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Install Gentoo posted:But you just said I was saying that train drivers can explicitly go much more slowly into stations when they feel or are told there is a risk of people falling onto the tracks due to overcrowding, as opposed to the high speed they usually go in. I'm just trying to illustrate how drivers still have duties on ATO trains beyond "just being kept busy."
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Nov 4, 2012 22:55
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Jonnty posted:I was saying that train drivers can explicitly go much more slowly into stations when they feel or are told there is a risk of people falling onto the tracks due to overcrowding, as opposed to the high speed they usually go in. I'm just trying to illustrate how drivers still have duties on ATO trains beyond "just being kept busy." Ok, so you're just saying what they've been doing with ATO systems since the 60s then.
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Nov 4, 2012 23:05
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Cerv posted:let's down a shot every time someone misuses 'driverless' and 'automated' / 'ATO' interchangeably. Man I am gonna be really drunk. ATO and driverless are not the same.
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Nov 4, 2012 23:53
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e: nvm
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Nov 5, 2012 00:53
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Jonnty posted:The Heathrow thing is pretty awesome though - I reckon PRT must be the future of transport in this country if anything close to what roads are like now are to still exist in 50 years. With driverless cars you might not even need to do any infrastructure modifications. Small personal example - there's a one-lane country road I drive down reasonably often. If you meet someone coming the other way, one of you has to reverse to a passing place. Two of the passing places are so sodden in winter, though, that if don't have a 4x4 you're unlikely to be getting out again without help. That's not obvious just from looking at them, so all the edge-sensing radar in the world isn't going to help a robot car figure out what to do. As long as those situations are even somewhat common then you'll need some way for the driver to take manual control, and that tends to keep you tied to the 2+2 seating pattern of a modern car. edit: I mean I can totally see them working on motorways, we've had the tech for that since the 60s. And perhaps in city centres, too. And those will be a big benefit. I just think it's going to be a while, if ever, before you actually have a properly, consistently driverless car, because it seems to me that to deal with all the various situations a car can find itself in you would basically need functional AI before you could build one. Zephro fucked around with this message at 12:41 on Nov 5, 2012 |
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Nov 5, 2012 12:36
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Bozza posted:Man I am gonna be really drunk. Right, correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I can see the difference is that with ATO, you have someone sit in the cab just in case the train. In the case of London Underground, that person also opens and closes the door, something which could just as well be done by the ATO system itself. Driverless just means that the controls are generally hidden instead of in a separate cab, and you can still opt to have a member of staff on board just in case like they do on the DLR. In the case of LU this would always be the case because there are no emergency pathways alongside the tracks in the tunnels. No one's disputing that you don't need a member of staff on each train on LU, are they?
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Nov 5, 2012 13:17
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Nearly; with the second example, you either need to have a totally closed system with no chance of any obstruction on the track (easy to do in a new build, hard on LU) or incredibly good obstacle detection and sensing equipment that can slam the brakes on (or not) as required.
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Nov 5, 2012 13:23
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I am waiting until someone (Jonnty) unironically uses Skyfall as an argument against ATO.
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Nov 5, 2012 16:01
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kim jong-illin posted:I am waiting until someone (Jonnty) unironically uses Skyfall as an argument against ATO. But the train shown is a Jubliee Line train which do in fact use ATO! It wouldn't be able to run on the District line though. And would never have a spare driver doing nothing in the rear compartment. Understandable as the actual District Line trains look like wank. Though I think they missed a trick in not using the new stock that's due in a few years.
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Nov 5, 2012 16:24
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If the District line trains are bad (I use them every day), what about the Circle lines one? I see them go by as I wait for my train and they seem to be much worse.
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Nov 5, 2012 16:28
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Tekopo posted:If the District line trains are bad (I use them every day), what about the Circle lines one? I see them go by as I wait for my train and they seem to be much worse. Thankfully due to be replaced with the same lovely S stock right before the District line update.
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Nov 5, 2012 16:42
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kim jong-illin posted:I am waiting until someone (Jonnty) unironically uses Skyfall as an argument against ATO. Could any driver have stopped it in time?
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Nov 5, 2012 17:15
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(I've not seen Skyfall, but I have seen the trailer) Theoretically, making the hole would fail the train detection, thus depending on where the train is on the approach, it would be caught at the protecting signal in rear before approaching. Not sure about the ATO system in use but with that sort of failure, it may totally remove the movement authority of the train and bring it to a stand as soon as the system registers the track has dropped. If it's using coded track circuits, if the failure is in advance of the train but on the approach of the coding device, loss of comms with the system would also apply the emergency brake. So, in conclusion, 1) I need to get a hobby and 2) ATO may have performed better than a human driver in this circumstance.
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Nov 5, 2012 17:33
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But seeing as Silva is magic computer hacker he clearly disabled all that first.
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Nov 5, 2012 17:37
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Actually, to further my previous post, that would be ATP (Automatic Train Protection) system doing that not the ATO, so you could still have a human driver very much in control. It all gets a bit technical from there.
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Nov 5, 2012 18:16
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Cerv posted:Yes, the C stock. Oldest trains on the network. Not great. Also used on the Hammersmith & City line and the District line from Edgware Road to Wimbledon. As to the Skyfall argument, the explosion could have (probably) severed the tunnel telephone wires which should cut traction power anyway.
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Nov 6, 2012 01:24
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Cerv posted:Skyfall's nearly as bad as Modern Warfare 2 for accuracy. At least they got permission to use the actual signage and logos. You mean Modern Warfare 3.  Because I have nothing better to do with my time, I once tried to see if the Pripyat escape mission (what was it called? One Shot One Kill) was accurate enough. It kind of was, if you excuse Mac and Price going to long way around to throw off the Russians. Modern Warfare 3, however, doesn't even try, evidenced by the fact there is a small patch of woodland in Canary Wharf.  The tube part isn't that accurate either, as you end up driving in the tunnels towards and through Canning Town, then go through the Widened Lines to eventually get to Westminster station. 
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Nov 6, 2012 03:52
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Mahmoud Ahmadinejad posted:Only some of it is the oldest, they built some more in 1977! The uniform oldest is the Bakerloo Line's which was made in 1972. TinTower posted:You mean Modern Warfare 3.
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Nov 6, 2012 10:26
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Bozza's still a poo poo for not writing about gates so let's have a look at some big holes; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpEkD3SjCCM I might have posted about this before but I can't be arsed to check. Don't die, train thread  e: also fares are up 6.3% tomorrow, get your season tickets in chaps.
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Jan 1, 2013 06:02
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When did workplace health and safety become a thing? I ask here because I figure BR would've been a leading light in best practices.
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Jan 7, 2013 10:22
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I love the bit about freezing the ground with liquid nitrogen during a heatwave because it was so wet. Also, the narrative is amusingly fruity in places: "Men with muscles and buttocks of cast iron." 
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Jan 7, 2013 11:26
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coffeetable posted:When did workplace health and safety become a thing? I ask here because I figure BR would've been a leading light in best practices. I worked with a guy who worked on the 2000 Jubilee Line extension and he said they were monkeying around above massive 600ft drops and live lines and all sorts just to get it done on time.
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Jan 7, 2013 15:15
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kingturnip posted:Also, the narrative is amusingly fruity in places: "Men with muscles and buttocks of cast iron." This is what was getting your mum all hot and bothered way back when.
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Jan 7, 2013 17:47
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A model train company put in a joke offer for the West-coast franchise, and got a response from someone in gov't with a sense of humour: http://blog.bigjigstoys.co.uk/our-wcml-bid-has-been-accepted-almost/  
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Jan 7, 2013 23:20
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This just made my week. For content, the health and safety at work act came in in 1974, although legislation of its sort has been around since the factory acts of the 1800s. Rail has always had a poor worker safety record. Our track safety instructor used to delight in telling us about a time he had to flatten himself against a tunnel lining to avoid a train, watching carriage door handles whizz past his face and knowing that the guard van at the end of the train was often just a little bit bigger than the passenger carriages.
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Jan 8, 2013 00:13
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Endjinneer posted:This just made my week. For content, the health and safety at work act came in in 1974, although legislation of its sort has been around since the factory acts of the 1800s. Yeah, pretty much this. Rail had dreadful worker safety well into the 1980s, and there was a real push to drive down trackside deaths because it was well into the hundreds each year. These were the days when section managers ruled with an iron fist, and gangers were responsible for safety of their gangs with only very minimal formal training (beyond on the job learning). With the onset of privatisation, this whole process had to be formalised into what is called the 'Personal Track Safety' competence. It was a two day course that gave you railway safety basics, and it was intended to liberalise the labour market by letting external contractors onto the infrastructure. What happened was an explosion in black market PTS tickets (literally yellow bits of card) which were sold down pubs for ~£100 a pop, letting you get a juicy bit of that railway pie. This had a strange knock-on effect, that while health and safety was not perfect in the BR days, everybody knew everybody else and looked out for each other. Following the casualisation of labour, there was a mass upswing in injuries, rules violations and deaths as untrained (but holding forged tickets) people swamped the sites, particularly in renewals. The old BR guys were more expensive to hire because they were sticklers for the rules (generally) and therefore could not compete. Just prior to the fall of Railtrack, this was partially sorted by the creation of Sentinal, an independence competence management company, was brought in to manage this mess and you're now issued with a photo-id card which is checked to be vaild every time you sign into site (both locally and with a site management system). I've attached a scan of my now out of date card as I no longer do enough on-track work to require it. You will see it specifically states AC&DC, which means I was competent to work on both types of electrifed lines as that requires different training generally amounting to "don't go loving near it, dimlow". Anyway, with all this killing of workers going on, Railtrack and later NR were getting shat on from a great height by the HSE and the ORR, so started building very demanding worker safety clauses into their contract tenders. These centrally monitored RIDDOR (Reporting of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations) accidents and companies which failed to meet targets got locked out of bidding for work. This caused two things, firstly, it massively improved work place health and safety, but then also caused it to go a bit sour again. Companies (and NR internal orgs, particularly maintenance) started to cover up RIDDOR accidents essentially, as it severely affected their ability to get work and causing a lot of resentment. Network Rail recently, having plugged the leaks with regards to the large problems, is now trying to step up 'openess' in its safety targets, asking for people to report all incidents without threat of disciplinary action to try and see where the real safety issues in the industry still lie. This a huge step, and for those of you who are familiar with the safety maturity model, it is moving up a step which requires a lot of trust on both sides of the organisation. NR have so far been very honest and fair about everything, while the workforce at the moment remains a bit reluctant to start reporting as nearly 20 years of covering up and blame passing has become industry standard. Hopefully, we will see this model play out, because while the industry is still a dangerous place to work, it is a hell of a lot safer than it used to be, and hopefully will continue to be a lot safer. 3 worker deaths in 2012 is 3 too many.
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Jan 8, 2013 10:52
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My monthly SPT Zonecard has increased £6 to £101. I'll be interested to see if my commute costs less when the Scotland-wide Oystercard-like system is completed.
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Jan 10, 2013 18:08
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Oops http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-20968521BBC News posted:Network Rail has apologised after it wrongly announced it was investing millions on a North Yorkshire station. Also Bob Crow delivers highest RMT membership since the Victorian Era. A useful thing next time someone complains he's taking all the money and doing gently caress all and now there's a tube strike and it's raining and I'm going to be late for work. http://www.rmt.org.uk/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=168342 RMT posted:Membership figures released by the union today show that RMT has put on a net gain of 1456 members through 2012, taking the total to 77,549 – an annual growth of nearly 2% in the most challenging circumstances.
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Jan 16, 2013 03:50
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The beeb posted:...£10m to improve capacity at Harrogate station. It later said the money was actually being spent 36 miles (58km) away in Huddersfield Each reiteration of the figures gets trumpeted like it is extra money, rather than a dreary repeat of a 2 year old promise. Fun fact- Harrogate is a low point on the rail network, you go up (towards London) whichever way the train leaves the station.
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Jan 17, 2013 22:00
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Bozza, why do they reduce the service in snow, surely having the trains running would keep the tracks warm?
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Jan 18, 2013 11:36
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notaspy posted:Bozza, why do they reduce the service in snow, surely having the trains running would keep the tracks warm? I would assume it is more down to the visibility of signals, so the trains have to run slower.
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Jan 18, 2013 11:46
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notaspy posted:Bozza, why do they reduce the service in snow, surely having the trains running would keep the tracks warm? Two reasons really, sighting distance on trains is shorter because of reduced visibility. This isn't that much of a problem unless it's really coming down, though there is an old railway saying between track workers about loving off work if there's falling snow because you can't see trains coming. Soft southern trains however are not too great in the snow, because the third rail freezes. This is more of a problem with modern stock because the on board computer throws a poo poo fit when it gets massive variations in traction current, huge arcs and back EMF generated because of hitting frozen patches of rail. Hardy northern trains are generally diesel or overhead line powered, so they are ok. Back in the old days, there were no on-board computers and you basically controlled the traction current through massive banks of resistors being switched in and out, so they fared much better with irregular traction currents.
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Jan 18, 2013 12:06
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If you are in 3rd rail land then trains can have trouble maintaining a connection. Also there is the issue of staff even being able to get in for work. And increased braking distances. And freezing equipment...
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Jan 18, 2013 12:06
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Bozza posted:Two reasons really, sighting distance on trains is shorter because of reduced visibility. This isn't that much of a problem unless it's really coming down, though there is an old railway saying between track workers about loving off work if there's falling snow because you can't see trains coming. Thanks dude, just needed to shut down some dumb arses in work.
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Jan 18, 2013 12:38
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When it gets more serious (ie. in Scotland), there's some other more serious stuff that can happen. Snow and ice can fly up into the undercarriage of trains and cause problems. Ironically, modern units are too good at getting rid of excess heat (and not generating it in the first place), so it stays frozen if it's cold enough, disruptively knocking units out until they thaw up. This led to ScotRail introducing train skirts a few years ago. This ice can also get into the trains' brake equipment, which can potentially be much more serious and was responsible for quite a serious freight train derailment in 2010 and some other near misses. These are quite scary because, as the brakes are just not working, the majority of safety measures we have to prevent crashes are completely useless. There's a lot of rules about periodic brake tests and things which are meant to avoid this, but they obviously cause delays too. Finally, the ice can freeze up points so they can't change, which can obviously cause absolutely colossal disruption. NR therefore sometimes pre-emptively shuts lower priority routes so that they don't need to change points and risk them freezing the "wrong way." This happened to my local line in the really bad snow a few years back: if the points had been set for it and then frozen, it would have meant no WCML trains could come directly to Edinburgh. Which, as you might imagine, would have been somewhat problematic. Jonnty fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Jan 18, 2013 |
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Jan 18, 2013 15:35
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Does anyone have any thoughts on the upcoming Crossrail rolling stock decision? There is a good chance that Siemens will be able to offer a better contract due to the considerable overlap between this and the Thameslink contract, but that would be politically very difficult I think. As far I can tell (do correct me) the previous drama was mainly caused by Bombadier throwing a hissy fit: Siemens also manufactures stuff in the UK and Bombadier is Canadian anyway (although they probably prefer not that many people knowing). e: I also just read that the contracts are anonymous when assessed. Is that true? distortion park fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Jan 19, 2013 |
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Jan 19, 2013 16:35
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pointsofdata posted:
That seems pretty stupid. You might end up with AnsaloBreda like the Danish and the Dutch did.
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Jan 20, 2013 09:44
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Jonnty posted:When it gets more serious (ie. in Scotland), there's some other more serious stuff that can happen. Snow and ice can fly up into the undercarriage of trains and cause problems. Ironically, modern units are too good at getting rid of excess heat (and not generating it in the first place), so it stays frozen if it's cold enough, disruptively knocking units out until they thaw up. I even noticed the ice frozen up around the MK3 carriages on my train to Suffolk today but reading this I've only just realised that's what that noise was. Rude Dude With Tude fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Jan 21, 2013 |
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Jan 21, 2013 19:25
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sweek0 posted:That seems pretty stupid. You might end up with AnsaloBreda like the Danish and the Dutch did. To be fair, the Fyra is a glorious magnificent uhmm... trainwreck.
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Jan 21, 2013 22:17
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Bozza, if you can be bothered making an effortpost... http://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/1720pg/in_the_last_20_years_since_privatisation_in_what/ I always appreciate your writing maybe some other people would too.
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Jan 22, 2013 19:39
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