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Cream_Filling posted:What else were you expecting? Good point, I'm not sure. It obviously set out to be a book about heel Astartes, and it accomplished that. It just felt like a lot of potential was untapped for such an interesting premise.
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Dec 19, 2012 05:18
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Mechafunkzilla posted:I'm only a little bit into The Siege of Castellax, but it's very entertaining so far. Much, much better than Path of the Renegade, which I just finished and was a joyless slog throughout. I rather enjoyed C.L. Werner's Fantasy stuff, so it's good to see that he's still on form in 40k. He's definitely one of the best B-tier BL authors, and probably the funniest when he wants to be. He's kind of the successor to William King. I sort of like the Chaos vs. Orks match-up if only because neither side really has any plot armor, and the book could legitimately go anywhere.
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Dec 19, 2012 05:19
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berzerkmonkey posted:I disagree - it's less trauma and more everyday life. It would be trauma to us because we can't imagine living in a situation where everything is potentially deadly, but if you grew up with it, it would become day-to-day life. Demiurge4 posted:I have to agree with this, take Fenris for example. It's a constant fight for the stable land that happened to rise out of the sea. Someone already living there? Well we need to live and so its us or them, kill 'em. They revere the Space Wolves as mythical heroes who sometimes show up to take the best of them to a place where they can fight wars forever. It's literally a warrior society that doesn't see war as trauma, but as the greatest pursuit a man can aspire to. berzerkmonkey posted:Exactly - the fluff implies that everyone who is capable of survival on a Death World is a consummate badass. Weakness has been removed from the gene pool simply through Darwinian selection - it ain't scary, it's just life! None of that means they aren't traumatized. A highly relevant quote I once saw was "the conceit of the West is the idea that there is post traumatic trauma. That is is something that only happens when you send people to fight int he third world, and not something their poor at home live in every day" Kids from the really bad parts of the inner city show the same anger issues, distraction, paranoia, etc that we usually see in PTSD vets. And for them it is "just life". The human psyche evolved under a different set of conditions, and isn't set to handle that level of constant stress and threat.
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Dec 19, 2012 06:27
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Fried Chicken posted:None of that means they aren't traumatized. A highly relevant quote I once saw was "the conceit of the West is the idea that there is post traumatic trauma. That is is something that only happens when you send people to fight int he third world, and not something their poor at home live in every day" You could argue that by the year 40,000 people on death worlds would adapt to dealing with such mental stress far better than people today would by simple Darwinian selection. After all, modern humans have existed for only about 250,000 years total, so 10,000-20,000 years is plenty of time for aggressive selection to produce psychological adaptation in humans.
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Dec 19, 2012 06:38
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Darwinian evolution doesn't work that quickly, and adapting to stress seems more Lamarckian than Darwinian anyways. Humans are almost exactly the same today as we were 4,000 years ago. Probably even before that but there aren't any records, so who knows?
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Dec 19, 2012 06:56
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Jacobobb posted:Darwinian evolution doesn't work that quickly, and adapting to stress seems more Lamarckian than Darwinian anyways. Humans are almost exactly the same today as we were 4,000 years ago. Probably even before that but there aren't any records, so who knows? Sure it can. We arent talking about qualitatively new adaptations, just quantitative changes in protein and hormone expression levels. 10,000 years is about 500 human generations. We have experiments showing evolutionary adaptations after about that many generations in micro-organisms like E. coli. Edit: Also Lemarckian evolution isnt a real thing, you should know that. Mr.48 fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Dec 19, 2012 |
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Dec 19, 2012 07:17
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Self selecting organisms that can withstand high concentrations of penecillin and self selecting with peoples' brain biochemistry are totally not even close to being the same thing practically. If it was that easy, why wouldn't we have weeded it out already? After all, it only takes 500 generations, right?
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Dec 19, 2012 07:21
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Jacobobb posted:Self selecting organisms that can withstand high concentrations of penecillin and self selecting with peoples' brain biochemistry are totally not even close to being the same thing practically. If it was that easy, why wouldn't we have weeded it out already? After all, it only takes 500 generations, right? Its in the same ballpark, and its the only real evidence we have at the moment. You on the other hand have NO evidence to back up your position. Also, you should know that I have a degree in biochemistry and am currently finishing another degree in neurobiology. I know this poo poo. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 19, 2012 07:25
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Fine, then pushing that aside. You're saying Games Workshop put that much thought into it 25 years ago, but even now they can't get the timelines/ consistencies in line between books and codicies? If you're just trolling, I admit you got me. People in the grimdark future are supposed to be pretty much 20th century man. This is starting to get into Star Trek levels of gooniness.
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Dec 19, 2012 07:34
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Jacobobb posted:Fine, then pushing that aside. You're saying Games Workshop put that much thought into it 25 years ago, but even now they can't get the timelines/ consistencies in line between books and codicies? If you're just trolling, I admit you got me. People in the grimdark future are supposed to be pretty much 20th century man. This is starting to get into Star Trek levels of gooniness. Not at all, its just not totally implausible for humans who have been surviving under the extreme selective pressures of a death-world to have evolved slightly different psychological responses to stress than what we have today. Again, I'm not saying GW have actually thought about any of this, just that what berzerkmonkey and Demiurge4 posted isnt necessarily wrong.
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Dec 19, 2012 07:41
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Mr.48 posted:
Actually, it is. Lamarck was right to a degree. It just applies to epigenetics and possibly some of the proteome, rather than the genome. For epigenetics the mechanism is believed to be DNA methylation. But that's not really relevant to the thread. Just cool science. Mr.48 posted:Its in the same ballpark, and its the only real evidence we have at the moment. You on the other hand have NO evidence to back up your position. EDIT: I forgot, Cell puts it online for free if it is more that 12 months old, and this just makes the deadline http://www.cell.com/archive?year=2011 December 9th Transgenerational Inheritance of an Acquired Small RNA-Based Antiviral Response in C. elegans http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674(11)01341-9 I always liked the happy face/frowny face on the roundworms Fried Chicken fucked around with this message at 08:23 on Dec 19, 2012 |
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Dec 19, 2012 08:15
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Fried Chicken posted:Actually, it is. Lamarck was right to a degree. It just applies to epigenetics and possibly some of the proteome, rather than the genome. For epigenetics the mechanism is believed to be DNA methylation. Epigenetics only really applies to evolution within the confines of the germ-line, so what Lemarck said really doesn't apply here. I had the misfortune of taking an entire course by a professor who was pushing the whole Lemarckian revival, but he hadn't done any actual research for over 30 years, and was about 40 years out of date on modern genetics. It gets press because its a pretty radical notion, but those pieces usually stretch the implications for evolution pretty far outside the actual science. Edit: ^^^^ Those studies rely on traits being introduced in a whole-organism manner which can impact the germ line. Superficially, it may resemble what Lemarck was talking about, but what he actually wrote is provably wrong. What I'm objecting to is giving him any credit he doesnt deserve by evoking his name. Really, the only reason people do it is because controversy increases readership and citations. Mr.48 fucked around with this message at 08:38 on Dec 19, 2012 |
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Dec 19, 2012 08:20
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Mr.48 posted:Epigenetics only really applies to evolution within the confines of the germ-line, so what Lemarck said really doesn't apply here. quote:It gets press because its a pretty radical notion, but those pieces usually stretch the implications for evolution pretty far outside the actual science.
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Dec 19, 2012 08:29
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Fried Chicken posted:Knowledge of the germ-line and Gregor Mendel's work didn't happen until 37 years after Lamarck's death, so that is a rather unfair criticism. All scientific theories are limited by the other knowledge available at the time Still doesnt make him right though, which is what bothers me when people start smugly throwing around his name, as if it proves something to the mean old Darwinists. poo poo, I've already seen creationists mentioning the so-called "Lemarckian revival" in their arguments against evolution by natural selection. It sounds ridiculous but I've actually seen them saying things like "all those geneticists were wrong about inheritance of acquired traits, what else are they wrong about?" 
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Dec 19, 2012 08:44
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Let's not forget human populations that decided adaptation through natural selection was too slow and dove right into tampering their genetics to fit their new environments, particularly in the case of death worlds. From the onset, the Imperium had strict regarding tampering too heavily with the genome and specially adding extraneous (read: xeno) elements to it, but selective breeding and expression of traits is a-okay.
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Dec 19, 2012 09:56
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Mechafunkzilla posted:Ha! Looks like someone hasn't read Wrath of Iron. Which is great, by the way, and probably the least sympathetic portrayal of Space Marines in the BL. It has an inverted character arc wherein the protagonist gradually becomes a self-loathing murderous rear end in a top hat like the rest of his chapter. Wrath of Iron makes me want to make an Iron Hands army in which the bases are absolutely covered in dead Guardsmen. Unfortunately I am in college and like having two kidneys so I'll nevwr be able to afford to do so.
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Dec 19, 2012 09:56
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The Black Library: Do the Evolution (mandatory soundtrack) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDaOgu2CQtI I never knew Pearl Jam was into 40K, but some of the imagery in that video is dead on. Mr.48 fucked around with this message at 10:26 on Dec 19, 2012 |
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Dec 19, 2012 10:24
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Nephilm posted:Let's not forget human populations that decided adaptation through natural selection was too slow and dove right into tampering their genetics to fit their new environments, particularly in the case of death worlds. From the onset, the Imperium had strict regarding tampering too heavily with the genome and specially adding extraneous (read: xeno) elements to it, but selective breeding and expression of traits is a-okay. There are no wolves on Fenris 
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Dec 19, 2012 10:28
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^^^^ This! The no wolves on Fenris might tie into something I vaguely recall something about Golden men/Stone men being mentioned in the 3rd ed rule book. Golden men where normal humanity and stone men where tweaked genetically and thrown into various hell holes to colonies them.
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Dec 19, 2012 10:56
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Mr.48 posted:The Black Library: Do the Evolution (mandatory soundtrack) Also, I just finished Pariah and boy, that was a pretty good book. Yeah, it did start off a little slow, but from the point of the raid on Maze Undue it was pretty much non-stop. I already can't wait until the next book. Also, I do believe this is the first time that a 40K story has really referenced anything from our current timeframe - the Soviet rocket toy. "What does that mean?" "No one remembers anymore..." Next up, Angel Exterminatus. I need to start making more time to read - I'm starting to fall behind here.
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Dec 19, 2012 15:37
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berzerkmonkey posted:I don't really see any 40K relation, but this is a pretty cool video (though I have to admit I do not like Pearl Jam one bit.) Lots of books have referenced wars or other occurences from the first 2 millenia. Often the names are changed slightly though.
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Dec 19, 2012 18:53
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Mikojan posted:Lots of books have referenced wars or other occurences from the first 2 millenia. Often the names are changed slightly though. One of the things I enjoy is trying to figure out who they are referencing. Sometimes it is real easy like "Crom's New Army" being a reference to Oliver Cromwell and the New Model Army. Some of them are a lot harder,like figuring out Pertuburo was a huge fan of Filippo Brunelleschi in Angel Exterminatus. (They call him Firenzii, which translates to "Florence", his home city, talk about his work in geometry and the iron cave - his famous iron dome - the fresco installed on the wall is from the dome, and one of the first returns for googling Brunelleschi's art is this, which has Pussin's Adoration of the Magi as one of its links.  Compare that to the description of another of Perturbo's paintings quote:work of a seated woman and her child in the centre of a circle of admirers while a great temple was rebuilt against a backdrop of fighting horsemen But yeah, just one of the games I like 
Fried Chicken fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Dec 19, 2012 |
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Dec 19, 2012 19:08
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Fried Chicken posted:None of that means they aren't traumatized. A highly relevant quote I once saw was "the conceit of the West is the idea that there is post traumatic trauma. That is is something that only happens when you send people to fight int he third world, and not something their poor at home live in every day" Fiction, and pulp like 40k in particular, isn't the historical retelling of actual events. It's fiction. They're not portrayed as traumatized children because they're meant to be heroes from ancient epics/legendary knights in space, and dealing directly with trauma would mostly detract from that idea. It's also referencing historical groups like ancient Greeks (e.g., the Spartans) and medieval knights, both of which were known to start training at a very young age. The traumatized children angle can be played up to the degree that it's useful or relevant to the work you're writing. And the universe is loosely constructed enough that you can basically do almost anything you want once you take into account the many forms of handwavy techno-magic, the unreliability of basically everything due to the corruption of history over time, and the massive variance and diversity within the imperium itself. The fun part about 40k is that, even within the brand, individual writers have a ton of artistic freedom to take the story and characters almost anywhere they want without fear of some gross overarching nerd continuity beyond a handful of key facts and the larger question of tone.
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Dec 19, 2012 19:37
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The references to earlier human history (our present and backwards) are pretty cool, and I got the Soviet rocket toy reference in Pariah almost instantly, but a lot of other stuff is pretty opaque to me. I never would have gotten the stuff FriedChicken picked up on 
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Dec 19, 2012 21:39
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On the subject of space marines and mental trauma, keep in mind that they don't even have human brains. Like, the process of becoming a space marines involves substantial brain surgery and the implantation of new brain parts.
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Dec 19, 2012 22:23
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berzerkmonkey posted:I don't really see any 40K relation, but this is a pretty cool video (though I have to admit I do not like Pearl Jam one bit.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDaOgu2CQtI&t=189s I dont think its intentional but the imagery is pretty grimdark.
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Dec 19, 2012 22:36
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Mechafunkzilla posted:On the subject of space marines and mental trauma, keep in mind that they don't even have human brains. Like, the process of becoming a space marines involves substantial brain surgery and the implantation of new brain parts. While this is literally correct, the impression Lexicanum gave me was that the geneseed organs that interface with the brain were mostly additive, intended (like most of the other geneseed organs) to augment functions in specific and relatively narrow ways. Unless it says differently elsewhere, it's not like a Marine has been lobotomized or turned into Phineas Gage or anything, nor is there an implant listed whose given function includes changing personality. I'd wager that the drugs, hypnotherapy and pedagogical indoctrination are much closer to the root cause of cognitive differences in Marines than any architectural change in the brain. vvv The articles I was reading mentioned that functionality but made it sound like the catalepsean node was able to do it just by techno-magic, rather than needing to carve the brain up too. If anyone has more details I'd love to read them. JerryLee fucked around with this message at 08:11 on Dec 20, 2012 |
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Dec 20, 2012 03:50
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Actually they deliberately seperate the left and right hemispheres so the marine can sleep with one side while the other is awake for a few weeks. Yeah.
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Dec 20, 2012 06:20
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I'm reading Space Marine at the moment. While it is pretty out of date I haven't read another book that goes into the detail of the transformation from human to astartes. Watson really focuses on the the marines interpretations of the changes going on. They also are really eager to get naked.
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Dec 20, 2012 10:09
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Big Willy Style posted:I'm reading Space Marine at the moment. While it is pretty out of date I haven't read another book that goes into the detail of the transformation from human to astartes. Watson really focuses on the the marines interpretations of the changes going on. They also are really eager to get naked.
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Dec 20, 2012 17:54
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Big Willy Style posted:I'm reading Space Marine at the moment. While it is pretty out of date I haven't read another book that goes into the detail of the transformation from human to astartes. Watson really focuses on the the marines interpretations of the changes going on. They also are really eager to get naked. ADB was spitballing on his blog a while back about wanting to do the book about the creation of a new chapter. Everything from the administratium commissioning it, to the search of a suitable planet to draw their applicants from, selecting the geneseed strain that would be used, the entire transformation process, having veterans from other chapters come in and train them, getting the forgeworlds set up to arm, armor, and provision them, how they would select hierarchy given they were all equally new, and their first deployment. I hope he gets to write it some day. I'd love to read his take on all of that.
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Dec 20, 2012 18:16
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Fried Chicken posted:I hope he gets to write it some day. I'd love to read his take on all of that.
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Dec 20, 2012 20:51
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My dick would pretty much explode if ADB got to write something like that.
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Dec 20, 2012 21:28
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Just got started on Betrayer. So far, so awesome. Trust ADB to give depth to mosnters and make them entertaining, tragic and freaking _epic_. Very nice to see Lorgar as more of a badass and gleeful architect of the whole catastrophe instead of a weepy spurned zealot.
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Dec 20, 2012 23:19
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Huh, so I just read Pariah. And I absolutely loved the end where Ravenor explains that Gregor has been declared Diabolus Extremis for a century Oh yeah. also what is the deal with Deathrow?
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Dec 21, 2012 11:14
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Affi posted:also what is the deal with Deathrow? He's a Space Marine. More specifically, by saying 'I'm Alpharius', he's identifying himself as a member of the traitor Alpha Legion. Though their whole deal, if you read Legion, is that they turned to Horus's side under the urging of an alien cabal who forsaw that it would be for the greater good of the galaxy if Horus won the Heresy. Whether that means the Legion stayed loyal in the ten thousand years since, or succumbed to heresy is another matter. Guess we'll find out!. In summary though, Deathrow is a seriously bad dude and if Eisenhorn is using him then he's gotten into some dark-rear end poo poo. Or darker poo poo.
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Dec 21, 2012 14:12
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Mowglis Haircut posted:He's a Space Marine. More specifically, by saying 'I'm Alpharius', he's identifying himself as a member of the traitor Alpha Legion. Though their whole deal, if you read Legion, is that they turned to Horus's side under the urging of an alien cabal who forsaw that it would be for the greater good of the galaxy if Horus won the Heresy. Whether that means the Legion stayed loyal in the ten thousand years since, or succumbed to heresy is another matter. Guess we'll find out!. Yeah it looks that way. It fits though what with Alpha Legions possible hidden motives, their preferred modus operandi.. I .. Like that development. Also Pariah was definitely the best of the Abnett I've read. Just Eisenhorns confrontation with a traitor marine in the ecclesiary building.. brilliant stuff. And the Smiling One was suitably nasty. I have one last question though. Why didn't Medea and Patience recognize eachother?
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Dec 21, 2012 15:51
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Affi posted:I have one last question though. Why didn't Medea and Patience recognize eachother? They never worked together, you're probably thinking of Kara Swole, who did work with Eisenhorn for a while. Patience was only picked up by Ravenor a long while after Eisenhorn dropped off the map.
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Dec 21, 2012 18:43
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Affi posted:Yeah it looks that way. It fits though what with Alpha Legions possible hidden motives, their preferred modus operandi.. I .. Like that development. Also Pariah was definitely the best of the Abnett I've read. Just Eisenhorns confrontation with a traitor marine in the ecclesiary building.. brilliant stuff. And the Smiling One was suitably nasty. Medea semi-retired from Eisenhorn's crew by the time Ravenor came into the picture. Patience was recruited by Ravenor in his series of stories. So in as far as it's ever been shown Medea and Patience never interacted with each other. (I could be wrong though as I'm still new to WH40k) :EFB:
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Dec 21, 2012 18:48
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I re-read Pariah since I seemed to not really 'get it' the last time and I admit it is awesome. Can't wait for the next one, curious about this Alpharius chap and hoe Eisenhorn picked him up. Team Eisenhorn checking in.
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Dec 22, 2012 13:56
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