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So, stupid civilian question here.. I know it's gizmodo and all, and they often say stupid things, but is there any truth to what this article says? The video of it flying clearly shows the silhouette of it against the sky (though, I guess that might be fake-able), but it does seem that the nose cone is small and the instrument panel looks kinda funky as well. Thoughts from those who'd know much, much better than me would be appreciated. http://gizmodo.com/5981525/why-irans-new-indigenous-stealth-fighter-will-never-get-off-the-ground I'm asking mostly out of curiosity, not because of any OMG IRAN WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE or anything stupid like that.
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Feb 4, 2013 23:50
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completely bullshit, check the Iran/Korea thread for more info
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Feb 4, 2013 23:51
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windshipper posted:So, stupid civilian question here.. Check the Aeronautical Insanity thread in AI as well.
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Feb 5, 2013 01:43
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I guess this is more of a question for Navy personnel than anyone else, but how big of a deal is it for a ship to illuminate another ship or aircraft with its fire-control radar? The reason I ask is that the Japanese defense minister held a press conference today to complain about a Chinese frigate doing this to a JMSDF destroyer and helicopter, and I am wondering how aggressive an action this actually is. I get that the FCR is pretty much only used for targeting, but is doing something like this just considered kind of obnoxious, or do people start making GBS threads bricks when it happens?
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Feb 5, 2013 15:35
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With airplanes, it can range from "stop pushing buttons, new guy" to "Oh gently caress!" depending on who is doing it and under what circumstances. Edit: Yeah with an unfriendly nation doing the targeting it's a big loving deal. Godholio fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Feb 5, 2013 |
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Feb 5, 2013 16:34
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I'm sure Japan is extra pissed because it was a Chinese vessel that did it.
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Feb 5, 2013 16:37
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If I remember all my Law of Armed Conflict briefs jamming can be construed as a hostile act. But its a grey area because determining intent is kind of tough in that case.
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Feb 5, 2013 16:41
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vulturesrow posted:If I remember all my Law of Armed Conflict briefs jamming can be construed as a hostile act. But its a grey area because determining intent is kind of tough in that case. This is true. But illuminating with an FCR is also a hostile act. "The right of self defense is never denied" etc etc.
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Feb 5, 2013 16:42
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It's called a "buddy spike" when it's a friendly unit doing the locking. Mostly for training purposes or when IFF isn't responding. However, a Chinese warship is most definitely not "friendly." Locking an FCR is absolutely considered "threatening posture" at a minimum, if not an outright belligerent act.
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Feb 5, 2013 18:02
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During the Cold War (at least in the later portions, '70s and '80s time frame...all bets were off in the '50s and early '60s) as a general rule both the U.S. and Soviets generally avoided illuminating each other's planes with a FCR, especially in instances like intercepting bomber aircraft penetrating the ADIZ or escorting them away from a Carrier Battle Group, because it was considered a rather hostile act and something that could cause a situation to escalate quickly, something neither side really wanted. So while this isn't a sign that hostilities are imminent, it is definitely a significant escalation on China's part and not a good sign for that continuing situation.
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Feb 6, 2013 05:01
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Thanks for the input everyone. Here is a link with more details if anyone is interested: Japan says Chinese warships locked weapons radar on MSDF
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Feb 6, 2013 05:41
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iyaayas01 posted:So while this isn't a sign that hostilities are imminent, it is definitely a significant escalation on China's part and not a good sign for that continuing situation. Illumination with a fighter's FCR is almost always considered a hostile act. I say almost, but as I sit here I can't remember reading any ROE where a spike by an aircraft in firing position isn't. Edit: This is a bit different from the ship situation, though.
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Feb 6, 2013 06:27
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Godholio posted:Illumination with a fighter's FCR is almost always considered a hostile act. I say almost, but as I sit here I can't remember reading any ROE where a spike by an aircraft in firing position isn't. Well there's that, and the larger point, which is that let's be honest, "hostile act" != shooting war. I'm not trying to downplay it, because it certainly is a serious incident, and honestly probably much more serious than the play it is getting in the news, because this is a (dashed) red line that China just crossed. My only point with saying that hostilities aren't imminent is that I could see someone blowing this way out of proportion and making it sound like that the Chinese ship was literally 2 seconds away from blowing the Japanese helicopter out of the sky, which (probably, hopefully) wasn't the case, even if technically speaking they were one step away from opening fire.
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Feb 6, 2013 07:03
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I've been fighting the VA for a while now over my disabilities claim, and they finally did something. However, all that something covered was my hearing loss, not my other poo poo (back/knee problems, related to humping excess crap for Uncle Sam's Misguided Children for four years). I'm going to dispute the back and knee problems, but am content with the ruling on my hearing, since I NEED a drat hearing aid already. They just deposited my backpay for the hearing loss. Can I contest just portions of my claim, or do I have to contest it as a whole? And, if I can contest partially, is there any chance the VA will yank that money back, or is it mine?
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Feb 6, 2013 20:48
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jealco posted:I've been fighting the VA for a while now over my disabilities claim, and they finally did something. However, all that something covered was my hearing loss, not my other poo poo (back/knee problems, related to humping excess crap for Uncle Sam's Misguided Children for four years). I'm going to dispute the back and knee problems, but am content with the ruling on my hearing, since I NEED a drat hearing aid already. They just deposited my backpay for the hearing loss. They won't be able to retroactively lower your disability rating and recoup the difference, if that's what you're worried about. Also, yes you can contest individual points- but that doesn't prevent them from reviewing everything in full. I'll give you a rather hosed (for various reasons depending on how you view the world) example: Guy in my group is rated 100% Disabled by the VA, Vietnam vet. His name is Bill for the sake of this story. His rating was expedited and adjudicated under the agent orange exposure program. This is not too dissimilar from our OIF/OEF vets program that we have now. Basically your claim gets sent through the system faster, and your adjudication is a lot more favorable based on a greater assumption of service connection. Well bill had Diabetes, Vision problems, Neuropathy, A foot amputation, Heart problems, lung problems, and a bunch of skin issues. He had been rated 100% for a few years. Bill had some hearing loss. Just enough to require a hearing aid I guess, but enough that he felt that the VA should compensate him for it, or at least accept responsibility for it. Now mind you, his hearing problems were 100% covered by the VA anyway because he was 100% disabled. Myself and a VA rep told Bill multiple times that he doesn't need to do it, and he doesn't want to do it because the second he wants his C&P rating changed for anything, the whole casefile is subject to review. Now this generally isn't a problem, because even expedited claims under the Agent Orange Exposure and OIF/OEF vets get plenty of scrutiny and generally don't have any over-compensated claims or obvious errors. Bill says gently caress us, the government hosed up his hearing when he was a GODDAMNED GREEN BERET and files for it anyway. Bill now has a disability rating of 10%, and is now also homeless living with a friend. Why? Because when bills file went under review, the folks in Rhode Island realized that his original Agent Orange Exposure claim had never really looked into whether or not he had been deployed to Vietnam for the required period of time in the right time frame. Low and behold, there is 0 evidence of him being deployed to Vietnam- or deployed at all. His records show his time in Special Forces, and they showed that he was given a few decorations and what not. But there is no reference to Vietnam anywhere. I don't doubt bill when he says he went to Vietnam, I personally doubt his timeline he claims, but that's all beside the point. The point is, the evidence in his files didn't show enough to say he was in Vietnam at the right time and for the right amount of time for the Agent Orange Exposure claims. Badabing, badaboom- he loses all his C&P ratings- but he gets 10% for his hosed up hearing, and now he has a sweet new hearing aid to help him listen to his terrible sad lonely homeless world with. All because he was a loving idiot and wanted to stick it to Obama & Co. for his hearing loss. (Don't ask me how Obama always came up with him, you know this type of person, you know what I'm talking about.) The ruling was upheld in court and everything. He wasn't required to backpay because it was from a mistake that was Clearly and Unmistakably the VA's fault. I saw this happen with my own two eyes. Saw a grown rear end old man crying because he was losing everything he had. And there was poo poo all myself or the VA rep could do for him other than say "We told you so, Bill." So I told you that to tell you this: Once you've got the maximum benefit you think you can get from the VA reasonably-- be very judicious with what you go to claim in the future. You can and will get downgraded if the evidence supports it. The only silver lining is that once you've been rated 100% disabled for 10 years, your benefit may not be reduced. In your case it's totally worth contesting and trying to get your benefit increased. Once you've realistically achieved the appropriate maximum benefit though, I highly recommend that you act extremely judiciously when applying for anymore upgrades.
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Feb 6, 2013 22:27
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Can we get a stickied guide to all the CURE posters?
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Feb 7, 2013 00:48
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@GAS CURES KIKES - I'm not bent on anything extreme. Hell, I'll settle for them just recognizing the problems for future treatment. I'm less concerned about my percentage of disability than I am with them admitting I have a problem in the first place. Thanks for the info.
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Feb 7, 2013 03:35
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jealco posted:@GAS CURES KIKES - I'm not bent on anything extreme. Hell, I'll settle for them just recognizing the problems for future treatment. I'm less concerned about my percentage of disability than I am with them admitting I have a problem in the first place. Did they award you NO rating for the issues, or just 0% ratings? Because that's a big difference-- 0% ratings at least mean you get treatment in the future for them at no cost. The problem with C&P exams for joint problems or back problems is that they're very exact and quantified to how your problems are at the time of the exam. If you're having a "good" day with your knees, back, or whatever and you are able to bend more than usual, your C&P exam is going to only show that.. well you can bend 35 degrees, even though on average you may only be able to go 15 degrees without pain on most days. There are a few ways to make sure you get better C&P examination / narratives - and none of them involve shamming or scamming the government (Though, to be entirely honest- enough people do sham/scam that the GP that is doing your exam is going to be suspicious). 1) MRI / CT scans with written narratives from a radiologist noting abnormalities in your joints / bones / whatever. It's extremely helpful to your cause to be able to get an MRI/CT with a radiologist saying your poo poo is hosed up. Doesn't have to be the VA doc's, just someone. A straight up X-ray is often not sensitive enough to really expound upon what could be going wrong with you-- so get an MRI / CT and a competent interpretation of the scans to explain what is abnormal with you. 2) Medical records showing past treatment / complaints about what you're seeking C&P for. These don't necessarily have to be from the military.. But it will help your case immensely if you at least have medical records from your time in the military showing that the problem at least began back then. If you don't, but they awarded you a 0% rating, its ok because there is now an assumed service connection with the disability, but they didn't feel that at the time of your C&P claim that it warranted a rating. If they completely denied the claim, you've got more hills to climb.. Regardless-- continue to seek care for your problems, and get everything documented and hang on to those records. Keep a diary / log of pain levels and interference with daily activities. Remember that nothing has actually happened as far as the VA is concerned unless it's documented in some form or another-- if your trying to get something covered via C&P in a vacuum without a good deal of documentation you're completely at the mercy of whatever your C&P examiner observes/reports for that day you get examined. 3) Work with your C&P examiner. Be honest and upfront with him-- be able to tell him when the problem started, why you think it started, and exactly how it is affecting you (Can't do X, Y, Z.. taking X ammount of pills for pain, depressed bc of injury, gaining weight because of inability to exercise, etc) at all times. If you are having a "good" day with your pain and problems, explain that to him upfront- and say outright that you are having a good day with the problem-- but that those good days are about X out of 30 days in a month, and be able to quantify the difference between a bad day, and a good day- and ask him to please note that on his narrative. Do not try and be the least bit macho and push through even the slightest pain when he is manipulating your joints-- the second it gets uncomfortable say so right then. And make sure he is measuring your movement with the little device that shows how many degrees you can move. IF HE IS NOT DOING SO, REQUEST THAT HE PLEASE DO SO, AND IF HE DOESN'T IMMEDIATELY WRITE A MEMO AND GO DIRECTLY TO THE PATIENT ADVOCATE FROM YOUR C&P EXAM TO COMPLAIN. Don't worry about pissing your doctor off, there is only the absolute most remote chance he'd be the doctor to take care of you once you're using VA care-- and if he is, you can request a different one. 4) Try to get the problem fixed, and if/when the Rehab, Phys Therapy, Surgery, whatever doesn't work it bolsters your case-- get everything documented. If you're lucky, the problem will at least temporarily be resolved, and if it gets worse down the line you can apply for increased C&P over the worsened condition (assuming they already gave you 0% not an outright denial) and you'll have an even stronger case. 5) Be ready to get a lawyer and go to the veterans appeals court if you really feel like you're not getting the proper level of compensation you deserve. The court cases have high rates of success, but naturally-- lawyers can cost money. There are some pro-bono types out there, I encourage you to look for them should you need to go down this path. The alternative to the above advice is to just sham/scam, which a lot of people do, and is very unfortunate. It's easy to fake pain on a C&P exam for joint problems or whatever.. but the doctors generally know when you're doing it- they may not be able to do much about it, but they can certainly write a less than enthusiastic narrative for you and still be within their lane of discretion. Working with your doctor and being honest/open and having the doctor work as your advocate vice working as a gate keeper is a much better route in my humble opinion- as a lot of the sham/scam types don't get what they want on the initial claim, but later get their awards via the appeals process. I see a lot of this working with guys who are obviously and openly shamming/scamming. As a complete aside- I don't know anything about you, or how your service went or your life now or in the past. One thing I do know from the studies and research that have gone into this-- you are much more likely than the average person to have some form of a mental health problem. You might not even realize it, or you might not even have one. I highly encourage you to take stock of your mental health in an honest and open manner, and try and see if you have anything going on that you might need to have someone professional look into- if for no other reason than not letting something that is small / not high impact now from turning into a problem down the road. I'm not saying go claim something immediately on a C&P exam or something, I'm saying take stock on a personal level, and take advantage of the current free mental health care with the VA if you've got something going on now even if it's not a huge deal-- just to make sure that it never becomes a huge deal. The "flash to bang" for mental health problems can be high variable, but intervention works a lot better if it's attacked while it's still something that isn't heavily affecting your activities of daily living and quality of life. Once it's grown it becomes a lot harder to deal with and can be more problematic. Again, not saying you got anything going on-- just encouraging you as a veteran to take an honest stock and survey of yourself and prevent bad things from happening. Anything else you need help with lemme know. I have PM's, but unless you want to keep your situation completely private I think it helps out the community as a whole if we post these kinds of discussions publicly so others can learn from our experiences. There is also the vets benefit thread that I watch pretty closely to. Best of luck, and like I said-- if you need help with anything lemme know.
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Feb 7, 2013 15:16
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We need that Military medicine thread again and that in the op
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Feb 7, 2013 16:20
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Christoff posted:We need that Military medicine thread again and that in the op It's my birthday.. My wife worked a night shift though, so I'm going to be up all day with nothing to do-- so I'm going to write a long, detailed, refrenced thread RE: VA C&P system. If vas likes it we could maybe even talk him into stickying it.
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Feb 7, 2013 16:29
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Didn't we have a VA/disability thread already a while ago?
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Feb 7, 2013 16:34
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GAS CURES KIKES posted:It's my birthday.. My wife worked a night shift though, so I'm going to be up all day with nothing to do-- so I'm going to write a long, detailed, refrenced thread RE: VA C&P system. This would be relevant to my interests.
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Feb 7, 2013 18:05
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What's the deal with sales tax when an online purchase is being shipped to a military installation? I though it wasn't applicable.
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Feb 19, 2013 00:13
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Ignore amazon and their bullshit. Everyone I know that shops on amazon got those emails, and we're all ignoring them. If it's their responsibility to collect the tax, it's not your fault they hosed up. Besides, who's going to bother taking the time to find the required form for that poo poo anyhow? Especially if you live in a state without an income tax, thus nothing to file anyhow. This is probably bad advice, but seriously, they're own goddamn fault for not collecting it in the first place. Assuming you're talking about why you're charged (online) sales tax while living on a military base, well, that military base is in a state that charges sales tax, so you're paying. APO AP/AE addresses shouldn't be taxed though. CRUSTY MINGE fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Feb 19, 2013 |
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Feb 19, 2013 00:19
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Anybody want to chime in on how awesome/lovely Osan is? Army POV would be nice but just a rundown on the area would be awesome.
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Feb 24, 2013 01:54
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You are not at Casey / Hovey. You are Yongsan or south. It is a veritable paradise compared to the north. gently caress you.
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Feb 24, 2013 02:04
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Say hi to Songtan Sally for me
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Feb 24, 2013 02:17
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Could be Camp Jackson. i don't even think its open anymore but camp jackson 
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Feb 24, 2013 03:14
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not caring here posted:You are not at Casey / Hovey. You are Yongsan or south. It is a veritable paradise compared to the north. Pretty much what I'd figured. All the dudes I know shipping to Casey, once they found out my orders changed from Hood to Osan, won't talk to me anymore.
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Feb 24, 2013 03:33
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There is a good reason for this. Let me explain. Scenario 1: Walking down the street on post, didn't see some random CPT and thus don't salute him. Casey: CPT flips his poo poo, goes on rant about how NK could come across the border at any time and how discipline blah blah blah. SGM jumps out from the bushes as he's got nothing better to do and jumps in. Down South: CPT is most likely a doctor, or loves life in this pretend Army post and doesn't give a gently caress. SGM is probably out having a 3 hour liquid lunch. Scenario 2: You put in a pass to go to Jeju Island, as you heard it's really nice. Casey: CO denies your pass, something about how only 2 people at a time can be on pass at any given time, and one of them is him and the other is 1SG. As it is every weekend. Add to that, you are now going out to the field for 45 days for a field exercise that should be done in 10 days, but everyone is a colossal gently caress up. By the way, it's -25 out and you can't wear your beanie or your big grey marshmallow suit because hooah. Down South: CO questions whether or not you are actually his soldier, why the gently caress are you bother him with paperwork if you don't want a 4 day, and then asks if you need a lift because he's got the heads up on some sweet brothel 5 minutes from the beach. Scenario 3: It's motor pool Monday. Casey: It don't matter if it's Monday, you are down the motor pool every day, even if nothing needs to be done because it's cold and the battalion commander knows nothing about vehicles and demands that they be cold started for 30 minutes at a time, 3 times a day so the batteries don't go flat. You will also be there until 2100 with nothing to do and you were already alerted at 0200 that same morning and have been at work every since. Down South: LOL, entire post has 2 HMMWVs and a blackhawk and none of them belong to your unit. In fact, no one is sure who the HMMWVs belong to. gently caress it, it's 9:30, time for lunch. Grab a taxi to Seoul and we'll chill there and come back at 2pm, and then go home at 2:30. Scenario 4: You've slipped over and sprained your wrist, maybe broken it. Casey: You need to get 2 people to sign your poo poo, both of whom are on pass and won't turn up until 0900. Hooah demands that you do pushups all morning for PT on your possibly broken wrist. When you finally get to sick call, you sit there until lunch time because there's 1 PA in the entire battalion. He has a quick look, gives you motrin and an ACE bandage and tells you to come back in a week if it still hurts. No you can't have a profile because it looks lovely in the BN COs reports. Oh, and then the BN CO makes inquiries as to how you fell over, because if it was ice and you weren't wearing some stupid issue ice chains for your boots which make your boots like ice skates, then he wants to article 15 you for... hooah. Down South: PT didn't happen because no one really turned up, and it was pretty cold out. You wouldn't know because you stopped at Starbucks on the way to sick call and immediately got checked out at the hospital. X-ray, MRI, whatever you needed to make sure nothing was wrong. You got a fistful of vicodin and a week off work to make sure you are okay. Your wrist feels better by the end of the day so you head to the mountains for a mid-week ski trip. You are lucky that your former friends didn't knife you.
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Feb 24, 2013 03:53
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Does 2ID still do the Warrior Standard or has 10 years of war actually cleared out some of that bullshit? Warrior Standard was 100% mandated TA-50 configurations with absolutely, positively zero wiggle room. I got yelled at before because my canteen was about two inches off on my pistol belt.
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Feb 24, 2013 04:02
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Still there. loving sucks if you're like me and have a ridiculously huge neck and head and have to wear body armor with a yoke and a helmet whilst doing rifle qual. Or if you are left handed and are forced to have your IFAK on your left shoulder. No you can't change it, I don't care if NK ACTUALLY attacked and you couldn't hit the broad side of a barn you will wear that loving IFAK on your left shoulder. gently caress 2ID. Full of retards trying to out retard each other to see who is the biggest retard and can be crowned king of the retards.
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Feb 24, 2013 04:18
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Actually, it's wildly known that 2ID sucks huuuuuge wang. For example, I broke my both bones in my forearm and put lots of little fractures in my wrist after a bad spill. It took 10 days to get down to Yongsan to actually have my poo poo put in a cast. Whilst I was there, poo poo was magical, and I hated it because it reminded me of how loving unnecessarily lovely up north is. I just wanted to burn the motherfucker to the ground. Anyway, I've got this Korean dude who's putting the cast on my arm, and we're having a friendly old chat with the other docs in the room, having some good time laughs. They ask me if I'm with the aviation unit here, and I say "ha! No, I drive a tank at Casey". And they just shut up, and it's like I've said I hosed all their grandmothers in a dusty, dry, geriatric orgy. Then the Korean guy says, ever so solemnly, "... we call that place North Korea." No one laughed.  So when I go to see the ortho doc, he warns me about my unit will probably try and get me to do stuff that will gently caress my arm up worse, and to not do it, and call him up immediately if any one tries. Then we go see the COL at rehab and he says "Oh, I see you're with 2ID. They've got a long standing practice of abusing their soldiers, so here's my card with my number on it, you call me up straight away and I will have someone torn a new rear end in a top hat in about 15 minutes, okay?" I loved Yongsan on the few occasions I got to be there, it's just so chill and awesome but I couldn't even enjoy myself because of the thought of how much dick Casey sucked and how I'd be going back there eventually.
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Feb 24, 2013 04:30
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^^^Now I feel bad for bitching about pouch placement. There's no good place to put an IFAK. My BDE mandates lower left portion of the body armor on the back. Love having kit jabbing into my back in vehicles. EBB fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Feb 24, 2013 |
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Feb 24, 2013 04:30
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Standardized gear setups are the dumbest thing ever. It always makes me mad when I hear that someone has to put their poo poo in a certain spot. Its not like its hard to find someone's IFAK because it could only be in one of two places: on front or on back.
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Feb 24, 2013 05:12
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Yeah, I understand the need for at least some standardization in that x equipment has to be worn. Exactly where on the person, however, should not be mandated unless there is a loving good reason other than "because I said so". I've seen dudes lose rank because their NVGs were tied off on the "wrong" side of their LBV and the wrong person noticed. And there will always be someone around to notice that, because 2ID spends like 5 months in the field a year, which consists almost entirely of sitting in the loving woods in your vehicle the entire time.
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Feb 24, 2013 05:37
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Vasudus posted:Yeah, I understand the need for at least some standardization in that x equipment has to be worn. Exactly where on the person, however, should not be mandated unless there is a loving good reason other than "because I said so". I've seen dudes lose rank because their NVGs were tied off on the "wrong" side of their LBV and the wrong person noticed. And there will always be someone around to notice that, because 2ID spends like 5 months in the field a year, which consists almost entirely of sitting in the loving woods in your vehicle the entire time. Yes, of course there is a standard loadout that everyone has to have somewhere on their body. So long as LCpl fucknuts has all of his gear and he doesn't have his mag pouches on his back or something retarded, then it really doesn't matter.
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Feb 24, 2013 05:52
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I'm on Hovey with 2ID right now and yes, poo poo is still retarded and not changing. I'm really glad I'm out of Korea soon. I was supposed to be in the field while I was clearing but someone was kind enough to tell the CO to gently caress right off. I'm a little sad that CSM Eyer is gone though, the policies were dumb but I liked his accent and his in-processing brief.
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Feb 24, 2013 08:44
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I joined the USAF in 2008. After suffering a panic attack 18 days into basic training, it was deemed that I was given an ELS, and 2 weeks later I was discharged and flown back home. I've done my time in therapy, was put on proper medication to handle my problem, and 5 years later, going back into the military is something I'd like to be able to look into again. Because I was given an ELS, does that mean I can no longer pursuit any sort of career in the military?
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Feb 24, 2013 12:15
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snowcrafta posted:I joined the USAF in 2008. After suffering a panic attack 18 days into basic training, it was deemed that I was given an ELS, and 2 weeks later I was discharged and flown back home. I'm not saying it's impossible, because nothing is impossible really.. but.. Give the gently caress up on this idea. It's just not gonna happen. I'm dead serious, go to college and get a job in the real world or something, because you do not have a future with the military.. except maybe if you go in as a civilian, or suck the right dick at certain guard units. And even that is all extremely unlikely. Also, honestly, you have no business in the military. I sympathize with the psychiatric stuff, I really do, but if 18 days of USAF basic training was a little to much for you, even 5 years ago pre meds and therapy, you seriously should be nowhere near wearing a uniform. I'm not trying to psych shame you or anything, I take the pills to keep me from going crazy myself, I'm just being honest with you. It's 1) Never gonna happen and 2) Should never happen. Best of luck otherwise, though.
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Feb 24, 2013 12:59
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