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MrBling posted:Do any of you honestly believe that if you put Jericho, Mysterio, Benoit and Eddie in WWF instead of WCW in the same time period that they would be treated any better? Did he talk at all about the meeting in which he said anyone who wanted to leave could, and Raven took him up on the offer?
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Jan 17, 2013 15:16
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Meltzer and Bryan were talking about Bischoff's poo poo TNA booking on the radio this week and hit upon something I had never thought of before. They were complaining that Aces and 8s is a horrible story because it's been going for months and the invading force loses almost every single match, to the point that Devon barely winning a match against a guy who has 3 weeks of wrestling training is the first victory they've had in forever. Bryan basically said that the only reason the nWo was booked competently and looked good is because the people within the group had the cachet to refuse to lose any matches. As a result, they looked strong and got over. From everything I know about Bischoff, I'm more inclined to believe the nWo succeeded for this reason, completely in spite of him. If WCW didn't have a structure that allowed the top nWo guys to refuse to job, I'm positive he would have killed the group's heat within months of its inception.
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Jan 17, 2013 15:22
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Tato posted:Meltzer and Bryan were talking about Bischoff's poo poo TNA booking on the radio this week and hit upon something I had never thought of before. They were complaining that Aces and 8s is a horrible story because it's been going for months and the invading force loses almost every single match, to the point that Devon barely winning a match against a guy who has 3 weeks of wrestling training is the first victory they've had in forever. Bryan basically said that the only reason the nWo was booked competently and looked good is because the people within the group had the cachet to refuse to lose any matches. As a result, they looked strong and got over. Either that or he's taken whatever criticism he got during that run and has gone full retard in the other direction, out of spite or incompetence or both.
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Jan 17, 2013 15:26
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Tato posted:Meltzer and Bryan were talking about Bischoff's poo poo TNA booking on the radio this week and hit upon something I had never thought of before. They were complaining that Aces and 8s is a horrible story because it's been going for months and the invading force loses almost every single match, to the point that Devon barely winning a match against a guy who has 3 weeks of wrestling training is the first victory they've had in forever. Bryan basically said that the only reason the nWo was booked competently and looked good is because the people within the group had the cachet to refuse to lose any matches. As a result, they looked strong and got over. Also the fact that it is D-von. While he has gotten better he is still thought of as a tag team wrestler. The NWO had former champ Nash and also Hall who had some amazing matches and would have been world champ. Then they had Hogan who is Hogan. NWO worked because they could win and who they had. Also they did not literally murder anyone with a hammer. Aces and 8's are just a bunch of what most people see as WWE jobbers, yet they are running all over TNA. bobkatt013 fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Jan 17, 2013 |
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Jan 17, 2013 15:26
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Yeah if we were in some crazy parallel world where CM Punk was fired from WWE and was revealed as the leader of Aces & 8s, even if the storyline was the same it would be a lot more interesting just because there is a big star involved. Granted that is a huge leap. But basically anyone but Devon would have been a great choice.
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Jan 17, 2013 15:28
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Rad R. posted:The WWE's revisionist history will, of course, always favor Raw and the WWF, and make sure to emphasize all the bad sides of WCW, but I remember how it was back then. Two things stood out: the WWF looked better, their production was better, and they emphasized every match and made every title seem important. WCW had the cruiserweights, and that's what got me hooked, plus the in-ring work was superior, but it was all poorly produced compared to the WWF, plus the new guys you wanted to see become top superstars never got their chance. See I disagree about the production. Aesthetically, Nitro was a better set than Raw until around 1999 (when WCW changed to the big C and Raw re-worked their tron set). The video quality was the same and more importantly, Nitro treated their show like a sports program instead of a television program so it felt like you were watching the sport of professional wrestling instead of a morning soap based around wrestlers. I guess I'll always defend how WCW felt like as a product. It made sense. The WWF/WWE has never made sense to me.
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Jan 17, 2013 16:28
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Paper Jam Dipper posted:See I disagree about the production. Aesthetically, Nitro was a better set than Raw until around 1999 (when WCW changed to the big C and Raw re-worked their tron set). The video quality was the same and more importantly, Nitro treated their show like a sports program instead of a television program so it felt like you were watching the sport of professional wrestling instead of a morning soap based around wrestlers. Bingo. Production wise, WCW always made "sense", there was always a reason for the camera to be there. They acknowledged it was being filmed. Attacks that occured "off grounds" or backstage that were on camera? They explained why there was a camera, or had the wrestlers film it. Simple flow and continuity stuff that the WWF never picked up on, instead sort of going with a 4th wall mentality to the filming.
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Jan 17, 2013 16:33
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I didn't watch enough WCW to say whether they were really any better this, but that has always bugged me about WWF TV since about 1997. The backstage segments don't make sense. The wrestlers are constantly filmed backstage, but they're apparently not aware of it (except when they are) but the other wrestlers may be aware of what was shown on TV (except when they're not). And the announcers (who seem to spend plenty of time interacting with the wrestlers) are aware of everything. It's just so inconsistent. Don't get me wrong, I'm always able to overlook this stuff when the show is good but it's always been there in the back of my mind.
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Jan 17, 2013 16:50
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That's why wrestling shows need to have the cameramen lurking in the shadows trembling with fear, like TNA does
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Jan 17, 2013 16:52
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Diabolik900 posted:I didn't watch enough WCW to say whether they were really any better this, but that has always bugged me about WWF TV since about 1997. The backstage segments don't make sense. The wrestlers are constantly filmed backstage, but they're apparently not aware of it (except when they are) but the other wrestlers may be aware of what was shown on TV (except when they're not). And the announcers (who seem to spend plenty of time interacting with the wrestlers) are aware of everything. It's just so inconsistent. Last year, there was a scene where the camera was behind CM Punk when he was opening the door into the GM office and then the shot switched into being inside the room watching the door open with CM Punk walking in to talk to AJ. The shot really, really loving bugged me. It's just completely unnatural. Haven't seen the WWE do it since but it pulled me out of the whole show.
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Jan 17, 2013 17:09
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Diabolik900 posted:I didn't watch enough WCW to say whether they were really any better this, but that has always bugged me about WWF TV since about 1997. The backstage segments don't make sense. The wrestlers are constantly filmed backstage, but they're apparently not aware of it (except when they are) but the other wrestlers may be aware of what was shown on TV (except when they're not). And the announcers (who seem to spend plenty of time interacting with the wrestlers) are aware of everything. It's just so inconsistent. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_KCuwQrsmw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FZxAeigcvg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEOipP1Jt5o WCW was good for explaining why you saw something.
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Jan 17, 2013 18:14
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The Best & Worst of WCW Promo photos http://withleather.uproxx.com/2013/01/the-best-and-very-very-worst-of-vintage-wcw-promo-photos-part-1#page/1 http://withleather.uproxx.com/2013/01/the-best-and-very-very-worst-of-vintage-wcw-promo-photos-part-2
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Jan 17, 2013 19:14
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Yeah, this idea kind of went by the wayside with Warrior-mirror and again in '99 when Nash took over and did stuff like the Torrie Wilson/David Flair video, but from inception of the nWo until then, WCW always had a reason for the camera being where it was, which made things feel a lot more real. I agree with the sentiment that their production didn't seem lovely until they changed the set. It just seemed more legitimate.
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Jan 17, 2013 19:29
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ThatCguy posted:Bingo. Production wise, WCW always made "sense", there was always a reason for the camera to be there. They acknowledged it was being filmed. Attacks that occured "off grounds" or backstage that were on camera? They explained why there was a camera, or had the wrestlers film it. Simple flow and continuity stuff that the WWF never picked up on, instead sort of going with a 4th wall mentality to the filming. Interesting. I wasn't getting at that, but one of the things I loved about Nitro and what made it seem more real than Raw was: it was treated primarily like a sports show, the wrestlers were athletes fighting over prestigious championships, or honor, or control. Raw was much closer to a cartoon/soap opera. But I never thought about backstage segments and acknowledged or not acknowledged the presence of a cameraman. WCW was really a level above the WWF in that matter. I was thinking more about the WWF's visuals, and that falls in the category of graphic design and video editing. Logos, music (especially the music), the TitanTron, pyro - it looked way better in the WWF. Especially the pyro, on WCW TV shows there would always be a ton of smoke after the pyro, whether it's the opening segment or Goldberg's entrance. This also may be just a small detail, but I preferred the sound of a WCW ring, the impact (no pun intended) seemed more intense, the WWF ring had a more metal sound to it. BTW, I know a lot of people compare TNA to WCW, I tried watching it, and couldn't. Tried during Foley's last days, when Anderson had a program with Sting. Back in the day, in 2000, I quit watching WCW. I love wrestling, but if it's bad, it's better to re-watch the good stuff than to force myself.
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Jan 17, 2013 19:51
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it was kind of weird to see WCW complete a backstage interview without violence when almost always, WWF the guy getting interviewed would get jumped and there would be a brawl.
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Jan 17, 2013 19:54
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Thanks for reminding me about that stuff. I totally forgot about how Schiavone would emphasize they have a camera crew present backstage or wherever, and for what reason. So, when Russo came and they did that segment with the nWo attacking Flair somewhere far away from the arena, and the commentators didn't mention WHY there was a camera there, this would be Russo working in a WWF style? Because I remember that, and how stupid that segment was, and how it was heavily criticized online.
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Jan 17, 2013 20:06
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Nowadays I'd kill for a scene like Flair getting buried in the desert. I feel like WWE keeps things in the ring too often, I'd like for some shows to have a change of scenery.
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Jan 17, 2013 20:07
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Yeah, I feel like the core of every modern WWE feud is an interview/debate in the middle of the ring.
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Jan 17, 2013 20:13
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Rad R. posted:Thanks for reminding me about that stuff. I totally forgot about how Schiavone would emphasize they have a camera crew present backstage or wherever, and for what reason. So, when Russo came and they did that segment with the nWo attacking Flair somewhere far away from the arena, and the commentators didn't mention WHY there was a camera there, this would be Russo working in a WWF style? Because I remember that, and how stupid that segment was, and how it was heavily criticized online. I believe that beatdown segment was from months before they brought Russo in, but I may be remembering incorrectly.
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Jan 17, 2013 20:15
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Another thing WCW did all of the time was in ring interviews where Mean Gene would actually interview a wrestler in the ring (same with on ramp interviews). Having Gene there allowed things to move much faster and punch a lot better. Wrestlers didn't take breathing/thinking breaks because if they got off track, Gene was there to pull them back on it. Gene could be a total dink (watch BattleBowl 93 with FiFi) but he had a really valuable job in wrestling and I think it's really lost on companies today.
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Jan 17, 2013 20:17
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I actually thought about Mean Gene when Josh Matthews sprung up to give Orton an in ring interview recently.
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Jan 17, 2013 20:18
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Paper Jam Dipper posted:Another thing WCW did all of the time was in ring interviews where Mean Gene would actually interview a wrestler in the ring (same with on ramp interviews). Having Gene there allowed things to move much faster and punch a lot better. Wrestlers didn't take breathing/thinking breaks because if they got off track, Gene was there to pull them back on it. Gene could be a total dink (watch BattleBowl 93 with FiFi) but he had a really valuable job in wrestling and I think it's really lost on companies today. Yeah, a consistent interviewer/MC on hand is great. Obviously, Mean Gene was especially talented at it, because he could make guys who might not even be the best on the mic look better, by asking the right questions.
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Jan 17, 2013 20:27
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VogeGandire posted:Yeah, a consistent interviewer/MC on hand is great. Obviously, Mean Gene was especially talented at it, because he could make guys who might not even be the best on the mic look better, by asking the right questions. He also knew how to dance and train with Hulk Hogan.
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Jan 17, 2013 20:29
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And he was actually capable of corralling a woo-frenzied Flair. (e): Paper Jam Dipper posted:He's the only guy who could make a crazy Macho Man stay on topic. Hell, he managed to deal with a coked-out Macho Man performing impromptu sleight-of-hand magic tricks, mid-interview. (It's genuinely as good as it sounds) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C4lK41SX-Q Gyro Zeppeli fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Jan 17, 2013 |
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Jan 17, 2013 20:32
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VogeGandire posted:And he was actually capable of corralling a woo-frenzied Flair. He's the only guy who could make a crazy Macho Man stay on topic. "And the beat goes on?"
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Jan 17, 2013 20:33
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Paper Jam Dipper posted:He's the only guy who could make a crazy Macho Man stay on topic. All I have to say to that is this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL_1xkPIEaQ
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Jan 17, 2013 20:36
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bobkatt013 posted:All I have to say to that is this See, Gene got him back on track. When Savage starts stalking back and forth in front of the camera it's terrifying, cool and ominous at the very same time. "AND I'M GONNA BE WATCHING TOO THROUGH THE VIDEO SCOPE, YEAHHHH!"
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Jan 17, 2013 20:39
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Paper Jam Dipper posted:See, Gene got him back on track. Savage, when he got into serious-mode was pure  material. When he'd do THAT voice and you knew poo poo just got real.
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Jan 17, 2013 20:46
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It's always weird to me when people in here defend WCW's production on "sports" grounds. That aesthetic choice was better for me, and many people, but no one really trashes WCW for that aspect. It's the production problems they had, the gently caress ups and the way they could look so low rent that gets criticized. The way they lit arenas and shot things aren't really what is being critiqued.
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Jan 17, 2013 21:12
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Was there ever any story behind the first Souled Out PPV? I think that was the one that had some real questionable production choices. Like not screening/prepping the Miss nWo contestants to actually get interesting answers The live band that may or may not have hurled racial abuse at the crowd. nWo riding dumptrucks to the arena(???).
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Jan 17, 2013 21:15
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coconono posted:Was there ever any story behind the first Souled Out PPV? I think that was the one that had some real questionable production choices. The plan was to have WCW events and then NWO events. Then the ppv happened and that plan died. Thunder was originally going to be either the NWO or WCW show.
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Jan 17, 2013 21:17
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coconono posted:Was there ever any story behind the first Souled Out PPV? I'm going to go out on a limb and say cocaine.
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Jan 17, 2013 21:18
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The first Souled Out was a horrible PPV, that should have taught them that an nWo show of any kind couldn't work. Wasn't the only matches WCW won were a ladder match between Eddie and Syxx where a ref wasn't involved, and the Steiners winning the tag titles when a WCW ref did the count? The concept of nWo Nitro was kind of cool as a one off, like WCW was invading the nWo on their home turf so to speak, but it had no long term staying power.
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Jan 17, 2013 21:29
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Legend goes that Bischoff said that he wanted a dirty, grimey industral feel to the show to set it apart from the sports presentation of WCW. Someone heard this and went "I know where we can get dump trucks."
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Jan 17, 2013 21:31
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The idea of running an nWo PPV really wasn't a bad one. Making it look different was a good idea. From there everything else they did with it was so off the mark it is impossible to really say more positive about it.
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Jan 17, 2013 21:34
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An nWo PPV could have actually been a good thing in some respects, if Bischoff didn't try to string the nWo storyline out forever and never let the faces win. You could have had a WCW babyface go into the hostile nWo PPV where the deck is stacked against him and somehow improbably pull off a victory, angering the nWo and making himself a hero in the process. Instead it had ugly women and the nWo beat the poo poo out of every other wrestler with the help of crooked officiating.
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Jan 17, 2013 21:40
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Rad R. posted:Thanks for reminding me about that stuff. I totally forgot about how Schiavone would emphasize they have a camera crew present backstage or wherever, and for what reason. So, when Russo came and they did that segment with the nWo attacking Flair somewhere far away from the arena, and the commentators didn't mention WHY there was a camera there, this would be Russo working in a WWF style? Because I remember that, and how stupid that segment was, and how it was heavily criticized online.
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Jan 17, 2013 21:45
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Rad R. posted:Interesting. I wasn't getting at that, but one of the things I loved about Nitro and what made it seem more real than Raw was: it was treated primarily like a sports show, the wrestlers were athletes fighting over prestigious championships, or honor, or control. Raw was much closer to a cartoon/soap opera. But I never thought about backstage segments and acknowledged or not acknowledged the presence of a cameraman. WCW was really a level above the WWF in that matter. I like this post. While those are some valid points, I thought the WWF did some things that were really better for television, like their lighting, especially when it came to how they turned the lights on over the crowd around the ring, and avoided the cheap-looking entrance frame with the color-changing lights and smoke (though they rightly incorporated it into the low-budget sets for the ECW ONS shows). If they had fireworks, the WWF could attach (sometimes colorful) pyro to the entrance, the ceiling, the ring posts, and, if necessary, the WrestleMania logo hanging from the rafters. WCW, by comparison, did pretty well with this, too - but it's hard to remember anyone having specific pyro outside of DDP or Goldberg. In the WWF, Shawn Michaels, Chyna, HHH, Kane, Razor Ramon, Diesel, Christian, Sid, Dudley Boyz, and more had signature pyrotechnics. The WWF used an entrance ramp, and generally, it was a short walk from the arena entrance to the ring for a wrestler. Whereas in WCW, the wrestler had a long walk down - flanked by the generic metal railing and concrete. They eventually built a larger set and moved to smaller arenas, but then you had poo poo like Bam Bam Bigelow tripping over the giant C in the WCW logo that stuck out of the ramp. Beyond that, many wrestlers in the WWF had personalized lights that shone on the walkway or in the ring - featuring their likeness or logo. I also thought the larger WWF ring looked better on television, and gave the workers a bit more room to run around. I always preferred the sound of the WWF rings, which had a always-familiar resounding BUH-WUMP sound. They put their logo in each individual turnbuckle, and the ring apron usually had the Raw or PPV logo. The WCW rings sometimes had that, and were sometimes generic as hell looking. There seemed to be little consistency from WCW there. Up until... maybe 1998 or 1999 (I forget when), the WWF even provided unique and high-quality ring gimmicks - you'll recall the signature blue WWF-style cage for cage matches, for instance. There were a few PPV events that made use of motorized carts in the style of miniature wrestling rings that ferried wrestlers to the ring. And, for a very long time, the WWF built very intricate and detailed sets for pay-per-views - such as the Roman Coliseum theme for a Royal Rumble, again with the Romans for a WrestleMania, a giant mobile of tables/ladders/chairs for a TLC show, and so forth. The best I can recall WCW rolling out were some pathetic beach sets for Bash at the Beach. I feel like a large percentage of workers in WCW had generic or airbrushed tights, whereas most WWF guys had complete outfits and get-ups. The extent of a costume for WCW guys might be a hat or a vest, or the traditional wrestling entrance robe (like Flair's). WWF employed, I think, two seamstresses to make custom gear for their wrestlers and valets. Even the guys who used barely any creativity in their gear show a difference: WCW Lex Luger wore black trunks and white boots, WWF Lex Luger wore flag trunks and jacket as a face while wearing lacy silver trunks and boots as a narcissistic heel. WCW Scott Hall wore black trunks with running blood that said HALL, while WWF Razor Ramon wore an assortment of bright colors with his personalized logo while decked out with a vest and loads of jewelry. Small touches. Consider how drastically different the production value was between WCW's last 5-6 years, and the last 15 years of the WWF/E, using just these examples, and try to fathom how WCW spent the last few years hemorrhaging money.
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Jan 17, 2013 21:49
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Red posted:And, for a very long time, the WWF built very intricate and detailed sets for pay-per-views - such as the Roman Coliseum theme for a Royal Rumble, again with the Romans for a WrestleMania, a giant mobile of tables/ladders/chairs for a TLC show, and so forth. The best I can recall WCW rolling out were some pathetic beach sets for Bash at the Beach. Ok, no fair comparing 1998 WCW to current day WWF PPV sets, and how dare you forget Halloween Havoc Seriously, look at some of the sets from 1998-1999 WWF and talk about how great they are. Most of them barely had anything unique at all.
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Jan 17, 2013 21:55
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Nothing beats having a little house for wrestling to come out of at In Your House PPVs.
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