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Sober posted:I'm at war with the Date clan in the far east, as is pretty much the entire rest of the map, but the three or four big powers (including myself) are sitting right next to one another with my bigger "ally" (he has maybe 4-5 more provinces than me) seated right between them. Of course, I have Kyushu and Shikoku but he has all of the western part of Japan, so when poo poo starts to go down it's gonna be real nasty, which now you make me morbidly curious about. It's going to be super dumb because I have to march my troops (or sail them) past everyone else to get to the Date clan's lands to even attack them while my allies are closer. Guess I better suck it up. If you're a hair away from Realm Divide don't even worry about the Date, just consolidate what you have and start fortifying what you think you can hold. I would say it'll be extremely hard for you to lose Kyushu, especially on normal; There might be a couple of naval invasion forces sent to the north of the island it should be incredibly easy to beat them back. So worst case scenario you lose all your holdings outside Kyushu, but then you can go on the offensive again and claw your way through Honshu without having to worry about allies that'll knife you in the back. While the beginning part of Realm Divide can be extremely hectic and threatening it isn't the same kind of existential crisis for the Kyushu and Shikoku clans. Koramei fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Jan 31, 2013 |
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Jan 31, 2013 06:23
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Yeah I think being at war with them is whatever. I've been spending most of my turns trying to figure out my provinces, though I kinda wished I had some idea of what to do with them economically as my market/sake den chains have only really gone to 2 and only border castle towns are 3 or 4 stages up. poo poo gets expensive and I can barely afford a building upgrade per turn.
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Jan 31, 2013 06:26
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Sober posted:Yeah I think being at war with them is whatever. I've been spending most of my turns trying to figure out my provinces, though I kinda wished I had some idea of what to do with them economically as my market/sake den chains have only really gone to 2 and only border castle towns are 3 or 4 stages up. poo poo gets expensive and I can barely afford a building upgrade per turn. Really? Well that's going to be an issue then; you ought to be making like 10,000 koku a turn before Realm Divide. Are you making use of metsuke? How upgraded are your farms, how upgraded are your ports? Since you have Kyushu you have free access to 4 trade nodes; those are worth like 16,000 alone. Do you just have a fuckoff enormous army or something? edit: which is to some a valid strategy but I myself prefer the "throw peas at the enemy so your buildings develop" approach.
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Jan 31, 2013 06:31
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I'm barely scratching 3k koku a turn. Farms are 4/5 since I haven't been putting much into the civic arts tree to be able to upgrade them further. Metsuke I train out of a town with a library (?) and send them out from there but maxed out as well. Ports I believe I have maxed out, but I probably forgot to retake the trade spots from people I was supposed to boot out. Unfortunately I only have like 3 big armies, so yeah, my economic situation is pretty crappy. Yeah, the pre-Empire province/economic management was never one of my strong suits. 
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Jan 31, 2013 06:37
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Sober posted:I'm barely scratching 3k koku a turn. Farms are 4/5 since I haven't been putting much into the civic arts tree to be able to upgrade them further. Metsuke I train out of a town with a library (?) and send them out from there but maxed out as well. Ports I believe I have maxed out, but I probably forgot to retake the trade spots from people I was supposed to boot out. Unfortunately I only have like 3 big armies, so yeah, my economic situation is pretty crappy. Do you have a ton of ashigaru sitting in your towns to quell uprisings that you've since forgotten about or something? You really ought to be making more unless something is going horribly wrong. My only suggestions are 1. get those drat trade spots, alliances be damned since everybody is going to hate you in a little bit anyway; 2. grab Sado, the little island above the eastern half of Honshu. It has gold on it so at the least you ought to get a couple of thousand more a turn, and it's incredibly easy to defend.
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Jan 31, 2013 06:43
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I'm completely in the green with my provinces, maybe the occasional yellow but no straight up uprisings. I have maybe 3-4 at most per town, usually only 1 or two to tip happiness back over to green.
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Jan 31, 2013 06:53
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So what's this Realm Divide stuff? Started over with the Chosokabe, and I just began to take a few provinces in mainland Japan - I'm almost at Tokyo (had a huge clash with the Ikko Ikki where I killed five thousand troops). Also, is it just me or all non-Damyio wifes have the "-1 loyalty for the general" trait?
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Jan 31, 2013 07:40
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Azran posted:So what's this Realm Divide stuff? You know that fame bar you see in the clan summary page and every so often in the news pop-ups? Once it fills up everyone tries to kill you.
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Jan 31, 2013 07:45
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Sober posted:I'm completely in the green with my provinces, maybe the occasional yellow but no straight up uprisings. I have maybe 3-4 at most per town, usually only 1 or two to tip happiness back over to green. Tax higher. Tax until one of your provinces goes red, and then see if the problem can be solved with the addition of a few extra ashigaru. If it can, add the ashigaru and raise taxes further. If it can't, reduce taxes just low enough to bring the province back to yellow. You're a brutal feudal warlord, you need to properly oppress the peasants to fuel your war machine of conquest. Yellow is a good color - it means you're taxing as much as the peasants can bear. Green across the board means you're either not taxing high enough or else you're over-garrisoning. In summary, more new taxes. Edit: Three big armies before realm divide is pretty massive. Especially if they're samurai-heavy. Also, Realm Divide basically means that the Shogun has declared your power to be a threat to his rule, thus instantly causing most daimyos not already friendly with you to declare war and turn on you, while those that ARE friendly will either turn on you instantly or eventually, including any vassals you'd made earlier. After realm divide the only true friends you have will be the vassals you raise up for yourself. If your income is heavily trade dependent, expect a few lean years before you manage to raise enough vassals (i.e. guaranteed trade partners) to make up the loss of your old trade partners.
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Jan 31, 2013 08:02
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Azran posted:So what's this Realm Divide stuff? Started over with the Chosokabe, and I just began to take a few provinces in mainland Japan - I'm almost at Tokyo (had a huge clash with the Ikko Ikki where I killed five thousand troops). Also, is it just me or all non-Damyio wifes have the "-1 loyalty for the general" trait? Nah, wives have different "bonuses". If you don't like a particular bride, just turn her down. Realm Divide hits when you're either too big or conquer Kyoto. Instant, large hit to diplomacy with every single clan and even the ones you have never met try to get to you just so they can declare war. Vassals that are made POST RD don't suffer from the opinion penalty however.
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Jan 31, 2013 08:05
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I'm surprised I'm this close to Realm divine when I've never hit those similar events in RTW or M2. I had all of Western Europe, North Africa, the Levant and maybe skimming around Scythia a lot and they never declared civil war, which I thought was funny. Medieval I made the terrible mistake of doing 6 months instead of just alternating winter/summer every year and that took forever so the steppe peoples never showed up. (since that means I doubled the amount of turns) Did Empire have a similar mechanic or was their campaign map just so unbelievable large that it never mattered?
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Jan 31, 2013 08:07
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Realm Divide is a new mechanic introduced in Shogun 2 specifically as a way to prevent you from being able to play divide and conquer while controlling obscene amounts of economic and military resources compared to any potential foes. It works pretty well from a gameplay perspective as it avoids the inverse or skewed difficulty curve a lot of strategy games tend to have where the start and midgame is much more difficult and engaging than the mop-up fest of endgame.
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Jan 31, 2013 08:24
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LGD posted:Realm Divide is a new mechanic introduced in Shogun 2 specifically as a way to prevent you from being able to play divide and conquer while controlling obscene amounts of economic and military resources compared to any potential foes. It works pretty well from a gameplay perspective as it avoids the inverse or skewed difficulty curve a lot of strategy games tend to have where the start and midgame is much more difficult and engaging than the mop-up fest of endgame. Yeah, this kind of stuff is the reason why I end up preferring a full campaign of a Total War game over, say, Civilization. The end-game doesn't feel like a chore. Also, you guys weren't kidding - Chobosake archer units are extremely  . Though my Ashigaru army has gone above and beyond the call of duty, I think it's time to retire them into peacekeeping positions, and bring the Samurai and Monks.Also, the lack of siege weapons certainly confused me early on - but once I realised forcing the defender to attack means you fight away from their fortifications, I stopped caring.
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Jan 31, 2013 09:54
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Sober posted:I'm surprised I'm this close to Realm divine when I've never hit those similar events in RTW or M2. I had all of Western Europe, North Africa, the Levant and maybe skimming around Scythia a lot and they never declared civil war, which I thought was funny. Medieval I made the terrible mistake of doing 6 months instead of just alternating winter/summer every year and that took forever so the steppe peoples never showed up. (since that means I doubled the amount of turns) In terms of "Massive game-changing events"? I don't think Empire or Napoleon had any really big game-changers, no. Also, Shogun 2's event differs from the others in that it's basically set up to be inevitable and unavoidable - no matter who you are and how you play, unless you get your clan wiped out or locked into a death spiral you're going to eventually hit the Realm Divide limit and it will hurt you hard. This is in contrast to Rome's civil war mechanic which, if memory serves, only kicks off if your popularity with the people is high while your popularity with the Senate is low, or with the Mongol/Timurid invasions in Medieval, which was inevitable but which only really affected you if you played an Eastern nation of some kind.
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Jan 31, 2013 11:43
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Tomn posted:In terms of "Massive game-changing events"? I don't think Empire or Napoleon had any really big game-changers, no. Empire had some small faction-specific events, but they weren't that big of a deal. Playing Spain or Austria would force the other to declare war on you after a succession dispute. Just about any power that got a mission to conquer a specific province would have that faction declare war on you if you were playing the owner of said province no matter how good your diplomatic relationship was (Russia going after the Ottoman's vassal, for example). I think this was one of the reasons it was a weaker game overall. Shogun II took it a bit too far in the other direction, I think. Diplomacy, while already dubiously effective, became virtually meaningless except as a stalling tactic. Pre-RD vassals are basically just a newbie trap. Medieval II's papal dance and Rome's civil war struck the best balances, in my opinion. There was a real benefit to diplomacy and cultivating the proper allies. Acute Grill fucked around with this message at 12:10 on Jan 31, 2013 |
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Jan 31, 2013 12:07
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Kalos posted:Shogun II took it a bit too far in the other direction, I think. Diplomacy, while already dubiously effective, became virtually meaningless except as a stalling tactic. Pre-RD vassals are basically just a newbie trap. I like Shogun 2s honour mechanic, the AI is reluctant to do something which damages their honour, such as attacking while you have an military access agreement. So you can use them as a non-agression pack for a while. Unthinkable in Med 2.
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Jan 31, 2013 13:10
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That's true. Papal intervention is about the only thing that will prevent someone from declaring war on you in Medieval 2, and sometimes not even then.
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Jan 31, 2013 17:15
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Rabhadh posted:I like Shogun 2s honour mechanic, the AI is reluctant to do something which damages their honour, such as attacking while you have an military access agreement. So you can use them as a non-agression pack for a while. Unthinkable in Med 2. It also comes in handy if you use military access as a way to seal a trade agreement in. Which means that the faction now finds the deal satisfactory and also won't betray you in a hurry.
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Jan 31, 2013 21:53
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Tyack posted:It also comes in handy if you use military access as a way to seal a trade agreement in. Which means that the faction now finds the deal satisfactory and also won't betray you in a hurry. Hm, if you box somebody in but give them military access will make them less likely to declare war on you? As in, they'll just go through your lands in order to expand? edit: vvv I don't know if you're being facetious but thinking about it being hated by everybody really does sound like a fun challenge. Koramei fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Jan 31, 2013 |
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Jan 31, 2013 22:27
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I'm kinda tempted to try a IMMEDIATELY CAPTURE KYOTO game. Sounds like fun.
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Jan 31, 2013 22:31
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Koramei posted:Hm, if you box somebody in but give them military access will make them less likely to declare war on you? As in, they'll just go through your lands in order to expand? May have said it wrong. I meant if you give military access to a hostile enemy in exchange for trade rights they are less likely to betray you due to their honor system and it helps seal the deal.
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Jan 31, 2013 22:41
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Tyack posted:May have said it wrong. I meant if you give military access to a hostile enemy in exchange for trade rights they are less likely to betray you due to their honor system and it helps seal the deal. No no you were clear sorry, I shouldn't have quoted your post it was more me wondering. A couple of pages ago someone talked about boxing in their sister clan in RoTS and getting war declared on them pre-realm divide; the AI will always declare war on you if you box them in completely since they need somewhere to expand, but I wonder if giving them military access prevents that.
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Jan 31, 2013 22:54
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I'm looking for a  -fueled analysis of how the battle math is calculated (either Medieval or Shogun 2) - you get some stats when you look at a unit, sure, but how are they related?
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Jan 31, 2013 23:19
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Azran posted:I'm looking for a You mean a complete, mathematical crunch about how the numbers interact with one another so that you can tell how often 6 melee attack will connect with 5 melee defense, or just a breakdown on what all of the stats actually DO? If it's the former I can't even begin to help you, but if it's the latter you should be able to mouse over the stats while picking units for a Shogun 2 skirmish to get a breakdown on what each stat does.
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Feb 1, 2013 08:01
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As the Ikko-Ikki, I've been at war on pretty much every front for about as long as I can remember and still haven't hit realm divide, a war started by the Oda and the Takeda about 20 years ago. The Takeda no longer exist, and while the Oda still have 5 provinces I took all the ones I wanted, including their capital, killed their Daimyo, and brokered piece. And now I... don't really have any idea what to do. I'm still at war with the Satake, who have pretty much all of eastern Japan, and I have a city bordering Kyoto, so it's not like I'm starved for advancement opportunities, but the circumstances of this campaign have been different than what I'm used to, and I've been thinking of it entirely in terms of a crusade against the Oda and Takeda after they killed my current Daimyo's father. I'm not really sure if I care to keep playing now that it's just a normal expansionist-driven Total War campaign.
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Feb 1, 2013 10:53
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This Iceni (Britons) have been announced as the fourth Rome 2 faction. I'm happy because I totally called it. That brings us to Rome, Carthage, Macedon, and Britons with only 4 left to go. I'm assuming the next four will include Gauls, Egyptians, and Selucids. Maybe Parthians as the final faction?
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Feb 1, 2013 13:49
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a pipe smoking dog posted:This Iceni (Britons) have been announced as the fourth Rome 2 faction. I'm happy because I totally called it. Screaming Head Throwing Women, calling it now 
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Feb 1, 2013 13:54
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MadJackMcJack posted:Screaming Head Throwing Women, calling it now It's a sequel, they gotta do better. Screaming women-throwing heads is the new poo poo™.
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Feb 1, 2013 14:00
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I'm genuinely surprised. Britain always felt like a backwater when I played Rome, it seems odd to "spend" a whole faction on it. Anyway, the last four: -Seleucids -Egyptian faction -Gauls (Arverni?) -Some nomadic Eastern faction, I guess. Parthia.
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Feb 1, 2013 14:15
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It seems like a bit of a nationalist thing, what with CA being based in the UK and it being the 2nd largest market for the game after the US. Gotta say I'm kind of disappointed, as I was hoping the Germanic tribes wouldn't get overlooked. If they're not, then that means someone else more important to the time period than the Iceni will be the odd one out.
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Feb 1, 2013 15:01
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Thundercakes posted:It seems like a bit of a nationalist thing, what with CA being based in the UK and it being the 2nd largest market for the game after the US. Gotta say I'm kind of disappointed, as I was hoping the Germanic tribes wouldn't get overlooked. If they're not, then that means someone else more important to the time period than the Iceni will be the odd one out. Trust me, you'll get some factions as DLC. Also, I'm calling a more focused Birth of Rome and a late Roman Empires DLC campaigns while we're doing this.
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Feb 1, 2013 15:28
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Thundercakes posted:It seems like a bit of a nationalist thing, what with CA being based in the UK and it being the 2nd largest market for the game after the US. Nationalism seems a bit strong, with CA being a British company researching the Iceni is probably much easier and thus a common sense faction to include. Plus if a lot of the audience for the game will connect to history through that faction then it is pretty important. On a more cynical level though as SeanBeansShako points out there will be additional DLC and what better way to get you to buy it than to include very important but less publicly popular factions in among the DLC?
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Feb 1, 2013 16:36
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How could they NOT include a germanic faction in the starting 8, that would just be silly to leave out.
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Feb 1, 2013 16:44
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I expect they will have a Germanic Celt faction as AI controlled but I bet my silly internet hat that we will see fleshed out Germanic Celts, another Greecian faction and a few more as pre-order and post release DLC.
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Feb 1, 2013 16:58
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ReV VAdAUL posted:Nationalism seems a bit strong, with CA being a British company researching the Iceni is probably much easier and thus a common sense faction to include. Plus if a lot of the audience for the game will connect to history through that faction then it is pretty important. Gotta get dat monay~ But yeah, this makes sense to me. Carolus posted:How could they NOT include a germanic faction in the starting 8, that would just be silly to leave out. Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I'm suspecting that it'll be the Seleucids that get left out of the original playable factions rather than the Germans. I'm thinking Egypt, Arverni, Cimbri/Teutons, and Parthians will be the other 4, and then various Greek/successor states and barbarian tribes released as DLC.
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Feb 1, 2013 16:58
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Carolus posted:How could they NOT include a germanic faction in the starting 8, that would just be silly to leave out. I was going to say that "The German tribes didn't really do much expanding other than the Cimbri and the Teutons" but then i realized that the loving BRITONS had a slot. I hope the German invasions are implemented in some way. Those were terrifying in Roma Surrectum 
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Feb 1, 2013 17:07
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Plus to R:TW2 I just thought of - if it's anything like Shogun 2, every province will be occupied by some random tribe or whatnot of some sort that actively plays the game like any other faction, which means that if you faff around long enough it's entirely possible that some no-account Germanic tribe will blob into a massive barbarian horde looking to smash and plunder the cities of civilization.
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Feb 1, 2013 17:09
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Developer wants to include faction from their country, those nationalists! Throwing my hat in (plain hat no shako) on the faction DLC, although I won't mind much if there's more effort than a recolour and stat change.
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Feb 1, 2013 17:11
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Yes them crazy nationalist Anglo-Saxon-Celts and their DLC agenda.
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Feb 1, 2013 17:16
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Well this sucks balls, the decision is understandable but I would have liked to see some more interesting faction.
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Feb 1, 2013 17:26
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