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Zombies' Downfall posted:I feel this was sort of an underdeveloped part of P3/4; you had these stats like Courage and Academics, but you always started with poo poo ranks in all of them and typically tried and were able to master them by the end. It'd be interesting to make them more elective, or allow you to start with a specific personal strength in social skills or academic knowledge or something. Then they'd have to design Persona like a Role-playing game instead of a dating sim. 
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Feb 22, 2013 06:05
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El Belmondo posted:Then they'd have to design Persona like a Role-playing game instead of a dating sim. Even dating sims are more relevant and have advanced more over the years than jrpgs. Consider that all good recent Japanese rpgs have fused other genres on top of them like dating sims (the personas) or strategy (the devil survivors) or both (the new fire emblem). Atlus needs to take all the loving demon negotiation, recycled sprites, dungeon crawling, turn based battles and Law = Fascists/Chaos = Survival of Fittest garbage they have been repackaging over and over for the past twenty years with minor tweaks here and there and bury it out back once and for all. Make Persona 5 an action rpg like Mass Effect 2 and kill all of the nerds forever.
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Feb 22, 2013 06:40
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Authorman posted:Even dating sims are more relevant and have advanced more over the years than jrpgs. quote:Atlus needs to take all the loving demon negotiation, recycled sprites, dungeon crawling, turn based battles and Law = Fascists/Chaos = Survival of Fittest garbage they have been repackaging over and over for the past twenty years with minor tweaks here and there and bury it out back once and for all. This might be the dumbest thing in the entire thread, and people (myself included) have said some really loving stupid things in here.
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Feb 22, 2013 06:44
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El Belmondo posted:Then they'd have to design Persona like a Role-playing game instead of a dating sim. You've got that backwards. Except for games like Mass Effect, having tradeoffs between where you spend your time would make it more of an anime dating sim.
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Feb 22, 2013 06:47
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King of Solomon posted:This might be the dumbest thing in the entire thread, and people (myself included) have said some really loving stupid things in here. Minus the ME2 bit he's not wrong about the SMT series though?
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Feb 22, 2013 06:48
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Minus the ME2 bit he's not wrong about the SMT series though? He just suggested scrapping everything that comprises the SMT series except "takes place post-apocalypse," "is an RPG," and "has demon fusion." If you share his thoughts, you may as well stop playing the games, because you obviously don't like Shin Megami Tensei.
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Feb 22, 2013 06:52
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ImpAtom posted:I sort of wish they'd make Negotiation more into "mini-combat" instead. Give your character social skills or something they can learn and have negotiation focus on finding and 'attacking' enemy weak points. It'd keep the talking aspect but make it more interesting. (And allow you to specialize in talking your way out of fights if you wanted.) There was a bit of this in Nocturne, I think. Certain demons had skills that could help you out in negotiations, like Intimidate and Flatter and Loan. The Demi-Fiend could learn a few of them as well, but you only had eight goddamn skill slots so there's probably something more important to put there.
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Feb 22, 2013 06:52
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King of Solomon posted:He just suggested scrapping everything that comprises the SMT series except "takes place post-apocalypse," "is an RPG," and "has demon fusion." If you share his thoughts, you may as well stop playing the games, because you obviously don't like Shin Megami Tensei. I don't know man. I don't think wanting an SMT game with a better Demon Conversation mechanic, less stupid antagonists, and without recycling half their art assets makes me a terrible person who hates SMT then so be it. I mean, I love the games and the tone but I can fully admit they need to rework some poo poo and maybe try some new things here and there. Just because I don't want to play the exact same game doesn't make me some type of monster. Just calm down a bit. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Feb 22, 2013 |
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Feb 22, 2013 06:58
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:I don't know man. I don't think wanting an SMT game with a better Demon Conversation mechanic, less stupid antagonists, and without recycling half their art assets makes me a terrible person who hates SMT then so be it. He didn't say fix those mechanics, he said throw them out (in addition to throwing out turn-based combat.) I'm all in favor of fixing the mechanics and coming up with new art, but that's not what he was suggesting.
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Feb 22, 2013 07:00
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King of Solomon posted:He didn't say fix those mechanics, he said throw them out (in addition to throwing out turn-based combat.) I'm all in favor of fixing the mechanics and coming up with new art, but that's not what he was suggesting. I was just saying he's right in thinking that those things are pretty loving terrible at the moment.
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Feb 22, 2013 07:02
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King of Solomon posted:Fire Emblem has always had those mechanics. In fact, this new one is particularly good (among Fire Emblems) specifically because it improved its RPG mechanics. Not even always - the first 3 (and, unfortunately, 11 to an extent because of it) were nearly straight-up strategy games with only growth rates and mechanical progression from them to signify any RPG heritage.
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Feb 22, 2013 07:03
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King of Solomon posted:This might be the dumbest thing in the entire thread, and people (myself included) have said some really loving stupid things in here. Well don't worry you will get to have all those fun things in the next SMT, and then I will get (hopefully) all of the things I want in the next Persona. We can even have a fun experiment in a couple years and see which one sells fifteen thousand copies and which one sells several hundred thousand and actually keeps Atlus in business.  King of Solomon posted:He just suggested scrapping everything that comprises the SMT series except "takes place post-apocalypse," "is an RPG," and "has demon fusion." If you share his thoughts, you may as well stop playing the games, because you obviously don't like Shin Megami Tensei. Actually you could get rid of post-apocalypse, is an rpg and has demon fusion too for all I care. Just dump the whole rotting corpse of Shin Megami Tensei and branch out into new projects like they did with Catherine, but hopefully better than Catherine. Hell you can even liberate games like Devil Summoner and Devil Survivor and give them a fresh start without all the baggage of snes era sprites and nes era game philosophy.
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Feb 22, 2013 07:04
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:I was just saying he's right in thinking that those things are pretty loving terrible at the moment. While I wouldn't use the word terrible there, I do think they should be worked on and new art should be created, so we agree. I don't think we should just throw it all out like he suggested, because that's just dumb.
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Feb 22, 2013 07:04
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Authorman posted:Well don't worry you will get to have all those fun things in the next SMT, and then I will get (hopefully) all of the things I want in the next Persona. We can even have a fun experiment in a couple years and see which one sells fifteen thousand copies and which one sells several hundred thousand and actually keeps Atlus in business. I'd rather they just keep making both. I like Persona and I like SMT. quote:Actually you could get rid of post-apocalypse, is an rpg and has demon fusion too for all I care. Just dump the whole rotting corpse of Shin Megami Tensei and branch out into new projects like they did with Catherine, but hopefully better than Catherine. Hell you can even liberate games like Devil Summoner and Devil Survivor and give them a fresh start without all the baggage of snes era sprites and nes era game philosophy. Yeah, maybe you should just stick to Persona and Devil Summoner or something. SMT isn't for you, and that's fine. EDIT: Probably should have edited this into my previous post. Whoops.
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Feb 22, 2013 07:06
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So why is Marie so hated anyway? I haven't played Golden but I'm curious, seems the opinion of the internet at large is that she's horrible.
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Feb 22, 2013 07:07
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King of Solomon posted:While I wouldn't use the word terrible there, I do think they should be worked on and new art should be created, so we agree. I don't think we should just throw it all out like he suggested, because that's just dumb. Actually I'm totes okay with ditching the current Forces of Law and Chaos as they exist now. Law=Literally Super fascists and Chaos being brain dead STRONG=GOOD fuckers only really needs to be thrown out. Make your Chaos characters as interesting as Lucifer bare minimum, give them interests outside of "Crush dudes, get exp.". Maybe throw in some Law dudes who aren't completely loving bonkers to give them a bit of sympathy. Currently the only reason to go Law End in any SMT game is just so you can fight the more interesting bosses. I just want some villains with some personality in my mainline SMT. Nocturne almost got it right. DDS 2 got it even closer to right. Hopefully 4 will come out and wow me with it's brilliant cast.
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Feb 22, 2013 07:09
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:We do not agree. Law=Literally Super fascists and Chaos being brain dead STRONG=GOOD fuckers only really needs to be thrown out. Make your Chaos characters as interesting as Lucifer bare minimum, give them interests outside of "Crush dudes, get exp.". Maybe throw in some Law dudes who aren't completely loving bonkers to give them a bit of sympathy. Currently the only reason to go Law End in any SMT game is just so you can fight the more interesting bosses. I dunno, my stance there is more that they should take some cues from Devil Survivor and Nocturne and just throw in more options (ideally while giving enough time to develop them well. Who knows, maybe they'll half-rear end it.)
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Feb 22, 2013 07:10
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quote:Actually you could get rid of post-apocalypse, is an rpg and has demon fusion too for all I care. Just dump the whole rotting corpse of Shin Megami Tensei I want to know what makes you think SMT is a "rotting corpse."
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Feb 22, 2013 07:12
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Pomp posted:I want to know what makes you think SMT is a "rotting corpse." Clearly that would be SMT not being Mass Effect. Now that is a brand brimming with life and a genuinely unique identity.
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Feb 22, 2013 07:21
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Nocturne would have been infinitely improved if we had the ability to right hook every single whiny insufferable teenager waxing philosophic about their ideal world.
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Feb 22, 2013 07:22
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Pomp posted:I want to know what makes you think SMT is a "rotting corpse." How many copies of SMT were sold on consoles this last generaton? There you have it, undeniable proof that the series is dead and buried and rotting.
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Feb 22, 2013 07:23
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Policenaut posted:Nocturne would have been infinitely improved if we had the ability to right hook every single whiny insufferable teenager waxing philosophic about their ideal world. Never stop punching Chiaki.
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Feb 22, 2013 07:24
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King of Solomon posted:Yeah, maybe you should just stick to Persona and Devil Summoner or something. SMT isn't for you, and that's fine. I do stick to those games, and so do most people who enjoy Atlus games. I'd just like Atlus to stop wasting resources producing bad games for people who are afraid of change and put out a new Digital Devil Saga in the Persona 4 battle engine or something equally as cool. Pureauthor posted:How many copies of SMT were sold on consoles this last generaton? There you have it, undeniable proof that the series is dead and buried and rotting. Two mainline games in the past nineteen years and all of the good spinoff series are weighed down by recycled art, plot, and game design philosophies. I mean if Atlus wants to continue using Persona to subsidize what are essentially boutique games for the ten thousand people in the world who actually care about YHVH being an rear end in a top hat and 1st person dungeon crawling, that's up to them I guess.
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Feb 22, 2013 07:32
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Never stop punching Chiaki. Well even in her path you punch the poo poo out of her anyway.
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Feb 22, 2013 07:36
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Policenaut posted:Nocturne would have been infinitely improved if we had the ability to right hook every single whiny insufferable teenager waxing philosophic about their ideal world. Eh, I've given Chiaki a bit of a pass. Partly because she put forward her plan right after Hikawa's other, much stupider plan, and partly because she's the first non-Hikawa person who bothers even thinking about using the Vortex World properly. I don't know what the guy in the hat's gonna do, but I know it's gonna be dumb as hell. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 08:07 on Feb 22, 2013 |
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Feb 22, 2013 08:04
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Cleretic posted:Eh, I've given Chiaki a bit of a pass. Partly because she put forward her plan right after Hikawa's other, much stupider plan, and partly because she's the first non-Hikawa person who bothers even thinking about using the Vortex World properly. Whatever you imagined Isamu would come up with is probably less dumb than what he actually says.
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Feb 22, 2013 08:16
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01011001 posted:Whatever you imagined Isamu would come up with is probably less dumb than what he actually says. My guess so far is, since Chiaki's was generally pretty close to the Chaos party line, Isamu's going to be a brutal socialist of some sort, somewhat in line with traditional Law views. But now that you've siad that I'm assuming we're gonna be flying into something dumb, so... I'm gonna put my money on 'Silly Hats Only'.
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Feb 22, 2013 08:20
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Which was the kid who wanted to make some bizarro everyone-is-alone world and their final boss form was like a green space whale? Because I vaguely remember enjoying beating the poo poo out of him in True Demon ending.
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Feb 22, 2013 08:22
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Policenaut posted:Which was the kid who wanted to make some bizarro everyone-is-alone world and their final boss form was like a green space whale? Because I vaguely remember enjoying beating the poo poo out of him in True Demon ending. That'd be Isamu. Selfish little poo poo doesn't even thank you when you save his rear end from Thor.
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Feb 22, 2013 08:24
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Nathander posted:That'd be Isamu. He has the gall to complain that you take too long when you save him from Mizuchi in that one prison later on as well.
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Feb 22, 2013 08:25
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Authorman posted:I do stick to those games, and so do most people who enjoy Atlus games. I'd just like Atlus to stop wasting resources producing bad games for people who are afraid of change and put out a new Digital Devil Saga in the Persona 4 battle engine or something equally as cool. I too wish they'd stop wasting all those resources producing a new game every ten years. Policenaut posted:Nocturne would have been infinitely improved if we had the ability to right hook every single whiny insufferable teenager waxing philosophic about their ideal world. There are only two though, and not letting the player punch adults means that the teacher's bullshit goes unchecked.
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Feb 22, 2013 08:42
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And his space whale form is a stupid gimmick fight if you don't have pierce.
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Feb 22, 2013 08:43
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Alteisen posted:So why is Marie so hated anyway?
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Feb 22, 2013 13:09
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Pretty much what the above dude said combined with the fact that she has what I consider to be one of the dumbest added plot twists of Golden, (Big P4G Endgame Spoilers) she's Izanami. I mean they got everything so right with Adachi's S. Link and then they make Marie like that episode of Clone High with Ponce de Leon, although unironically.
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Feb 22, 2013 13:13
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Authorman posted:I do stick to those games, and so do most people who enjoy Atlus games. I'd just like Atlus to stop wasting resources producing bad games for people who are afraid of change and put out a new Digital Devil Saga in the Persona 4 battle engine or something equally as cool. Now I know you're messing with me.  Alteisen posted:So why is Marie so hated anyway? Because she's probably the worst character writing that Atlus has had in the entire series, from generic anime Tsundere style interaction with your protagonist, to stupid interjection straight into the heart of your cast acting like your friend, to being a necessary social link to get the new content in Golden, and a character reveal that feels like a DeviantArt character sheet. Oh, and don't forget her marvelous poetry.
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Feb 22, 2013 13:14
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Regarding SMT, it isn't like the last mainline game wasn't considered one of the best games in the whole franchise. So obviously we must rip everything up and turn it into a BioWare game. We need reform, not a revolution.
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Feb 22, 2013 14:23
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They also didn't voice half her lines, so you kept hearing "Hey" and "Fine" from her until you got sick of it. I didn't mind her SLs because it got the gang together and hanging out with that pack of weirdos alongside some innocent third party is hilarious. Like with the tutoring student's birthday.
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Feb 22, 2013 14:24
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I really cringe hearing a 'let's Mass Effect 2 this series!', because Mass Effect 2 took everything I enjoyed about Mass Effect 1, threw it away, and made a game by combining what's left with ideas from other games that I hate (that is, I hate the ideas. But I probably hate the games too). So to me, 'pulling a Mass Effect 2' means 'do literally all the worst things you could possibly do'. Just because some features are a bit poorly executed, doesn't mean you have to throw the whole thing out and start again. Then again, I'm the person who liked Mass Effect's overly complicated character progression, equipment system (not the inventory system though, I'm not stupid), and the Mako and planet exploration segments. So maybe it's actually a good idea to specifically spite me when designing your game. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 14:40 on Feb 22, 2013 |
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Feb 22, 2013 14:36
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Zombies' Downfall posted:It's really easy to see a good base for this in the Persona 1/2 stuff actually, where each character had separate character-specific means of negotiation that could easily have been turned into things you improve with use. You could even tie advancement in it into time management systems, where going to band practice or dating a girl who works at the record store makes you better at playing air guitar for demons or something! I kinda like the thought of mixing this with the Alpha Protocol conversation system- general attitudes rather than specific responses, and lasting for a decent amount of time. You could double the size of the wheel and have a couple basic approaches, eg Friendly, Professional, Passionate, Aggressive, Subservient, Curious, and Joking, with a context-sensitive one at the bottom. Then you could rank how much each demon likes the various response types (with some randomness and contextual shift if we want to keep it changeable) where people can develop patterns that make sense and work (High-level demons almost always are cool with Subservient, Angels like Professional and Curious people, Brutes like Aggression, etc.) Then mix in skill tests and a more gamy approach to the actual negotiation, and it might actually become a fun minigame. It also needs to be more forgiving. Maybe bad choices could close off things you can get, but it takes a couple to actually get them to leave or attack you. And pissing them off might give benefits in the battle- they start off with an auto-debuff on them from the conversation. EDIT: A fringe benefit is that they can skip the obfuscation and label alignment conversations with Law, Chaos, and Neutral.
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Feb 22, 2013 15:03
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El Belmondo posted:she's probably the worst character writing that Atlus has had in the entire series, from generic anime Tsundere style interaction with your protagonist, to stupid interjection straight into the heart of your cast acting like your friend, to being a necessary social link to get the new content in Golden, and a character reveal that feels like a DeviantArt character sheet. Well, at least we can be safe in assuming she's not coming back. She's not in Arena, and that's the canon sequel, so...
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Feb 22, 2013 16:36
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