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Now I'm curious, what is an example of 'resposible' diversion?
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Dec 15, 2012 00:33
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Delta-Wye posted:Now I'm curious, what is an example of 'resposible' diversion? Getting pharmaceutical amphetamines to meth addicts or pharmaceutical opiates to heroin addicts are the obvious options. But really, any activity that lowers the end user price for drugs probably contributes towards harm reduction for addicts. Providing free recreational heroin to Swiss addicts reduced crime and disease among that population. This was done by the government so it wasn't technically diversion, but the general principle is still there - increasing availability and reducing price is a net good. From your last few pages of arguments, you somehow just don't seem to get that limiting the availability of recreational drugs only drives up prices, forces terrible substitutions, and marginalizes addicts. This a medical issue, not one for law enforcement - let doctors deal with the drug problem. AreWeDrunkYet fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Dec 15, 2012 |
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Dec 15, 2012 00:39
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Delta-Wye posted:There, that is the post that started this nonsense. Al Capone is a lovely person, and the Canadians who were selling him booze were also lovely people. Al Capone was a lovely person because he was a violent criminal and corrupt businessman, not because he sold alcohol. Are Americans who buy prescription meds illegally from Canadian pharamcies actually buying them from lovely people? KingEup fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Dec 15, 2012 |
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Dec 15, 2012 02:59
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Delta-Wye posted:
You probably have a very bizarre and skewed vision of what drug dealers are like. gently caress no it should not be criminal for me to grow a plant that does nobody anything but good, and pick it up out of the ground and sell it to someone. Why in the blue gently caress should it be?
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Dec 15, 2012 06:29
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Opiate withdrawal is often fatal - take away someone's scrip and they're often forced to turn to heroin just to stay well.
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Dec 15, 2012 07:05
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:Getting pharmaceutical amphetamines to meth addicts or pharmaceutical opiates to heroin addicts are the obvious options. But really, any activity that lowers the end user price for drugs probably contributes towards harm reduction for addicts. What of the thousands of overdose deaths each year attributed legally prescribed and obtained pharmaceuticals like opioids and benzodiazepines? Each patient likely received information about how to correctly take the medication without dying. The strength and purity of the medications were guaranteed by rigorous quality assurance programs. The patients died anyways. I've worked in pharmacies for over 8 years and I've looked thousands of people in the eye as their addictions spiraled more and more out of control every month, all within the context of the current regulatory environment that puts barriers in place to prevent this. What would a system without barriers look like? If someone thinks addicts are going to make well-informed decisions based on their rational self-interest, they're either incredibly misinformed or dumb as gently caress. The unpleasant reality is that there's only so much that can be done about addiction. You can pass laws, change laws, discard laws, commission studies, develop strategies, educate the population, pay for advertisements, put boots on the ground, smash in doors and put people in jail, but you still won't fix it. From a public policy perspective, the best approach is to focus efforts on harm reduction and treat underlying mental health issues that frequently lead to addiction, but that won't work for everyone. Spoondick fucked around with this message at 07:34 on Dec 15, 2012 |
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Dec 15, 2012 07:11
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Chitin posted:Opiate withdrawal is often fatal - take away someone's scrip and they're often forced to turn to heroin just to stay well. This isn't really true. While unpleasant, withdrawing from opiates will not kill you. If you were in otherwise extremely poor shape otherwise, the added stress to your system could kill you, but that's more akin to dying from the flu or a cold. Alcohol and benzo withdrawal on the other hand can kill you if unmanaged. Opiate withdrawal would just make you wish you were dead.
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Dec 15, 2012 07:36
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Delta-Wye posted:Now I'm curious, what is an example of 'resposible' diversion? Something that involves an undue level of danger, exploitation, and/or violence? I don't even know, all I'm saying is that drug dealing is not immoral in of itself unless you've got some reason for it to be.
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Dec 15, 2012 07:59
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Delta-Wye posted:
Sorry I should have said that I don't think a consensual transaction between a buyer and seller ought to be a criminal offence.
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Dec 15, 2012 11:11
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Broken Machine posted:This isn't really true. While unpleasant, withdrawing from opiates will not kill you. If you were in otherwise extremely poor shape otherwise, the added stress to your system could kill you, but that's more akin to dying from the flu or a cold. Alcohol and benzo withdrawal on the other hand can kill you if unmanaged. Opiate withdrawal would just make you wish you were dead. but isn't the average opiate addict likely to be in poor shape?
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Dec 15, 2012 13:04
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a lovely poster posted:Something that involves an undue level of danger, exploitation, and/or violence? I don't even know, all I'm saying is that drug dealing is not immoral in of itself unless you've got some reason for it to be. Diversion is separate from dealing. Diversion generally involves claiming medical benefits fraudulently on a prescription when what you're actually planning to do is distribution. KingEup posted:Sorry I should have said that I don't think a consensual transaction between a buyer and seller ought to be a criminal offence. Man that's opening up a lot of things. You sure about that? I mean really?
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Dec 15, 2012 15:25
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Yeah, like purchasing assassination services. The assassin might be in trouble for killing him, but you'd be in the clear! It was just a consensual transaction!
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Dec 15, 2012 17:32
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Shade2142 posted:but isn't the average opiate addict likely to be in poor shape? You would have to be in a chronically ill state where anything would kill you. Like a stage IV cancer patient. For all practical intents, no one dies from opiate withdrawal. Overdose, yes, but not withdrawal. You could think of it like having the flu - you feel awful for a few days, and in a week you're back to normal.
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Dec 15, 2012 17:49
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Broken Machine posted:You would have to be in a chronically ill state where anything would kill you. Like a stage IV cancer patient. For all practical intents, no one dies from opiate withdrawal. Overdose, yes, but not withdrawal. You could think of it like having the flu - you feel awful for a few days, and in a week you're back to normal.
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Dec 15, 2012 17:57
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Oh absolutely; it's an awful drug to be addicted to. Really we should have legal meth and opiate clinics where addicts get safe access to clean needles and drugs as well as treatment. That would really cut down on people ending with hep-c, or dopesick junkies committing crimes for their next fix. But that'd make too much sense.
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Dec 15, 2012 18:01
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I'd certainly rather we could transfer those people to weed rather than actively dangerous drugs like 'codones.
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Dec 15, 2012 18:25
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Install Gentoo posted:I'd certainly rather we could transfer those people to weed rather than actively dangerous drugs like 'codones. I'd rather we could transfer them to hot chocolate but that's not how opiate withdrawal works.
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Dec 15, 2012 19:02
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Twiin posted:I'd rather we could transfer them to hot chocolate but that's not how opiate withdrawal works. It's actually possible to treat people and get them off of opiates. And having them have a different kind of drug to use to get over whatever it is in their lives makes it easier to keep them from going back to opiates specifically.
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Dec 15, 2012 19:35
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Install Gentoo posted:It's actually possible to treat people and get them off of opiates. And having them have a different kind of drug to use to get over whatever it is in their lives makes it easier to keep them from going back to opiates specifically. Weed will not 'get someone off' opiates. It's just not like that.
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Dec 15, 2012 19:39
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Yeah when your body is locked in an environment of anxiety, pain and making GBS threads yourself weed can actually make things much worse. Something you can micromanage is the kind of opiate, some medical opioids have much worse withdrawal than heroin. I've never had withdrawals but my mom did when I was a child. It was ugly.
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Dec 15, 2012 19:49
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Warchicken posted:Weed will not 'get someone off' opiates. It's just not like that. That's not really true. Sure, cannabis isn't a magic bullet for opiate addiction but a) many chronic pain patients could benefit from marijuana use, which can allow them to cut down on their opiate painkiller use or to taper off them entirely. b) There is evidence that marijuana use can substitute for addiction to harder drugs- there are case files of hardcore alcoholics who were able to do just that, for instance. I don't see why at least some opiate addicts wouldn't be able to do the same.
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Dec 15, 2012 19:52
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Install Gentoo posted:It's actually possible to treat people and get them off of opiates. And having them have a different kind of drug to use to get over whatever it is in their lives makes it easier to keep them from going back to opiates specifically. Having a dog or a WoW account or whatever also makes it easier for them not to go back to opiates, but that's not the point. Opiate withdrawal is terrible and the idea of transferring people from heroin to weed instead of to oxys or something like that is a pretty severe misjudging of the issue. I've spent a lot of time around dopesick friends and I've never met anyone who wants a joint while they're puking their guts out and pissing themselves. You can transfer someone from heroin to oxy. You can't transfer someone from heroin to pot. You can try to get a former heroin user to smoke pot in the same way you can try to get a former cigarette smoker to eat candy, but that's a very different thing.
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Dec 15, 2012 19:58
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Twiin posted:Having a dog or a WoW account or whatever also makes it easier for them not to go back to opiates, but that's not the point. Opiate withdrawal is terrible and the idea of transferring people from heroin to weed instead of to oxys or something like that is a pretty severe misjudging of the issue. I've spent a lot of time around dopesick friends and I've never met anyone who wants a joint while they're puking their guts out and pissing themselves. You can transfer someone from heroin to oxy. You can't transfer someone from heroin to pot. The only "advice" I can offer this situation is that you're probably right twiin, but the only anecdote I have is one of my good friends was an addict for years, he took nearly everything under the sun and continued to take everything. After rehab he picked up doing drugs again, but stuck with cannabis. He's happy to have that for the long term, and never going back to H. I can't really fault him for liking cannabis to a large extent, after basically doing "everything" everyday for years. Nonsense fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Dec 15, 2012 |
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Dec 15, 2012 20:01
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Nonsense posted:The only "advice" I can offer this situation is that you're probably right twiin, but the only anecdote I have is one of my good friends was an addict for years, he took nearly everything under the sun and continued to take everything. After rehab he picked up doing drugs again, but stuck with cannabis. He's happy to have that for the long term, and never going back to H. I can't really fault him for liking cannabis to a large extent, after basically doing "everything" everyday for years. Right, but that's not transferring. You're not taking an heroin addiction and slowly replacing it with weed in a controlled fashion the way you can with oxys. What your friend did is something else.
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Dec 15, 2012 20:05
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Warchicken posted:Weed will not 'get someone off' opiates. It's just not like that. Uh no. There are treatment programs to get people off of opiates. Those exist. Weed is for after they're clean because let's face it most of these people are doing stuff to distract from their lives and oxycodone et al were just cheap and easy ways to do it. Twiin posted:Having a dog or a WoW account or whatever also makes it easier for them not to go back to opiates, but that's not the point. Opiate withdrawal is terrible and the idea of transferring people from heroin to weed instead of to oxys or something like that is a pretty severe misjudging of the issue. I've spent a lot of time around dopesick friends and I've never met anyone who wants a joint while they're puking their guts out and pissing themselves. You can transfer someone from heroin to oxy. You can't transfer someone from heroin to pot. Yeah you aren't getting the picture. First steps are to get them off of the opiates. Then later when they do still want to get high for whatever reason, weed would be a safer drug rather than diving back in to opiate addiction. Nonsense posted:The only "advice" I can offer this situation is that you're probably right twiin, but the only anecdote I have is one of my good friends was an addict for years, he took nearly everything under the sun and continued to take everything. After rehab he picked up doing drugs again, but stuck with cannabis. He's happy to have that for the long term, and never going back to H. I can't really fault him for liking cannabis to a large extent, after basically doing "everything" everyday for years. Right, exactly. Some people really have drive to be doing something, and they're better off having it be weed where you don't have to worry about overdoses and stuff.
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Dec 15, 2012 20:16
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Yeah. To echo what is being said here, the actual physical dependence is a very small part of a lot of junkie's overall addictions. True, weed is certainly not going to substitute for an opiate. But most opiate addicts will periodically try to clean up, either because they want to or because they simply don't have the means to score. Alcoholics do this too. Without a lot of behavior modification, though, most of them will go right back to their addiction after a few weeks. This is because they are still wrestling with all the problems/mental health issues that drove them to use in the first place. Weed is very helpful in this situation as it just generally softens the blow of how lovely the world can be without really loving you up to the extent that other drugs, even alcohol, can do. For some (but of course not all) addicts this is the crutch they need to mentally work past their post-acute-withdrawal cravings. This is hard for some people to believe as flies straight in the face of the whole gateway drug theory but that theory has been debunked repeatedly and there's a lot of clinical evidence from places like California that shows marijuana "replacement" therapy can definitely work (usually self-discovered by the addict; many of them state that they "never liked weed before" but that after getting clean it helps them stay that way.)
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Dec 15, 2012 21:08
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Install Gentoo posted:Diversion is separate from dealing. Diversion generally involves claiming medical benefits fraudulently on a prescription when what you're actually planning to do is distribution. Fraud is morally objectionable. Selling drugs is not. The behaviour of big tobacco is reprehensible because they lied and deceived their customers, not because they sold them tobacco. quote:
Generally speaking, providing there is no deception or tampering and both parties are consenting adults then yes, in the absence of a regulated system, buying or selling medication (to someone who wants it) should not be a criminal offence. It may not be good idea to buy medication that has not been prescribed for you, but that does not mean it should be criminal. Riven posted:Yeah, like purchasing assassination services. The assassin might be in trouble for killing him, but you'd be in the clear! It was just a consensual transaction! Seek psychological help if you think paying to have someone assassinated is the moral equivalent to, and involves the same kind of consensual transaction as, selling Lipitor to a poor American who can't afford it in their own country. KingEup fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Dec 15, 2012 |
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Dec 15, 2012 21:30
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KingEup posted:Fraud is morally objectionable. Selling drugs is not. Selling drugs gained from diversion almost always involves fraud. Ok you just said it's ok to sell child porn, nuclear weapons, a dog for the other person to gently caress and so on. Those are all consensual transactions, yet they're also bad things! So "consensual transaction between two parties" is not enough of a standard as to whether something is also a transaction that should be legal. Me buying the services of a gunman to assassinate someone is a perfectly consensual transaction. It's also one that is really bad and shouldn't be allowed just because the parties made it consensually. You chose to frame it as "selling weed is ok because its a consensual transaction" and people are showing you why that's not the reason selling weed should be ok.
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Dec 15, 2012 21:45
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Install Gentoo posted:Me buying the services of a gunman to assassinate someone is a perfectly consensual transaction. Except for the third party who didn't consent to being murdered, thus making it not perfectly consensual. 
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Dec 15, 2012 21:52
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Install Gentoo posted:Ok you just said it's ok to sell child porn Please explain how a transaction involving a non-consenting party is a consensual transaction.
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Dec 15, 2012 21:54
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Install Gentoo posted:Ok you just said it's ok to sell child porn, nuclear weapons, a dog for the other person to gently caress and so on. Those are all consensual transactions, yet they're also bad things! So "consensual transaction between two parties" is not enough of a standard as to whether something is also a transaction that should be legal.  Edit: I mean by all means KingEup if you are talking about 'any transactions at all' then I'll let you go ahead and defend that position but that's not the impression I got? TACD fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Dec 15, 2012 |
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Dec 15, 2012 21:55
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RichieWolk posted:Except for the third party who didn't consent to being murdered, thus making it not perfectly consensual. That would be perfectly consensual between buyer and seller. "Sorry I should have said that I don't think a consensual transaction between a buyer and seller ought to be a criminal offence." TACD posted:I don't understand where all this is coming from. He said "buying or selling medication" in the actual post you quoted and I don't see anywhere in the thread where he was talking about anything other than prescriptions and controlled substances. Where are you pulling child porn and WMDs from I asked him if he really meant the exact words he said. "Sorry I should have said that I don't think a consensual transaction between a buyer and seller ought to be a criminal offence." You can buy or sell an awful lot of things. You consensually agree to buy and sell weed and donuts and that's good, but you can also consensually agree to buy and sell awful things which I think means that just having a consensual business transcation isn't good enough to be legal. KingEup posted:Please explain how a transaction involving a non-consenting party is a consensual transaction. Your wording, "a consensual transaction between a buyer and seller". You gave the limits of consensual with the buyer and seller part. The victim of a killing contract is not party to the transaction.
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Dec 15, 2012 22:00
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TACD posted:Edit: I mean by all means KingEup if you are talking about 'any transactions at all' then I'll let you go ahead and defend that position but that's not the impression I got? You got the right impression. I have only ever been discussing transactions that involved 'controlled substances'.
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Dec 15, 2012 22:01
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Install Gentoo posted:I asked him if he really meant the exact words he said. "Sorry I should have said that I don't think a consensual transaction between a buyer and seller ought to be a criminal offence." You can buy or sell an awful lot of things. You are in a thread about cannabis and we were discussing the Controlled Substances Act. Reflect on the context for a moment. KingEup fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Dec 15, 2012 |
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Dec 15, 2012 22:04
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Install Gentoo posted:The victim of a killing contract is not party to the transaction. That is why it's wrong you nitwit (and why something like euthanasia shouldn't be). KingEup fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Dec 15, 2012 |
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Dec 15, 2012 22:06
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KingEup posted:That is why it's wrong you nitwit (and why something like euthanasia shouldn't be). Sorry, but that doesn't make the agreement and purchase any less consensual. No more than buying weed farmed by a slave would make the slaveowner selling the weed into a non-consensual transaction. KingEup posted:You are in a thread about cannabis and we were discussing the Controlled Substances Act. Y'all also said that all drug dealing is totally cool so it was clear that you were expanding the area quite a bit. That's why I asked you if you meant what you said.
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Dec 15, 2012 22:15
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Install Gentoo posted:Y'all also said that all drug dealing is totally cool I seem to recall saying that selling drugs should not be a criminal offence not that all drug dealing is totally cool.
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Dec 15, 2012 22:23
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KingEup posted:I seem to recall saying that selling drugs should not be a criminal offence not that all drug dealing is totally cool. And I say it could depend on the kind of drugs. After all, there's already ton of drugs that can be legally sold by anyone with a business license. Do you want it to be legal to sell any kind of drug period or what? That's what 'selling drugs should not be a criminal offense' would tend to indicate.
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Dec 15, 2012 22:29
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Install Gentoo posted:Sorry, but that doesn't make the agreement and purchase any less consensual. No more than buying weed farmed by a slave would make the slaveowner selling the weed into a non-consensual transaction. Fruit of the poisonous tree. Legal searches aren't legal if they got their probable cause from something illegal, and therefore wouldn't be possible without the illegal search. Consensual transactions aren't consensual if they wouldn't be possible without a non-consensual action.
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Dec 15, 2012 22:43
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Twiin posted:Fruit of the poisonous tree. Legal searches aren't legal if they got their probable cause from something illegal, and therefore wouldn't be possible without the illegal search. Consensual transactions aren't consensual if they wouldn't be possible without a non-consensual action. We could then say that a very significant proportion of the items and services purchased in the the first world are dubiously consensual at best then; and often straight up nonconsensual.
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Dec 15, 2012 22:46
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