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Razoghar posted:
The Dragon is the (male) champion of the Creator, the one who does things for the Creator because the Creator "WILL TAKE NO PART" (as it said in TEotW). There's a female counterpart to the Dragon who would be born instead if an Age needed a woman doing the things instead of a man. The Dark One has a similar champion - in the 2nd Age and the 3rd Age it was Ishamael/Moridin - but the Dark One is also willing to act personally, provided that there's a hole in his prison. IIRC channeling the One Power is channeling some of the Creator's power, like the True Power is channeling some of the Dark One's power, so the Dragon can't be the Creator.
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Jan 13, 2013 17:28
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zonohedron posted:The Dragon is the (male) champion of the Creator, the one who does things for the Creator because the Creator "WILL TAKE NO PART" (as it said in TEotW). There's a female counterpart to the Dragon who would be born instead if an Age needed a woman doing the things instead of a man. I think Jordan actually got asked if this was the case and said he was uninterested in exploring this. I don't think you can say this is true: I think based on the evidence the Dragon is the same soul every time, and souls in the WOT universe have a gender (and either can or can't channel). zonohedron posted:IIRC channeling the One Power is channeling some of the Creator's power, like the True Power is channeling some of the Dark One's power, so the Dragon can't be the Creator. The One Power is essentially a battery the creator left to power the Wheel.
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Jan 13, 2013 17:39
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zonohedron posted:The Dragon is the (male) champion of the Creator, the one who does things for the Creator because the Creator "WILL TAKE NO PART" (as it said in TEotW). There's a female counterpart to the Dragon who would be born instead if an Age needed a woman doing the things instead of a man. I didn't realize there was a female version of the Dragon. And i understand the Nae'Blis being the champion of the Dark One so thank you for those two answers. I still question the part about the Creator. Wouldn't the creators presence have been noticed when rand and the dark one face off in their Creation match of what may or may not be duel? He said he could feel the Dark One's Presence if not form. So where is the Creator, i find it hard to imagine that the Creator would let the Dragon form a world based on his own likings, even though he doesnt want to interfere. Or am i just thinking to hard?
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Jan 13, 2013 17:39
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Razoghar posted:I didn't realize there was a female version of the Dragon. And i understand the Nae'Blis being the champion of the Dark One so thank you for those two answers. At one point Rand remembers Lew Therin's musings about the Creator: that the Creator essentially planted worlds like scattering seeds and let them grow or die as they would without much care for any particular world.
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Jan 13, 2013 17:41
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evilweasel posted:At one point Rand remembers Lew Therin's musings about the Creator: that the Creator essentially planted worlds like scattering seeds and let them grow or die as they would without much care for any particular world. Yea I remember that part, i think lanfear also said something of the sort in either "Dragon Reborn" or Great Hunt. But even so, the void that Rand and Shai'Tan were in were worlds or realities of their creation, so both of them had the power to create, we know that the Dark One does, but apparently the Dragon does also. And again the little catch phrase, the create sealed the dark one at the begining of time. And i suppose humans can match the creator if they can seal/break the bore. I just feel like there is something missing
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Jan 13, 2013 17:54
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Razoghar posted:Yea I remember that part, i think lanfear also said something of the sort in either "Dragon Reborn" or Great Hunt. But even so, the void that Rand and Shai'Tan were in were worlds or realities of their creation, so both of them had the power to create, we know that the Dark One does, but apparently the Dragon does also. And again the little catch phrase, the create sealed the dark one at the begining of time. And i suppose humans can match the creator if they can seal/break the bore. I just feel like there is something missing Humans can't match the creator just because they can break and seal the bore. The Creator could overwhelm the Dark One and imprison him: humans can merely bore holes in the prison and reseal them.
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Jan 13, 2013 17:57
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Razoghar posted:Yea I remember that part, i think lanfear also said something of the sort in either "Dragon Reborn" or Great Hunt. But even so, the void that Rand and Shai'Tan were in were worlds or realities of their creation, so both of them had the power to create, we know that the Dark One does, but apparently the Dragon does also. And again the little catch phrase, the create sealed the dark one at the begining of time. And i suppose humans can match the creator if they can seal/break the bore. I just feel like there is something missing The issue with the idea of the Dragon being the creator is that the Dragon is, himself, part of the cyclic turning of the wheel. While Rand steps outside of the system during his battle with the Dark One, he remains an intrinsic part of the created system. Even though the action largely takes place within the relatively closed cosmic system, there was still a point at which creation, and the wheel, had yet to begin moving. The initial "push" to start the whole thing spinning has to come from outside the system; the creator provides the initial force that begins that process. It structured the universe, the rules of the wheel, and put the energy source that drove it in place. It also sealed the presence of the dark one outside that cycle. Now the iterative Dragons maintain that system, and prevent inevitable incursions by the Dark One. edit: And to be clear Rand doesn't engage in a reconstruction of the whole system. He's not recreating the wheel, he's just shaping the output of its turning. There isn't a real indication that he builds a new universe. He just constructs a version of his universe in which it's cut off from the external force of chaos that is the Dark One. What's interesting is that he thinks of it as "killing" the Dark One, but given the wheel's extreme need for balance, who's to say that the next turning wouldn't be structured so that another (or the same) force rises to take (or retake) its place? VanillaGorilla fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Jan 13, 2013 |
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Jan 13, 2013 18:02
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evilweasel posted:Humans can't match the creator just because they can break and seal the bore. The Creator could overwhelm the Dark One and imprison him: humans can merely bore holes in the prison and reseal them. Lanfear as well as few of the other forsaken mention that Humans can match the Creator through using Sa'Angreal like both of the Chondale(or something like that, the ones they used to cleanse the taint). I imagine if they did try it would be like Raistlin replacing Takhisis in DragonLance. And there is also a lot of speculation that Rand can sort of Channel the Pattern now. So i kind of envision Rand having a Role like Fizban/Paladine. (sorry if you havn't read this series and this makes no sense) So even though he's attained the power of Godhood, he is still humble, but realizes that the Light doesnt exist it is merely a way for people to have hope in this idea. Maybe i need to sit down and get my thoughts together lol Razoghar fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Jan 13, 2013 |
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Jan 13, 2013 18:05
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Razoghar posted:
Although, in fairness, just because Lanfear and a few Forsaken say or think this doesn't mean it's actually true. The whole series is filled with people getting wrong/mangled information.
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Jan 13, 2013 18:26
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Fintilgin posted:Although, in fairness, just because Lanfear and a few Forsaken say or think this doesn't mean it's actually true. The whole series is filled with people getting wrong/mangled information. Very true, just like everyone thought Mat had to blow the Horn, or that the Heroes of the Horn would fight for the Dark Friends.
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Jan 13, 2013 18:27
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evilweasel posted:Humans can't match the creator just because they can break and seal the bore. The Creator could overwhelm the Dark One and imprison him: humans can merely bore holes in the prison and reseal them. That's not true though. Rand didn't just seal the Dark One's prison, he rebuilt it. He also could have easily destroyed the Dark One if he wanted to. I don't think Rand is the Creator, the line Razoghar is referring is that the Creator imprisoned the Dark One at the time of creation. It doesn't say the Creator imprisoned the Dark One in every turn of the wheel. I don't think the fact that Rand imprisoned him implies that he is the Creator.
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Jan 13, 2013 18:56
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The way I read Rand's comment on the Dark One not really being the enemy, is that is has to do with choice. Eliminating all evil from the world would also eliminate all real choice from the world, as Rand discovered in his vision. Ultimately the Dark One himself is relatively small and insignificant, he really only has as much power as the people of the world choose to give him (by breaking open his prison, choosing to serve him etc.). By sealing him away Rand keeps the wheel turning, but also allows mankind to live in a world where they have a meaningful choice between right and wrong. At least that's how I read it.
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Jan 13, 2013 20:15
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One simple consideration. The Dark One is most likely not the equal of the Creator, but a necessarily sentient force, intrinsically part of Creation in order to supply the dynamism, the greed, violence and ambition necessary for the world to evolve. Thus, the Dragon, along with his female counterpart(RJ mentioned before that this would be an entirely distinct Hero, and not the Dragon, presumably a woman would have to possess different qualities and suffer different trials) is the actual counterpart to the Dark One. Presumably all these parts can be replaced if the need arises, like if the Dragon manages to get to that point of power, and actually deletes the Dark One, then the Pattern would supply an alternative. That is probably what Padan Fain really was doing there. If Rand had gone through with destroying the Dark One, he'd be the ready replacement, and Mat would have gotten there too late to kill Fain before his final metamorphosis.
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Jan 13, 2013 20:18
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I was a little annoyed about how pointless the Power-wrought weapons turned out to be, especially with all the Darkhounds running around explicitly able to be killed by them and yet, save Perrin's kill to show the wrought weapons can end them, none were - actually, were any killed bar that one before the wolves came back? Also Ituralde is definitely the best Great Captain.
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Jan 13, 2013 20:25
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Man, it really sucks that there wasn't enough notes for Sanderson to write the Mat/Tuon Outrigger novels. That would have been an great addition to the WoT world.
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Jan 13, 2013 20:53
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keiran_helcyan posted:The way I read Rand's comment on the Dark One not really being the enemy, is that is has to do with choice. Eliminating all evil from the world would also eliminate all real choice from the world, as Rand discovered in his vision. Ultimately the Dark One himself is relatively small and insignificant, he really only has as much power as the people of the world choose to give him (by breaking open his prison, choosing to serve him etc.). By sealing him away Rand keeps the wheel turning, but also allows mankind to live in a world where they have a meaningful choice between right and wrong. At least that's how I read it. This is what I thought while reading through, however this would mean that without the Dark One, no one even has the capacity to do wrong or evil, which sounds goofy. So what gets me is, what is the DO's ultimate goal? It doesn't appear that the DO can destroy everything and he needs the Dragon to actually do that for some reason. Does he just want to be free to do whatever it is he really wants to do? On another note is the horn of valere a backup mechanism if the Dragon ends up dead somehow? He just comes back as a hero when it's blown and he just goes to fix everything anyway?
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Jan 13, 2013 21:29
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Zarfol posted:This is what I thought while reading through, however this would mean that without the Dark One, no one even has the capacity to do wrong or evil, which sounds goofy. So what gets me is, what is the DO's ultimate goal? It doesn't appear that the DO can destroy everything and he needs the Dragon to actually do that for some reason. Does he just want to be free to do whatever it is he really wants to do? Well, Rand does talk briefly in his final brawl with the Dark One about iterations of the age where the Dark One chooses to leave them alone, and others where he tries even harder to corrupt or outright murder them. This particular revolution of the wheel has just been particularly combative - and he almost succeeded. The implication, I guess, is that the DO has tried a number of different strategies, which might vary in the degree to which he takes a direct hand
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Jan 13, 2013 21:42
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Zarfol posted:This is what I thought while reading through, however this would mean that without the Dark One, no one even has the capacity to do wrong or evil, which sounds goofy. So what gets me is, what is the DO's ultimate goal? It doesn't appear that the DO can destroy everything and he needs the Dragon to actually do that for some reason. Does he just want to be free to do whatever it is he really wants to do? The Dark One's purpose i believe is simply to be the higher power in the world, the soul power i guess. Since the creator doesnt give a rats rear end. He exists to test humankind i suppose. I don't think the horn is a backup , I think that if all of the Seanchan was united they could have possibly won w/o the horn, but since the wheel weaves as the wheel wills, I dont think they could ever really depend on a united front thats why the horn exists. In mankinds greatest moment of need or something like that Razoghar fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Jan 13, 2013 |
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Jan 13, 2013 21:51
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Just finished the book. I think I need some time to digest it. Reading all the posts about it was really helpful, especially since I totally didn't understand the reappearing villagers when I read it. Fantastic call back though! The time dilation/differences worked really well from a storytelling point of view. I thought that it was as though the Dark One was like a black hole trying to eat the world. I cried at several deaths, but most of all at Bela's. Olver's POV was pretty heart wrenching too. When Noal came back... Oh man, it was touching. Lan was incredible and I was hoping he was still alive because Rand only said he saw him fall, and then he was and I was so happy. Plus Nynaeve deserved that happiness, I feel. Gaywn was terrible, I can't believe he risked Egwene through the bond like that. What an idiot. Egwene went out like a true member of the Green, though I sort of wish that others could have figured out the anti-balefire weave. Soulfire? It was so awesome. I thought Galad was going to kill Demandred, I really did. (Also, Damondred/Demandred? I was confused a few times) Mat was all over the book and he's my favorite character so that made me really happy. Perrin's contribution was great, loved his total mastery of the dream world and Slayer and finally embracing everything about himself. All in all I loved it, and as soon as I reached the ending (an ending) I wanted to start rereading from Eye of the World. In fact, I think I will!
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Jan 13, 2013 22:02
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I don't think the Horn of Valere is a backup or a substitute for the Dragon; Rand's role wasn't to fight in battle, it was to resist the Dark One's temptations and then to reseal the Bore. If he'd died he would have failed, and even immediately bringing him back with the Horn, like Noal coming back as Jain to save Olver wouldn't have helped. But it certainly might buy a Dragon (or other champion of the Creator) time to get to where he or she needed to go, or provide protection while he or she is doing Dragon-y things. As far as the Creator vs the Dark One goes, I don't think the Creator is indifferent or absent so much as the world isn't, strictly, dualistic, much like orthodox Christianity considers the Devil's counterpart to be Michael the Archangel, not God. The Creator uses the Dragon to oppose the DO, and the DO in turn just modifies the Pattern; it may promise oblivion to Ishamael or the ability to challenge the Creator to Lanfear, but I don't think the DO actually has the ability to do either.
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Jan 13, 2013 22:19
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I was unsure what to make of AMoL when I was reading it, I think it'll stand up a lot better in a full series read-through. Bit of a let down when the last three were awesome in their own right. It definitely needed less battles and more ending.veekie posted:Presumably all these parts can be replaced if the need arises, like if the Dragon manages to get to that point of power, and actually deletes the Dark One, then the Pattern would supply an alternative. That is probably what Padan Fain really was doing there. If Rand had gone through with destroying the Dark One, he'd be the ready replacement, and Mat would have gotten there too late to kill Fain before his final metamorphosis. This is canon now as far as I'm concerned, it's a great excuse for Fain dying like a punk. I think I would've prefered an ending where Rand killed the Dark One and Fain immediately strode off to pollute the new DO-free world, Stormbringer-style.. It bothers me less now, but when I was reading I found the "LIFE IS MEANINGLESS WITHOUT THE DARK ONE" scene annoying as gently caress. Partly because it's way too late in the series to be trying to pass off GCSE-level bullshit like that as profound, and partly because I thought the whole point of saying that the Dark One is "outside the Pattern" was to sidestep that exact issue.
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Jan 13, 2013 22:41
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Haggins posted:So at the end, Rand says that the dark one is not the enemy and he finally understands. I don't quiet understand. Is the DO just a type of destructive force that's just there because it needs to be? So does that make the people bored in/ realsed the power/tapped the true power the real enemy? My take here after thinking about it a bit: Rand's goal for quite some time in the series has been to stop the cyclical rise and fall of the Dark One's influence. He will do this by killing the Dark One rather than just sealing him up again to be inevitably freed again in some future age. Rand realized during their confrontation that this goal is possible, but that achieving it would irreparably wreck the world/Wheel/Pattern. The best he can do is to fix things up as the Creator originally had them, with the Dark One sealed away and unable to directly affect the world. Thus the cycle continues: the Dark One still exists, and always will, he will be freed again some day by foolish men, and a new Dragon will rise up to fix things again. Rand is okay with this because he has realized the Dark One will never win: he will never inspire people the way the Dragon/Light does. A counter to this is that it's been clearly noted (I forget which book(s) or by who specifically; Verin maybe?) that the Dark One is not the essence of evil but rather amplifies and encourages those aspects of existence. His death should therefore make existence a happier place without ruining it by removing a fundamental dynamic. However, Rand's epiphany when he has the freed Dark One in his grasp at the end seems to indicate that the original statement there is incorrect: the Dark One is an intrinsic and necessary part of existence. I'm not sure who the real "enemy" is, or if there even is one. You can also look at the Dark One is defining free will with his existence rather than just being the embodiment of evil. Question: so what were the three questions that Rand asked the Aelfinn? We know two of them for sure from previous books, but I don't remember ever seeing the third revealed, in 14 or in any other book. 1. How can I cleanse Sadin? (Aelfinn answer: don't think this one was ever stated) 2. How can I survive (win + survive? not sure here) the Last Battle? (Answer: "to live you must die" and the whole north/south/east/west/two-as-one thing) 3. ? edit: veekie posted:
For a while I was certain that the finalé was going to involve Rand actually killing the Dark One and Fain becoming the new ultimate evil in existence. Fain is a strange character in this series to me. At the moment I feel like he could be removed entirely without altering much but maybe I'm forgetting something. Ross fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Jan 13, 2013 |
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Jan 13, 2013 22:52
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Chapter 5: "Well, you could certainly stop being a spoiled, self-certain, unmitigated brat for once, Egwene." Best line of the book right there.
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Jan 13, 2013 23:00
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Ross posted:Question: so what were the three questions that Rand asked the Aelfinn? We know two of them for sure from previous books, but I don't remember ever seeing the third revealed, in 14 or in any other book. I believe it was implied somewhere in AMoL to be something involving free will. The exact question isn't given though.
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Jan 13, 2013 23:02
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Saint Drogo posted:It bothers me less now, but when I was reading I found the "LIFE IS MEANINGLESS WITHOUT THE DARK ONE" scene annoying as gently caress. Partly because it's way too late in the series to be trying to pass off GCSE-level bullshit like that as profound, and partly because I thought the whole point of saying that the Dark One is "outside the Pattern" was to sidestep that exact issue. I thought it was well done, mostly because the previous books totally harped on how the pattern seeks balance. Also, killing the Dark One would have been pretty dumb really
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Jan 13, 2013 23:12
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Saint Drogo posted:It bothers me less now, but when I was reading I found the "LIFE IS MEANINGLESS WITHOUT THE DARK ONE" scene annoying as gently caress. Partly because it's way too late in the series to be trying to pass off GCSE-level bullshit like that as profound, and partly because I thought the whole point of saying that the Dark One is "outside the Pattern" was to sidestep that exact issue. Yeah, I felt like that really needed more than a page/page and a half to sell. Should have cut a little battling and fleshed that out, had him encounter more than just Elayne. Plus, had Rand actually encountered anyone who had been Turned to recognize the look in the eyes? Eh... I suppose Lew Therin might have, on second thought.
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Jan 13, 2013 23:19
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Fintilgin posted:Plus, had Rand actually encountered anyone who had been Turned to recognize the look in the eyes? Eh... I suppose Lew Therin might have, on second thought. A lot of "had Rand actually (whatever) before (ToM or AMoL)?" can be answered with "I suppose Lews Therin might have" - I think that's one good thing about getting three books instead of one, because having Rand suddenly get all that information midway through the last book would have been a lot more jarring.
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Jan 13, 2013 23:29
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I kind of miss being able to speculate about what will happen next in the series. I don't see why they won't let Sanderson, or maybe someone write fiction in the WoT universe. Then again maybe it's just better to move on to another series. The slow parts of WoT and taking up of Sword of Truth (which started off good then got stupid, but I was compelled to finish because I had to) made me swear off fantasy for good. However, Sanderson's Stormlight series really gives off that early WOT vibe and I'm pretty excited for that.
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Jan 14, 2013 00:39
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To be fair Sword of Truth almost made me want to swear off reading for good.
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Jan 14, 2013 00:56
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Haggins posted:I kind of miss being able to speculate about what will happen next in the series. I'm pretty down about this too at the moment. There's still the WoT-clopedia to look forward to though in the hopefully-near future, and before we know it I'm sure the next great pulp fantasy series will pop up  I was thinking about starting up Malazan to fill the void until the next Ice & Fire comes out in 2014/2019/never but it doesn't sound all that appealing to me and I already spoiled the ending for myself on Wikipedia a while back. The thing I think I dislike the most about Egwene dying is that I'll never be able to read a scene with her in this whole series again without thinking "she's going to die". You could say the same thing about Rand I suppose but I think it's been pretty obvious that he was not going to perma-die for a while now. Egwene's death and her being 100%-for-real-not-coming-back-dead shocked me to be honest. Ross fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Jan 14, 2013 |
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Jan 14, 2013 01:08
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I don't know how a 900 page finale to a 14 book series manages to feel too short, but there it is. A lot of stuff I'd been waiting for decades to see, like gateways being used intelligently , Sharans , and a 200 page battle. Other stuff I was totally expecting and was disappointed not to get, like Padan Fain doing something important and detailed updates on skirt smoothness and status. For all I know Elayne spent the Last Battle completely rumpled. Did anyone else notice that John Henry is a Hero of the Horn?
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Jan 14, 2013 02:00
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Haggins posted:I kind of miss being able to speculate about what will happen next in the series. I don't see why they won't let Sanderson, or maybe someone write fiction in the WoT universe. Jordan hated the idea of people doing that. He would never have been down for it.
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Jan 14, 2013 02:23
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evilweasel posted:Jordan hated the idea of people doing that. He would never have been down for it. Yeah Harriet said there were only two lines for the outrigger novel, it'd be fan fiction. RJ didn't want that, honestly I'm glad that's her view. We'll see in a few years if it sticks.. last thing we need is some Star Wars EU.
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Jan 14, 2013 02:39
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Sanderson wouldn't want to either. Those are some pretty huge shoes to fill, and without adequate notes, all it would really do is expose himself to possible fan ire, and distract from his own writing.
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Jan 14, 2013 02:50
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veekie posted:Sanderson wouldn't want to either. Those are some pretty huge shoes to fill, and without adequate notes, all it would really do is expose himself to possible fan ire, and distract from his own writing. He's expressed this sort of thought before. He's highly honored to have been chosen to finish WoT, and is really grateful for it, but now that it's over he's itching to focus solely on his own work.
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Jan 14, 2013 03:08
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evilweasel posted:I think Jordan actually got asked if this was the case and said he was uninterested in exploring this. I don't think you can say this is true: I think based on the evidence the Dragon is the same soul every time, and souls in the WOT universe have a gender (and either can or can't channel). But at the end of the book, Rand can't channel anymore. Not "he's been severed" - severed people can still see the Source, they just can't reach it. Rand "found nothing. No saidin in the void, nothing." So there are three possibilities. (1) The Dragon doesn't inherently need to be able to channel to be the Dragon. (Unlikely, given that the world would have been destroyed if Rand couldn't channel to reseal the Bore.) (2) The Creator can screw around with people and add/subtract channelling ability. Or (3) The Creator can't screw around with channelling ability, in which case Rand wasn't just rewarded with freedom in this life - he's freed from reincarnating as the Dragon in the future. Some other poor bastard will have to bear that cross. Personally, I like (3) the best, since the WOT mythos is a mash-up of Christianity and Buddhism, and since Rand sacrificed himself to save the world (like Jesus), it's only logical that he should attain freedom from samsara like the Buddha did. Especially since the Buddha, having attained enlightenment, nevertheless wandered the world for 40 more years, teaching people and doing miracles.
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Jan 14, 2013 03:17
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or he's burned out
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Jan 14, 2013 03:21
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Maybe when you burn yourself out with the True Power, it removes the presence of the source completely?
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Jan 14, 2013 03:26
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I don't think Elan/Ishamael/Moridin could ever channel the OP, all his channeling has been TP. Perhaps Rand didn't swap bodies quite the same way the DO does it, which resulted in him not being able to channel. Which doesn't seem to inconvenience him at all at this point.
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Jan 14, 2013 04:59
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I absolutely loved how even at the very last moment of what could be the end of the world, Lanfear is still scheming on how she can get back at Lews Therin for rejecting her. It's so... Lanfear.
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Jan 14, 2013 05:08
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