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John Charity Spring posted:1) It's Carlot dan Eider, who ran up against Glokta in Dagoska and then went to Styria and got hosed over in Best Served Cold. 1) huh, drat. How did you know? 2) fair enough. Thanks!
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Feb 9, 2013 14:49
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There may have been a specific bit of dialog, I don't remember, it was more about having dan Eider having an open ending and being available to be the Mayor, as far as I was concerned.
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Feb 9, 2013 15:31
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It's never explicitly stated but it's heavily implied given the history of the character, her personality, and so on.
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Feb 9, 2013 15:41
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They never say Lamb's real name out loud either but I think it's pretty obvious who the Mayor is. The description wouldn't be so nudge-nudge-wink-wink if it was just a random person.
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Feb 9, 2013 15:51
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Can anyone remind me/give a quick synopsis of the historical lore in the first law universe? I read the trilogy a while ago and I would like a refresher before starting Red Country. By historical lore, I am referring to Bayaz and the Magi, Jurvens and those brothers/Makers, whatever the Seed was/did etc. I can barely recall the names let alone the currently-known story, there was some type of framed-murder or something? I also couldn't find a synopsis online anywhere, this series could really use a wiki to keep track of all the characters and nations. Is there even an official map that depicts the various nations locations next to each other? I'm pretty sure the one always linked to in this thread is just some guy's interpretation based off of context clues in the series and I don't know how accurate it's supposed to be or if Abercrombie has commented on it.
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Feb 10, 2013 00:27
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So It Goes posted:Can anyone remind me/give a quick synopsis of the historical lore in the first law universe? I read the trilogy a while ago and I would like a refresher before starting Red Country. By historical lore, I am referring to Bayaz and the Magi, Jurvens and those brothers/Makers, whatever the Seed was/did etc. I can barely recall the names let alone the currently-known story, there was some type of framed-murder or something? I also couldn't find a synopsis online anywhere, this series could really use a wiki to keep track of all the characters and nations. Is there even an official map that depicts the various nations locations next to each other? I'm pretty sure the one always linked to in this thread is just some guy's interpretation based off of context clues in the series and I don't know how accurate it's supposed to be or if Abercrombie has commented on it. My own recollection isn't perfect but this is what I remember of it: Bayaz was the first apprentice of Juvens who went to study with the Maker (Juvens' brother) in order to steal his secrets and along the way seduced the Maker's daughter (Tomlei or something)to gain full access to the Maker's tower. The Maker found out and was understandably pissed, causing Bayaz to flee back to Juvens for protection. At this point its heavily implied that he either murders Juvens himself or somehow caused the Maker to do it, because above all Bayaz loves power and can't stand other people having more knowledge or power than himself. In either case, Bayaz pins the murder on the Maker, and leads the rest of Juvens' apprentices who now call themselves "the magi" in an attack on the Maker's tower where they kill the Maker himself and Bayaz also quietly murders Tomlei to further conceal his part in the whole affair. Bayaz seems to get away with it, except that Juvens's second apprentice (Khalul?) becomes suspicious and eventually is convinced that Bayaz orchestrated the whole thing and is ultimately responsible for Juvens' murder. He then proceeds to build an army of eaters (mages who use cannibalism to enhance their power, something forbidden by Juvens under his First Law) and becomes the de-facto ruler of the Ghurkish Empire that attacks the Union (which is Bayaz's power-base). He created a whole religion in order to control the Empire and calls himself The Prophet. Only he and a few of his followers know the truth which is that the whole thing is just an instrument to get to Bayaz. The seed was something like a piece of the underworld that acts as an enormous source of power, which Bayaz goes on a quest to find in order to use it against Khalul and his followers who can match his power and are vastly more numerous. The Seed was allegedly hidden somewhere on another continent by the third brother of the original trio of all-powerful mages (the Maker, Juvens and this guy whose name I dont remember). Because the Seed was linked to the underworld Bayaz needed someone who could communicate with spirits (Logen) and someone who is part-demon to carry the thing (the part-demon girl) in order to get it. However it turned out to have been hidden in the Maker's tower all along. As far as what you need to know for Red Country: -Bayaz controls the Union overtly through his influence on the king and the ministers, but also covertly through the very powerful bank Valint & Balk, which he secretly owns. He also uses the bank to meddle in the affairs of other nations without officially involving the Union -The continent on which Red Country takes place is the same one where Bayaz initially thought the Seed was hidden. Its called The Old Empire, but the empire was torn apart by endless civil wars for centuries and is now mostly lawless except for a few fragments ruled by one general or another (all calling themselves emperors). The Union is currently trying to get foothold on the continent to extend their colonial power. Mr.48 fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Feb 15, 2013 |
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Feb 10, 2013 05:50
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There's a map of the world in my edition of Red Country. As for what Mr.48 posted, it's all correct except for one thing: Khalul didn't go to the Old Empire - he went to Gurkhul. The Old Empire is something else entirely, and is in opposition to both Gurkhul and the Union - Red Country will show you why. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Feb 10, 2013 |
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Feb 10, 2013 10:52
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Can you post the world map? The only one I can find online is a specific map of the far country area, not a map of the world. Wasn't there four brothers including Juvens and the Maker. Did the other two do anything or matter in any way?
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Feb 10, 2013 19:24
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So It Goes posted:Can you post the world map? The only one I can find online is a specific map of the far country area, not a map of the world. There was Glustrod, who was the evil one that didn't get any super powers from Euz and summoned demons. And there was Bedesh, the guy who could speak to spirits about whom we know basically nothing.
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Feb 10, 2013 20:27
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So It Goes posted:Can you post the world map? The only one I can find online is a specific map of the far country area, not a map of the world. Glustrod was supposed to have the power to talk to the outside. I think he was denied it and made the seed and did it anyway, unleashing a bunch of demons. I believe Juvens stopped him. The other one is Bedesh, who had the power to talk to spirits(like Logan). I believe it is unknown if he is alive, and if so, where he is.
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Feb 10, 2013 20:27
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Lemon Curdistan posted:There's a map of the world in my edition of Red Country. Sorry, I didnt mean to imply he went to the Old empire, I just called it "an empire" because I couldn't remember the name.
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Feb 10, 2013 21:03
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So It Goes posted:Can you post the world map? The only one I can find online is a specific map of the far country area, not a map of the world. Actually, I re-checked and you're right: there's no world map, only a map of the Near/Far Country. Abercrombie is on record saying he hates world maps so pretty sure that's by design. My bad. 
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Feb 10, 2013 22:02
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I'll repost this world map I found off some forum, not sure about the accuracy though but no one raised a big stink last time soo...
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Feb 11, 2013 01:06
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That's the one I was talking about that is some random guys drawing from deviantart. It was definitely really helpful keeping general locations straight in my head in relation to the Union though. Why does Abercrombie hate maps anyways? They are really helpful.
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Feb 11, 2013 01:47
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Fire Safety Doug posted:I'll repost this world map I found off some forum, not sure about the accuracy though but no one raised a big stink last time soo... Angland and the Northlands are on a different landmass than the Old Empire so that can't be right.
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Feb 11, 2013 02:24
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So It Goes posted:That's the one I was talking about that is some random guys drawing from deviantart. It was definitely really helpful keeping general locations straight in my head in relation to the Union though. Why does Abercrombie hate maps anyways? They are really helpful. Probably because they make him spend too much time focusing on logistics and take away from storytelling.
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Feb 11, 2013 07:29
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So It Goes posted:Why does Abercrombie hate maps anyways? They are really helpful. Handily, he answered this a while ago: http://www.joeabercrombie.com/2007/10/02/maps-craps-2/
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Feb 11, 2013 16:38
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Mr.48 posted:Angland and the Northlands are on a different landmass than the Old Empire so that can't be right. Reading the books I got the definite impression they where on the same continent, the divider was a river IIRC:
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Feb 11, 2013 17:03
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Mr.48 posted:Angland and the Northlands are on a different landmass than the Old Empire so that can't be right. Angland is just the part of the North owned/colonized by the Union, I thought that was pretty obvious...reason why West was more familiar with Northmen and spoke Northern, he knew a bunch of them since he was from Angland.
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Feb 11, 2013 18:38
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DarkCrawler posted:Angland is just the part of the North owned/colonized by the Union, I thought that was pretty obvious...reason why West was more familiar with Northmen and spoke Northern, he knew a bunch of them since he was from Angland. I mean both areas are supposed to be on a landmass separate from the Old Empire. Could be wrong though.
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Feb 11, 2013 22:24
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Kinda confused at the reactions to Red Country here. I thought it was great, less important plot wise as far as Abercrombie's world goes compared to Best Served Cold and The Heroes, but with a lot of heart. I really enjoyed Temple and Shy's characters. And it was great seeing what happened to Logen. Looking forward to Abercrombie's next book as always.
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Feb 12, 2013 05:08
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Mr.48 posted:I mean both areas are supposed to be on a landmass separate from the Old Empire. Could be wrong though. They travelled by boat between the two, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're separate landmasses, just that it's a faster way to travel.
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Feb 12, 2013 13:09
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I finished Red Country about a two weeks ago and while I've thoroughly enjoyed all of Abercrombie's work this is the first of his novels that I found truly amazing. It was so good it made me want to revisit all the earlier books so as to really delve into the world he creates. Doing this brought a plot related question to my mind to which I can't find the answer. Why did Logen and his crew fall out with Bethod before the first book?
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Feb 12, 2013 19:17
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The Puppy Bowl posted:I finished Red Country about a two weeks ago and while I've thoroughly enjoyed all of Abercrombie's work this is the first of his novels that I found truly amazing. It was so good it made me want to revisit all the earlier books so as to really delve into the world he creates. Doing this brought a plot related question to my mind to which I can't find the answer. I think (it's been a while since I read the trilogy and haven't gotten around to Heroes or Red Country yet) Logen was Bethod's chief enforcer/ executioner/ general and Bethod grew sick of Logen's murderous rampages. My memory is pretty hazy on this though, so that might be complete nonsense.
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Feb 12, 2013 19:40
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The Supreme Court posted:I think (it's been a while since I read the trilogy and haven't gotten around to Heroes or Red Country yet) Logen was Bethod's chief enforcer/ executioner/ general and Bethod grew sick of Logen's murderous rampages. My memory is pretty hazy on this though, so that might be complete nonsense. To clarify further: Bethod only grew in power because Logen, as Ninefingers, kept dragging him into wars and bloodfeuds, so Logen was responsible for Bethod's rise. Bethod claims to have never even wanted anything more than a few strips of land to leave for Scale and Calder; his becoming King was all thanks to Ninefingers, basically. Logen eventually became a millstone rather than an asset, and Bethod threw him out in disgrace instead of killing him as a favour to Bayaz. I don't think there was any specific breaking point in their relationship. Bethod's verbally tears Logen a new one about the whole affair during their reunion in Last Argument. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Feb 12, 2013 |
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Feb 12, 2013 20:09
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Thank you for the clarification, though I actually think I knew all that. For some reason i got it in my head that there was a specific incident that led to Bethod turning on Logen and throwing him and his crew in prison Still very grateful for having that cleared up.
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Feb 12, 2013 23:01
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How long was it between Bethod throwing Logen out and the first book?
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Feb 12, 2013 23:26
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Affi posted:How long was it between Bethod throwing Logen out and the first book?
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Feb 12, 2013 23:32
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I was under the impression that his familial years were during/ near the end of the Bethod years.
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Feb 13, 2013 12:11
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I think Logen and his family came before his working for Bethod. If I remember right the whole reason he became Bethod's champion was to win support so his clan didn't get wiped out by the Shanka.
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Feb 13, 2013 19:15
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Blind Melon posted:I think Logen and his family came before his working for Bethod. If I remember right the whole reason he became Bethod's champion was to win support so his clan didn't get wiped out by the Shanka. This is what I thought. So I wonder how long Logen and Co were stuck in the High Places and what they did after being kicked out.
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Feb 13, 2013 20:25
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John Charity Spring posted:It's never explicitly stated but it's heavily implied given the history of the character, her personality, and so on. There was the physical description, her personality, and the fact that she reacted when one of the characters was talking about the fall of Dagoska.
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Feb 14, 2013 01:55
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Blind Melon posted:I think Logen and his family came before his working for Bethod. If I remember right the whole reason he became Bethod's champion was to win support so his clan didn't get wiped out by the Shanka. Yes but he says it was at the insistence of his father that he set out from his village in search of help for fighting the Shanka. The idea that his father told him to do it made me think he was still young like 17 but I suppose there is no reason that has to be true.
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Feb 14, 2013 08:38
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So I just finished The Heroes last night and am about to start reading Red Country. I really loved that whole scene where the PoV kept changing from one killed person to the person they were going to kill. Really exciting and conveyed how chaotic the fighting is. Bremer dan Gorst was fantastic to read, especially when you get some perspective from outside of him at the very end which kind of flips the whole thing upside down. Craw was great and I thoroughly enjoyed Corporal Tunney. Additionally, the way they evolved Calder and Scale from completely tertiary characters was really well done, not to mention seeing the way the events of Best Served Cold affected Shivers all the way to him killing Black Down for not treating him as a valued ally the way Monza drove him off. I'm really hoping he gets out the next trilogy soon because I need some more Sand dan Glokta in my life, not to mention everyones favorite wizard rear end in a top hat, Bayaz. I know this is pretty late in the discussion, but I noticed earlier in the thread there was a lot of discussion over the scene with Bayaz and Black Calder at the end of The Heroes and the meaning of aspects of the scene. The way that I took it was that Bayaz was just eating his dinner in a morbid location to unnerve Black Calder as opposed to himself dining on human flesh. We know that Yoru is an eater as well as Shenkt which leads me to believe that Bayaz merely employs eaters as opposed to being one himself. The discussion of the line where Yoru Sulfur responds to the question of there being any dessert by saying Black Dow has dessert isn't implying they were chowing down on him, but he recieved his 'just deserts' for opposing Bayaz and Calder would to if he got out of line.
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Feb 14, 2013 16:52
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Ithaqua posted:There was Glustrod, who was the evil one that didn't get any super powers from Euz and summoned demons. And there was Bedesh, the guy who could speak to spirits about whom we know basically nothing. Stuff like this and Mr. 48's recap of the mythology behind the series is why I wish this series had a better wiki. Because the one we have right now is like this: 
Contra Calculus fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Feb 14, 2013 |
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Feb 14, 2013 23:19
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Contra Calculus posted:Stuff like this and Mr. 48's recap of the mythology behind the series is why I wish this series had a better wiki. Because the one we have right now is like this:
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Feb 14, 2013 23:29
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Above Our Own posted:I appreciate how Abercrombie uses lore to help characterize and flavor his setting, instead of using it to help tell the story. So you're saying Abercrombie uses lore to help tell a story instead of using it to help tell a story? 
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Feb 15, 2013 00:48
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Contra Calculus posted:Stuff like this and Mr. 48's recap of the mythology behind the series is why I wish this series had a better wiki. Because the one we have right now is like this: That's basically the first trilogy though.
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Feb 15, 2013 01:14
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Contra Calculus posted:So you're saying Abercrombie uses lore to help tell a story instead of using it to help tell a story? e. Let me be more clear, it's common in fantasy for the in-fiction lore to directly impact and shape the narrative. If you want to be really obtuse you can say that this is the case here too, but my point is that Abercrombie (and GRRM too for another example) are a lot more subtle with how much the lore railroads the plot, and they use that background information to focus on other aspects of storytelling. Like character development--the Juvens lore really helps set up the gradual reveal for just how much of an rear end in a top hat Bayaz really is. Or adding color and flavor to the world like the technomagical dragon in RC or the Feared in TFL, both of which are just auxiliary story pieces but help establish the setting. Maybe some examples of fantasy authors who rely more heavily on the lore to move the story forward are Tolkein, who does it extremely well, and Sanderson who I think does it horribly. In Sanderson's books, the characters are just floating heads that explain the plot to the reader. Abercrombie uses the natural conflicts between (and within) characters to propel the narrative along. Above Our Own fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Feb 15, 2013 |
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Feb 15, 2013 04:49
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Above Our Own posted:Maybe some examples of fantasy authors who rely more heavily on the lore to move the story forward are Tolkein, who does it extremely well, and Sanderson who I think does it horribly. In Sanderson's books, the characters are just floating heads that explain the plot to the reader. Abercrombie uses the natural conflicts between (and within) characters to propel the narrative along. That's a bad example of bad lore telling. Sanderson has horrible characterisation is his earlier books (it has improved), but his lore telling in The Way of Kings and mistborn is actually pretty well done. In the sense that the history of the world is part of the mystery, gradually explained and relevant. I mean, it's not because he had trouble with writing interesting characters that the lore is bad, at all. I'd say world building is the best part of Sanderson's books. An example of bad lore telling would be "Acacia: The War with the Mein". In that book you have scenes like "we started this completely illogical war because (insert exposition of things that happened 1000 years ago)", "we just won this war because (exposition of something that happend a long time ago)", and "you must do this completely stupid thing because (exposition of something that happened 1000 years ago)". You get the impression that the writer really wanted his story to go a certain way despite that requiring illogical/unbelieveable actions and then decied to make up a history (itself filled with illogical actions) that could explain those. None of Abercrombie, Sanderson or Grrm suffer from this in my opinion.
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Feb 16, 2013 16:04
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