
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Saga posted:On the ZTL thing, the only problem I saw with it was that EB was saying he wanted to build performance bikes, but the rim brake famously couldn't deal with the bike's weight at club-race pace. I gather they work fine on the street or for ordinary track day use, and since that's what I would use a Firebolt/1125 for, they'd suit me fine. I look at the ZTL brakes as, if Buell had just offered up a conventional plain-as-crackers sportbike with a Sportster boat-anchor in it, only the most jingoist of Jap-haters would have given it the time of day. Most of the engineering gimmicks (mass centralization, oil in the swingarm etc) were direct attempts at workarounds to the disadvantages inherent in having a Sportster powerplant. The ZTL brake was at least one thing Buell could point to and say they weren't doing different just because they had to. (IIRC the plastic faux tank/airbox cover, made more obvious in translucent iMac plastic, was kind of the same.)
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Dec 15, 2012 14:44
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It's been raining the past few days - backing it in made easy. I'm going to die. lol.
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Dec 16, 2012 00:43
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