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euphronius posted:Also a question: what the hell was the City of Dust? I wanna know this too, I was kinda confused as to what it was.
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Jan 13, 2013 08:09
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Only the bad authors in their bad books write about the loyalist segments of traitor legions that miraculously survived the Istvaan purge.Demon Of The Fall posted:I wanna know this too, I was kinda confused as to what it was. I believe is a construct that mirrors Mab in the warp.
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Jan 13, 2013 08:17
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EyeRChris posted:It never existed In A Thousand Sons, it was stated that the Legion often fought in other expedition fleets, alongside other Legions. There's a big chance that there were some Sons who were on the other side of the galaxy when Prospero fell.
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Jan 13, 2013 08:48
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The attack on Ultramar happened after the Council of Nikea, at which point Magnus recalled the legion to Prospero. Word of the events at Nikea had already reached Ultramar for some time when the Word Bearers initiated their assault on the Five Hundred Worlds.
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Jan 13, 2013 09:06
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You know, the prologue about Colchis burning made me think - pretty much all Traitors Legions (except maybe Word Bearers?) had loyalists who had to be eliminated. After the Traitors lose the Siege of Terra, the Imperium goes and destroy their homeworlds. But is it stated anywhere that the population on this worlds had been corrupted as profoundly as their respective Legions?
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Jan 13, 2013 10:05
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Azran posted:Haven't read either of those either. gently caress you for reminidng me that book existed you oval office.
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Jan 13, 2013 17:27
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What about the abomination known as Battle for the Abyss?
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Schneider Heim posted:Terrible. Silver Skulls are unremarkable and Huron is a Saturday Morning Cartoon villain. I thought it was okay, albeit forgettable. It suffers the same way any book suffers when it has a named big bad. The Silver Skulls are going to kill Huron. That is there whole goal, whole motivation of the characters. But, obviously, they can't kill Huron because he is canon, so they fail. They might win the battle, I forget to be honest, but Huron gets away. I only picked it up because I had hardly read anything with Huron and his band in it, so I enjoyed it for that. If you are familiar with them, maybe it was a disappointment. Also, it might have helped that I imagined Huron's voice to sound just like Darth Sion from KOTOR 2. In other news, "The Greater Good", a new Caiphas Cain book is out. I'm a sucker for that series, and am nerdy enough to have laughed out loud a few times reading them, so I can't wait to get started.
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Jan 13, 2013 17:44
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Azran posted:You know, the prologue about Colchis burning made me think - pretty much all Traitors Legions (except maybe Word Bearers?) had loyalists who had to be eliminated.
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Jan 13, 2013 18:48
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Azran posted:You know, the prologue about Colchis burning made me think - pretty much all Traitors Legions (except maybe Word Bearers?) had loyalists who had to be eliminated. After the Traitors lose the Siege of Terra, the Imperium goes and destroy their homeworlds. But is it stated anywhere that the population on this worlds had been corrupted as profoundly as their respective Legions? Not that I'm aware of, no. At least not universally. But the reminder of the existence of those legions had to be erased.
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Jan 13, 2013 20:33
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Oh.  Thanks for the answers.Regarding named characters in books - if you've ever read the Warmachine and Hordes army books, you'll notice they have the same problem. Since it's part of the marketing factor, I guess you can't go and kill your named characters due to people liking them and wanting to play them on the tabletop. But at the same time, you've got the people who play Heresy matches even though, from a lore perspective, the Heresy is done and gone so  What I mean to say is - if books were the primary objective, I'm pretty sure named characters would die here and there. But since books and videogames are made with the intent of selling more minis, I don't see that happening beyond the odd Abnett book.
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Jan 13, 2013 23:34
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They killed the gently caress out of Tycho and Eldrad Ulthran (Eldrad got better though...). Grom the Paunch was a historical "dead" character in Fantasy and the dude what deaded him was later blinded and a new mini released for him.
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Jan 14, 2013 03:46
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Arquinsiel posted:They killed the gently caress out of Tycho and Eldrad Ulthran (Eldrad got better though...). Grom the Paunch was a historical "dead" character in Fantasy and the dude what deaded him was later blinded and a new mini released for him. I thought Tycho was originally the name some guy gave his Captain in a White Dwarf Battle Report. In-game, he died, and so they kept that as "canon"?
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Jan 14, 2013 05:30
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Azran posted:I thought Tycho was originally the name some guy gave his Captain in a White Dwarf Battle Report. In-game, he died, and so they kept that as "canon"? Wish they'd kept that methodology with the Storm of Chaos.
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Jan 14, 2013 05:46
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Azran posted:I thought Tycho was originally the name some guy gave his Captain in a White Dwarf Battle Report. In-game, he died, and so they kept that as "canon"? Nah it was a big game at GW HQ during the War for Armageddon. There was a massive death company painted up and led by Death Company Tycho. There's a brilliant bit of background I read in a WD not too long ago (it's the one with the summary) where Lemartes slowly watches Tycho's sanity leaving as he succumbs to the visions of Sanguinius. Absolutely crackin' bit of what they should be doing with the universe. That whole issue is golden actually. Seeing as it's now phenomenally old and inaccessible (unless it's in the BA book?), I could potentially scan the story - ill ask the mods.
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Jan 14, 2013 13:57
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What lenoon said. It was pretty awesome and comparatively sensible character development for a GW story.
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Jan 14, 2013 15:19
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I just finished Gunheads last night. I liked it quite a bit compared to staring blankly at a wall while I wait to fall asleep. The characters were pretty much forgettable, aside from the commanding General. The action was good though, and it fleshed out experiences within Imperial Guard tanks really well. I loved all of the details the author put into the book though. Like how firing the main cannon was a foot trigger and the autocannon was a thumb trigger. Little things like that really make books fun. Now I'm on to some professional reading I've been putting off, even though I just grabbed Fifteen Hours and another Ciaphas Cain novel.
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Jan 14, 2013 15:38
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Impaired Casing posted:I thought it was okay, albeit forgettable. It suffers the same way any book suffers when it has a named big bad. The Silver Skulls are going to kill Huron. That is there whole goal, whole motivation of the characters. But, obviously, they can't kill Huron because he is canon, so they fail. They might win the battle, I forget to be honest, but Huron gets away. None of the Silver Skulls were particularly likeable or good in a way that made me care, and Huron did me no favors with his portrayal. He was unpredictable and dangerous because we're told he is, and the dialogue involving him was quite deplorable. I picked it up for the same reasons as you did. I know that he's this pirate Chaos Marine and all, but I got more mileage out of Blood Reaver, or even that stupid brooding short story about the Mantis Warriors in the Badab War. Also, I had a huge problem with Sarah Cawkwell's prose. I don't know, I think it was the overlong sentences that she abuses. * * * Some books that I finished lately: Relentless - Ended up good. I was kind of miffed that Ward mostly fell apart on his own and Becket merely cleaned up his mess afterward, but that was a rather good end. I liked the section-by-section battle reports, but the subplots didn't work, though. Lord of the Night - Sahaal was great. Less tortured than Talos and his crew, and surprisingly more... vulnerable? I thought his relationship with Curze was great, made me care quite a bit despite having read a lot about the Primarch already. Mita's breakdown was one of the best moments in the book, too. Ending was rushed, though. Next up is the Ravenor omnibus. Lily Catts fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Jan 14, 2013 |
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Jan 14, 2013 15:48
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Ravenor Rogue spoilers: What was up with Frauka's continued exposure to Zael making him lose his blankness? I thought the whole deal with blanks was they had no soul which is why their presence makes even non-psykers feel uncomfortable. Is this artistic license on Abnett's part, or do blanks actually have a vestigial warp presence that can be drawn out?
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Jan 17, 2013 08:19
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Contingency Plan posted:Ravenor Rogue spoilers: What was up with Frauka's continued exposure to Zael making him lose his blankness? I thought the whole deal with blanks was they had no soul which is why their presence makes even non-psykers feel uncomfortable. Is this artistic license on Abnett's part, or do blanks actually have a vestigial warp presence that can be drawn out? Abnett's treatment of blanks is, in my opinion, pretty divergent from what little we see in the game fluff. I'm pretty sure it's just artistic license, but I also really don't like his treatment of the whole thing. Stuff like the Culexis assassins are supposed to be pure evil soulless abominations. Versus the mostly sympathetic, afflicted but human figures Abnett makes them. The way they're used in those books eventually just becomes like a James Bond gadget - hit a switch, anti-magic aura. Hit another switch, perfectly normal. It negates the very creeping and unstoppable danger of warp magic that's a part of the setting, turning it into just a technical challenge to be overcome. It works for the style of the series, which is relatively light on the gothic and horror elements of 40k, but I think it's just a little too convenient and gimmicky. On the other hand, there is a possible distinction between a 'blank' 'untouchable', who has some latent anti-warp ability, and a 'pariah' or 'blacksoul', which is the same thing but much more so. But I'm not really sure on this, since the game tends to be intentionally vague about the whole thing. I prefer the idea that, severed from the warp, pariahs are all inhuman sociopaths, and that harnessing them requires a massive brainwashing organization like the Imperial assassins or the Heresy-era Sisters of Silence. But that there's a lesser form, the 'blank,' which is basically a sort of variant latent psyker that only shows its abilities in one way, sort of like the 'mirror psyker' variant also introduced by Abnett. But I'm basically making this last bit up.
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Jan 17, 2013 14:33
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In my head a Blank is just someone who has an undetectable warp presence or a dampening effect on the local area while a Pariah is a warp hole that sucks the warp essence out of nearby people. Really though, this doesn't work. Abnett and Mitchell just sort of re-imagined the Pariah concept to make use of their abilities.
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Jan 17, 2013 14:56
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Cream_Filling posted:Stuff like the Culexis assassins are supposed to be pure evil soulless abominations. Versus the mostly sympathetic, afflicted but human figures Abnett makes them. I think the Culexus Temple does additional crazy poo poo to it's blanks to make them nothing but soulless killing machines. There's an old bit of fluff when an eldar farseer says "we all have blanks, but only humans are so evil as to create such a soulless being" or something - essentially they're weaponized blanks, making them a hell of a lot nastier than the others we see - Bequin, Frauka and poo poo..... Jurgen! That's the name. Edit: drat the Culexus are the cooooolest. Just writing about this made me track down the old second ed codex assassins, now I want a Culexus and Eversor models. Also, Nemesis was a good book. lenoon fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Jan 17, 2013 |
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Jan 17, 2013 15:03
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Eldar blanks are actually worse. They've sold their soul to Slaanesh to be absolutely loving bent on the tabletop.
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Jan 17, 2013 15:15
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The scene in Pariah where the main character was being tested was interesting in this regard. There seemed to be different levels of blanks.
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Jan 17, 2013 15:19
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So I'm reading Betrayer right now. Here's a reason why I love ADB: he can explain away 40K silliness in one paragraph. One of the major criticisms of 40K (and especially in the tabletop game) is that you have all of this technology to shoot people in the face from afar, yet everything is hand-to-hand combat. He states that people still don't trust and don't want to rely on the technology prevalent in the Dark Age of Technology, so combat has come full circle to dudes bashing other dudes with swords. And the best thing is that I can accept that explanation with no problem. I love you ADB.  Also, I like how he's writing the World Eaters - They only implanted the Butcher's Nails in a last ditch effort to be close to their Primarch, because Angron never felt any kinship towards them, and even hated them for taking him away from those he felt a true connection to. Unlike most of the other Traitor legions, who fall because they're just kind of assholes anyway, the World Eaters are a Legion that falls because they try to get closer to their father. Very tragic.
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Jan 17, 2013 15:22
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berzerkmonkey posted:So I'm reading Betrayer right now. Here's a reason why I love ADB: he can explain away 40K silliness in one paragraph. One of the major criticisms of 40K (and especially in the tabletop game) is that you have all of this technology to shoot people in the face from afar, yet everything is hand-to-hand combat. He states that people still don't trust and don't want to rely on the technology prevalent in the Dark Age of Technology, so combat has come full circle to dudes bashing other dudes with swords. Is that really that good a justification, though? They might as well just say "future space armor is so good that shots from anything that won't utterly destroy the whole area (and thus render it worthless) just bounce off until you're in close range." The idea of hand-to-hand combat also makes a little more sense if you think of Space Marines as actual space marines: that is, troops originally specialized to fight within the claustrophobic confines of spaceships. Maybe add in the classic "any shot that can pierce their armor will also pierce the hull/bulkheads" argument. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Jan 17, 2013 |
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Jan 17, 2013 15:29
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Cream_Filling posted:Is that really that good a justification, though? They might as well just say "future space armor is so good that shots from anything that won't utterly destroy the whole area (and thus render it worthless) just bounce off until you're in close range." Is it good justification? Probably not. Is it a good attempt that I can rationalize? Yes. He also goes on to say that Space Marines are not soldiers (especially the World Eaters), but rather old-fashioned Warriors - meant to be in the thick of battle, not in a ranged firefight.
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Jan 17, 2013 19:02
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Cream_Filling posted:Is that really that good a justification, though? They might as well just say "future space armor is so good that shots from anything that won't utterly destroy the whole area (and thus render it worthless) just bounce off until you're in close range." Space Marines are terror weapons, when they show up they get in your face and cave it in imaginative ways and this scares the poo poo out of people. If they were all artillery experts they wouldn't have the same effect, and they're brutally effective in close combat thanks to their armour and weapons. As for everyone else, I dunno, the Imperial guard just kind of do the bayonet thing.
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Jan 17, 2013 19:10
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There are also void shields which in many cases make long range artillery moot.
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Jan 17, 2013 19:27
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When your armor is tougher than the cover around you but not tough enough that you can stand around to get shot at forever, it makes sense to switch to close combat if it'd give you an edge over your enemy. It's also a faster way to clear the enemy than a shoot-out.
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Jan 17, 2013 19:51
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Demiurge4 posted:Space Marines are terror weapons, when they show up they get in your face and cave it in imaginative ways and this scares the poo poo out of people. If they were all artillery experts they wouldn't have the same effect, and they're brutally effective in close combat thanks to their armour and weapons. Space Marines have artillery. Or rather, they have space artillery like bombardment cannons, which is even better. In general, though, if they send in the Marines, then it's because they're fighting in a city or a space hulk or some other built-up area where just blowing the whole thing up from orbit isn't an option. Otherwise, you'd just blow everything up instead of sending in troops at all. Also, power weapons are a pretty rad technology to justify having swords in space since they basically laugh at all armor. Not a lot of guns can match that. The Guard has the massed armor thing going for them (depending entirely on what guard regiment). OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Jan 17, 2013 |
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Jan 17, 2013 20:09
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Space marines also appear to be able deflect bolter shots with their swords at least some the time.
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Jan 17, 2013 20:17
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euphronius posted:Space marines also appear to be able deflect bolter shots with their swords at least some the time. Also Eisenhorn does that
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Jan 17, 2013 21:13
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Good to see Barbarisater still going strong and slicing up Word Bearers.
Demon Of The Fall fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Jan 17, 2013 |
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Jan 17, 2013 21:51
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Affi posted:Also Eisenhorn does that
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Jan 17, 2013 22:13
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Arquinsiel posted:Doesn't he have a totally not a lightsaber though? He has a force sword.
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Jan 17, 2013 22:47
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A force sword that is unique in a way that just so happens to totally make it a lightsaber. e: it kind of matters because there's a big difference between holding an ordinary sword that just so happens to have a magic cutting edge and holding a sword that literally has no mass or weight or anything (but which might suddenly meet massive resistance). The person wielding this sword would have to learn a completely different and probably quite counter-intuitive fighting style. In other words, there's a reason Star Wars fiction writers tend to deal with the question of 'Why doesn't everyone carry lightsabers?' with the answer 'Don't be stupid, unless you are a Jedi you are not going to be able to wave this thing around without cutting your own legs off'. e2: and yeah, he has his lightsaber for a while and then loses a unique piece of dark age technology Alchenar fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Jan 17, 2013 |
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Jan 17, 2013 22:53
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Alchenar posted:A force sword that is unique in a way that just so happens to totally make it a lightsaber. No he lost that sword in like the first book. (the one that was an actual lightsaber)
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Jan 17, 2013 22:55
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Nephilm posted:He has a force sword. He refers to his first sword, the one that gets destroyed against Cherubael, as an antique power sword from the Dark Age of Technology with a blade of pure energy. He never talks about how he got his hands on a weapon probably worth more than a planet.
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Jan 17, 2013 22:55
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Ah, I remember that one now.
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Jan 17, 2013 23:03
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In any case, Barbarisater is far superior to an energy sword. It's not just the throughput of your emitter that matters when you're fighting the warp, it's also how real the thing you're using is.
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Jan 18, 2013 00:26
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