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Are we talking about a different version of Strange Journey that I don't know about because Kaneko was the artist for that.
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Jan 27, 2013 08:11
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TurnipFritter posted:Are we talking about a different version of Strange Journey that I don't know about because Kaneko was the artist for that. Really? I thought he was long gone by then! Well then that's why I like SJ's art so much I guess. Trademarked posted:P3 spoilers. Isn't Shinji canonically dead? If you finish his S-Link in P3P's female side, it's revealed that he survives the gunshot because of some stuff that happens in the S-Link and he wakes up at the end of the game. I guess it boils down to whether or not you accept P3P as canon? I would, because Shinjiro is my favorite cast member.
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Jan 27, 2013 08:12
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Policenaut posted:Really? I thought he was long gone by then! Well then that's why I like SJ's art so much I guess. I think P4A reveals P3's MC as male, so sadly not
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Jan 27, 2013 08:23
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I don't know if this is true, but I heard Kaneko was one of the main people that led to Strange Journey even being made, because he wanted to do more character/demon designs. It would explain why there was a good amount of new demons and redesigns for old demons in it, and why the character designs (especially the Demonica and Demon-Jiminez) look so great.
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Jan 27, 2013 08:25
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Policenaut posted:Really? I thought he was long gone by then! Well then that's why I like SJ's art so much I guess. If I'm remembering correctly, Shinji's still fated to die pretty soon even then making his 'coma' a pyrrhic victory at best
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Jan 27, 2013 08:28
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AlternateNu posted:It would be pretty sweet if they rounded out the P3/P4 characters with a final follow-up game that ties up all the loose ends from P4A weeeeee, possible Nyarlathotep. Takes place a year later. All the P4 guys are out of high school, so we can go on pseudo-adult adventures, a la P2. And it would give them the chance to reintroduce Fuuka, Junpei, Adachi, and a (P3 spoiler) no-longer-comatose Shinji. Hell, we could even have a massive Velvet Room reunion. If we're going the Nyarlathotep route, I'd really want to see some Persona 2 characters come back since they have some insight as to his nature. I never played Eternal punishment but half heartedly read some spoilers for it, but I didn't catch any info on the ending: at the end of the game does the IS timeline get restored or is EP the 'canon' timeline that P3/P4 take place in? That would determine which characters I want to see. Have Tatsuya and Jun or Baofu show up and do stuff. I have to say now that I've put some time in P2, I kind of prefer the structure of that game over the split between standard SMT dungeon stuff and the dating sim stuff. In my minds eye, it really takes the urgency off the story when the plot only advances one step every in game month. If we're bringing back stuff from P2 though, Philemon needs to come back and give everyone wildcards. DeathSandwich fucked around with this message at 08:33 on Jan 27, 2013 |
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Jan 27, 2013 08:30
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:If I'm remembering correctly, Shinji's still fated to die pretty soon even then making his 'coma' a pyrrhic victory at best Yeah, I think I remember something about the side-effects of the drug he was taking causing that? DeathSandwich posted:If we're going the Nyarlathotep route, I'd really want to see some Persona 2 characters come back since they have some insight as to his nature. I never played Eternal punishment but half heartedly read some spoilers for it, but I didn't see any info on it: by the end of the game does the IS timeline get restored or is EP the 'canon' timeline that P3/P4 take place in? That would determine which characters I want to see. Have Tatsuya and Jun or Baofu show up and do stuff. It's been awhile since I cleared IS/EP but I believe that EP is the canon timeline everyone went forward with.
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Jan 27, 2013 08:33
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King of Solomon posted:Oh, that artist has shitloads of problems when drawing ladies. The boobs are just the most obvious example. Also, this gives me another chance to post this image (I love posting this image): That I exactly what I have been thinking this whole time. All the major female characters just look... wrong, in all these different ways. Also, should I just wait to fight Q till a NG+? He seems a little tougher than he should be at where I am in game.
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Jan 27, 2013 08:39
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I do like how the social sim stuff works with the dungeon stuff in P3/P4, but I think both of them had separate issues with structure. Persona 3 was way too strict and structured. Is it the full moon (Y/N)? If Y, plot happens. If N, plot largely does not happen, or does happen but not in a way that means you have to do any fighting. It did mean that a lot of tension was sort of lost, and I know I only ever really did the dungeons in the last week. Persona 4 had a step forward in that the game set its own schedule, and for the most part I thought that worked really well... until you complete Void Quest and get a far too long period of time where nothing happens and no progress is made. The game really could've used another dungeon between Void Quest and Secret Base; I know the idea there is that everyone thinks the investigation is over until Naoto intentionally gets kidnapped, but nobody playing the game believes that. Persona 3 I think had better 'dungeon' gameplay than 4, though. Sure there was only one, but it changed plenty, I liked the 'tired' mechanic, and the other team members felt more like actual people.
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Jan 27, 2013 08:51
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Cleretic posted:I do like how the social sim stuff works with the dungeon stuff in P3/P4, but I think both of them had separate issues with structure. I'll agree that as a whole I liked Tartarus better than the P4 dungeons, because the P4 dungeons wound up being 90% long empty hallways with a 2x2 room every so often. Tartarus did a better job of nailing that twisted, claustrophobic, shifting dungeon feel with a variety of interlocking rooms and just having it be more compact in general. If they did go back to Persona 2 style game structure for P5, it's still possible to make s-links work. You can instead shift it to miniquest stuff similar to Elizabeth in FES. Just structure it so that you can only rank X arcana up to Y level after doing Z dungeon.
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Jan 27, 2013 09:05
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DeathSandwich posted:That would determine which characters I want to see. Have Tatsuya and Jun or Baofu show up and do stuff. Tatsuya can't show up though, because IIRC the EP side Tatsuya never played the Persona game, and thus does not have a persona, while IS Tatsuya is on the original side, living in Apocalyptic Sumaru City.
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Jan 27, 2013 12:25
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^No one from IS can, for the same reason as Tatsuya, actually.Cleretic posted:Persona 3 I think had better 'dungeon' gameplay than 4, though. Sure there was only one, but it changed plenty, I liked the 'tired' mechanic, and the other team members felt more like actual people. I don't think that's a very popular opinion  The gameplay mechanic just served to randomly screw you up and was just fustrating, before being pushed to being pretty much non existant. Your party members being separate entities, on the other hand, just doesn't work well at all: Having to separately speak to each party member just to change something in their equipment, and pray they don't decide to use the thing that they used 20 hours ago for no good reason is not fun, and neither is having to rely entirely on the good will of the AI not to have Mitsuru casting a Lind Charged Marin Karin instead of a much needed Dia.If P5 go back to the P2 style, I hope they'll keep some kind of calendar in some way or another, just to support the point that your characters have lives, relationships and jobs, and that they can't just pick up and romaing all day in the city. Oh, and keep demons out of it. Iceclaw fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Jan 27, 2013 |
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Jan 27, 2013 12:37
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I dunno, I kind of enjoyed the tired mechanic as well. At least, it served the purpose of establishing a more controlled pace. When they more or less outright removed it from P3P, I felt like the game's overall pacing suffered for the worse. The tiredness mechanic certainly had its faults, but removing it without any good replacement was a mistake. Persona 4 completely reworked how dungeons and story progression worked, so tiredness was no longer necessary. They really did a good job in that regard, a few weird lulls not withstanding. As for AI control, again, the changes they made in P4 were probably for the best, but I still kind of liked it for the same reason as Cleretic. Maybe it's because I played P3 before P4 even came out, and maybe it's because I did most of my playing with FES, which made at least minor improvements to the AI. But I really did feel like I was in command of other people, and that their personalities showed through in how they did battle. It made for a pretty interesting marriage of story and battle. So really, both these systems, while flawed, still were positive contributions to the game as a whole, I felt.
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Jan 27, 2013 12:45
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Well, the AI do mostly works, it just lacks an emergency "Drop whatever the gently caress you are doing now and do that" button that allows you to force a move from a teammate. I mean, you still are supposed to be the leader, yet you can only at best just give some vague orders. Oh it takes far too long for SEES to realize that focusing on hitting weaknesses is a good thing. Not having a menu from which you can set everyone's equipement is just a bore, though.
Iceclaw fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Jan 27, 2013 |
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Jan 27, 2013 12:50
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Iceclaw posted:Well, it do mostly works, it just lacks an emergency "Drop whatever the gently caress you are doing now and do that" button that allows you to force a move from a teammate. Not having a menu from which you can set everyone's equipement is just a bore, though. Yeah, I will agree there were some big interface issues with that. Also I remember there being other random interface issues in FES, mostly relating to personas and fusing. Maybe a good compromise would have been to be able tell one character per turn to do a specific action, having to do it on the MC's turn.
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Jan 27, 2013 12:53
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I'd prefer a "Give orders" button that you can do on your turn that allows you to issue precises commands to your teammates, in the same way the Tales of serie always allows you to have an AI-controlled teammate use a specific attack, before returning to their normal pattern. And of course, being able to set to full control, but mostly, letting the AI do it things with some little nudges on your part at time would be swell. V Not in my native tongue  .
Iceclaw fucked around with this message at 13:08 on Jan 27, 2013 |
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Jan 27, 2013 12:59
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Would just like to mention it's AI, not IA.
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Jan 27, 2013 13:06
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Iceclaw posted:I'd prefer a "Give orders" button that you can do on your turn that allows you to issue precises commands to your teammates, in the same way the Tales of serie always allows you to have an AI-controlled teammate use a specific attack, before returning to their normal pattern. And of course, being able to set to full control, but mostly, letting the AI do it things with some little nudges on your part at time would be swell. Well, I'm a crazy motherfucker in that I feel like a system where you really do have only limited control of your party members could make for an interesting game if you execute on it properly. It feels like Atlus just kind of gave up instead of truly improving the system, which I honestly find a little unfortunate. I'd like to see a game without a full control option do it right. To be clear, I do think that having full control is ultimately better than the system we saw in P3 and FES, but maybe it would have been even better if they tried harder to make big improvements to that system rather than giving you the option for Full Control. Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Jan 27, 2013 |
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Jan 27, 2013 13:23
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Fiend Computer posted:Also, should I just wait to fight Q till a NG+? He seems a little tougher than he should be at where I am in game. If you can manage it, Q makes a great party member for a good chunk of time, the Fiend racial is goddamn amazing. Beating him pretty much requires you hold nothing back. Unequip all demons from anybody else in your party, pack all your best skills on MC, including Force Dance, on your main (assuming you went Magic). Position yourself so you can only be attacked once between your turns, but don't defeat every enemy besides Q, or he'll run. Eventually, drop in right next to him and wreck his poo poo, just remember to go from distant to next to him in one go, using a beast racial if necessary.
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Jan 27, 2013 13:53
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:their personalities showed through in how they did battle. You must have found Mitsuru to be incredibly charming.  P3 forced the MC to be everything. It wasn't an interaction with party members - it was accepting that they were worthless and turning combat into a single character experience. Sure, sometimes they'd work out, but if the dice in the AI were unkind then you'd have to reload. It didn't bother me because I knew this coming in and prepared for it, but the AI was definitely all about Marin Karin. What did bother me about FES was that I didn't check gamefaqs ahead of time and the tired mechanic screwed me to the wall.
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Jan 27, 2013 14:41
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I used a team of Junpei, Aigis and Ken, and they never really seemed to be too stupid. I mean there was only so much Ken could do in a given situation, but other than that they were pretty good. I think it was only Mitsuru that was absolutely retarded, although in certain fights you did have to keep them on a tight leash. The only time that team composition bit me in the rear end was that I couldn't do any dungeoneering for most of December. Oh, also that I had pretty much none of my A-Team on deck for the Hermit fight, that kinda hurt. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Jan 27, 2013 |
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Jan 27, 2013 14:50
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Well, I'm a crazy motherfucker in that I feel like a system where you really do have only limited control of your party members could make for an interesting game if you execute on it properly. It feels like Atlus just kind of gave up instead of truly improving the system, which I honestly find a little unfortunate. I'd like to see a game without a full control option do it right. In all honesty, a system like that could rule in an RPG that's more about people stuck together and being forced to work together out of necessity or something, but in a game where you're supposed to be a tight unit with you calling the shots, it's kinda odd to not be able to go "Hey Junpei, you know that thing that's resisting your slashing? I'm just saying, but maybe your fire attacks will work better."
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Jan 27, 2013 15:01
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Cleretic posted:I do like how the social sim stuff works with the dungeon stuff in P3/P4, but I think both of them had separate issues with structure. 4 had too much anime high-school and not enough dungeon crawling by a pretty large margin, in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, it's still a good game, but the balance was off. Also, 3 was better about not encouraging you to do all of your dungeon crawling for that time period in a single day, even in P3P where you could.
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Jan 27, 2013 16:49
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Ni no Kuni does the soft-controllable AI thing quite well. You can take over for individual party members if need be, otherwise you can tell them all to attack or defend with a simple button press. You also get persona/pokemon/"familiars" to fight with, so if SMT ever switched to active combat, I think it would look a lot like this.
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Jan 27, 2013 17:18
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Terper posted:Would just like to mention it's AI, not IA. Intelligence artificielle. 
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Jan 27, 2013 17:33
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The Moon Monster posted:4 had too much anime high-school and not enough dungeon crawling by a pretty large margin, in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, it's still a good game, but the balance was off. When I played Persona 4 a lot of the time I felt like it was actively trying to discourage me from experiencing the actual gameplay. Ignoring the often painfully long cutscenes (I'm pretty sure the school trip takes like, two hours if you listen to all the voice acting?), the game seemed structured around making it more efficient to do all your dungeon crawling in a single day and then never going back until the next dungeon opens up. In Persona 3 you went to the dungeon at night, where there's pretty much gently caress-all to do except for a couple of social links or stat raising things, so you could pretty safely say "I feel like going to Tartarus tonight" without any consequences. But in Persona 4 you go to the dungeon during the day, when the bulk of your Social Links are, and your night is wasted too unless Dojima or Nanako wants to hang out or there's a courage boost in the fridge. Of course you don't have to play the game going for max efficiency, but the game is still structured in a way that discourages going to the dungeon just because you feel like it. The way the time limits for dungeons are set up also kind of puts pressure on you to hurry up and get the dungeon done in as few days as possible, at least on your first playthrough. I'd say the game setting its own schedule is better than Persona 3's schedule of plot happening once a month, but the first time I played Persona 4 and my deadline was a complete unknown, I felt pretty stressed to get the dungeon done in a day or two, and after that there's really no reason to go back since all the quests and the optional boss don't open up until after the deadline passes. I liked Persona 3's set-up of telling you exactly how long you had to prepare for the boss, so you could plan your Tartarus trips around that rather than rushing to get them done immediately because you're afraid you won't be able to get the dungeon done before the fog sets in, whenever that may end up happening. I just feel like Persona 4 is a high school sim first and an RPG second, while Persona 3 feels a bit more balanced.
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Jan 27, 2013 17:44
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TurnipFritter posted:Strange Journey crosses the line that Nocturne straddled and ends up being a whole lotta bullshit. That game made no sense to me with its stat distribution. I ended with a luck demonica my first time, my highest stat ended up being magic the entire time with agility a close second.
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Jan 27, 2013 17:46
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This Persona 3 praise is kind of blowing my mind. Persona 3 had awful, awful pacing issues for pretty much the entire game. Not only did you have constant long stretches of nothing happening (because of the strict adherence to the Full Moon model of things happening) punctuated by dungeon trips with little motivation, you have a long period of doing nothing following Ikutski's shebang that was far worse than the small interim between Void Quest and Secret Base. Persona 4 gave you a reason to be doing these dungeons. Persona 3 felt like mindless grinding the whole way through.
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Jan 27, 2013 18:22
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P3 had the worst pacing of any video game I've ever played, so P4 was much better in that regard. As far as the dungeons go through, I prefer Tartarus. They tried to make them more interesting in 4 by adding doors and corridors and stuff, but they were still complete garbage and unfun to go through. Being able to just skip any floor in a few seconds like Tartarus meant I could just get to a save point and not risk dying. Also, it was impossible to sneak up on shadows in 4. Even if you attacked them from behind, they would still start off normally. You also couldn't dodge ones that saw you at all, making traversing the floors way more tedious.
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Jan 27, 2013 18:33
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Momomo posted:Also, it was impossible to sneak up on shadows in 4. Even if you attacked them from behind, they would still start off normally. You also couldn't dodge ones that saw you at all, making traversing the floors way more tedious. Neither of these statements is true.
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Jan 27, 2013 18:40
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Yeah uh Shadows in 4 are incredibly easy to get the drop on. The lag between them seeing you and responding to you is such that, even if they're looking straight at you, you have enough time to dash past them and pivot for the advantage strike.
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Jan 27, 2013 18:47
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I prefer P4's dungeons if only because they actually had different environments and music, instead of just pallet-swapping out stuff every 10 floors or whatever. In P4G they made it very easy to sneak up on Shadows; I probably had the imitative in like 90% of the battles. I don't remember it being too hard in vanilla P4 either though.
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Jan 27, 2013 18:49
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Captain Oblivious posted:Yeah uh Well I don't know what to say, it almost never gave me initiative when I attacked from behind. They also move faster than you do, so if one spots you, you're forced to fight it.
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Jan 27, 2013 18:52
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Shadows in 4 have a real hard time with corners and doors. The dungeons are almost nothing but corners and doors.
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Jan 27, 2013 18:53
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Momomo posted:Well I don't know what to say, it almost never gave me initiative when I attacked from behind. They also move faster than you do, so if one spots you, you're forced to fight it. This is different from random battles in any game ever how I mean, you're on their turf. Obviously you have to fight through. It's not like you can't use the scratch you get from selling their drops or anything.
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Jan 27, 2013 19:54
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It's different from P3, the very game I was comparing it to? I had no problem at all getting initiative in that.
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Jan 27, 2013 19:56
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Captain Oblivious posted:This Persona 3 praise is kind of blowing my mind. In my case was the opposite. In P3 I could do an entire section of the Tartarus as soon as it was available in one night leaving me the rest of the month to hang out with friends, working on my stats and scoring chicks. P4 was a total drag and since the time slot for the Midnight Channel was the same slot for a LOT of S. Links I was often doing the dungeon in the nick of time and merely to advance the plot. Different strokes I guess v vPolicenaut posted:Yeah, I think I remember something about the side-effects of the drug he was taking causing that? 
Dark_Tzitzimine fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Jan 27, 2013 |
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Jan 27, 2013 20:00
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Ken very well might be the worst Persona party member character.
Nate RFB fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Jan 27, 2013 |
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Jan 27, 2013 20:09
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Nate RFB posted:Ken very well might be the worst Persona character. Hey hey hey. There's still half the cast of Persona 1. I mean I dislike Ken, but I mean he at least had a personality.
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Jan 27, 2013 20:15
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Nate RFB posted:Ken very well might be the worst Persona party member character. At least Nemesis looked pretty cool! Theeeeenn there was Kala-nemi..
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