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mcable posted:It's like the Sheriam viewing. Min's viewing seems to indicate that Sheriam has some kind of glory or importance in her future but it just turns out to be a glimpse at her execution. Sure Brandon probably wrote that scene but based on the way the imagery of the scene fit the viewing I would think that RJ left a detailed note on how that was supposed to play out. What viewing is this? Only one I vaguely remember is Min saying Sherim was going to get her rear end kicked and be bloody and bruised. Nothing about glory or importance.
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Jan 30, 2013 15:10
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Spermy Smurf posted:What viewing is this? Only one I vaguely remember is Min saying Sherim was going to get her rear end kicked and be bloody and bruised. Nothing about glory or importance. Fires of Heaven, Chapter 26: quote:"Rays of silver and blue flashed about her fiery hair, and a soft golden light; Min could not say what it meant."
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Jan 30, 2013 15:27
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Hrm, maybe Sheriam honestly repented at the end there and turned to the Light, and that's the indicator.
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Jan 30, 2013 15:52
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Hrm, maybe Sheriam honestly repented at the end there and turned to the Light, and that's the indicator. Only that she felt relieved it was over, I believe.
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Jan 30, 2013 16:23
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Hrm, maybe Sheriam honestly repented at the end there and turned to the Light, and that's the indicator. I took it that way as well, given how she had been known to act previously. Odds are, many of the Black Ajah, along with Darkfriends, were in it mainly for the power and influence, along with the opportunities to get their hands dirty and for Aes Sedai, relief from the Three Oath's restrictions. Truly evil to the core(or even those in it for the kinks) is a rarity compared to more self serving motives.
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Jan 30, 2013 20:40
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Someone had a passing line near the end of MoL about "Ah, now it was clear why there were so many Black Ajah in the tower", but I didn't really get 'why'. Wasn't the claim like there were three hundred BA or so, which is like a good quarter of the TOTAL population of the Tower? I've never really got why so many people would become Darkfriends anyway. I mean sure, some sociopaths and crazy lust for power types would, but it doesn't seem real plausible for most. I mean, the whole cosmology of the WoT says that the Dark One has tried and failed to break free thousands or millions or numberless/infinite times, but has failed every single time (otherwise the Wheel would be broken). How many people would really take the gamble that -this- time he'd make it? Plus, he's so obviously, monstrously SUPER SATAN EXTREME EDITION BUT ACTUALLY REAL, I just don't buy it. Maybe I'm underestimating human greed and stupidity, but there seem to be a LOT of secret Darkfriends in WoT. I'd think it was confirmation bias (the tiny percent looks bigger because we naturally run into more), but the percentage of Black Ajah in the Tower is kinda high...
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Jan 30, 2013 21:12
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Most people probably don't know that the Dark One has failed to break the pattern for eternity or whatever.
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Jan 30, 2013 21:25
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Why they sign up is easy enough, Darkfriends, from those casually swearing the oaths in teen rebellion, to power hungry nobility, represents a secret society you can tap to advance your own cause, as long as you do the jobs. The ruling council is non-existent for the most part, since the Forsaken and Dark One were sealed away for much of their active period. The network has resources, information from other Darkfriends, preferred dealings, contacts with people normally way above/below your social rank. Why not sign up, all it takes is the willingness to kill someone to advance yourself, and the Last Battle is bound to be in the distant future, with the only Forsaken showing up every other century or so. Unfortunately for them, the Last Battle goes from the opening moves to the closing act in less than three years, the commanders all show up and start throwing their weight around, and the oaths are not easily escaped when the force you swore to is breaking free. As for Black Ajah, it's simple. Darkfriend women who can channel would always seek out the Tower, knowing the Black Ajah exists, and the influence it would bring them. Other women are more likely to keep their powers quiet, becoming Wise Women and Wisdoms, seeking no personal gain. The Shadow promises eternal life if they win, which also makes becoming Aes Sedai if possible one of the ways to achieve at least, a long life. So with the Tower's lack of recruitment efforts, it's inevitable that a large portion who show up are interested primarily in power and influence, and a big chunk of THAT wouldn't mind crossing the last lines and joining the Black. Worse, the Whitecloaks likely made it more plausible that a channeler would join the Black Ajah, if you are seen and treated as evil for the Power, those with good intentions likely would suppress and ignore their powers for fear of being tainted.
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Jan 30, 2013 21:34
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veekie posted:with the only Forsaken showing up every other century or so Various multiples of 40 years, with the only confirmed appearances every thousand years. Though he apparently was more or less free enough to punish the Black Ajah and name Alviarin the head of it as early as right after Rand's birth. I like the TGH prologue sequence when he slips up and says that this turning, or the next, the Dark One will win, and all the DFs at the social are like, wait, what? VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Jan 30, 2013 |
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Jan 30, 2013 22:36
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Fintilgin posted:I've never really got why so many people would become Darkfriends anyway. I mean sure, some sociopaths and crazy lust for power types would, but it doesn't seem real plausible for most. I mean, the whole cosmology of the WoT says that the Dark One has tried and failed to break free thousands or millions or numberless/infinite times, but has failed every single time (otherwise the Wheel would be broken). How many people would really take the gamble that -this- time he'd make it? Plus, he's so obviously, monstrously SUPER SATAN EXTREME EDITION BUT ACTUALLY REAL, I just don't buy it. Maybe I'm underestimating human greed and stupidity, but there seem to be a LOT of secret Darkfriends in WoT. Simply put, it's because most of them don't ever expect to be called on to fulfill their oaths to the Dark One. When the DO is bound being a Darkfriend is like being a Freemason - you get a bunch of good social contacts and a chance to make bank, and all you have to do is prove your loyalty and keep a secret. They're not gambling that this time the DO will win at massive odds against, they're gambling that he won't show up at all at massive odds in their favour.
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Jan 31, 2013 00:25
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I've been meaning to ask, but is there any actual organized religion in Randland? I mean, everyone seems to know about the Dark One, the Wheel, the Creator, but it all seems to be from songs or whispered stories. People swear by the Light, or their hope of salvation and rebirth, but beyond that there doesn't seem to be much going on, religiously speaking.
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Jan 31, 2013 02:54
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Gonna go with no, or you'd have heard about it, guaranteed. At least a mention of a temple or priest or somthing, anyways.
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Jan 31, 2013 03:27
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Yeah, we've explored way too much of this world to have simply not heard of an organized religion. I'm gonna guess they don't have one either. Kinda interesting that Jordan built such a massive world and left an organized religion out of it though! (I say 'organized' because, even though everyone talks about the Creator and Dark One, there are no churches or priests or prayers).
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Jan 31, 2013 03:36
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The Aes Sedai are the priests. They're basically nuns. There are no male priests for obvious reasons. They don't appear to be religious figures because there's no real need for the trappings of religion. It kind of undercuts sermons about invisible things you have to take on faith when there are people who can literally cast fireball, even if you may never meet one. The Wisdom would be a religious figure, too, but Randland's culture makes religion kind of superfluous.
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Jan 31, 2013 03:53
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rafikki posted:I've been meaning to ask, but is there any actual organized religion in Randland? I mean, everyone seems to know about the Dark One, the Wheel, the Creator, but it all seems to be from songs or whispered stories. People swear by the Light, or their hope of salvation and rebirth, but beyond that there doesn't seem to be much going on, religiously speaking. Yeah the idea seems to be that in a society with actual flat out magic, creator, etc., and where the devil is a matter of clear historical record, there's less need for organized religion. There's still groups like the Aes Sedai and Whitecloaks, and in Seanchan the Empress seems to fill the same sort of role. But it's not so much about worship and faith and so forth because, poo poo, it's all real, don't need faith.
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Jan 31, 2013 04:46
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Robert Jordan always said that there is no need for an organised religion when in the WoT universe the creator, dark one, etc are obviously real, and have tangible manifestations like the one power, and the breaking. Organised religion only exists in the real world because without the trappings of religion, you wouldn't have anything left - the organisations exist only to perpetuate the fantasy and maintain their own power, since religion has no basis in reality.
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Jan 31, 2013 05:39
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mcable posted:You know that bit with the Alivia reveal in the epilogue is basically word for word what RJ wrote. According to Brandon everything in the epilogue except for Loial and Perrin's scenes are directly from RJ. So if you think it's tacked on, that is how RJ intended it to be. Before I go any further let me say that taken as a whole, I liked the book. It is solid, completes the story well and leaves a satisfactory taste in ones mouth. And here is where we get into the fundamental problem with the whole situation. You have one writer, Sanderson, who really respected Jordan's work. And you have another writer, Jordan, who left really good notes and some completed sections behind before he passed away. The trouble is, no matter how good Sanderson is, he had to write the final trilogy with certain limitations and a set of prose he couldn't edit too much without butchering Jordan's legacy. No matter how comprehensive those notes are, they couldn't have foreseen everything that Sanderson had to write in order to complete the series or Jordan might as well have finished the series himself. In order to write the book Jordan wanted, he was going to have to make writing choices that Sanderson would not normally have made, or logical connections that were different than Jordan would have. Given this, without having complete control over the series, it's hard to make everything flow together properly. Lets take the Alivia helps Rand die prophecy. This was supposed to be a red herring, or a clue that fans would ponder over, then turn out to mean very little -fine. However, in the context of the final outcome, there are just some things that didn't fit together as well as they should have and this is one of them. Perhaps I'm being unfair and had Jordan lived to complete the series, they would have been just as messy - after all, plenty of writers have had messy endings to their own works. Also, perhaps I'm reading too much into having two writers with their hands in the same book, but I really don't think so. At times, it really does feel like different voices are telling the story. This is unavoidable, but does distract from the experience. I just think that the book we got feels somewhat like it was designed by committee. Not bad, but not a masterpiece of fantasy. It's just not as good as we would have had had Jordan lived or Sanderson been given full control over finishing the series, using Jordan's notes as mere suggestions, neither of which could have happened. Still, it's better than having no book at all and what we got was satisfying in its own right. It's just a little sad that the ending one of the great modern epic fantasies of our time winds up being more of a negotiated victory than a unquestionable triumph.
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Jan 31, 2013 07:02
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When I finished this, I was definitely left wanting. It's very similar to when the Eragon Inheritance book series ended - but I will say this, WOT's had better closure than that one. I can understand some threads being left to the imagination, but come on... there are entire threads - HUGE THREADS that are just left dangling. The Seachan anyone? Come on - they still have thousands of damane that they have collared and will they release them? Will their society change? One thing I was sure that was going to happen was that Elayne in Camelynn (who had all those capture damane and sul'dam that Rand had given over to her when he capture them when he had marched his small army of Ashaman towards Ebou Dar) would go through with her very ingenious plan. We were shown that she did have this plan underway, she was teaching Seachan damane and sul'dam to weave and know saidar. THEN and only then, she would send them back to the Seachan to tell everyone the truth and make the Seachan people think and then create massive change due to this knowledge that any sul'dam can learn to use Saidar. Revolutionary stuff! To continue with the Seachan - Artur Hawking's conversation with Tuon at the end. Really? We couldn't have had a paragraph with us listening in at the end of that? It's KINDA important, the head of the Seachan meeting the progenitor of their entire civilization and way of life. I think some of those words might have really messed with Tuon's view on the course that she had in mind for the future of her society. And dont even get me started on Matt... Lastly, when Rand met with Tuon in Ebou Dar with Matt in the courtyard - he did sing the song of growing and made all the plants bloom and blossom. What I cant figure out is this - whether this was some kind of Dragon Reborn power or just a song that he remembered from his past life that he now knows and just sings it. If its the latter, then he COULD teach this song to others, right? Say, the Tinkers? I know that Sanderson has said that this song Rand sings is NOT the song that the Tinkers have been looking for. But this song is the song of Growing that supposedly only Ogiers knew, right? If this is NOT some kind of special Dragon Reborn power, then whats stopping other regular humans from learning it and making everything grow like crazy?? I really just wanted another 500 pages out of this last book... but alas, this is all we are getting out of the Wheel of Time. /sigh
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Jan 31, 2013 09:15
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On the Seanchan: The revelation that Suldam can learn to channel fundamentally won't change things in a dramatic sense. The empire operates on Damane as a commodity and service, which they contribute to in many aspects, amongst which is their use in mining, entertainment, and the military. As Tuon has demonstrated, it just means Suldam can choose not to be 'tainted' by the Power, to remain a person rather than a product. And empire-wide changes will not happen in time for the Last Battle, it's very much a thing of the epilogue. The deal they have at present is as good as it gets. Current Collared will remain so, those who wish to be freed can be(though the process leaves them unlikely to ever be freed), and they won't collar any from outside their lands. More would encroach on sovereignty. On the Song: The human Song of Growing was a Talent that the Age of Legends Aiel possessed, which coupled to the right song, would duplicate some aspects of an Ogier Treesinger. I imagine most Aiel should be able to learn it, since their bloodlines have been consistent through the years through isolation, but only a small fraction of the Tinkers would have the ability anymore through dilution.
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Jan 31, 2013 10:19
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I think you hit on something possibly awesome about the song of growing. It's very possible that many, many Aiel are able to learn it. The only reason they haven't yet is because they only sing during fighting or for funeral rights. It also doesn't help that they live in a place where there's not much in terms of fauna to react to the song. I also love during the seen where Rand confronts Tuon, Matt points out that he's actually humming a very mundane tune, but he's putting it on like some kind of miraculous psalm.
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Jan 31, 2013 12:38
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Jordan planned all along for the Seanchan plotlines to be left hanging, and I think it works just fine. Trying to tie them all up in this book or extend them into another book would be a mess. They were supposed to be dealt with in an entirely new series. Seems silly to me to complain about it now...it's one problems that comes up when the author loving dies, you know? Trying to sort out the whole Seanchan, Matt & Tuon problem is just too big a scope for these books and was obviously setup that way for the entire series. I don't have a single regret about how the WoT ended in that regard. Anything else would have been terrible and half assed
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Jan 31, 2013 15:12
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Levitate posted:Jordan planned all along for the Seanchan plotlines to be left hanging, and I think it works just fine. Trying to tie them all up in this book or extend them into another book would be a mess. They were supposed to be dealt with in an entirely new series. Seems silly to me to complain about it now...it's one problems that comes up when the author loving dies, you know? I also kind of think Tuon's chat with Hawkwing was supposed to be similar to Rand's talk with the Finn - we would have gotten bits and pieces of it as we read their story, with the ULTIMATE REVEAL or whatever coming towards to end of the book/series.
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Jan 31, 2013 15:19
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The Seanchan don't need a resolution. We've seen tentative steps toward multiple ways of resolving the Seanchan, some good some bad (they take over the entire world pretty much in Aviendha's vision, but that's not a fixed future) and some first steps and changes in their attitudes, that's good enough for me. A practice and a way of life that has come into place over the course of 1000 years (just as channelling men have been a danger to society for 3000, for example) isn't going to fall and collapse just to give us a neatly-wrapped epilogue. We don't get an overly tidy ending to the series just as we didn't get a tidy beginning to the series. There is no beginning or end to the turnings of the Wheel of Time.
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Jan 31, 2013 16:01
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rafikki posted:I've been meaning to ask, but is there any actual organized religion in Randland? I mean, everyone seems to know about the Dark One, the Wheel, the Creator, but it all seems to be from songs or whispered stories. People swear by the Light, or their hope of salvation and rebirth, but beyond that there doesn't seem to be much going on, religiously speaking. The Whitecloaks, the Way of the Leaf and the Water Way are the closest candidates. MAYBE Ji'e'toh, but that's something more culturally ingrained than religious though the distinction gets rather blurry.
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Jan 31, 2013 16:58
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Nah, we knew the Seanchan arc wouldn't get finished due to the planned outrigger novels. What bugs me more are plot threads that should been handled better / finished within this book, more emotional responses at certain deaths that now feel very abrupt/first draftish. Still, using and ending the book with Jordan's ending put a certain cramping on being able to do just that. Doesn't feel like Jordan had really finished his own ending yet either. I read that Jordan only wrote some 200ish pages (many in first draft/notes format) for these whole 3 books, some notes even being contradictionary, so Sanderson probably had more leeway than many might think. Looks like 95% of the Black Tower arc was his for example.
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Jan 31, 2013 18:28
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Pimpmust posted:What bugs me more are plot threads that should been handled better / finished within this book, more emotional responses at certain deaths that now feel very abrupt/first draftish. And the fact that about 80% of this novel is amazingly forgettable. I don't really care what Jordan had on the page. There's no reason Sanderson couldn't have rewritten it to be smoother, and in his shoes, I would have not begun the project without the ability to say look, we'll talk about this, and I am not going to massively *change* anything, but stitching what we have together to be satisfying is going to require some alteration and editing here and there. Honestly, I just don't think Sanderson's that good of an author, but I've only read the first Stormlight. From his WoT work and that, he writes novels with 2-3 Really Good Scenes in his head and everything in between is just workmanlike writing without a whole lot of anything going for it. I await my savaging.
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Jan 31, 2013 23:02
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I read that the deaths were supposed to be very suddon and abrupt, because that is what happens in battles, to give the readers a sense of that.
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Jan 31, 2013 23:32
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I am stunned at how boring this book was. I can remember so many highlights of previous books, moments when my heart was pounding with excitement as I read and I felt like jumping up and shouting. The Eye of the World, the battle over Falme, the cleansing of saidin, Dumai's Wells... all extraordinarily gripping scenes. You would expect that this last book, literally about the Apocalypse, should at least measure up to those scenes. Nope. What was the climax of this book? Was it Perrin and that forgettable other guy going back and forth... and back and forth... and back and forth... and back and forth over and over again? Not really, maybe if they had only fought a hundred times instead of a thousand I wouldn't have been so bored I wanted to throw the book out the window when he finally killed him. Was it Demandred showing up out of nowhere with a Deus-ex-Tensiona? Could have been, if he hadn't turned out to be a WoW raid boss who sat still and waited for an approriately high-level tanked-out npc to take him out. Was it the "awesome" battle sequences? Eh, maybe some of you found endless descriptions of Trollocs fascinating, but I could barely remember who half of the insignificant characters getting killed off were and didn't care about the ones I did remember. Was it Egwene's suicide? I was so bored by this part I can't remember anything about it except being vaguely pleased something finally didn't go her way. Was it anything to do with Mat? No, because its been made clear again and again that he's a better general than all the rest of the characters combined. There was a subplot about a spy or something? I can't remember. Was it Rand's confrontation with the Dark One? Oh man, hackneyed freshman philosophy is so exciting! And what a tense battle of wills - "The Dark One attacked him, and then Rand screamed". How riveting. It was not riveting. Yes, Sanderson was working under the weight of Jordan's legacy, and yes, maybe this is the best that could have been expected, but I just didn't expect it to be so lifeless. Maybe the hype in the Sanderson thread got me to overestimate the "Sanderson Avalanche" - more like Gentle Rockslide Down A Shallow Hill. Anyway, I am glad the series was finished, and to Mr. Sanderson's credit I did really enjoy all of the other books he contributed.
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Jan 31, 2013 23:44
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AlternateAccount posted:
Its a fair criticism. Sanderson is improving, but yeah, he does seem to lurch from crescendo to crescendo at times. Probably due to his writing habits--he has a basic framework, some goals in mind, and then lets it organically spew out in marathon typing sessions. Great volume, but some stuff just doesn't pop. He's good--I like his stuff, overall--but he does have his shortcomings (lets not even go into 'witty' banter and reused archetypes). Fortunately, he's a self-aware author who can take criticism, and appears to be making efforts to overcome his issues. It's worth the price of admission, and he could get better in the future. Plus, you could do far worse for someone to "ghost" write the series end. "A Memory of Light, by Robert Jordan and Kevin J. Anderson"
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Feb 1, 2013 00:22
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EkardNT posted:I am stunned at how boring this book was. I can remember so many highlights of previous books, moments when my heart was pounding with excitement as I read and I felt like jumping up and shouting. The Eye of the World, the battle over Falme, the cleansing of saidin, Dumai's Wells... all extraordinarily gripping scenes. You would expect that this last book, literally about the Apocalypse, should at least measure up to those scenes. Nope. What was the climax of this book? I actually don't blame Sanderson for it. I attribute a lot of it to the burden of needing to include a bunch of disconnected, relatively mediocre, and unedited Jordan writing directly into the novel, coupled with what'shername insisting on maintaining a certain 'vision' of things. I completely agree with the sense of total anticlimax to the novel (and virtually all those criticisms, which I've echoed pretty much from the moment I finished), I just feel like the previous two Sanderson books had plenty of meaty and enjoyable material so I'm hesitant to blame him for what I disliked here. I do think what happened was that the central 'confrontation' of the book, namely Rand vs. the Dark One, was set in stone as something separate from any other goings-on. Which meant Rand couldn't do anything else in the book, leading to the time compression/disconnect of the storylines. With the overriding necessity of trying off as many other threads as possible we got the crazy Last Battle half of the book which killed a bunch of people and had various callbacks. The trouble is that that battle didn't actually have any significance to the story - if the DO loses, who cares about the Trollocs? They can't travel anyway, so teleport the armies away, deal with them at leisure. If the DO wins, well, obviously the world is done. But they can't just sideline everyone and have Rand go in alone without it being Cliche, and many readers wouldn't be satisfied without some sort of big set piece. I just wish it had had more in-world justification for why it even mattered. Hell, here's a thought - Demandred goes over and takes over the physical male Choeden Kal and starts balefiring the crap out of stuff (except it's toast, but he could just as easily do the same with his Sa Angreal). Instead we get surgical laser beam balefirings of dudes, for no real purpose. It's also particularly irksome to me, at least, that after all of Moridin's buildup as the only really competent antagonist, in this one he doesn't present even the slightest threat. That's an overarching issue for me, though - Demandred was the last hope for a non-dumb Forsaken, and he was just as crazy and ineffective as the others. Yes, there's a hackneyed in-universe justification for why they're dumb, but I don't find it very compelling. Velius fucked around with this message at 13:03 on Feb 1, 2013 |
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Feb 1, 2013 04:57
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EkardNT posted:Was it Egwene's suicide? I was so bored by this part I can't remember anything about it except being vaguely pleased something finally didn't go her way. Dude. I get that you didn't like the book, that came through, but you could at least not be a douche about it and use spoiler tags like literally every other person in this thread managed to do.
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Feb 1, 2013 07:33
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I must admit, the biggest thing that took me out of the book were the Rand vs. The Dark One parts--because I couldn't stop giggling, picturing Discworld's Death delivering the lines. And then it got sillier, when Rand's text suddenly became all caps too to represent...I guess...his newfound resolution or willpower or epiphany or godhood or something? So then it was Death from Discworld saying vaguely frightening/funny things in front of a mirror. I wish I had the book in front of me, because literally every line I was facepalming.
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Feb 1, 2013 09:00
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OAquinas posted:It's worth the price of admission, and he could get better in the future. Plus, you could do far worse for someone to "ghost" write the series end. Yes it could have been a lot worse. Sanderson is one of the better writers out there.
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Feb 1, 2013 09:27
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Tahirovic posted:Yes it could have been a lot worse. Sanderson is one of the better writers out there. If Goodkind finished the series, Rand would've Gone Galt way before the last battle, and eventually defeated the dark one by sculpting a statue of himself. Brandon has some rough edges, but he really has gotten better over the years, in my opinion. That said, I'm glad that this series is finally over and I will be eagerly awaiting Stormlight 2.
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Feb 1, 2013 09:52
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Velius posted:if the DO loses, who cares about the Trollocs? They can't travel anyway, so teleport the armies away, deal with them at leisure. I dont' think we actually got a resolution from that in terms of what, if anything, happened to dark spawn when the DO is defeated. Since they were created by a man, I doubt they would just disappear. Same for fades. There was still a pretty important reason to have that big battle because even if the DO was defeated they could have still been overrun and all killed by the army they were facing. Armies that had channelers fighting for them that could follow you if you tried to jump away, etc etc. The battle part was still important IMO
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Feb 1, 2013 11:47
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Levitate posted:I dont' think we actually got a resolution from that in terms of what, if anything, happened to dark spawn when the DO is defeated. I'm not saying this from the context of some LoTR esque 'all evil things in the world instantly die' resolution, I just mean who cares about the Trollocs? So the Sharans can Travel? Great, lure them away from the bulk of their army and kill them when they're subsequently outnumbered. The field had no strategic significance at all, nor did the battle. Instead we have silliness like Demandred hanging out and begging to fight Rand when Rand's been sitting in a cave for days doing nothing. Apparently neither the DO nor Moridin feel like having anyone else butt in save a couple token Black Ajah. Or how the Dark One himself, who apparently has done this innumerable times, has no actual plan to win. If I'd read more Pratchett the fantasy clichés would probably remind me of it, but the first thing that leaps to my mind is actually Grunts!, a fairly amusing parody. Everyone has to gather up for the climactic Last Battle, because it's expected, even if the evil side goes in knowing they're doomed. I also can't help but compare with things like the Thomas Covenant series, which whatever their flaws managed to have a fairly compellingly evil and nigh omniscient antagonist. I wish Donaldson had had a more lasting impact on the genre, honestly. These days gritty, morally gray stories dominate fantasy, which doesn't bother me, but I do think it's possible to do the whole Evil One thing without it being silly or dumb. I wish that had been more the case here. Velius fucked around with this message at 13:30 on Feb 1, 2013 |
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Feb 1, 2013 13:23
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Velius posted:I'm not saying this from the context of some LoTR esque 'all evil things in the world instantly die' resolution, I just mean who cares about the Trollocs? So the Sharans can Travel? Great, lure them away from the bulk of their army and kill them when they're subsequently outnumbered. The field had no strategic significance at all, nor did the battle. The battle didn't have an impact on the most important outcome (Rand and the DO's fight) but it was supposed to have implications for the regular people of the world. Whether or not the writing established that is one thing but I"m pretty sure Jordan explicitly stated that was his intention quote:Instead we have silliness like Demandred hanging out and begging to fight Rand when Rand's been sitting in a cave for days doing nothing. Apparently neither the DO nor Moridin feel like having anyone else butt in save a couple token Black Ajah. Or how the Dark One himself, who apparently has done this innumerable times, has no actual plan to win. Demandred's role was kind of silly but on the other hand the entire series built him up as a guy obsessed with Lews Therin and being better than him, and there are hints that he's gone rather crazy beyond just that obsession alone. Demandred was always presented as having one true motivator and that was to be better than Rand/Lews Therin and defeat him. That's it, he literally cared about nothing else. As for why he thought Rand was at the battle, and why there wasn't many other people around to defend Shaol Ghul, that was supposedly part of the plan to open several fronts all over the place and Rand showed himself at several of those locations to draw off the majority of the Dark One's forces.. That combined with the dream spike kept too much from happening around Shaol Ghul. Now again, if you consider that some weak plotting, that's fine, but it's the logic behind it, however thin it may be quote:If I'd read more Pratchett the fantasy clichés would probably remind me of it, but the first thing that leaps to my mind is actually Grunts!, a fairly amusing parody. Everyone has to gather up for the climactic Last Battle, because it's expected, even if the evil side goes in knowing they're doomed. Really, and this relates to your other point as well, the Dark One's plan #1 was to get Rand to break and destroy everything himself. The main climax of the DO's plans happened at the end of The Gathering Storm, and it failed. The Trollocs and armies and all of that are more or less the backup plan, since if they can tie up all of the forces of Light and buy enough time then poo poo will fall apart anyways. The last confrontation was more Rand's counter-attack than the culmination of the DO's plans quote:I also can't help but compare with things like the Thomas Covenant series, which whatever their flaws managed to have a fairly compellingly evil and nigh omniscient antagonist. Lord Foul (what a lovely name, I always felt like Donaldson wrote a really immature novel as his first one (in terms of writing ability, plotting, etc) and then was stuck with some stupid poo poo for the rest of the series) was nearly the same exact thing as the WoT's DO. Marginally more competent perhaps, but motivations and even what he needed people to do in order to "win" is nearly exactly the same. I wouldn't hold up the Thomas Covenant series as any kind of real interesting departure from traditional fantasy cliche's
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Feb 1, 2013 14:00
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Velius posted:I'm not saying this from the context of some LoTR esque 'all evil things in the world instantly die' resolution, I just mean who cares about the Trollocs? So the Sharans can Travel? Great, lure them away from the bulk of their army and kill them when they're subsequently outnumbered. The field had no strategic significance at all, nor did the battle. Demandred's role(as the Dark One set him) was to break humanity's spirit. As shown in the alternate futures, even if Rand lost the conflict at the Bore, as long as even ONE person still held hope, the Dark One could not achieve total victory. And if Rand had won, but Demandred survived then he could have emerged to find the world dead and overrun by Trollocs. The possible outcomes are thus: Total Victory for the Light - Rand defeats the Dark One in the battle of wills, and seals him away. What we have here. Total Victory for the Shadow - Rand is defeated at the Bore, and the armies of the Light destroyed. The Dark One truly breaks free and destroys the Pattern. Rand defeated, Armies of the Light succeed - Another Breaking results, as everything continues to fail, but humanity survives, barely. Reality is twisted so that the baseline of humanity is Dark rather than Light, but people exist, and eventually, things may change for the better. Theoretically the best possible end for the Forsaken, except for Moridin, since he won't get the end of the world he wanted. Rand wins, Armies of the Light defeated - You get total desolation, and likely, a Garden of Eden end. Trollocs overrun the world, killing and eating everything, before dying out. Life continues, eventually. quote:Instead we have silliness like Demandred hanging out and begging to fight Rand when Rand's been sitting in a cave for days doing nothing. Apparently neither the DO nor Moridin feel like having anyone else butt in save a couple token Black Ajah. Or how the Dark One himself, who apparently has done this innumerable times, has no actual plan to win. Heck, orders from Moridin was to leave Rand to him, Demandred was clearly disobeying orders in his expectations for single combat. And really, if the conflict had gone as Rand planned(if Moiraine has not shown up and showed him the flaws of his plan), Rand WOULD have wound up leading the coalition forces himself, and thus fought Demandred before challenging the Bore. He'd have of course, been too mentally exhausted to defeat the Dark One if he managed to defeat Demandred. As a nice bonus, while re-reading Towers of Midnight: Demandred had pulled the trick he did with the Sharans before. "During the Age of Legends. Demandred, when he came for me after founding the Eighty and One...". Eighty-one is the maximum size of a circle of Linked Channelers, and Demandred had apparently, lost that time. So he did it again, this time with a Sa'angreal. Of course, this is known to be a horribly inefficient use of channelers in warfare, as stated before. Large Circles are best at achieving very powerful, focused effects, but in combat, they're only good in a duel against an opponent powerful enough to swat opposition aside. If Rand HAS shown up like he did at Maradon, the circle of 81 might have been the best way for Demandred to defeat him. Ultimately, what happened was the Shadow planned for a conflict against Lews Therin. Unfortunately, Rand al'Thor showed up instead.
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Feb 1, 2013 14:09
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Levitate posted:
The name is silly, certainly. But as for motivation and resolution being similar, that's sort of my point - I consider Donaldson to have succeeded in creating an Evil antagonist without all the cheesy clichés that we have to deal with courtesy of Tolkien, where the Dark One was not compelling or interesting to me. It isn't just a question of competence (although Jordan explicitly describes most of the forsaken as idiots who get routinely outwitted by teenagers), but rather that there was effectively no personality or motivation for being evil, either. The DO wants to break out and eliminate hope or whatever, because he wants to do it. The forsaken are caricatures. It's cartoon evil. I expect goatees on virtually everyone. What I found compelling in Donaldson's work, both the Covenant series and other material, is that the antagonists are actual monsters, while the protagonists aren't just plucky heroes. I don't want to sound like I'm ranting about this, and overall I do enjoy the series. I just found the resolution of things to be not what I expected or wanted.
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Feb 1, 2013 15:31
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| # ? Jun 10, 2024 15:33 |
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A full circle is 72, not 81
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Feb 1, 2013 15:43
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