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That seems to be a Napaea. She's saying something like "what's more important than being alive for you?", which I think means we can talk to demons, as usual.
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Feb 21, 2013 18:02
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Pollyanna posted:That seems to be a Napaea. She's saying something like "what's more important than being alive for you?", which I think means we can talk to demons, as usual. Yeah the footage shows demons talking.
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Feb 21, 2013 18:04
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Well yes, we all expected that dumb, time-wasting mechanic back in.
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Feb 21, 2013 18:05
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I think it'd be weirder if we couldn't talk to demons.
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Feb 21, 2013 18:32
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Dragonatrix posted:I think it'd be weirder if we couldn't talk to demons. If we couldn't it pretty much wouldn't be a SMT game. Seriously, at this point that's about the only thing that's remained constant throughout the series. (No, the myriad spinoffs don't count, even if Atlus USA does slap the SMT name on them for their NA distribution) ed: Well, that and demon fusion. Genpei Turtle fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Feb 21, 2013 |
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Feb 21, 2013 18:39
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Hopefully it ends up being less RNG dependent than Strange Journey.
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Feb 21, 2013 18:54
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Demon talk is like the Pokeball moving in Pokemon to me, it's just not SMT without it  Plus it's fun.
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Feb 21, 2013 18:56
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Pureauthor posted:Well yes, we all expected that dumb, time-wasting mechanic back in. You're that gamespot reviewer aren't you.
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Feb 21, 2013 19:55
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Ugg, demon negotation, the worst mechanic in these games.
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Feb 21, 2013 20:12
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I'd be fine with demon negotiation if demons had consistent preferences based upon their type and alignment. gently caress the RNG choices that make demon negotiation in the past games BS.
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Feb 21, 2013 20:22
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kthegreat posted:I'd be fine with demon negotiation if demons had consistent preferences based upon their type and alignment. gently caress the RNG choices that make demon negotiation in the past games BS. I'm pretty sure Persona 1 and 2 had persistent preferences.
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Feb 21, 2013 20:26
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Kurtofan posted:Demon talk is like the Pokeball moving in Pokemon to me, it's just not SMT without it I don't know man. Cutting out stupid randomly right/wrong conversations would just be a net positive the franchise. You'd lose a convoluted and arbitrary dialogue system, you'd lose all the stupid lines from the demons like 'What is best in life: A) BLOOD AND GORE MURDERMURDERMURDER! B) Life is like...it's own thing man. C) THE WILL OF YHVH FREE THINKING SUCKS AMIRITE!' Basically an SMT game without the demon conversations would be the best SMT. Basically they just need to make Digital Devil Sage and add in demon party members and fusion.
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Feb 21, 2013 20:27
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Basically an SMT game without the demon conversations would be the best SMT. Basically they just need to make Digital Devil Sage and add in demon party members and fusion.
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Feb 21, 2013 20:31
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I agree that negotiation needs to be more consistent but I don't think it needs to be removed completely. It'd be loving dumb if you could flat out just recruit a demon with no strings attached or whatever.
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Feb 21, 2013 20:31
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I like the negotiation mechanic for the most part. Except for early-game SMT I/II. Stop asking for magnetite, you bastards, I need that to not die.
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Feb 21, 2013 20:37
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Basically an SMT game without the demon conversations would be the best SMT. Basically they just need to make Digital Devil Sage and add in demon party members and fusion. No, I'd really hate that. I'm fine for making it less random but half the fun of SMT is that talking is an option. I like being able to talk to the demons and negotiate with them or get items or whatever. I'd prefer if the system was improved but I'd hate it even more if it was removed.
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Feb 21, 2013 20:41
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Dorroile posted:I'm pretty sure Persona 1 and 2 had persistent preferences. I distinctly remember that they didn't; sometimes you would say a thing and they'd be happy about it, sometimes they'd be sad. For Persona 2 that is (haven't played P1 so I can't say anything about that).
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Feb 21, 2013 20:41
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Cityinthesea posted:I distinctly remember that they didn't; sometimes you would say a thing and they'd be happy about it, sometimes they'd be sad. For Persona 2 that is (haven't played P1 so I can't say anything about that). They had preferences and options that would work 9 times out of 10, but sometimes they would just flip out and react differently to keep it from being a 100% sure thing.
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Feb 21, 2013 20:43
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Dorroile posted:I'm pretty sure Persona 1 and 2 had persistent preferences. They didn't. That's the main thing with the system, it was never persistent, one answer wouldn't satisfy the same demon 100% of the time, on top of that they would take a bunch of poo poo from you and just leave at their leisure. You know what game did it right? Devil Summoner 2, in that one the demon would leave but occasionally you'd bump into them again and they would join with no fuss.
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Feb 21, 2013 20:43
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It could stand to be less "Gimme item!" but going by that trailer it doesn't like that'll happen.
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Feb 21, 2013 20:48
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Personally I like to compare the Demon Negotiation mechanic to another enduring SMT mechanic, Skill Inheritance. When Devil Survivor/Persona 4 Golden switched over to letting you actually choose which skills you could transfer over during demon fusions, only a slim minority of people cried out against it, because all they did was take a pre-existing gameplay element and cut out a layer of tedious bullshit. I see no reason why they can't do the same thing with negotiations.
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Feb 21, 2013 20:51
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There's a big difference between wanting to outright remove something that gives the game more flavor (although is hampered by RNG bullshit) and something like that.
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Feb 21, 2013 20:53
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Demon Conversations only add so much flavor after a while though. Say what you will about demon indivuality or whatever stuff people say, but when it hampers actual gameplay and makes the game more tedious, it becomes a problem.
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Feb 21, 2013 20:57
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What are some alternatives you would be interested in.
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Feb 21, 2013 20:58
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Cleretic posted:Oh come on, that's just silly. This is going back a little but the Devil Summoner Diana design is actually a reference to Artemis of Ephesus. You can read about her temple here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Artemis. She was co-opted from an earlier fertility goddess that had the "tons of breasts" design so Kaneko's version is really not that far off the mark. https://www.google.com/search?q=god...iw=1760&bih=950 I GUESS this could be 
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Feb 21, 2013 21:04
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TurnipFritter posted:What are some alternatives you would be interested in. Honestly I don't think there are any reasonable alternatives. If demon negotiation is made too easy/predictable so that there's no chance of failure it wrecks the game balance. On the other hand it can be really tedious if done improperly. (I'm looking at you Nocturne) Devil Summoner/Soul Hackers really did it best, and I don't know why they turned away from that formula. For those that aren't familiar with the system, it operated like Strange Journey's with the following exceptions: 1) There were more varied choices in conversation that didn't invariably lead to broken-off negotiations if you got things wrong 2) The greater your MC's Intelligence relative to the demon you're talking to, the better the chance of negotiations going well even if you screwed up occasionally and 3) in the "bribe" me phase, when it came up often you're given the decision of exactly what you want to give. So if you really, really want that demon in your party RIGHT NOW you can offer it a bribe far more than it's worth and be drat-near guaranteed to get it, or be more conservative and hope a lesser gift does the trick. (Sometimes even a gift of a single bullet will make demons overjoyed, you never know)
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Feb 21, 2013 21:47
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Saigyouji posted:I like the negotiation mechanic for the most part. Except for early-game SMT I/II. Stop asking for magnetite, you bastards, I need that to not die. Let me take your life force! Okay here's a Life Stone, see you later 
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Feb 21, 2013 21:56
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Huh, i thought P1/2 really did have set responses. I know they had different responses for full moons or whatever, is that what you guys were thinking about? Maybe i'm wrong though. Maaaaybe i should play through P1 again.
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Feb 21, 2013 22:01
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ImpAtom posted:No, I'd really hate that. I'm fine for making it less random but half the fun of SMT is that talking is an option. I like being able to talk to the demons and negotiate with them or get items or whatever. I'd prefer if the system was improved but I'd hate it even more if it was removed. I'm not saying take away talking to demons, just loving remove the current system. Make something that isn't completely loving stupid like it is now. Hell even P1 and P2 have better conversation systems, though P2's was needlessly complex but at least they had the sense to be consistent. Seriously, loving up one choice after getting 1 or 2 right and then losing a turn/the demon fleeing was one of the most annoying things in SJ. Hell, I'd be fine with down right antagonistic level design if the main mechanic for getting new abilities/party members wasn't just arbitrarily broken. IIRC there were even some choices I got that had no right choice. Basically, Demon Negotiations: Super Neat Idea! It's current incarnation is just bad. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Feb 21, 2013 |
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Feb 21, 2013 22:05
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Demon convos were incredibly easy in Strange Journey. The races had a usual set of responses, if you failed they were easy to try again, and if you were full up, they could join you later. It was miles easier than Nocturne, which required either luck or the lategame skills to recruit efficiently.
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Feb 21, 2013 22:38
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El Belmondo posted:Demon convos were incredibly easy in Strange Journey. The races had a usual set of responses, if you failed they were easy to try again, and if you were full up, they could join you later. It was miles easier than Nocturne, which required either luck or the lategame skills to recruit efficiently. You could get a lot of those skills really early on. You can get the Brainwash skill as early as level 15. I finished a replay of Nocturne about a month or so ago, and I never had any trouble with Demon Negotiation due to how effective some of the skills are.
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Feb 22, 2013 00:42
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I'm still playing Nocturne for the first time, having just now beaten White Rider (these Candelabrum bosses almost invariably have the same theme of 'really hard until you realize how they fight', I beat White Rider by going in with the fire-draining Magatama with an expel-immune Feng Huang flanking me, he couldn't do a thing). After this, I'm very, VERY happy with Strange Journey's system. In Nocturne it's basically just 'throw your entire inventory at them, hope you get lucky'. Strange Journey might not be entirely consistent, but neither is Nocturne, since you could give a demon everything they want and they'd still bitch out and leave. At least with Strange Journey I felt like I was actually in power over my negotiation.
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Feb 22, 2013 01:51
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Nope, they can definitely screw you in SJ and gently caress off after taking half of your life and two lifestones.
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Feb 22, 2013 01:53
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It was a bit easier to stomach in SJ since you could make a demonica thing that would smooth over one mistake, plus they had less questions, I always always succeed with that thing on.
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Feb 22, 2013 01:57
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Iceclaw posted:Nope, they can definitely screw you in SJ and gently caress off after taking half of your life and two lifestones. I liked the demon negotiation system in SJ because it meant you couldn't just walk through every battle by choosing the right options time after time.
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Feb 22, 2013 01:58
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Alteisen posted:It was a bit easier to stomach in SJ since you could make a demonica thing that would smooth over one mistake, plus they had less questions, I always always succeed with that thing on. Also, the question round comes before the 'give me poo poo' round in Strange Journey. So if you pick the wrong dialog choice and they gently caress off, you at least didn't give them three Life Stones and a thousand Macca yet.
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Feb 22, 2013 02:06
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Dorroile posted:Huh, i thought P1/2 really did have set responses. I know they had different responses for full moons or whatever, is that what you guys were thinking about? You and maybe some other people are getting mixed up, because negotiation worked kinda differently in the old Persona titles. You initiated negotiation and proceeded through the bulk of it with character-specific interactions like telling jokes, flattering the demon, etc. The way they responded to those behaviors was mostly fixed; i.e. Michelle playing a song might always interest Jack Frost. But the monsters would randomly insert questions and requests more like those of the other SMT games as well, and those things were random both in how frequently they occurred and what emotions the responses evoked. If you were lucky, a given monster would never even ask a question. If you were unlucky, you'd get a question with three answers (two of which were wrong and anger-producing) after every single player action.
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Feb 22, 2013 02:14
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I found that demon negotiation was only important early on, and that I used the compendium for everything else.
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Feb 22, 2013 02:54
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I sort of wish they'd make Negotiation more into "mini-combat" instead. Give your character social skills or something they can learn and have negotiation focus on finding and 'attacking' enemy weak points. It'd keep the talking aspect but make it more interesting. (And allow you to specialize in talking your way out of fights if you wanted.) Sorta like investing the hell out of charm in a Bioware game but less Select To Win.
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Feb 22, 2013 03:14
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ImpAtom posted:I sort of wish they'd make Negotiation more into "mini-combat" instead. Give your character social skills or something they can learn and have negotiation focus on finding and 'attacking' enemy weak points. It'd keep the talking aspect but make it more interesting. (And allow you to specialize in talking your way out of fights if you wanted.) It's really easy to see a good base for this in the Persona 1/2 stuff actually, where each character had separate character-specific means of negotiation that could easily have been turned into things you improve with use. You could even tie advancement in it into time management systems, where going to band practice or dating a girl who works at the record store makes you better at playing air guitar for demons or something! I feel this was sort of an underdeveloped part of P3/4; you had these stats like Courage and Academics, but you always started with poo poo ranks in all of them and typically tried and were able to master them by the end. It'd be interesting to make them more elective, or allow you to start with a specific personal strength in social skills or academic knowledge or something.
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Feb 22, 2013 05:49
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