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Devor
Nov 30, 2004
Lurking more.

Andy Dufresne posted:

Devor, I've got a 77 Shaman (Xafty) who could eventually use a chain set if it's not too much trouble. I appreciate the offer, EQ goons have been crazy generous.

Added to the list

thewhitehand posted:

Hey Devor I could use a set of chain for zerkers, I'll be on Remicade or Mordekaiser. Thanks man

Added to the list - as an FYI the way that we're sending items is by using the Parcel system. So you just have to tell me the name of the character that you want it sent to. Doesn't matter who you're playing, because I don't have to track you down in person, you don't even have to be online. So I'll send it to Remicade if I don't hear otherwise.

VenimeuxHaine posted:

Are you referring to the tasks given out by Fenden Helter? Are there some that are better than others?

Navrant 78 sk

Don't sign your posts! It's poor form here, you'll get probated/banned.

Also, Navrant, you spelled your name wrong when you requested stuff previously. It's pretty important that you get that right. From your ill-advised signature I see that it's Navrant, and sent your stuff along.


Does anyone have a rogue on Firiona Vie that could make me 2-3 Spider's Bite XII (Level 70 req) that I can use for testcopying? It uses this stuff - trivial 364:

(1)Embossed Poison Vial
(1)Refined Grade AA Nigriventer Venom
(1)Thick Suspension Fluid
(1)Emulsifier

if there is someone, I can go farm a handful of the Nigriventer venom on FV.

Edit: Just realized that when gold lapsed I lost the ability to farm anything higher than the Tutorial. Guess it's time to start leveling Make Poison on Test!

Double Edit: Turns out that Bite of the Shissar can be bought from merchants. So nevermind to all the poison stuff!

Devor fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Feb 2, 2013

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Pilsner
Nov 23, 2002

RCarr posted:

Why do people keep trying to scare everyone off with this nonsense? Test was reset ONCE like 11 years ago. It's not going to get reset.
For proof, here's a screenshot a lvl 2 character I apparently made almost 12 years ago. It was still there when I began testing it up a few months ago:



Of course it's true that we never know what's going to happen in the future, but they almost shut down EQMac too at some point, out of the blue.

Tai posted:

Since we have a few high level monks, tell me about swarming without using whirlwind that some monks seem to do.

Mend is at 2 mins (cant level it more yet)
Leveling staffblock atm
Got all the riposte AA's etc.

I heard you just pop immpenetrable and some DPS abilities like Zan Fi and staffblock blocks a lot of damage while mobs die on ripostes. I know you cant do huge packs but good for 10 mobs at a time once stone stance is up.

Also im level 85 so whats a good level for this? CA/CS is maxed for my level at rank 33.

Also what disc's dont stack and whats a good combo of discs to use? Heard IF/speed is a good one.

Is calanins supposed to put phantom app line on cool down? Seems werid that
Swarming has never really given me much. I have only really used in two situations:

1) At lvl 80 in Paw with HoT gear, doing whirlwind swarming. Without WW I could maybe pull 5 mobs at a time to speed things up, through ripostes and damage shield.
2) At way higher levels (95+), mass slaughtering grey mobs to powerlevel my alts. For example, I can pull 20-30 mobs in Thalassius and grind them down, or 20 or those grey legion mobs in Direwind Cliffs.

Have you tried Thalassius perhaps? It's in the TBS expansion, off Katta Castrum. It's an optimal swarming zone for SKs (lots of mobs, fast respawns, corners everywhere), monks will just have to pull fewer mobs I guess.

Very close to the bottom of this page ("And here is our updated Discipline Timer List") you can see a list of which monk discs are in the same "line" and thus don't stack. My recommendation for Lesson burning is to pop your discs as early as possible so they (some of them at least) cool down before your lesson ends, and use stuff like Impenetrable as often as you can. Just burn through your entire arsenal to speed things up, and watch your endurance - in just one more lvl, 86, you'll get the Respite disc which solves all endurance problems.

Regarding disc usage, here's my guide to the different lines quoted in the post I linked, for solo grinding:

0: Always keep Master's Aura up.
1: Always prefer Impen to WW unless you're specifically swarming. Popping WW puts Impen on a 30+ minute cooldown. WW is amazing for dedicated WW swarming though, but has very limited use, mostly due to its long cooldown.
2: Innerflame line: Okay damage boost, use it to boost all your kicks.
3: Ashenhand line: Long duration, huge damage boost. The best for bursting giant Calanin / Stunning Kick hits.
4: Fearless is situationally good for when you get to named that fear while pulling later on. All the endurance discs become junk once you get Respite at lvl 86. The healing discs are a joke.
5: Heel of X: Mediocre, but use it for the heck of it.
6: Echo discs are amazing for pulling.
7: Delay Death line: Can save your butt. It gives you a huge, but unreliable, regen when you're very low on health. Watch your health like a hawk if you're low and using it, and keep your finger on the FD button.
8: I never use Phantom myself, always Echo. Always use a Synergy instead of X-Step Pattern, as Synergy runs on your Flying Kick skill, which you by the way should work on maxing the heck out through AAs.
9: Void Step line is very good, pretty much makes you invulnerable (100% dodge) while it lasts. Eye of the Storm is a new lvl 98 or 99 skill so don't worry about that for a while.
10: Speed focus: Very very good damage boost.
11: Punch/Jab is pretty much crap as it only lasts a small amount of hits. Use if it you care, I don't even have it on my bars. Void Body line is poop, don't be fooled my Alla's spell description saying it gives +50% chance to dodge - that means it increases some hidden dodge rating by 50%, but that doesn't put you anywhere near dodging 50% of attacks. Void Step on the other hand (line 9) increases this dodge rating by over 500%, making you virtually unhittable.
12: As soon as you get Respite at lvl 86, throw the others out the window.
13: Odds and ends in this category. Eye of Zoom is neat, although I never use it. Inner Rejuv is junk. Crane Stance owns, it performs two GIGANTIC kicks that you can do up to 500k damage with. I killed Cazic Thule in Plane of Fear in 3 seconds the other day with this.
14: Vig. Shuriken is your only innate pull tool until an AA called Distant Strike at lvl 95, so if you can bother, camp a summon shuriken item. Drunken Monkey Style is a small, but decent overall damage boost, but don't use it too much until you get Respite at lvl 86 and keep your endurance going.
15: A good little damage boost.
16: Use Cloud of Fists in cooldown, it adds an average of 600dps.

Ante Christ
May 8, 2007
Also can anyone send Smug Atheist (Level 80 Mage) some cash and a set of Abtruse Conjuredflame armor on Test?

blackmage
Sep 9, 2006

Ante Christ posted:

Also can anyone send Smug Atheist (Level 80 Mage) some cash and a set of Abtruse Conjuredflame armor on Test?

If you see me on as Zgrak, shoot me a tell. I can't help with the armour, but I can pass on some of the fortune that jetz0r sent to me.

Also, I'm keen to do the J5 merc quest, so if anyone is doing that anytime soon, I'd love to join in. I work/play stupid hours though, so I have a feeling it might be tricky.

Ante Christ
May 8, 2007

blackmage posted:

If you see me on as Zgrak, shoot me a tell. I can't help with the armour, but I can pass on some of the fortune that jetz0r sent to me.

Also, I'm keen to do the J5 merc quest, so if anyone is doing that anytime soon, I'd love to join in. I work/play stupid hours though, so I have a feeling it might be tricky.

Yeah, Smugathesit and Xantarr still need to do the J5 quest too. I'll try and be on tonight.

Escape_GOAT
May 20, 2004

I'll be on in a bit and I'd love to work on the J5 quest too. I'm at the part where you have to kill champions and Prime. Thalyn, 83 nec, will be in soon.

Wask
May 2, 2003
I punch midgets for fun
I'm down to help do Murdunk's Last Stand for anyone working on the J5 quest line. I'm also running a few other tasks regularly and will be task adding people for free experience or free HoT progression flagging. I'm also putting anything level 80+ that's of use in the guild bank.

Check the guild bank, there is some handy stuff and massive upgrades if you're just hitting 80. Name is Laids in-game.

acumen
Mar 17, 2005
Fun Shoe
Yeah I've decided to cool it on the AAs for a bit (500 on monk, 200 on bard/mage) and just power to 80. It seems like quite a big power increase at that point.

Devor
Nov 30, 2004
Lurking more.
I've caught up with the requests for Abstruse from Xafty and Remicade, so no one else is line right now for chain/plate. I've still been keeping an eye out for silk and leather, but I'm a bit short for being able to afford both still. Haven't seen any new ones showing up cheaper on Firiona Vie.

VenimeuxHaine
Mar 22, 2012
I tried to send you some pp on FV last night but can't because I don't have gold status. I'll look for you online on test and set something up. Thanks for all the effort you're going through for us.

Beach Party
May 2, 2012

"I took the most excellent hit of my life. Next thing I knew, I was on the beach taking in some cosmic rays gettin healed by mother nature. Takin in a little brewski, holdin on to a beautiful babe. And I'm fine today!"
What class would you recommend for somebody just starting out who hasnt played this in a long time? I really wouldnt want to get into boxing characters at all so i would like a character thats self sufficient solo or with a with a merc. Also how is grouping on the test server? In the OP it says its a low population server but are their enough people around weird times of the day to tackle higher level content?

Devor
Nov 30, 2004
Lurking more.

Beach Party posted:

What class would you recommend for somebody just starting out who hasnt played this in a long time? I really wouldnt want to get into boxing characters at all so i would like a character thats self sufficient solo or with a with a merc. Also how is grouping on the test server? In the OP it says its a low population server but are their enough people around weird times of the day to tackle higher level content?

When I was single-boxing, I had some fun with monk. I think the question is what you'd like to do - if it's bumming around and exploring zones solo, monk is great for that. It can solo well enough once you get the mend AAs, and before that you can do very well with a merc in tow. But there's certainly other classes that are viable, if you aren't as impressed by the combat number spam as I am.

If you read a few pages back there is some grouping for missions and whatnot, but my impression is that it's usually not an entire group of level-appropriate, usually has a high level or two helping to carry the group.

Medullah
Aug 14, 2003

FEAR MY SHARK ROCKET IT REALLY SUCKS AND BLOWS
Anyone have any Ethereal Metal Rings they can testcopy and send Larrye? I have a few of the patterns for the Planes armor, and want to make them for the clicky effects.

Pilsner
Nov 23, 2002

Beach Party posted:

What class would you recommend for somebody just starting out who hasnt played this in a long time? I really wouldnt want to get into boxing characters at all so i would like a character thats self sufficient solo or with a with a merc. Also how is grouping on the test server? In the OP it says its a low population server but are their enough people around weird times of the day to tackle higher level content?
Can you give me some "hints" for a class? Do you prefer a caster, hybrid or pure meleee? Personally I would always recommend a feign-death or memblur-capable class to a soloer, as multiple pulls are still a dangerous foe to a soloer in EQ.

acumen
Mar 17, 2005
Fun Shoe
You could always be a necro and have FD and a pet.

Picnic Lunch
May 1, 2006

Damn tailgaters
Biscuit Hider

Flarestar posted:

In addition to the above, I'm now copying over:

Level 85 stuff:
Whisper-Steel Loop

Level 92+ stuff:
Full RoF T1 visible + non-visible armor. (it's all/all, no class requirements)
Hissing Unsociable Blade - 1h slasher
Reticent Gar - lance
Voiceless Hound Skean - dagger
Silent Grimace - fist wrap
Stygian Nightmare's Bow <-- not the ranger bow, still working on getting that

I could use a set of 92 gear when you get a chance. I'm about 50% away from being able to use it and there is not very much stuff on the bazaar. My character's name is Hyeater. If you had a weapon for mage that would be good too.

Beach Party
May 2, 2012

"I took the most excellent hit of my life. Next thing I knew, I was on the beach taking in some cosmic rays gettin healed by mother nature. Takin in a little brewski, holdin on to a beautiful babe. And I'm fine today!"
I was thinking something like like a shadowknight or bard but i heard you need a lot of AAs to really open up the potential of the classes. Mage seems like it would be fun since the pet can tank while you dps away. Just looking for an easy class that i can mess around with and tackle underlevel raid targets, while exploring zones ive never been to before. I dont need massive combat spam, just something mindless i dont need to think a lot about.

acumen
Mar 17, 2005
Fun Shoe
I'm boxing my mage with my bard and monk and it seems to be pretty good like that. The nukes are solid and the pet's damage is a lot better than I thought it'd be. They're fairly straightforward too in that all you really need to do is nuke and /pet attack. Maybe resist debuff if you feel like it. If you want to actively play there's a lot of temporary pet buffs you can cast too.

Baconroll
Feb 6, 2009
Any suggestions on where to level from level 65 on test ? I really only played seriously upto PoP, so my knowledge of higher level zones is pretty sketchy.

Playing a beastlord in appropriate defiant with a merc at the moment.

Aragosta
May 12, 2001

hiding in plain sight

Baconroll posted:

Any suggestions on where to level from level 65 on test ? I really only played seriously upto PoP, so my knowledge of higher level zones is pretty sketchy.

Playing a beastlord in appropriate defiant with a merc at the moment.

I'd suggest The Hole until 70–71 and then move to Paw until 80. I'm not sure how busy those zones are on test, but the xp is second to none.

Pilsner
Nov 23, 2002

Beach Party posted:

I was thinking something like like a shadowknight or bard but i heard you need a lot of AAs to really open up the potential of the classes. Mage seems like it would be fun since the pet can tank while you dps away. Just looking for an easy class that i can mess around with and tackle underlevel raid targets, while exploring zones ive never been to before. I dont need massive combat spam, just something mindless i dont need to think a lot about.
I levelled a mage solo (with merc) once and it got a little long in the tooth in the 60's. Granted I was on Live so the XP was half of Test, but the mechanics are the same. Their pet can indeed DPS while you toss in a nuke or two per mob, but if your pet dies you're in for a hassle summoning a new one plus lots of waiting for mana to regen. You're also really screwed if you pull too many.

Regarding bards, they need very few AA, possibly the fewest of any to "open up", so don't worry about that. The mass amount of AAs an SK needs is only really at higher levels if you want to do "serious" tanking or swarming, which isn't your stated goal - a lvl 80 SK with little to no AA can wipe out old raids for sure. He will have an easier time than a magician in old raids by FAR; melee is just more suitable for it, plus he can FD.

Escape_GOAT
May 20, 2004

Beach Party posted:

I was thinking something like like a shadowknight or bard but i heard you need a lot of AAs to really open up the potential of the classes. Mage seems like it would be fun since the pet can tank while you dps away. Just looking for an easy class that i can mess around with and tackle underlevel raid targets, while exploring zones ive never been to before. I dont need massive combat spam, just something mindless i dont need to think a lot about.

Sounds like you should go with a necro. The pet is not as robust as the Mage pets and stacking DOTs means low burst damage, but necros have so much utility and more ways to avoid dying than any other class. Invis + FD makes exploring almost anywhere super easy.

veril
Aug 28, 2004
...
I've started on test as Caelaene, magician. Got up to 36 so far.

If care packages are still going around, and there's anything mage-usable (or platinum), I'd appreciate that.

Also didn't see anything in the last few pages about this -- Is there a goon guild on Test, or just the goontest chat channel?

Flarestar
Dec 23, 2005
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Pilsner posted:

I levelled a mage solo (with merc) once and it got a little long in the tooth in the 60's. Granted I was on Live so the XP was half of Test, but the mechanics are the same. Their pet can indeed DPS while you toss in a nuke or two per mob, but if your pet dies you're in for a hassle summoning a new one plus lots of waiting for mana to regen. You're also really screwed if you pull too many.

Regarding bards, they need very few AA, possibly the fewest of any to "open up", so don't worry about that. The mass amount of AAs an SK needs is only really at higher levels if you want to do "serious" tanking or swarming, which isn't your stated goal - a lvl 80 SK with little to no AA can wipe out old raids for sure. He will have an easier time than a magician in old raids by FAR; melee is just more suitable for it, plus he can FD.

The only way you can realistically say that a bard needs very few AA is if you intend on doing nothing with it but just autofollowing someone with a melody going. In which case, roll a shaman instead. You get far more benefit from playing a lazybox shaman than a lazybox bard.

Otherwise you're going to want a little over 1.5k AAs on the bard just to take care of basics.

Escape_GOAT
May 20, 2004

veril posted:

I've started on test as Caelaene, magician. Got up to 36 so far.

If care packages are still going around, and there's anything mage-usable (or platinum), I'd appreciate that.

Also didn't see anything in the last few pages about this -- Is there a goon guild on Test, or just the goontest chat channel?

The Roost Gave Me Harpies is pretty much the goon guild. There's at least 20 people on most evenings.

MrTheDevious
May 7, 2006

Ahh nostalgia, you cruel bitch

Flarestar posted:

The only way you can realistically say that a bard needs very few AA is if you intend on doing nothing with it but just autofollowing someone with a melody going. In which case, roll a shaman instead. You get far more benefit from playing a lazybox shaman than a lazybox bard.

Otherwise you're going to want a little over 1.5k AAs on the bard just to take care of basics.

This is highly true. A 250AA bard only puts out about 1k DPS. By the time you hit 1.5k AA or so, your bard'll be putting out AT LEAST 1025 DPS. I dunno about you guys, but an extra 25 DPS is a pretty good return on investment for only 1000 more AAs.

cycomatix
Apr 23, 2008
Fun Shoe
Woah woah woah... bards can attack?

Flarestar
Dec 23, 2005
Diesel Powered Robot Panda

MrTheDevious posted:

This is highly true. A 250AA bard only puts out about 1k DPS. By the time you hit 1.5k AA or so, your bard'll be putting out AT LEAST 1025 DPS. I dunno about you guys, but an extra 25 DPS is a pretty good return on investment for only 1000 more AAs.

The goons in this thread have already demonstrated a marked lack of ability to detect sarcasm. Try not to confuse the poor souls.

Pilsner
Nov 23, 2002

I put my own customized UI up on EQInterface if anyone's interested. Note that the screenshot is messed up due to my transparency/alpha settings (the windows don't look white in-game), but here it is:



You can read about and download it here: http://www.eqinterface.com/downloads/fileinfo.php?id=6417

Flarestar posted:

The only way you can realistically say that a bard needs very few AA is if you intend on doing nothing with it but just autofollowing someone with a melody going. In which case, roll a shaman instead. You get far more benefit from playing a lazybox shaman than a lazybox bard.

Otherwise you're going to want a little over 1.5k AAs on the bard just to take care of basics.
Weird, back during the 2012 F2P goonrush I remember everyone (including Kodaji ahem) saying that bards required like 50AA to start being useful and that was it.

It depends on the definition of "opening up" anyway... for soloing old Velious raids, you don't need much other than lvl 80, a merc and some HoT gear to wipe out everything.

Pilsner fucked around with this message at 10:59 on Feb 4, 2013

MrTheDevious
May 7, 2006

Ahh nostalgia, you cruel bitch

Pilsner posted:

Weird, back during the 2012 F2P goonrush I remember everyone (including Kodaji ahem) saying that bards required like 50AA to start being useful and that was it.

It depends on the definition of "opening up" anyway... for soloing old Velious raids, you don't need much other than lvl 80, a merc and some HoT gear to wipe out everything.

If someone handed my bard 1500AA I honestly don't know what I'd even do with them. Put them into the generic defensives every class gets, I guess. You can get literally every AA that modifies bard-only stuff with 250ish AA. Then it's either dumping into generic defensives or generic DPS AA that might, after maxing every single possible AA, increase your personal DPS from horrifically low to pretty-drat-low

Flarestar
Dec 23, 2005
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Pilsner posted:

Weird, back during the 2012 F2P goonrush I remember everyone (including Kodaji ahem) saying that bards required like 50AA to start being useful and that was it.

That's because at the time of the 2012 F2P goonrush, I don't think we had a single person with a bard main in the guild except for me, and I wasn't particularly paying attention to the thread back then. I mean technically they require 0 AA to start being useful. 50 AA basically just buys instrument and singing mastery and maybe Jamfest.

MrTheDevious posted:

If someone handed my bard 1500AA I honestly don't know what I'd even do with them. Put them into the generic defensives every class gets, I guess. You can get literally every AA that modifies bard-only stuff with 250ish AA. Then it's either dumping into generic defensives or generic DPS AA that might, after maxing every single possible AA, increase your personal DPS from horrifically low to pretty-drat-low

This is because you never really learned to play a bard. I don't mean that as a slam, you just never really had a need to - your bard was a buffbox and that was about it. There's nothing wrong with that, but like I said, if you're going to use it as just a lazybox buffer, you're better off just rolling a shaman. Less maintenance, similar buffs.

Bard dps is not pretty-drat-low once you're AA'd and geared (Flare typically sits around 3.5k - 4.5k, and he's barely over 2k AA), and they're actually very capable tanks - a bard main tanked for a raid guild on Luclin for several years, in fact. Most of you have a lot of misconceptions about bards due to either grouping with bad ones, or only ever really being exposed to bards that are buffboxes.

Not Grover
Nov 6, 2007

Flarestar posted:

Bard dps is not pretty-drat-low once you're AA'd and geared (Flare typically sits around 3.5k - 4.5k, and he's barely over 2k AA), and they're actually very capable tanks - a bard main tanked for a raid guild on Luclin for several years, in fact. Most of you have a lot of misconceptions about bards due to either grouping with bad ones, or only ever really being exposed to bards that are buffboxes.

Weeellll, that's sort of true. That wasn't just any bard, that was Mortenson. He was about as maxed out as you can be as a bard, and he only MT'd stuff that was already on farm, as I recall. That's not to dismiss his accomplishments, cause dude could throw down. Probably the best bard I've ever seen, actually.

thewhitehand
Sep 11, 2008

Devor posted:

I've caught up with the requests for Abstruse from Xafty and Remicade, so no one else is line right now for chain/plate. I've still been keeping an eye out for silk and leather, but I'm a bit short for being able to afford both still. Haven't seen any new ones showing up cheaper on Firiona Vie.

Got the care pack thanks goon bro

Flarestar
Dec 23, 2005
Diesel Powered Robot Panda

Not Grover posted:

Weeellll, that's sort of true. That wasn't just any bard, that was Mortenson. He was about as maxed out as you can be as a bard, and he only MT'd stuff that was already on farm, as I recall. That's not to dismiss his accomplishments, cause dude could throw down. Probably the best bard I've ever seen, actually.

Honestly he was pretty clueless. I knew Mortenson long before he started RA and convinced 30-something people to gear up his bard. Point though, is that most people sell the bard class far short of what it's capable of. If you really want to get some use out of one, dump AAs into it. They actually get a lot more benefit from DPS related AAs than most melee do, proportionally. Vanilla bard dps is miserable, but by the time you finish maxing out flurry, crit, dual wield, double attack, triple attack AAs they can hold their own with other melee pretty nicely.

Plus Selo's Kick. Do not forget Selo's Kick. It's more like Selo's Hypersonic Boot To The Junk, at max rank I've had that crit for 14k.

Vomik
Jul 29, 2003

This post is dedicated to the brave Mujahideen fighters of Afghanistan
drat I would love to be capable at 2k AA. My SK is rolling close to 3800 at 85. I'll probably hit 4k before I level up.

That's without touching a single pet aa OR the AA that increase my mana regen/hp regen worn cap OR innate mana regen/hp regen.

Sand Monster
Apr 13, 2008

Devor posted:

I've caught up with the requests for Abstruse from Xafty and Remicade, so no one else is line right now for chain/plate. I've still been keeping an eye out for silk and leather, but I'm a bit short for being able to afford both still. Haven't seen any new ones showing up cheaper on Firiona Vie.

Please add me (Samuqan) to the list for chain. Thank you.

Vomik
Jul 29, 2003

This post is dedicated to the brave Mujahideen fighters of Afghanistan
A general user interface question: Is there an easy way to rapidly change your hot bars? I have like 6 hot bars full of poo poo already, but the problem is a lot of them are only useful for tanking. I'd like to be able to change my hot bars depending on what I'm doing without manually dragging buttons around... is that possible?

acumen
Mar 17, 2005
Fun Shoe
Use the spinner/hotkeys to switch your hotbars? If your tanking poo poo is on hotbars 1, 2, 3, then when you're in dps mode or whatever just click click click to hotbar #4, 5, 6?

Devor
Nov 30, 2004
Lurking more.

Sand Monster posted:

Please add me (Samuqan) to the list for chain. Thank you.

What class?

Also: skill mods on items. Do they stack? E.g. if I have two weapons with +12% backstab, is that better than one weapon with +12% backstab?

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slave to my cravings
Mar 1, 2007

Got my mind on doritos and doritos on my mind.

Flarestar posted:

Plus Selo's Kick. Do not forget Selo's Kick. It's more like Selo's Hypersonic Boot To The Junk, at max rank I've had that crit for 14k.

Yea I was surprised when I first got Selo's Kick too. I thought it would be a weak-rear end 50 point kick. Turns out it's more of a bard version of backstab, not too shabby. I routinely will kick for anywhere between 700 and 5000.

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