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mlmp08 posted:Also one was obliterated by a Patriot battery on its way back to base, so 10% of its casualties were the result of a fratricide. Same for the F/A-18s. That was OIF, wasn't it? He was talking about Desert Storm. Magni posted:IIRC, this was actually not the case (at least not *that* early). What happened was that the French strapped JDAM sets on training munitions (read:hunks of concrete) and slammed these into Gaddafi's armor because it'd cause less collateral damage to the surrounding area than using real munitions while still getting the job done. Then a bunch of reporters assumed they did it because they had run out of ammo and the whole thing became a runaway story. It wasn't literally two days into the war, but NATO allies definitely requested the US FMS (foreign military sales; sell at cost plus a small handling fee) them preferred munitions from the US WRM (war reserve) stocks in Europe. IIRC it was more the smaller countries that were participating, like Belgium, Norway, and the Netherlands, although I feel confident in saying that the only reason that the U.K. and France didn't request any sales is that their jets weren't compatible with the types of munitions the U.S. had stockpiled. You are correct that using training shapes as low cost low collateral damage "munitions" is definitely a thing, though. mlmp08 posted:SAR is cool, might be considered cheating. But still, not all that many platforms are SAR-capable compared to the platforms that can use a laser designator or carry GBUs. And there are still plenty of targets where a TACP can get you on target, but SAR may not be able to. Valid.
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Jan 25, 2013 04:37
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iyaayas01 posted:That was OIF, wasn't it? He was talking about Desert Storm. Oops, yes.
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Jan 25, 2013 04:40
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iyaayas01 posted:and the Netherlands Funnily enough we sat the non-air policing part out, probably because there wasn't any money left for munitions but the flying time was budgeted anyway.
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Jan 25, 2013 04:51
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Magni posted:IIRC, this was actually not the case (at least not *that* early). What happened was that the French strapped JDAM sets on training munitions (read:hunks of concrete) and slammed these into Gaddafi's armor because it'd cause less collateral damage to the surrounding area than using real munitions while still getting the job done. I googled around and found a few articles on this, and it's kind of interesting. Are there any pictures of targets that were knocked out by concrete bombs?
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Jan 25, 2013 04:55
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:I googled around and found a few articles on this, and it's kind of interesting. Are there any pictures of targets that were knocked out by concrete bombs? Here's a car that was bombed by a trainer from Yodaville.  Yodaville: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...bing-raids.html
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Jan 25, 2013 05:00
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iyaayas01 posted:Others have covered it pretty well, but the incident we're all referencing is a deep strike raid by a battalion strength force of Apaches (31 launched, one crashed right after takeoff so 30 were part of the raiding force) on the Iraqi Medina Division, the Republican Guard's top unit. The Wikipedia write up that someone linked to is pretty good, but the short version is it was an absolute disaster. Out of 30 helos, 1 was shot down by small arms fire, all but one of the remaining 29 suffered serious damage, 2 of the 29 were written off, and it took a month for the unit to be combat effective again. I've seen a Harrier get a "kill" on an Aggressor F-16 at a Nellis Red Flag.. The Viper picked up the lead aircraft of the low-ingressing strikers and never noticed the trailers 5-10 miles back. He rolled in right between them and the Harrier got a perfect IR target. Valid for kill.
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Jan 25, 2013 05:02
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Godholio posted:I've seen a Harrier get a "kill" on an Aggressor F-16 at a Nellis Red Flag.. The Viper picked up the lead aircraft of the low-ingressing strikers and never noticed the trailers 5-10 miles back. He rolled in right between them and the Harrier got a perfect IR target. Valid for kill. Yeah well that's an aircraft with 20 actual kills, including mach 2 fighters.
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Jan 25, 2013 05:06
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I've also heard of A-10s circling in a valley just waiting for the all clear to go attack a ground target when a division of F-15s transited past the valley, unaware the A-10s were circling in the area. The A-10s got an IR kill or two there. Or so the guy controlling the A-10s from an AWACS swears.
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Jan 25, 2013 05:06
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Koesj posted:Yeah well that's an aircraft with 20 actual kills, They have a lot more than that!  Ohhhh, you weren't talking about their own pilots.
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Jan 25, 2013 05:07
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lmao I wonder if the way smaller number of Yak-38s actually killed more pilots.
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Jan 25, 2013 05:13
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Koesj posted:Funnily enough we sat the non-air policing part out, probably because there wasn't any money left for munitions but the flying time was budgeted anyway. I actually remembered that right after I posted, whoops. What a topsy turvy war...Belgians were doing more fighting than the Dutch.  Regarding amusing air training kills, Air & Space had a piece a really long time ago (that I've been unable to find online, which is really weird with them because they put almost everything online) written by a BUFF crewman...can't remember if he was an EWO, radar nav, or nav. Anyway, it was about them flying red air for an air defense exercise in Alaska back in the '80s. The first day they stuck to the script (straight and level, medium altitude, all from the same direction) and all died, the second day that flew like they would've really flown had the balloon gone up and created quite a few more headaches for blue air. One of the BUFFs even allegedly got a guns kill on an Eagle...the BUFF was flying at (extremely) low altitude and the Eagle was having trouble locking him up, so as he closed in attempting to get a lock he misjudged the distance and inadvertently flew within guns range of the tail gunner. I'm not sure how valid that would be since I would imagine in an overshoot type situation you'd be looking at some pretty serious closure rates and getting a valid tail guns kill in that situation might be difficult, but it's still a helluva story either way. And then again, there were two confirmed tail gun kills during Linebacker II, so anything's possible. e: I can't remember if I posted this story here or in another thread, but I've got a story that's basically the opposite of that...there was an airlift focused vul during a RF-A exercise. Instead of being ancillary to the fight the scenario focus for that vul was doing an airfield seizure in enemy territory, so airlifters were the main show. A C-17 and a bunch of Herks were supposed to ingress and fly to a dirt strip, where they'd simulate infiltrating a force of Rangers or whatever, and then haul rear end out of the airspace, while everyone else (OCA, SEAD, Escort, etc) covered/supported them. Well something went terribly, terribly wrong with the escort plan, because wires got crossed somewhere and the airlifters were left hanging out to dry...all of them were dead within a minute of the start of the vul. Literal turkey shoot. Pretty sure that C-17 got shot at least 4 times in the first 15 seconds. iyaayas01 fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Jan 25, 2013 |
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Jan 25, 2013 05:41
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I once ran an exercise wherein one of the opposing squadrons didn't realize that Patriot didn't spike targets before putting a missile on target. That would have been a rough day for the reload crews if we were firing real missiles.
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Jan 25, 2013 06:12
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Post-Cold War, but still a good story of a nuclear power getting it's feathers ruffled.Wings Over the Rockies Air and Space Museum posted:In 1995, four years after the Cold War ended, a team of Norwegian and US scientists had gathered at the Andøya Rocket Range in northern Norway to launch a Canadian-built Bristol Aerospace Black Brant XII rocket with scientific instrumentation aboard. 
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Jan 25, 2013 21:17
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From the middle east thread in D&D - T-72s continue to react poorly to RPGs. Yikes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vljapydLfGQ
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Jan 26, 2013 00:01
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^^ Goddamn, that's scary.BadgerMan45 posted:Yeah, but choppers are pretty vulnerable to small-arms fire and any sort of real AA, think glass cannon. If your operation is a massive boondoggle that puts a bunch of unsupported helos over an urban area with bad intel expect poo poo to go wrong. The tail rotor especially is the glass jaw of combat helicopters. In Afghanistan, even Mi-24s, armored against all small arms, could be shot down with a heavy machine gun if you attacked from the rear. I think that's a good argument for investigating the dual rotor arrangement on the Ka-52 a bit further; this sorta arrangement doesn't have that vulnerability.
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Jan 26, 2013 00:07
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Warbadger posted:From the middle east thread in D&D - T-72s continue to react poorly to RPGs. Yikes. I saw that in GiP. This is why you don't store ammo in the turret.
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Jan 26, 2013 01:08
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wdarkk posted:I saw that in GiP. This is why you don't store ammo in the turret. Is it me or did that look like a model set almost. I know its not, just something about the angles. Reminds me of sky photos were it looks like the cities are model cities.
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Jan 26, 2013 01:12
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Holy poo poo. Was that guy at the end hiding under the tank or something? No way he survived that inside of it, right?
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Jan 26, 2013 01:13
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Akion posted:Holy poo poo. Was that guy at the end hiding under the tank or something? No way he survived that inside of it, right? 
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Jan 26, 2013 01:15
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He's either really really lucky, or really really unlucky. I can't imagine that didn't end with massive burns to most of his body.
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Jan 26, 2013 01:17
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I remember reading some hilarious story where a smug F14 pilot gets "nuked" by a ANG F106 squadron during an exercise in the 80s.
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Jan 26, 2013 01:21
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Insert name here posted:You can actually seem him get blown out of the turret at around 13 seconds in. At first I thought he was outside before because there's some movement by the back of the tank before it goes up, but yeah, you definitely see him get blown out of it.
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Jan 26, 2013 01:34
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Akion posted:He's either really really lucky, or really really unlucky. I can't imagine that didn't end with massive burns to most of his body. Let alone if he didn't make it back to his unit or well not rebels....but Jesus Christ that was insane. It was almost oddly unreal. Also I only watched the initial hit and thought that was it....holy crap, how much ordinance do T-72s usually have in it?
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Jan 26, 2013 01:35
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since my question already got answered before I hit post, What type of RPG's are capable of doing that to a T72? Just regular old RPG 7s?
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Jan 26, 2013 01:38
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gfanikf posted:Let alone if he didn't make it back to his unit or well not rebels....but Jesus Christ that was insane. It was almost oddly unreal. That looks like it may be a fuel fire, or at least not the ordnance going off. This is what it looks like when the ordnance goes off: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42e9PMaEjGA
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Jan 26, 2013 01:40
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Branis posted:since my question already got answered before I hit post, What type of RPG's are capable of doing that to a T72? Just regular old RPG 7s? Yes, but ATGMs will do it more reliably.
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Jan 26, 2013 01:41
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Might be a detonation of the ready round or a propellant fire, but it seems way too intense and short duration to be a fuel fire. Then again, I've seen a ton of car fires, but no tank fires. Edit: also, isn't that pretty much the textbook worst place to deploy armor? I understand that tanks are awesome for loving up urban strongpoints (or so classic combat mission: beyond barbossa taught me) but you need a poo poo ton of infantry.
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Jan 26, 2013 01:44
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It looked like the main gun either cooked off or was fired right as it got hit, as well.
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Jan 26, 2013 01:45
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At the end of this kind of  video, you see a classic example of how T-72s sometimes regurgitate passengers when things go poorly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVBApQohxUI
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Jan 26, 2013 01:45
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Akion posted:It looked like the main gun either cooked off or was fired right as it got hit, as well. If the breach is open, it's just one more way for gas/smoke inside the crew chamber to escape. I'm betting that was just gas venting from inside the crew compartment.
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Jan 26, 2013 01:46
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Akion posted:It looked like the main gun either cooked off or was fired right as it got hit, as well. I'm pretty sure that's just smoke venting from the cabin, through the breech, and then out the barrel. The same poo poo's pouring out of the hatch right before it flares up.
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Jan 26, 2013 01:47
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Cyrano4747 posted:I'm pretty sure that's just smoke venting from the cabin, through the breech, and then out the barrel. The same poo poo's pouring out of the hatch right before it flares up. The smoke starts coming out of the barrel shortly after it starts pouring from the hatch. But before that, at the instant of impact, the main gun actually fires. Either a round in the chamber was set off by the impact and penetration, or the gunner inadvertently fired the gun when the tank got smacked around by an exploding warhead.
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Jan 26, 2013 01:52
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mlmp08 posted:That looks like it may be a fuel fire, or at least not the ordnance going off. This is what it looks like when the ordnance goes off: Wow. That is crazy, thanks.
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Jan 26, 2013 01:52
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mlmp08 posted:At the end of this kind of That's a T-55. Also:
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Jan 26, 2013 02:17
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Smiling Jack posted:I remember reading some hilarious story where a smug F14 pilot gets "nuked" by a ANG F106 squadron during an exercise in the 80s. F-16, but yeah. From July: Frozen Horse posted:Apparently it was also useful in exercises for making F-16 pilots say "I was killed by a what?" Hilarious. "Why are we training against this old aircraft hurghgh ... wait, you have a what"
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Jan 26, 2013 02:25
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The CF-101 Voodoos also carried the Genie.  I think the EF-101B "Electric Voodoo" had the baddest rear end paint scheme  gently caress yo low viz
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Jan 26, 2013 02:46
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We need more black fighter jets. They look so sinister.
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Jan 26, 2013 02:53
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gotta say, a red-on-black canadian flag looks shockingly bad rear end
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Jan 26, 2013 02:57
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VX-9 says hi:
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Jan 26, 2013 03:01
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 PLAYBOY BUNNY SEXUAL HARASSMENT CMSAF oh wait it's a navy plane okay
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Jan 26, 2013 03:05
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