Horrible Mechanical Failures: Looks Like the Tin Man's Undies After Taco Tuesday

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Automotive Insanity > Horrible Mechanical Failures: Looks Like the Tin Man's Undies After Taco Tuesday

«‹›1211 »

randomidiot: May 12, 2006; by Fluffdaddy
(and can't post for 11 years!)

CommieGIR posted:

I'm sure its more an accountants doing than engineering. They no doubt save a lot on not having to forge and flesh out actual metal headers for each car rolling down the assembly line.

I'm sure part of it is cost, a big part is also likely weight savings; a plastic intake manifold is just a few pounds. When you're trying to get every bit of MPG out of a car to meet CAFE requirements, you look at every possible way to shave weight.

# ? Jan 26, 2013 05:15

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 9, 2024 06:16

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

some texas redneck posted:

I'm sure part of it is cost, a big part is also likely weight savings; a plastic intake manifold is just a few pounds. When you're trying to get every bit of MPG out of a car to meet CAFE requirements, you look at every possible way to shave weight.

If it's lighter and cheaper and works just as good... what's the issue?

# ? Jan 26, 2013 05:30

randomidiot: May 12, 2006; by Fluffdaddy
(and can't post for 11 years!)

I'm not arguing against them. :v:

My only gripe is on my particular car, the intake manifold faces the front of the car.. so f I get in an accident severe enough to push the radiator back, the manifold will also get broken.

But seeing as I drive a GM economy car that's over a year old, anything bad enough to push the radiator in will be an easy write-off anyway :haw:

# ? Jan 26, 2013 06:11

Carteret: Nov 10, 2012

I don't think I've ever owned a car with a plastic manifold. Maybe I'm just weird, or Hyundai is retarded, by my GenCoupe mani is still metal :confused:

# ? Jan 26, 2013 06:15

bull3964: Nov 18, 2000; DO YOU HEAR THAT? THAT'S THE SOUND OF ME PATTING MYSELF ON THE BACK.

CommieGIR posted:

I'm sure its more an accountants doing than engineering. They no doubt save a lot on not having to forge and flesh out actual metal headers for each car rolling down the assembly line.

They're lighter and they actually flow better.

# ? Jan 26, 2013 06:20

TrueChaos: Nov 14, 2006

DJ Commie posted:

Absolutely do not use PVC ever in an engine compartment. It softens around 120F and outgasses pretty nasty stuff not much higher than that. ABS pipe is okay, but its not really made for anything with forces on it, be it pressure or vacuum.

edit: Hell, it melts at like 170F

Ehh... Sch80 PVC is rated to a max operating temp of 140F, and maximum operating pressure of 130+ in 12" diameter, up to 500PSI in 1/2". Looses ~20% of its pressure rating at 140F. All Sch80 is suitable for use under 29.92"Hg vacuum up to 140F as well... All this as per ASTM standards.

We use it pretty extensively in remediation systems dealing with vacuum/pressure applications.

# ? Jan 26, 2013 06:27

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

Carteret posted:

I don't think I've ever owned a car with a plastic manifold. Maybe I'm just weird, or Hyundai is retarded, by my GenCoupe mani is still metal

This is really surprising because every other iteration of the lambda v6 has a plastic manifold. Or is yours a theta 2 turbo?

# ? Jan 26, 2013 06:29

eddiewalker: Apr 28, 2004; Arrrr ye landlubber

some texas redneck posted:

I'm not arguing against them. My only gripe is on my particular car, the intake manifold faces the front of the car.. so f I get in an accident severe enough to push the radiator back, the manifold will also get broken.

But seeing as I drive a GM economy car that's over a year old, anything bad enough to push the radiator in will be an easy write-off anyway

It's a crumple zone!

# ? Jan 26, 2013 06:43

Carteret: Nov 10, 2012

Slavvy posted:

This is really surprising because every other iteration of the lambda v6 has a plastic manifold. Or is yours a theta 2 turbo?

Nope. 3.8.

Stock Photo:

# ? Jan 26, 2013 06:53

Alarbus: Mar 31, 2010

The intake manifold on the BMW N52 is plastic, I swapped the one on my 2006. It's solid as hell, but certainly not metal.

# ? Jan 26, 2013 07:15

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

Carteret posted:

Nope. 3.8.

Stock Photo:

Interesting. Looks like they went for more of a high-port sort of runner design, as opposed to the squat spaghetti manifold of the less performancy cars. It looks really crammed in there too; I've never worked on one unfortunately.

# ? Jan 26, 2013 08:35

Sir Cornelius: Oct 30, 2011

CommieGIR posted:

Something dropped in two cylinders from what I can tell...

Probably not be before the timing belt snapped.

# ? Jan 26, 2013 08:51

FAT32 SHAMER: Aug 16, 2012

Goober Peas posted:

Excerpts on Elise ownership from Grassroots' forum:

"There just seem to be too many drawbacks to daily driving one. Bumped in parking lot? Car is totaled. Run over a speed bump too fast? Car is totaled. Scrape too hard on driveway? Car is totaled. Run over a board? Car is totaled. Hit a possum or roadkill? Car is totaled.

It's awesome in theory, but the reality is that you have to have the right kind of driveway, the right kind of neighborhood, you have to scope out parking lots and make sure you can enter and exit without messing up your car, and you HAVE to use heart healthy parking. God help you if it's a small parking lot."

"Very good points, rotard. I'm not sure people realize how easy it is to damage a clamshell beyond (reasonable) repair, and how breathtakingly expensive they are to replace. For that reason alone, I would never daily drive one... and it is a big factor in why I don't own one right now.

FYI folks, rotard is almost not exaggerating. While a busted clamshell on its own won't total the car, you're looking at $5k+ just in paint and parts, never mind the labor, for something as simple as a parking lot bump. If anything underneath it gets damaged... look out.

EDIT: Yes, full coverage is a must. However, I can't imagine your insurance company hanging onto you after more than one pricey repair."

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/quickly-school-me-in-lotus-elises-2005/42507/page1/

I don't remember them ever being this expensive in the UK... Can a Brit chime in to confirm? :ohdear:

Not that it matters for me anymore.

# ? Jan 26, 2013 08:52

cakesmith handyman: Jul 22, 2007; Pip-Pip old chap! Last one in is a rotten egg what what.

Tusen Takk posted:

I don't remember them ever being this expensive in the UK... Can a Brit chime in to confirm?

Not that it matters for me anymore.

Although not an owner myself, I remember the vx220 can be bought as a cat c, fr & rr clamshell damage, for less than 8k, maybe 6k nowadays. Those assemblies are ridiculously expensive - I still think there's a market for a cheap simple aftermarket clamshell.

Whoa, just checked & good ones can be had for 6k. I'm way out of touch.

cakesmith handyman fucked around with this message at 10:54 on Jan 26, 2013

# ? Jan 26, 2013 10:50

You Am I: May 20, 2001; Me @ your poasting

some texas redneck posted:

I'm not arguing against them. My only gripe is on my particular car, the intake manifold faces the front of the car.. so f I get in an accident severe enough to push the radiator back, the manifold will also get broken.

So? If the manifolds were mounted the other way, it would be the exhaust copping the damage. Can't see why the intake taking the damage to be any worse, either way the car is hosed.

I have heard horrible things about the plastic inlet manifolds used on Ford V6s, warping in the heat.

# ? Jan 26, 2013 13:33

Longinus00: Dec 29, 2005; Ur-Quan

You Am I posted:

So? If the manifolds were mounted the other way, it would be the exhaust copping the damage. Can't see why the intake taking the damage to be any worse, either way the car is hosed.

I have heard horrible things about the plastic inlet manifolds used on Ford V6s, warping in the heat.

Not to mention it's probably better if the manifold gets broken instead of transferring the impact to the engine/transmission.

# ? Jan 26, 2013 15:41

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

bull3964 posted:

They're lighter and they actually flow better.

Lighter yes, but flow better?

# ? Jan 26, 2013 16:17

SwashedBuckles: Aug 10, 2007; Have at you!

CommieGIR posted:

Lighter yes, but flow better?

Maybe a smoother interior surface due to the manufacturing? :shrug:

# ? Jan 26, 2013 16:30

Lord Gaga: May 9, 2010

Falkenbok posted:

I was looking at it and thinking it was maybe a casting positive (Normally you'd do it with Papier m�ch�), but that's giving perhaps too much benefit of the doubt.

Its not a very good intake design as is IMO (not much plenum volume, not much space between stacks and surface of pipe) but if I only wanted to make one of them, Id totally do it that way with some lower temp plastic (if possible) glue on a place for a big riser and the sprue, take some refractory cement and fill it right up. Stick in sand, fill with aluminum.

Doing an aluminum melt that big would be kinda tricky though not many people have crucibles that hold that much in their back yard.

# ? Jan 26, 2013 21:00

revmoo: May 25, 2006; #basta

I have no problem with plastic intake manifolds but plastic valve covers can gently caress right off.

# ? Jan 26, 2013 22:09

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

revmoo posted:

I have no problem with plastic intake manifolds but plastic valve covers can gently caress right off.

It must just be me, but screw plastic parts anywhere related to the engine, coolant system, intake, exhaust, etc.

I've broken one too many plastic coolant flanges.

# ? Jan 26, 2013 22:21

InitialDave: Jun 14, 2007; I Want To Believe.

I once undid a plastic nut on my E30, and the metal stud it was attached to sheared off instead. What the hell, Germans?

# ? Jan 26, 2013 22:30

Knobjockey: Jul 21, 2003; Crush your enemies.
Bang! and the alien is gone.
Hear the lamentation of Dr. Vahlen.

InitialDave posted:

I once undid a plastic nut on my E30, and the metal stud it was attached to sheared off instead. What the hell, Germans?

Superior German er... nuts?

# ? Jan 26, 2013 22:40

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

revmoo posted:

I have no problem with plastic intake manifolds but plastic valve covers can gently caress right off.

Once again, every single non-exotic modern car has a plastic valve cover (magnesium is still superior in some ways) and the only time I've seen a broken one was when the owner took it off himself and dropped it v :shobon:

v

Plastic manifolds don't flow better because of texture or anything, it's because the casting can be much finer, with much narrower edges and more delicate fins and so on.

# ? Jan 26, 2013 23:04

smax: Nov 9, 2009

TrueChaos posted:

Ehh... Sch80 PVC is rated to a max operating temp of 140F, and maximum operating pressure of 130+ in 12" diameter, up to 500PSI in 1/2". Looses ~20% of its pressure rating at 140F. All Sch80 is suitable for use under 29.92"Hg vacuum up to 140F as well... All this as per ASTM standards.

We use it pretty extensively in remediation systems dealing with vacuum/pressure applications.

I was thinking this same thing. What remediation systems do you deal with/what do you do for a living? I was just thinking about PVC stingers used for MDPE of LNAPL (that's not technobabble, I swear).

I'm used to seeing PVC withstanding ~20 in Hg of vacuum for extended periods of time while sucking up slugs of water and product. The stuff's stronger than a lot of people give it credit for, but it still doesn't belong in an engine compartment.

# ? Jan 27, 2013 01:13

EightBit: Jan 7, 2006; I spent money on this line of text just to make the "Stupid Newbie" go away.

The atmosphere can't really exert more than about 14-15psi of pressure on a vacuum line, you don't really need good crush resistance when using it like that.

# ? Jan 27, 2013 01:42

DJ Commie: Feb 29, 2004; Stupid drivers always breaking car, Gronk fix car...

TrueChaos posted:

Ehh... Sch80 PVC is rated to a max operating temp of 140F, and maximum operating pressure of 130+ in 12" diameter, up to 500PSI in 1/2". Looses ~20% of its pressure rating at 140F. All Sch80 is suitable for use under 29.92"Hg vacuum up to 140F as well... All this as per ASTM standards.

We use it pretty extensively in remediation systems dealing with vacuum/pressure applications.

Of course engine bay temps cruise around 200F, engine coolant is similar. PVC is a noodle at that temperature.

# ? Jan 27, 2013 07:22

TrueChaos: Nov 14, 2006

smax posted:

I was thinking this same thing. What remediation systems do you deal with/what do you do for a living? I was just thinking about PVC stingers used for MDPE of LNAPL (that's not technobabble, I swear).

I'm used to seeing PVC withstanding ~20 in Hg of vacuum for extended periods of time while sucking up slugs of water and product. The stuff's stronger than a lot of people give it credit for, but it still doesn't belong in an engine compartment.

I work for a company that manufactures remediation systems - SVE, DPE, groundwater treatment, air sparge, oxygen injection, etc. basically the systems that connect to stingers, well pumps, etc. I do everything from quoting, to mechanical design, backup for tech support, all that kinda stuff. You involved in the industry somehow?

DJ Commie posted:

Of course engine bay temps cruise around 200F, engine coolant is similar. PVC is a noodle at that temperature.

Yeah, I know. Just saying that its stronger than you think. I'd never put it in an engine compartment.

# ? Jan 27, 2013 08:53

Throatwarbler: Nov 17, 2008; by vyelkin

Slavvy posted:

Once again, every single non-exotic modern car has a plastic valve cover (magnesium is still superior in some ways) and the only time I've seen a broken one was when the owner took it off himself and dropped it vv

Plastic manifolds don't flow better because of texture or anything, it's because the casting can be much finer, with much narrower edges and more delicate fins and so on.

Valve cover? As in the thing that covers the valves?

# ? Jan 27, 2013 09:23

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocker_cover

Different nomenclatures for different...folklatures? Technically does cover the valves.

# ? Jan 27, 2013 09:40

FAT32 SHAMER: Aug 16, 2012

I've only ever heard them called valve covers. In the Michigan/Canada, the UK, and Australia anyways. I've never heard of rocker covers before :v:

# ? Jan 27, 2013 10:00

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

Tusen Takk posted:

I've only ever heard them called valve covers. In the Michigan/Canada, the UK, and Australia anyways. I've never heard of rocker covers before

Depends on how old and salty the mechanic you're talking to is. They're rocker covers to anyone over 40 I've found.

# ? Jan 27, 2013 10:01

randomidiot: May 12, 2006; by Fluffdaddy
(and can't post for 11 years!)

Slavvy posted:

Once again, every single non-exotic modern car has a plastic valve cover

Okay, my 2006 may not be completely "modern" today, but GM is still using the same engine family in plenty of other cars.

The valve cover is definitely metal, though it has a gigantic sheet of plastic covering said metal valve cover.

# ? Jan 27, 2013 10:05

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

some texas redneck posted:

Okay, my 2006 may not be completely "modern" today, but GM is still using the same engine family in plenty of other cars.

The valve cover is definitely metal, though it has a gigantic sheet of plastic covering said metal valve cover.

GM are pretty behind technologically; I'd say the more modern iterations have plastic covers. I've seen several engines go from alloy to plastic over one model cycle.

2006 is ancient history from a manufacturer perspective unfortunately :shobon:

# ? Jan 27, 2013 10:09

cakesmith handyman: Jul 22, 2007; Pip-Pip old chap! Last one in is a rotten egg what what.

Funny, to me rocker covers are the plastic covers for the sills at the side of the car. Comes from working for a Japanese company that learned all its car words from America I suppose.

# ? Jan 27, 2013 10:19

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

When I worked for toyota I once sold a fog light where the part name on the packaging said FOGRANPU.

# ? Jan 27, 2013 10:27

FAT32 SHAMER: Aug 16, 2012

Cakefool posted:

Funny, to me rocker covers are the plastic covers for the sills at the side of the car. Comes from working for a Japanese company that learned all its car words from America I suppose.

Now that you said it, this sounds familiar.

some texas redneck posted:

Okay, my 2006 may not be completely "modern" today, but GM is still using the same engine family in plenty of other cars.

The valve cover is definitely metal, though it has a gigantic sheet of plastic covering said metal valve cover.