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FigurativelyHitler posted:Is it ever mentioned or explained exactly what the hell the Coramoor is and why he's not just the Dragon Reborn? Presumably the Sea Folk had Windfinders with Foretelling, or Dreamwalkers, or whatever, and came up with various prophecies without referring to the Karatheon Cycle that the mainland had - more or less the same idea as the Aiel having their own prophecy-having folks and thus coming up with different names. Either without the White Tower to maintain an idea of "Dragon" and "false Dragon" and "Dragon Reborn", the other groups' prophecy-havers didn't know to call the subject of their prophecies the Dragon Reborn, or they didn't think that their prophesied-leader-guy would necessarily also be the Dragon Reborn.
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Feb 13, 2013 02:53
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FigurativelyHitler posted:Is it ever mentioned or explained exactly what the hell the Coramoor is and why he's not just the Dragon Reborn? Same reason he is the Car'a'carn to the Aiel
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Feb 13, 2013 02:54
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cumsitter posted:One thing I did like was the philosophical aspect of Rand's battle with the Dark One: I think you're prooooooobably injecting a bit into this.
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Feb 13, 2013 07:07
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zonohedron posted:Presumably the Sea Folk had Windfinders with Foretelling, or Dreamwalkers, or whatever, and came up with various prophecies without referring to the Karatheon Cycle that the mainland had - more or less the same idea as the Aiel having their own prophecy-having folks and thus coming up with different names. Either without the White Tower to maintain an idea of "Dragon" and "false Dragon" and "Dragon Reborn", the other groups' prophecy-havers didn't know to call the subject of their prophecies the Dragon Reborn, or they didn't think that their prophesied-leader-guy would necessarily also be the Dragon Reborn. What I took from it is that there are multiple possible fulfillment routes for any prophecy, each of which establishes a scenario and the outcome. If for example, Rand got killed early, the other prophecies might have been still fulfilled by another candidate.
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Feb 13, 2013 09:46
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AlternateAccount posted:I think you're prooooooobably injecting a bit into this. Yeah after I reread it I thought maybe I had 
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Feb 14, 2013 00:16
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I need some opinions and figure this would be a good place to ask. I read a lot, and I usually juggle 2 books, one being fantasy/sci fi, and the other being anything else, and just read whichever depending on if I'm in a more nerdy mood or not. I've read Ice and Fire, Tolkien, The First Law Trilogy, Salvatore(and some other Forgotten Realms) and generally liked them all. I'd say I really liked Ice and Fire and Tolkien in the sense of how big and awesome the world feels with gripping ongoing story lines. I liked First Law decent enough, although maybe not as much as a lot of goons. I'm not really sure why I didn't like it better, I think the world just felt small and cramped and while the story was good I just didn't really find myself caring too much about it. I had decided to give The Dragonlance Trilogy a shot and just finished the first book in it. I liked it well, in the same way I like Salvatore, it's easy reading. However, the story just hasn't really been that gripping although it seemed like it had potential the way it ended. I'm in the mood for something with an ongoing arc/arcs and I actually like the idea of there being about 14 books or so in the series. I'm not sure what I'm really asking here, I suppose I just want to know the strengths and weaknesses of WoT. How are the characters? Is the story really engrossing? I'm looking for something I can just lose myself in easily for hours basically. I need to decide right now whether to start book 2 of Dragonlance or give WoT(or something else) a shot. Like I said, I liked Dragonlance, and I'll eventually finish it regardless, but I just never felt compelled to keep reading out of a sense of needing to know what happens next. Suggestions? edit: I'm also aware of Discworld but don't really know much about it. The idea of having dwarves, elves and such cliches doesn't bother me at all as long as the stories and characters are good. I was under the impression Discworld is kind of goofy and really cheesy, but how badly? If I can take Salvatore or Dragonlance seriously, would this be more or less goofy? Maybe should have posted this in the generic fantasy thread, but I had my eye on WoT to begin with. Drunk Driver Dad fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Feb 17, 2013 |
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Feb 17, 2013 03:04
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BlazinLow305 posted:I need some opinions and figure this would be a good place to ask. I read a lot, and I usually juggle 2 books, one being fantasy/sci fi, and the other being anything else, and just read whichever depending on if I'm in a more nerdy mood or not. I've read Ice and Fire, Tolkien, The First Law Trilogy, Salvatore(and some other Forgotten Realms) and generally liked them all. I'd say I really liked Ice and Fire and Tolkien in the sense of how big and awesome the world feels with gripping ongoing story lines. I liked First Law decent enough, although maybe not as much as a lot of goons. I'm not really sure why I didn't like it better, I think the world just felt small and cramped and while the story was good I just didn't really find myself caring too much about it. I had decided to give The Dragonlance Trilogy a shot and just finished the first book in it. I liked it well, in the same way I like Salvatore, it's easy reading. However, the story just hasn't really been that gripping although it seemed like it had potential the way it ended. Strengths: Some of the greatest and most detailed world building in any fantasy series ever, exciting plot lines, great characters. Weaknesses (in some people's minds): A tendency to over describe everything, some later books become bogged down in the thousands of supporting characters and b and c plot lines leading to slow pacing. It's worth pointing out that the series fares a lot better when you are in a position to read the whole thing through in one go. Many slow pacing complaints come from people who had to wait years between books, leading to some books being considered unsatisfying when taken individually. Also: don't read the prequel first, it spoils early books too much.
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Feb 17, 2013 03:49
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If you like really big worldbuilding then WOT might be for you. Part of the reason this thing is 14 books long is it just took that long to visit all the places on the map. If you liked Tolkien and Martin, in a way this series is kind of halfway between them in sensibility, so that also recommends it. The story is very engrossing for the first six books or so. The big hook for me is taking the ordinary schmo characters and telling them "You have a big destiny", then have them deny it all the way until they fulfill their destiny in some spectacular way - this series is all over that stuff. With that said, the later Jordan books are really not that good (8-11 I'd say, with 10 being particularly bad). Sanderson gets things on track after that, but there's a slog to get through first. The first novels are all self-contained in that they tell a complete mini-story in service of the larger plot, but the later ones tend to start plots in book X that don't get resolved until book X+2. They also have a lot more of Jordan's weird ticks, such as his propensity to describe what everyone in the room is wearing in great detail, to note the size of every woman's boobs, and (sigh) spanking. And gender politics is a huge part of this series and a lot of people don't like the way Jordan writes all women as a bunch of shrews. Supposedly he based all the women on his wife/editor, which has unsettling implications for his marriage. But a lot of the characters - including the women! - are very endearing and easy to relate to and watching them develop for thousands of pages is great. Other good stuff - the density of wild fantasy concepts, particularly in the early books, is a lot of fun. And the battle scenes are all very well written - Jordan was a Vietnam vet, and he had the soldiers-eye-view of a battle down. (Sanderson doesn't do this as well). And like I said, it's a pleasure just to live in his giant, well-designed world. Also I will wholeheartedly recommend Discworld. The books are mostly stand-alone in one world so you can kind of pick it up anywhere. They're all comedy, and some are more farcical than others, but that doesn't stop them from having good stories and characters too! I recommend starting with "Mort" or "Guards, Guards!".
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Feb 17, 2013 03:50
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There's a Terry Pratchett thread if you want to ask more about Discworld. I'd emphasize what Omnomomnivore is saying though, I love it to death but Discworld is pretty much parody/satire with a fantasy veneer, it's not really a "serious" book series. It's not that it's cheesy like some of Salvatore's work, it's more that a lot of it is straight up written to be funny. If you want a big expansive world with long story arcs WOT is the way to go, there are plots and hints dropped in the earlier books that aren't resolved until way later in the series. You might feel a bit of unimportant minor character overload but I actually liked it because I thought it added to the world-building to have them around doing their own thing unrelated to the heroes.
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Feb 17, 2013 08:49
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To those of you that didn't like the Seanchan arc cliffhanger, because RJ wanted to make the next series a Mat/Tuon arc and wrote the epilogue, I think there are some big clues to what the followup would have been: the societal reforms eventually free every damane who wants to be freed, which includes Moghedien (and Elaida). They then become the next set of villains. It's very convenient that the handful of Big Bads that aren't killed almost all wind up in the place where the spinoff characters are starting from.
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Feb 17, 2013 13:48
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BlazinLow305 posted:I'm in the mood for something with an ongoing arc/arcs and I actually like the idea of there being about 14 books or so in the series. I'm not sure what I'm really asking here, I suppose I just want to know the strengths and weaknesses of WoT. How are the characters? Is the story really engrossing? I'm looking for something I can just lose myself in easily for hours basically. I need to decide right now whether to start book 2 of Dragonlance or give WoT(or something else) a shot. Like I said, I liked Dragonlance, and I'll eventually finish it regardless, but I just never felt compelled to keep reading out of a sense of needing to know what happens next. Suggestions? Terry Pratchett is a better writer than Jordan, in the sense of having a better prose style. He's screamingly funny, and comparable with other great humorists of the English language, especially Wodehouse. The forty-odd discworld books don't all link together in one plot arc, though; there are basically four or five groups of characters and any given book is a new story about one of those groups, with maybe some of the others showing up as cameos. It's not "cheesy" humor per se -- my favorite example of a Pratchett joke is a page or two where he gives us the viewpoint of a human blacksmith/armorer who's changed his name to "Stronginthearm" and uses a dwarf on his logo because he knows people prefer dwarf-made metal goods. Jordan is also good in his own way, but it's a different way. All his books are one single rolling plot arc. He's also got a thousand characters or so but there's a core group you're following through all the books. Jordan's really good with detailed worldbuilding, characterization, plot, and action -- he's a great writer of straight fantasy, whereas Pratchett's a great writer of comic fantasy. The downsides of the wheel of time are that some of the plot threads and some of books get really, really bogged down, especiallyb etween book 7-10 or so. But everything picks up again with book 11, the last one Jordan wrote, and the series concludes well. Overall I'd strongly recommend you read both. The main difference is that Jordan's writing straight fantasy and Pratchett's writing comic fantasy.
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Feb 17, 2013 15:53
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It occured to me the other day that the section about Taim's title - 'Leader', with the implication standing alone he led everyone and everything - was probably taken from Hitler's title that was essentially the same ('Furher', The Leader).
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Feb 17, 2013 17:10
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evilweasel posted:It occured to me the other day that the section about Taim's title - 'Leader', with the implication standing alone he led everyone and everything - was probably taken from Hitler's title that was essentially the same ('Furher', The Leader). Plus there were those ranks he was adding, Storm Leader or something like that. He was definitely giving off a Nazi vibe.
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Feb 17, 2013 18:51
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caleramaen posted:Plus there were those ranks he was adding, Storm Leader or something like that. He was definitely giving off a Nazi vibe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmbannf%C3%BChrer quote:Translated as “assault (or storm) unit leader” I think the other was Force Leader, but my German isn't good enough to pick out what that might match up to. Maybe this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scharf%C3%BChrer quote:The term schar means "squad" or "troop" It still makes me laugh his name was M'Hael, because I can't read that as anything but Michael.
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Feb 18, 2013 10:35
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If you roll on over to the Thirteen Depository there's a whole run-down on all the Nazi-inspirations used for the baddies in the books. Semirhage and Aginor in particular got that whole Nazi SCIENCE vibe (and not the fun playful Stroheim kind). This was what I was thinking of: http://13depository.blogspot.se/2002/03/semirhage.html Mengele and Himmler for Semirhage 
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Feb 18, 2013 17:52
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I can finally put away this series forever! I think Sanderson did a really nice job finishing it up. The best thing to have done would have been to pretend that Perrin never existed and write 2 books instead of 3. I really feel like if that guy and everyone who was mainly part of his story arc just disappeared it would have had practically no effect on the other parts of the plot.
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Feb 18, 2013 20:55
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The Moon Monster posted:I can finally put away this series forever! I think Sanderson did a really nice job finishing it up. The best thing to have done would have been to pretend that Perrin never existed and write 2 books instead of 3. I really feel like if that guy and everyone who was mainly part of his story arc just disappeared it would have had practically no effect on the other parts of the plot. You could say that about a lot of plots in this series. But world building is cool, and that's what a lot of those threads were trying to do. Cut out Mat, you have one of the generals have a magic amulet, bam a whole bunch of fluff taken out. Egwene and the Salidar plot line was completely irrelevant in the end. The entire point of a story this long, this detailed, is that not everything has to point towards the final plot. I do think Perrin suffered from a long, drawn out plot during Jordan's later years, and I think that's reflected in how forced his arc felt during the last 3 books.
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Feb 18, 2013 21:04
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subx posted:You could say that about a lot of plots in this series. But world building is cool, and that's what a lot of those threads were trying to do. Cut out Mat, you have one of the generals have a magic amulet, bam a whole bunch of fluff taken out. Egwene and the Salidar plot line was completely irrelevant in the end. To me it seemed like most of the other characters fit into the whole last-battle part pretty well (maybe not Moiraine, she felt pretty superfluous) while Perrin had to have a problem shoehorned in for him to solve. All the great generals, leaders, warriors, channelers and etc had pretty obvious parts to play while Perrin, the world's greatest lucid dreamer, gets to go fight some boogey-man no one else even knows about. I think he would have worked better if they had used his ability to inspire people to band together instead. Although I never found that aspect of him very convincing either... That said the Perrin-dream world-hole had already been dug so it's not like he could have just jumped out and pretended it wasn't there.
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Feb 18, 2013 22:00
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The Moon Monster posted:I think he would have worked better if they had used his ability to inspire people to band together instead. Although I never found that aspect of him very convincing either... I remember thinking that it would have been neat for Perrin's leadership abilities to explicitly play foil to the way Rand tended to alienate people from him (before the Revelation on Dragonmount). The Dragon draws people and nations together, but the nations he leads do not want to follow him; also, the Dragon must fight the Dark One, so cannot be directly involved in the Last Battle. Therefore, the Dragon needs the two ta'veren -- Mat and Perrin -- to provide military expertise and to inspire men to follow him. Perhaps Perrin could have been the true Prophet of the Dragon -- a man who could speak to the basic goodness of the Dragon, remind people why they should follow him and band together -- although I realize that would not have been completely true to Perrin's character.
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Feb 18, 2013 22:12
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I think it's pretty cool that with being able to physically go into TAR, Perrin, who's more or less just a regular dude (with yellow eyes and who can talk to wolves, sure), can basically teleport anywhere he wants. Faile being a bitch? Peace, I'm going to go to a Domani strip club.
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Feb 19, 2013 15:42
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Sanderson is coming to my hometown tomorrow for a Q&A and signing. Are there any unanswered questions we want answers to? Most of my questions center around how much of certain sections was Jordan vs. Sanderson.
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Feb 19, 2013 16:09
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If there's any sort of timeline on the encyclopedia, and what portion of the notes will ever be released?
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Feb 19, 2013 16:52
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I;m not sure if its been answered somewhere in his blog, I don't read it that often, but whether he will do annotations for WoT now that the series is done?
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Feb 19, 2013 20:26
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I know that nobody's going to write any outright followups to WoT, but does he have the rights to/does he see himself doing the occasional short story or something in the universe?
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Feb 19, 2013 21:40
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Adar posted:I know that nobody's going to write any outright followups to WoT, but does he have the rights to/does he see himself doing the occasional short story or something in the universe? I'm pretty sure he doesn't. Harriet has all the rights, so if he does do any writing for WOT in any form, it'll be at her specific request.
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Feb 19, 2013 21:55
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Adar posted:To those of you that didn't like the Seanchan arc cliffhanger, because RJ wanted to make the next series a Mat/Tuon arc and wrote the epilogue, I think there are some big clues to what the followup would have been: the societal reforms eventually free every damane who wants to be freed, which includes Moghedien (and Elaida). They then become the next set of villains. It's very convenient that the handful of Big Bads that aren't killed almost all wind up in the place where the spinoff characters are starting from. After a latest re-read, I was astonished by how Elaida had all the makings of a decent Amyrlin. She even went so far as to put the paintings of the last Red Amyrlin in her study to remind her of the price of failure. It seems she went off the rails after her exposure to Padan Fain. And yeah, I think a lot of the Seanchan cliff hangers was meant as a lead in to the out rigger novels. I imagine Fortuona's meeting with Hawkwing to play a major part of the theme of those novels.
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Feb 20, 2013 04:09
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Modguy posted:After a latest re-read, I was astonished by how Elaida had all the makings of a decent Amyrlin. She even went so far as to put the paintings of the last Red Amyrlin in her study to remind her of the price of failure. It seems she went off the rails after her exposure to Padan Fain. You have a weird sense of spoilers, spoiling stuff from previous books, but not spoiling stuff from this one. Any way I think the seeds of Elaida's fall have bee there all along. The way she interpreted the prophecy about the royal house of Andor playing a role in the last battle shows she tends view things in relation to her preconceived notions. She would never have accepted that Rand had come to terms with his role as Dragon Reborn. Fain did push her over the edge, but she was already unstable. Her hatred of Siuan and Moiraine came to be because she incorrectly thought they ratted her out for her "preperations" for their final tests to become Aes Sedai.
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Feb 20, 2013 05:03
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evilweasel posted:If there's any sort of timeline on the encyclopedia, and what portion of the notes will ever be released? I'll see if I can get answers to these, as well as one more: was there any reasoning left in the notes for the three-women-one-Rand thing? Even in Randland it's weird, so what possessed Jordan to do it? It can't be Mary-Sueing since his wife is the editor; or maybe he just had a fantastic reason.
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Feb 20, 2013 05:58
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Although I'm still fairly pleased with the ending, the longer I go after reading, the more I'm annoyed with the resolution with Ishamael/Moridin. In some respects he was one of the most interesting characters in the series for me in terms of motivation, and instead of some sort of deeper resolution we have him going out like a chump in a swordfight, being used as a conduit and dying in Rand's body. I was always hoping for a realisation that the Dark One wasn't actually anything sentient, but some sort of energy source (the Dark One is the True Power, and it has a corrupting force that unhinges the user, making them think they're hearing the voice of an omnipotent power), and the real conflict was ultimately between two humans. That would also be a more convincing reason for the Dark One being unkillable. Not because of some High School level 'free choice' philosophy, but because there isn't anything to kill. It's a power source, maybe akin to radiation with its detrimental effects from exposure, and there's nothing to kill. The only solution is to block it off and make it safe and inaccessbile.
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Feb 20, 2013 10:44
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Grundulum posted:I'll see if I can get answers to these, as well as one more: was there any reasoning left in the notes for the three-women-one-Rand thing? Even in Randland it's weird, so what possessed Jordan to do it? It can't be Mary-Sueing since his wife is the editor; or maybe he just had a fantastic reason. Jordan has stated before that at one point he had two girlfriends and if he could handle having two, then Rand surely could handle having three. That's it.
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Feb 20, 2013 10:53
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Pesmerga posted:Although I'm still fairly pleased with the ending, the longer I go after reading, the more I'm annoyed with the resolution with Ishamael/Moridin. In some respects he was one of the most interesting characters in the series for me in terms of motivation, and instead of some sort of deeper resolution we have him going out like a chump in a swordfight, being used as a conduit and dying in Rand's body. I was always hoping for a realisation that the Dark One wasn't actually anything sentient, but some sort of energy source (the Dark One is the True Power, and it has a corrupting force that unhinges the user, making them think they're hearing the voice of an omnipotent power), and the real conflict was ultimately between two humans. That would also be a more convincing reason for the Dark One being unkillable. Not because of some High School level 'free choice' philosophy, but because there isn't anything to kill. It's a power source, maybe akin to radiation with its detrimental effects from exposure, and there's nothing to kill. The only solution is to block it off and make it safe and inaccessbile. You could even STILL look at it that way, since the "realization" that the Dark One wasn't the enemy at all. After all, who hears the voice of the Dark One? Only really the people who're tapped into the True Power and/or brought to Shayol Ghul, near the power conduit.
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Feb 20, 2013 15:04
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Goes well with the whole "The Bad Guys are loving Chumps" theme too.
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Feb 20, 2013 18:12
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Modguy posted:After a latest re-read, I was astonished by how Elaida had all the makings of a decent Amyrlin. She even went so far as to put the paintings of the last Red Amyrlin in her study to remind her of the price of failure. It seems she went off the rails after her exposure to Padan Fain. She went off the rails when she overthrew Siuan Sanche for not locking up the Dragon until Tar'mon Gai'don then wheeling Rand out on a leash and saying "Here's your destined leader, follow
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Feb 20, 2013 19:41
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Pesmerga posted:Although I'm still fairly pleased with the ending, the longer I go after reading, the more I'm annoyed with the resolution with Ishamael/Moridin. In some respects he was one of the most interesting characters in the series for me in terms of motivation, and instead of some sort of deeper resolution we have him going out like a chump in a swordfight, being used as a conduit and dying in Rand's body. I was always hoping for a realisation that the Dark One wasn't actually anything sentient, but some sort of energy source (the Dark One is the True Power, and it has a corrupting force that unhinges the user, making them think they're hearing the voice of an omnipotent power), and the real conflict was ultimately between two humans. That would also be a more convincing reason for the Dark One being unkillable. Not because of some High School level 'free choice' philosophy, but because there isn't anything to kill. It's a power source, maybe akin to radiation with its detrimental effects from exposure, and there's nothing to kill. The only solution is to block it off and make it safe and inaccessbile. I wish my high school philosophy class solved the whole Free Will vs Determinism thing so neatly. Ishamael had, from the very beginning, been the one that knew what the end goal of the DO was and pushed for it. He had made himself over into a conduit of the DO, and he died serving as that.
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Feb 20, 2013 20:25
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uruloki posted:I wish my high school philosophy class solved the whole Free Will vs Determinism thing so neatly. Ishamael had, from the very beginning, been the one that knew what the end goal of the DO was and pushed for it. He had made himself over into a conduit of the DO, and he died serving as that. It's actually not clear he knew what the end goal of the DO was, and from the book it seems he was lied to as well. Oblivion is the DO's compromise position: he doesn't appear to actually seek the destruction of everything without any replacement based on his visions of the future. I think Ishmael was lied to just like everyone else.
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Feb 20, 2013 20:43
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Up to 52% into my reread on my TGS/TOM/AMOL edit (https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0ApFWTyzG9G_UdHZCUjQzVGNLeUJyMkUycXkzQlExSFE&output=html) and fixing things as I go, 3,000 pages is a lot, jesus. https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0B6AKoUX7yA1edEYwNnk1N3hYMU0/edit?usp=sharing
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Feb 21, 2013 03:00
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Recap of the Raleigh signing: Encyclopedia is currently projected to be out in 2015ish. They obviously couldn't do it before the books were done, but Harriet is taking the reins on this herself to see it finished. (Note: the contract for the encyclopedia specifies a release by the end of 2008.) The conspicuously off-camera conversation between two characters at the end of AMoL was never really written. Sanderson thought it would be much funnier left up to the readers' imaginations. Jordan's notes will be released to the library in (I think) Charleston once the encyclopedia is out. In their entirety. Despite an incredibly detailed world ad a lot of geography to keep track of, Jordan's office had no WoT-related maps anywhere in it. He kept track of everything in his head. What he did have lots of was weapons, particularly of the edged variety. That's everything I can think of; I may edit this later if I remember more.
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Feb 21, 2013 18:54
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Of the big 3 questions Brandon wasn't allowed to answer (and at least one of which didn't have anything in the notes for) did they say if they'd put any/either of the other two in the encyclopedia?
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Feb 21, 2013 20:01
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api call girl posted:Of the big 3 questions Brandon wasn't allowed to answer (and at least one of which didn't have anything in the notes for) did they say if they'd put any/either of the other two in the encyclopedia? I didn't think to ask, and he didn't say. Edit: I think I saw someone present him with a "RAFO" sign for him to autograph, since it could now be retired.
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Feb 21, 2013 20:26
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So I've just started into the Brandon Sanderson books. I'm about almost halfway through The Gathering Storm right now and I had a question. In Chapter 16 where Elaida and Egwene come head to head in Elaids study and Elaida calls Egwene a Dark friend, Elaida beats Egwene with switches of air until she bleeds. How is this not a blatant violation of the oath against using the power as a weapon? If it was just Elayne and Elaida that I might entertain the idea that Elaida was Black Ajah and not held but the 3 oaths, but there are a ton of other sitters in the room who, while they do think less of Elaida for beating Egwene, they make no mention of the violation of the 3 oaths. Even Egwene doesn't think of it as a violation of the oaths. TheGreySpectre fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Feb 22, 2013 |
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Feb 22, 2013 21:30
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