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Momomo posted:I don't really get why people are so excited that the classes are more confined in the Zodiac edition. There is a much, much bigger reason to play that: The ability to make the game run twice as fast. People like different things. Sometimes they like arbitary handicaps or ways that force you to think about which characters to be used in different situations. It's one reason why I preferred IX over VII. Too much choice can throw people off. When I first played Skyrim it was almost paralyzing because there was so much you could do - do main quests. Do lots of side quests. Gathering. Exploring. When it's too open, people that can't make snap decisions (that faction sounds better, or I prefer axes to maces because they swing faster) get frustrated. There are lots of other reasons to me, but that's just some of them.
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Feb 2, 2013 09:13
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ApplesandOranges posted:Too much choice can throw people off. When I first played Skyrim it was almost paralyzing because there was so much you could do - do main quests. Do lots of side quests. Gathering. Exploring. When it's too open, people that can't make snap decisions (that faction sounds better, or I prefer axes to maces because they swing faster) get frustrated. I've actually heard this a few times from my friends. I never understood it myself. I tell them that there is no wrong way to go and just try everything, but its like trying to get a homeless guy to invest $50,000. They just don't think that way. It's....odd.
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Feb 2, 2013 10:11
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What it boils down to for me is that I don't like mechanics that either make power or abilities tradeable commodities, like Materia or Junctions, or where the endgame is that every character is capable of doing everything at once just as well as everyone else at all times, barring minor variations in effectiveness owing to base stats and who gets to hold the best weapon, like the License Board and, to a lesser extent, Magicite (though VI is my personal favorite despite that). People say you can specialize with the License Board, and that is true if you willingly impose constraints on how you develop the board, but my experience with it was that all you really were encouraged to branch for were the Esper nodes and whatever node held the latest good weapon you picked up. Beyond that, there was no reason not to give everyone access to staple White and Black Magic spells that everyone can make good use of at any time and it didn't take all that many LP before everyone started dipping in things that were previously restricted to one or two characters simply because the redundancy was not strictly necessary in the early game, like Protect and such. Everyone played and felt the same and no amount of willful constraining would let me forget that underneath it all, every character would and did perform the same. The dislike of "power comes from objects and not the character him/herself" thing I admit is a bizarre idiosyncrasy, but I don't like systems that either enable or encourage that Everyone Can Do Everything Well At Once, and no amount of justifying or deflecting will make that not true about 12. Maybe the way IZJS goes about it is too constraining in the other direction, I don't know, I haven't played it yet, but I know that I for sure feel that system resonates much more closely with me.
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Feb 2, 2013 15:25
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I don't like having so many options that I can't reliably decide which one is going to be fun enough to compel me to continue playing the game. The same applies to having a huge backlog of games and not being able to decide which one to play.
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Feb 2, 2013 16:41
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Dross posted:I don't like having so many options that I can't reliably decide which one is going to be fun enough to compel me to continue playing the game. Chooser's Dilemma is a very real and well researched thing.
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Feb 2, 2013 17:04
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Is the PSP version of III pretty much the DS port?
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Feb 2, 2013 17:05
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Yes, it's exactly the same except it runs at a higher resolution. I think they may have taken out the Moogle mail thing, that required you to send messages to other people with the game in order to unlock the Onion Knight class, but I'm not certain. if you can, play the NES version with a translation patch.
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Feb 2, 2013 18:00
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Yeah, the NES version is definitely better than the remake. It still has some issues like no save points in dungeons (but since you're more than likely playing on an emulator, you can use save states). But it doesn't have the dumb ineffectiveness period after you change classes (it just costs CP to change classes, you get CP after every fight, and leveling up a class decreases the CP cost), bosses aren't as deadly because they only get one turn each round, and regular enemies aren't as tough because more of them can be in a battle at once. Also it looks a lot better.
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Feb 2, 2013 18:12
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ApplesandOranges posted:People like different things. Sometimes they like arbitary handicaps or ways that force you to think about which characters to be used in different situations. It's one reason why I preferred IX over VII. Being able to respec without penalty is a wonderful, beautiful thing, and I wish more games gave me that option.
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Feb 2, 2013 18:42
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With people asking about FF3 lately, would there be any interest in doing a four job fiesta like what is done regularly with FF5? Because I would seriously entertain the idea of playing through the PSP or DS version with a Scholar and Evoker in my party, especially if it would convince more people to try the remake.
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Feb 2, 2013 19:07
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Armor-Piercing posted:With people asking about FF3 lately, would there be any interest in doing a four job fiesta like what is done regularly with FF5? Because I would seriously entertain the idea of playing through the PSP or DS version with a Scholar and Evoker in my party, especially if it would convince more people to try the remake. FF3 is far less forgiving and rolling any form of melee class for the first Crystal will just kill you on Giant Rat. Not to mention Salamander just wastes you unless you're... what, Black Mage or Red Mage? Also if you don't get Geomancer, Bard or Dragoon good luck busting through Garuda. I can't remember if Ranger attacks count as Wind element, but I'm not sure Barrage will help in taking him down any. Not to say it doesn't have potential, but there's so much that can go wrong.
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Feb 2, 2013 19:14
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Armor-Piercing posted:With people asking about FF3 lately, would there be any interest in doing a four job fiesta like what is done regularly with FF5? Because I would seriously entertain the idea of playing through the PSP or DS version with a Scholar and Evoker in my party, especially if it would convince more people to try the remake. From everything I've heard about III, it just sounds like it'd be a more frustrating/grind filled fiesta. V is really something special, showing that you can beat the game with almost any team.
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Feb 2, 2013 19:28
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Armor-Piercing posted:With people asking about FF3 lately, would there be any interest in doing a four job fiesta like what is done regularly with FF5? Because I would seriously entertain the idea of playing through the PSP or DS version with a Scholar and Evoker in my party, especially if it would convince more people to try the remake. Not only is the game structure a lot less forgiving, it's a lot longer too. My average playthrough of 5 takes between 20 and 30 hours. 3 DS takes maybe forty or fifty. Plus, like ApplesandOranges said, the game's a lot less kind when it comes to workarounds. Not only do the bits he mentioned exist, if you get insanely unlucky and don't get any good DPS jobs you basically can't beat the game. Dark Cloud's such a huge DPS race that if you get screwed you'd probably have to grind up to level 99 in the final dungeon, with no permasaves and the option of just losing all your progress if you get killed.
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Feb 2, 2013 19:29
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You'd be better off doing a random job roll run of FF1, with your 4 warriors picked via RNG. At least in that game you can't utterly screw yourself since at level 50 pretty much any character can solo chaos.
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Feb 2, 2013 19:56
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There are a couple places where you'd probably need to make an exception - I think there are parts where you can't progress without Toad or Mini, and one dungeon where only magic attacks will do any reasonable damage - but I think most of the game could be completed with most combinations of one class per crystal. You'd have to roll mostly healers to really have a horrible time with things. Is the NES version (especially with save states) easier enough that it would be doable? I'm not suggesting everyone play only the remake. I guess I should also have clarified that I don't mean running something of the same magnitude as the actual Four Job Fiesta, just something to do here if several people are going to be playing through FF3 anyway (in which case I don't think length is as much of an issue).
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Feb 2, 2013 21:03
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nene. posted:Play the motherfuckin Zodiac Job System. Right now!!!!!! I'm watching the LP instead, because I have large issues with XII's story and music, too.
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Feb 2, 2013 21:18
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Armor-Piercing posted:Is the NES version (especially with save states) easier enough that it would be doable?
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Feb 2, 2013 21:47
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Armor-Piercing posted:There are a couple places where you'd probably need to make an exception - I think there are parts where you can't progress without Toad or Mini, and one dungeon where only magic attacks will do any reasonable damage - but I think most of the game could be completed with most combinations of one class per crystal. You'd have to roll mostly healers to really have a horrible time with things. The issue with the NES version is that jobs are designed to be direct upgrades, so whoever has the first job class is screwed later on, especially if they're a mage. Also, the final crystal is gotten 80-85% into the game, and in the original you only get the Black/White Mage upgrades and Summoner classes. This also locks out Ninja/Sage, though you can include them with the last job set if you don't mind not having a fourth job until literally the final dungeon. At least the DS version lets early classes be viable, but the game's still much more difficult, certain classes like Black Mage will still have a lot of trouble being relevant due to how horribly Black Magic damage scales, and you still don't get your final class until you have four or five dungeons left in the game. Not to mention there's a ton of roadblocks, like Mini/Toad dungeons, Big Rat, Garuda, and all that crap that essentially requires a certain class be present. The game was designed for you to switch classes occasionally (which is why the DS penalties make no sense). It might be possible, but I think there's a chance where you have to do serious grinding to make certain combinations feasible in either version, plus have quite a few exceptions. Maybe one of these days I'll try a Same Class Challenge or whatever and see how feasible some of this stuff would be.
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Feb 2, 2013 21:51
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I've tried a Quad Dragoon w/ dual Blood Lances before. Cloud of Darkness killed me and I got too disheartened to re-do that dungeon again. But reasonably, I think a Dragoon or Bard challenge would be slightly possible. Bard would need some attack items for when enemies start getting low on health, but it's actually decent. Only really heavy attack bosses like Cerberus would be an issue (and CoD, of course). Geomancer would almost seem possible as well if you don't mind gambling on Shadowflares (read: Garuda).
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Feb 2, 2013 22:08
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I was planning to do a run with either Thief/Scholar/Evoker/Magus (or Sage) or with only jobs from the first crystal to see what I could do. Not a big fan of single-class stuff. I also didn't realize there was a Four Job Fiesta format where you didn't get one job per crystal. If you don't roll a class from the first crystal with that, are you just stuck with Freelancers?
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Feb 2, 2013 22:25
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Armor-Piercing posted:I also didn't realize there was a Four Job Fiesta format where you didn't get one job per crystal. If you don't roll a class from the first crystal with that, are you just stuck with Freelancers? I think you're talking about "hard mode," where every roll has the possibility of giving you a job from the current crystal or any previous crystal. So you WILL get a job at the Wind crystal, and the water crystal may give you a water crystal job or another Wind crystal job, and so on. It's arguably not any harder, since later jobs tend to get more and more gimmicky, while the earlier jobs tend to be pretty solid. On the other hand, you may end up with 3 thieves and a berserker.
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Feb 2, 2013 22:37
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Schwartzcough posted:It's arguably not any harder, since later jobs tend to get more and more gimmicky, while the earlier jobs tend to be pretty solid. On the other hand, you may end up with 3 thieves and a berserker.
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Feb 2, 2013 22:50
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Schwartzcough posted:On the other hand, you may end up with 3 thieves and a berserker. Or three berserkers and a knight. And still manage to finish it. That was ridiculously impressive.
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Feb 2, 2013 22:53
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Dragonatrix posted:Or three berserkers and a knight. Not to mention also killing Shinryu. I'm still in awe of that.
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Feb 3, 2013 00:26
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Speaking of 4JF, I just finished my first run ever with Thief/Time Mage/Geomancer/Dancer. Man, that was tough, and I couldn't keep everyone alive in the last fight. I forgot how  it was when one of your guys isn't alive for the ending. 
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Feb 3, 2013 00:44
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Krad posted:Speaking of 4JF, I just finished my first run ever with Thief/Time Mage/Geomancer/Dancer. Man, that was tough, and I couldn't keep everyone alive in the last fight. I forgot how Could be worse. I've done that exact setup before but with a Berserker instead of a Time Mage.  Equip Ribbon is amazing for the Neo-Exdeath fight, by the way.
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Feb 3, 2013 00:58
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I agree that Hard Mode isn't necessarily harder; I got Knight/White/Blue on my first run last year which are three excellent and fairly easy to use jobs, and !White makes getting some tricky Blue Magic easier. The trick to Hard Mode is that it's the only way to get an amazingly bad party because it's the only way to get duplicates, and once you know enough about FF5 to know basically how to use each job, almost none of them are worthless for endgame stuff other than Thief and Berserker. In addition to Thief, the Wind Crystal includes Red Mage and Monk, which level off worse than almost any other jobs in the game and are pretty useless in World 3 on their own outside of the context of a good party. By contrast, there are literally no bad Earth Crystal jobs, and you have a 50% chance of getting Samurai or Chemist which are amazing for actually clearing the game's non-trivial final boss. The other thing about Hard Mode is that duplicates, even duplicates of good jobs like Blue Mage, usually make you weaker because they reduce the pool of usable abilities you have and the chance you'll be able to use (for ex) any given good weapon. Baku fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Feb 3, 2013 |
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Feb 3, 2013 01:00
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I dunno, I didn't find Thief useless because it acted as a platform for abilities that I needed to happen quickly, like !Summon. (Of course, once a Samurai gets their Masamune, so does that, and I had both, but.)
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Feb 3, 2013 01:05
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Kyrosiris posted:I dunno, I didn't find Thief useless because it acted as a platform for abilities that I needed to happen quickly, like !Summon. Yeah, but it's dependant on other jobs to make it useful. Monk is the same way in that they make a good platform for other abilities (!White in my case last year) because they're a big walking slab of HP, but the only way to actually have a bad party in FF5 is having several dependant jobs like Thief and Monk in the same party with no Mages or anything providing good actives for them.
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Feb 3, 2013 01:07
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Krad posted:Speaking of 4JF, I just finished my first run ever with Thief/Time Mage/Geomancer/Dancer. Man, that was tough, and I couldn't keep everyone alive in the last fight. I forgot how Wait, does the ending actually kill off a character if they die during the final fight? poo poo, I've never tried that.
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Feb 3, 2013 01:13
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Zombies' Downfall posted:I agree that Hard Mode isn't necessarily harder; I got Knight/White/Blue on my first run last year which are three excellent and fairly easy to use jobs, and !White makes getting some tricky Blue Magic easier. I'll be honest, in that Thief/Berserker/Geomancer/Dancer run I just mentioned, I felt like the Berserker was pulling his weight better than the Geomancer was towards the end. !Gaia's pretty good in World 1 and World 2 to some degree, but it's not really all that great in the end game. The fact that it doesn't actually count as spell casting for Fork Tower and the fact that it doesn't pass along the Geomancer's Magic stat really hurt its utility. Omniscient's 30,000 MP takes about 6 hours to run through if you're not playing on an emulator, by the way. Conversely, I could give my Geomancer Equip Axe and slap the Rune Axe on them, and they'd do amazing single-target damage with it. And even without the ability to control where he was swinging, my Berserker was putting out some serious punishment all the way through. Oh, and the Red Mage is Water Crystal, not Wind. Wind is Knight, Thief, Monk, White Mage, Black Mage, and Blue Mage.
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Feb 3, 2013 01:13
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Durr yeah re: the Red Mage thing. And yeah, I agree Geomancer's got some issues. Berserker's auto-attack thing is why it's problematic, not because it does pitiful damage or something. Losing the ability to heal with items, focus on a specific target in multi-target fights, etc blows really bad and it's a problem compounded by having more than one of them (which is only possible on Hard). I'd put Geomancer in that camp with Red Mage and Monk for jobs that hold their own until World 3 and then kind of rely on you being able to hand them a good active from another job. !Gaia's an awesome secondary ability for classes like White Mage that suck rear end at fighting until then, I leaned on it a bunch in that Ancient Cave hack thing.
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Feb 3, 2013 01:19
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W.T. Fits posted:Equip Ribbon is amazing for the Neo-Exdeath fight, by the way. Yeah, uh... I didn't know you could mix classes/abilities and thought you were supposed to use each job you get for each character and never change them ever. You want a real hard mode? Try doing it like that.  ImpAtom posted:Wait, does the ending actually kill off a character if they die during the final fight? poo poo, I've never tried that. Yep! The epilogues are different obviously but everyone comes back at the tree scene so it's not completely depressing.
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Feb 3, 2013 01:25
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Krad posted:Yeah, uh... I didn't know you could mix classes/abilities and thought you were supposed to use each job you get for each character and never change them ever. You want a real hard mode? Try doing it like that. Holy crap, I'm going to need to see this. 
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Feb 3, 2013 01:26
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Krad posted:Yeah, uh... I didn't know you could mix classes/abilities and thought you were supposed to use each job you get for each character and never change them ever. You want a real hard mode? Try doing it like that. Impressive! I'll pass on trying that for myself, but I salute your dedication to getting it done that way. Really looking forward to this year's Fiesta. Think I'll sign up for Berserker Risk this time around if it's available.
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Feb 3, 2013 01:41
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W.T. Fits posted:I'll be honest, in that Thief/Berserker/Geomancer/Dancer run I just mentioned, I felt like the Berserker was pulling his weight better than the Geomancer was towards the end. !Gaia's pretty good in World 1 and World 2 to some degree, but it's not really all that great in the end game. The fact that it doesn't actually count as spell casting for Fork Tower and the fact that it doesn't pass along the Geomancer's Magic stat really hurt its utility. Omniscient's 30,000 MP takes about 6 hours to run through if you're not playing on an emulator, by the way. I guess the real question is: why were you doing Fork Tower with that group? For a lot of 4JF teams, there's really no point in getting more than 1 or 2 tablets, or doing Fork Tower. And I've had some teams with really lovely offense, where my most reliable source of damage was the Geomancer. Hell, during the final boss the only effect is Wind Slash, which does about 2,500 damage to each part of the boss- not bad. Thief is also nice due to all the innates- you can run faster, which is sometimes useful, and more importantly they prevent Back Attacks. Some back attacks are just brutal, and not having to worry about them can be a real benefit.
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Feb 3, 2013 01:56
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W.T. Fits posted:Impressive! I'll pass on trying that for myself, but I salute your dedication to getting it done that way. Thanks! I had to use everything at my disposal to go through some of the bosses. Assassin daggers, coral rings, elven capes... I don't think I could've made it without the Time Mage, haste/regen really saved me in most fights. It was a really fun way to replay this classic. 
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Feb 3, 2013 01:56
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Schwartzcough posted:I guess the real question is: why were you doing Fork Tower with that group? For a lot of 4JF teams, there's really no point in getting more than 1 or 2 tablets, or doing Fork Tower. Because you can. 
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Feb 3, 2013 01:59
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Schwartzcough posted:I guess the real question is: why were you doing Fork Tower with that group? For a lot of 4JF teams, there's really no point in getting more than 1 or 2 tablets, or doing Fork Tower. Titan's Axe? Also what Kryosiris said.
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Feb 3, 2013 02:41
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Schwartzcough posted:I guess the real question is: why were you doing Fork Tower with that group? For a lot of 4JF teams, there's really no point in getting more than 1 or 2 tablets, or doing Fork Tower. Well, honestly... Kyrosiris posted:Because you can. ... yeah, that. I tend to be rather completionist when it comes to doing Four Job Fiesta runs. I know I don't have to, but I still want to, just to see if I can. Dragonatrix posted:Titan's Axe? Oh yeah, that too. But mostly what Kyrosiris said; for the challenge of doing it.
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Feb 3, 2013 03:00
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