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That's kind of a lazy excuse. There are western academics who have devoted their lives to the study of China and Chinese concepts. If you're going to play apologist, racism/nationalism is not a good road to take. And no the corruption is not fair at all, unless you're setting the bar for fairness so low that it becomes meaningless. Edit: you're also kind of taking a huge dump on Confucius's grave to use him as an apology for corruption. Like 250% of the entire point of all of Confucian philosophy ever was that governors have to be responsible, effective and moral. Deep State of Mind fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Mar 1, 2013 |
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Mar 1, 2013 18:32
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whatever7 posted:When you use "corruption level" to measure the Chinese system, it look really bad. I think what it really is, its "say one thing and do another thing", or "unspoken rules of game you have to follow". This is entirely derived from Confucianism, an Chinese original concept. It would be nice if there is a similar word to corruption but more neutral to describe the Chinese system. I think the rules of the game is still fair to vast majority to the participating players, you just don't get a manual of the game when you start playing. There need to be a game theory study on Guanxi. Uhh no there's a Chinese term for it and Chinese people use it all the time to complain about the same thing:腐敗 "You don't understand our unique culture" should be the Godwin's law of internet arguments about China, or anywhere in Asia really. Humans are humans
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Mar 1, 2013 19:47
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GuestBob posted:You guys know that we aren't just talking about backscratching millionaires and government kickbacks right? We are talking about disabled people being locked in mental institutions for petitioning the government and junior officials forcing women to have live birth abortions because they can't pay a fine. Let alone the thousands of urban parents who pay massive kickbacks to the best schools in their cities to take their kids (admission to the best public high school in Beijing costs something like Y100k in "fees" which do not fall under the remit of the permitted fees as stipulated by marketizing MoE reforms). Only one of the things I listed above is completely legally indefensible under Chinese law, can you guess which one?
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Mar 1, 2013 20:34
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[quote="hitension" post="413018034"] Uhh no there's a Chinese term for it and Chinese people use it all the time to complain about the same thing:腐敗 "You don't understand our unique culture" should be the Godwin's law of internet arguments about China, or anywhere in Asia really. Humans are humans [/q] I think when people talk about "fubai" or "tanguan" they are usually talking about people who have gone too far in some way. If you want to talk about corruption permeating China top to bottom, though, it would probably include all kinds of little cheats, shortcuts, and gifts that a lot of people in China probably wouldn't think twice about, so long as they were the ones benefitting.
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Mar 1, 2013 21:30
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The funniest thing is I was just reading a history by a japanese scholar about WWII, and how Japan screwed its people so badly via propaganda. http://www.amazon.com/Pacific-War-1931-1945-Saburo-Ienaga/dp/0394734963 And there's this whole section about how the Chinese Communists were the most honest, respectful and democratic opponents, to the point where you could figure out who was the Communist in a prison camp by checking who made sure everyone else had the best food. How they treated every peasant with dignity and respect. Around page 93ish.
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Mar 1, 2013 22:07
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Mar 1, 2013 22:08
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Longanimitas posted:When my students get too jingoistic regarding things like the Diaoyu Islands, Xinjiang, Tibet, or Taiwan I just remind them that China will always play second fiddle to countries that have the rule of law, and there's nothing they can do about it until their systemic corruption is fixed. Most of them suddenly become very sad because they suspect what I'm saying is true. Having been to Russia before and talked to some of the journalists there. Russia is way more hosed up. They will literally kill you if you publish something they don't approve of.
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Mar 1, 2013 22:47
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You want me to type it out when I get back to it?
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Mar 1, 2013 22:51
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Warcabbit posted:The funniest thing is I was just reading a history by a japanese scholar about WWII, and how Japan screwed its people so badly via propaganda. It looks that the author is a huge Communist sympathizer and writes from the perspective of China and the Soviet union as saintly heroes sweeping away the tyranny of Japanese imperialism.
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Mar 1, 2013 23:28
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hitension posted:Uhh no there's a Chinese term for it and Chinese people use it all the time to complain about the same thing:腐敗 Do you consider giving doctor who is going to perform minor surgery on you a red pocket 腐败？ I think there are many shades of gray between the obvious "corruption" by any culture's standard and doing everything by the book on your credit card. There are many things in between fall into the Guanxi area that the Chinese don't consider corruption but "greasing the wheel." Now stop right here if you want to argue whether particular case of giving your kindergarten teacher certain amount of red pocket is corruption because that wasn't my main point. I am not ready to argue this. I think this argument will quickly turn to poo poo just like every "tipping in American" thread. My main point is that I believe you can have a modern Chinese country with a healthy political system and functioning Guanxi culture coexist together. I think Taiwan is a perfect example. Do I think you can get working democratic system in a Chinese society? Yes I think so. Do I think any Chinese society will get rip of Guanxi, or every the boarder sense of corruption? No I don't think so. It's part of the Chinese culture. It's my opinion. I didn't say you don't understand Chinese culture or whatever. quote:That's kind of a lazy excuse. There are western academics who have devoted their lives to the study of China and Chinese concepts. If you're going to play apologist, racism/nationalism is not a good road to take. That's narrower definition of "Confucianism". By boarder definition of Confucianism, I don't see any difference between "Confucianism" and "Chinese culture". I like to use the word "Confucianism" because they are very handy to describe other east Asian countries. If you want to replace Confucianism with Chinese culture, that's fine with me. Yes, I know Confucianism and Confucius are two things.
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Mar 2, 2013 01:43
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Warcabbit posted:The funniest thing is I was just reading a history by a japanese scholar about WWII, and how Japan screwed its people so badly via propaganda. It's interesting the only "realism" novel/manga/movie from Japan I have ever read was a novel by a left wing writer. (I don't remmeber the name, I read it in 5th grade). Every other Japanese literature I read fall into the fantasy, sci-fi, or horror or historic genre.
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Mar 2, 2013 01:47
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whatever7 posted:Do you consider giving doctor who is going to perform minor surgery on you a red pocket 腐败？ Giving monetary inducements to someone in a position of power and authority in the hopes of influencing his decisions? Yes, that is literally the definition of corruption in all countries.
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Mar 2, 2013 01:55
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is tipping corruption
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Mar 2, 2013 02:00
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dongsbot 9000 posted:is tipping corruption Depends. Do you need to tip them in order to get them to do their drat job, which you've already paid for, or do you give it afterward as a reward for good work? If the former then yes; if the latter, probably not.
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Mar 2, 2013 02:05
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whatever7 posted:My main point is that I believe you can have a modern Chinese country with a healthy political system and functioning Guanxi culture coexist together. I think Taiwan is a perfect example. Do I think you can get working democratic system in a Chinese society? Yes I think so. Do I think any Chinese society will get rip of Guanxi, or every the boarder sense of corruption? No I don't think so. It's part of the Chinese culture. It's my opinion. I didn't say you don't understand Chinese culture or whatever. Whenever money buys privilege and exemption from the legal system you don't have a healthy anything. It's a system that pervaded every aspect of human culture for thousands of years and in the last few centuries has finally been shaken out of general practice in many places. I think having senior elected officials leaving office with billions in graft and bribes, a small family having to bankrupt itself for their child to go the state run 'free' school, and the rule of law not applying to the political or military officials is beyond "oh its their culture how dare you say its bad" In the southern United States owning people was part of the culture for 250 years, that doesn't mean it should've been inviolate. Culture, tradition, and 'the way things are' don't necessitate a free pass to continue a system that is objectively harmful to the vast majority. pentyne fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Mar 2, 2013 |
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Mar 2, 2013 02:13
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pentyne posted:It looks that the author is a huge Communist sympathizer and writes from the perspective of China and the Soviet union as saintly heroes sweeping away the tyranny of Japanese imperialism. He certainly is left-wing, but it's expected behavior from a revolutionary movement that needs to vanish into the peasantry. Or, you know, all get betrayed. It seems, from his writing, he's more writing apologetics, trying to explain how good people did what they did during WWII, in this book, but yes, he's clearly sympathetic to the communist movement. He does cite his sources for this, though. I can't check them, as they're all in japanese. But, assuming he is not morally bankrupt, and is writing as a historian, the parts he specifically put in quotes support the thesis for this specific time period.
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Mar 2, 2013 02:20
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whatever7 posted:My main point is that I believe you can have a modern Chinese country with a healthy political system and functioning Guanxi culture coexist together. Bollocks. Local officials have proven time and again that they will not only dip into the cookie jar as often as they can, they'll shove their penis in there too. There is no such thing as a "funtional" guanxi culture [minus the sense of "face"] because it is by its very definition dysfunctional - guanxi operates because something else doesn't operate, it is specifically outside codified practices. Guanxi isn't some intagible, mystical Oriental magic like social Chi flow, it's people in significant positions breaking the rules to make money for themselves or because they want to accrue more power. It certainly doesn't benefit the majority of people and tends to concentrate wealth and power in the hands of people who occupy the same or related networks. That and people loving hate it - unless they stand to benefit of course. Are you actually arguing that guanxi is a part of Chinese culture which people should activley seek to retain as part of their identity?
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Mar 2, 2013 02:37
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whatever7 posted:My main point is that I believe you can have a modern Chinese country with a healthy political system and functioning Guanxi culture coexist together. I think Taiwan is a perfect example. Do I think you can get working democratic system in a Chinese society? Yes I think so. Do I think any Chinese society will get rip of Guanxi, or every the boarder sense of corruption? No I don't think so. It's part of the Chinese culture. It's my opinion. I didn't say you don't understand Chinese culture or whatever. Just out of curiosity, have you lived or studied in China? Do you know anyone in the political realm over here? I'm just wondering what this belief is based on, if you have any significant experience in this type of culture first hand. I'm certainly not trying to be a dick, I'm honestly curious.
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Mar 2, 2013 02:50
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whatever7 posted:My main point is that I believe you can have a modern Chinese country with a healthy political system and functioning Guanxi culture coexist together. I think Taiwan is a perfect example. Do I think you can get working democratic system in a Chinese society? Yes I think so. Do I think any Chinese society will get rip of Guanxi, or every the boarder sense of corruption? No I don't think so. It's part of the Chinese culture. It's my opinion. I didn't say you don't understand Chinese culture or whatever. Don't pretend you understand Taiwan or Taiwanese culture given the comments that you stated before this. Gift giving and the establishment of trustworthy business relationships is fine. Bribing someone else is not. Thanks!
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Mar 2, 2013 02:51
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OwlBot 2000 posted:Depends. Do you need to tip them in order to get them to do their drat job, which you've already paid for, or do you give it afterward as a reward for good work? If the former then yes; if the latter, probably not. Tipping in the US is the payment for someone doing their job. If you don't tip in a place where the tip is the recipients only income, you are stealing their labor. I don't think it belongs in a discussion about systemic corruption at all, be it Asia or the West. truavatar fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Mar 2, 2013 |
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Mar 2, 2013 03:15
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This whole discussion about "ok" corruption reminds me of this famous American speech from the Gilded Age:George Washington Plunkitt, Honest Graft posted:EVERYBODY is talkin' these days about Tammany men growin' rich on graft, but nobody thinks of drawin' the distinction between honest graft and dishonest graft. There's all the difference in the world between the two. Yes, many of our men have grown rich in politics. I have myself. I've made a big fortune out of the game, and I'm gettin' richer every day, but I've not gone in for dishonest graft - blackmailin' gamblers, saloonkeepers, disorderly people, etc. - and neither has any of the men who have made big fortunes in politics. Honest Graft, Conclusion posted:The books are always all right. The money in the city treasury is all right. Everything is all right. All they can show is that the Tammany heads of departments looked after their friends, within the law, and gave them what opportunities they could to make honest graft. Now, let me tell you that’s never goin' to hurt Tammany with the people. Every good man looks after his friends, and any man who doesn’t isn’t likely to be popular. If I have a good thing to hand out in private life, I give it to a friend. Why shouldn’t I do the same in public life? Plunkitt was a prominent member of the Tammany Hall political machine, which controlled much of New York State's politics until civil service reform was enacted. The systemic corruption present in China today isn't some "Chinese characteristic" that's a time-honored tradition. It's just heavily rationalized systemic corruption like in any other country. Spiderfist Island fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Mar 2, 2013 |
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Mar 2, 2013 03:31
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Edit: removed per Xanadu's instructions.
OwlBot 2000 fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Mar 2, 2013 |
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Mar 2, 2013 04:33
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dongsbot 9000 posted:is tipping corruption Oh we are so not having this conversation in here.
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Mar 2, 2013 04:35
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pentyne posted:It looks that the author is a huge Communist sympathizer and writes from the perspective of China and the Soviet union as saintly heroes sweeping away the tyranny of Japanese imperialism. To be fair, the Japanese were tyrants and imperia- oh, wrong point. Whoops!
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Mar 2, 2013 04:42
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I think it's worth taking account that some elements of the guanxi culture that's generally accepted really only differs in scope rather than qualitatively from the kind of excesses that get people shot. The example of Hong Kong is a telling one, the cleaning up of the system there wasn't some imposition by the British. It was popularly supported because people don't accept the idea that shop keepers need to pay the police large envelopes full of money just to avoid getting broken into every other week.
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Mar 2, 2013 04:56
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Spiderfist Island posted:
No, you simply don't understand the ways of the inscrutable orient. Now, let me tell you about how Chinese people are incompatible with the practice of democracy thanks to their suzhi...
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Mar 2, 2013 05:09
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whatever7 posted:My main point is that I believe you can have a modern Chinese country with a healthy political system and functioning Guanxi culture coexist together. I think Taiwan is a perfect example. Do I think you can get working democratic system in a Chinese society? Yes I think so. Do I think any Chinese society will get rip of Guanxi, or every the boarder sense of corruption? No I don't think so. It's part of the Chinese culture. It's my opinion. I didn't say you don't understand Chinese culture or whatever. If you want a political science perspective from a discipline that studies power structures in detail, the organizational problem with guanxi is that it is a parallel power structure. A parallel power structure is an organizational system that exists together with the official organizational system. You're correct that parallel power structures will always exist. You're wrong that it's not a problem. Parallel power structures are always corrosive to the official power structure, no matter where they are or what form they take. And China's guanxi culture is currently so powerful that it has and is deeply corroding all the official ways to get things done in China. Let's take your example with giving the doctor a red envelope. It seems sort of harmless right? He's doing you a service and everyone knows that doctors' salaries in China are insanely bad. So why not pay him? Well, okay, but let's look at what that does to the hospital now. First of all, the doctors are wasting an enormous amount of time extracting bribes (or if you like just call it payments) from patients. Doctors shouldn't be doing this! That's what the untrained people at the front desk should be doing. So it's a huge loss in efficiency right there. Then, let's look at the patients' problems. There is no price information! One doctor might charge you a certain amount, another doctor a different amount, and you can't plan for it at all. Even worse, a doctor might send you to his friend in the X-ray room upstairs even if you don't need it, to help out his friend so he can get guanxi. And you have to pay a bribe for nothing! But the patient does not know this of course. Meanwhile, everyone in the hospital hates this system. The doctors hate it, the patients hate it, the administrators hate it, everyone hates it. But do the hospital staff agitate for change? Not really, because it "works." Actually, we all know the hospital system is broken, but guanxi or corruption is making it even worse while at the same time slowing change. The official system gets worse while everyone is unhappy. This is the corrosive power of a parallel power structure. Now look at the government. Does anyone think it works right? Certainly not the people in power. So why aren't they changing anything? Because they're sitting in a parallel power structure that works okay for them. The highest level of the government is the perfect example for this. Nothing at the highest level of the Chinese government operates in even remotely the same way that the law says it does. Their positions are titles only. Their real positions are in a nameless, parallel government structure. And the worst thing is, it works. Why is that bad? Because it works badly, and every day it works it damages the nominal power structure even more, and it's invisible so nobody can really figure out how it works much less how to fix it. And while we try to figure out what it even is, it is running the country and we all know it's doing so badly and causing untold damage. That is why guanxi is bad. Sure, every country operates with a parallel power structure to some extent. This will be true as long as people in government have friends and listen to their friends' opinions. But they are corrosive to government under the rule of law, and when they become powerful they are extremely corrosive, to the point that, as you see in China, rule of law breaks down. Apologists for these situations very often say that because the official system is broken, it is good that people can get things done with the unofficial system, but when people go through the unofficial system it damages the official system even more. Oh, also, Chinese people really need to stop believing the myth of monolithic Chinese culture. It's you, Chinese culture is how you live your life and you can change it. It's not easy but it can be done. You did it before. Why now the appeals to "it's Chinese culture, it will always be this way?" I think the real reason I hear Chinese say that is because they are giving up on their country and want an excuse. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 06:39 on Mar 2, 2013 |
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Mar 2, 2013 06:27
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What are the capabilities of the official system versus the unofficial system? What DOESN'T get done when the official system breaks, for which the unofficial system cannot compensate?
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Mar 2, 2013 06:44
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poo poo dude, don't make me write a term paper. I'm done with college!
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Mar 2, 2013 06:48
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I've got a guess off the top of my head: environmental protection
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Mar 2, 2013 06:49
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goldboilermark posted:Just out of curiosity, have you lived or studied in China? Do you know anyone in the political realm over here?
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Mar 2, 2013 07:05
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whatever7 posted:It's interesting the only "realism" novel/manga/movie from Japan I have ever read was a novel by a left wing writer. (I don't remmeber the name, I read it in 5th grade). Every other Japanese literature I read fall into the fantasy, sci-fi, or horror or historic genre. Was it Kani Kousen/The Factory Ship, or The Absentee Landlord? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanik%C5%8Dsen VideoTapir fucked around with this message at 07:22 on Mar 2, 2013 |
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Mar 2, 2013 07:15
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french lies posted:Not only that, whatever7 is the only honest-to-god Chinese person posting actively in this thread, not counting ABCs and the like (AFAIK). Just FYI there's others. Bad grammar and word choice isn't the only sign of a Chinese person. Hong Kong and Singapore are excellent examples of how Chinese people can get by and govern just fine without horrible parallel government systems and corruption. HK's develop collusion might be iffy, but it's legal and open and operates within the system. I don't know enough about Taiwan to speak much about it either, but it sure doesn't seem that corrupt, at least since democratization.
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Mar 2, 2013 09:32
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Bloodnose posted:Just FYI there's others. Bad grammar and word choice isn't the only sign of a Chinese person. Taiwan is somewhat corrupt, but not in the same way that China is. The critical example was the president of the country a while back being sentenced to life in prison due to his corruption. Word has it that things have been very slowly getting better since then. Unsurprisingly, a lot of Taiwanese are unhappy with China particularly because it indirectly introduces some of the corruption elements into Taiwan. ntan1 fucked around with this message at 10:28 on Mar 2, 2013 |
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Mar 2, 2013 10:19
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Here's an annoying example of corruption in operation: my university has required repeated prompting on my part to get them to pay tax on my earnings. Now, is someone skimming the tax off? No. Is someone doing this to be nice to me? No. Is this happening because the financial reporting system in China is so bent and useless that it is too much effort (and patently unnecessary) to work out how to pay tax on the earnings of a foreigner? Yes. As Argle pointed out, corruption rots away existing structures until things either need a total overhaul or just collapse. Now, if anything could be labelled a "convenient injustice" then this would be it (it has literally taken me months to convince someone in payroll that I want to pay tax) but it shows just how frail administrative systems in developing areas (Henan) can be and how damaging those "parallel structures" really are. At best they lead to administrators "going native" and at worst they lead to outright pseudo-State sponsored gangsterism. Just out of interest, if there are any of the Henan goons reading this thread, did your SAFEA dinner go ahead this year? Mine didn't and call me paranoid but it did get cancelled right around the time that Xi started that new drive to curb wasteful spending on banquets. Hmmm. Not that the food at those banquets is any good anyways, give me a bowl of huimian from the local hole any day of the week over the luminous plastic bollocks you get served at functions. Obviously I am assuming that my local dinner was cancelled so that the boss could have another bottle of Moutai rather than for genuine, fiscally responsible reasons. Maybe I am just being cynical. GuestBob fucked around with this message at 11:12 on Mar 2, 2013 |
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Mar 2, 2013 10:55
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GuestBob posted:Here's an annoying example of corruption in operation: my university has required repeated prompting on my part to get them to pay tax on my earnings. Taxes here are stupidly easy to do, foreigner or not. The only difference is 3500 vs. 4800 deductible. If they're not paying it's because they don't want to. If social insurance has been implemented, then they are not paying because it adds a rather large chunk of expenses that they don't want to pay.
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Mar 2, 2013 14:03
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Pro-PRC Laowai posted:Taxes here are stupidly easy to do, foreigner or not. The only difference is 3500 vs. 4800 deductible. If they're not paying it's because they don't want to. If social insurance has been implemented, then they are not paying because it adds a rather large chunk of expenses that they don't want to pay. Or perhaps I am not even on the payroll system. Perhaps the prospect of paying a foreigner who doesn't have a Chinese ID number is so utterly mind boggling that I am paid from a departmental budget disbursement every month rather from general payroll. All it takes is "your name is what?" or "you don't have an ID number?" and the default position is "pass it to the boss" who has no loving idea what is what because he's only there because he sucked somebody's balls. It's much easier to do something 'slightly' illegal than do the correct thing and here we are back proving Argle's point. You have to take a long view when it comes to these things; I have been pestering two people with increasing frequency over the past six months and they are going to crack fairly soon and sort it out properly. Softly, softly though because, you know, face and such. Jesus is it alot of work though - I can see why the public sector in China is so inefficient. That said, this is the only thing I have problems with where I work - otherwise, things are pretty boss because it isn't hard to look like you're running when everyone else is standing still. And of course social insurance hasn't happened in Henan. Has that actually happened anywhere? For real? Other thread chat perhaps. GuestBob fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Mar 2, 2013 |
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Mar 2, 2013 14:38
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Warcabbit posted:The funniest thing is I was just reading a history by a japanese scholar about WWII, and how Japan screwed its people so badly via propaganda. I'm pretty sure this is in the same vein as Japan's Jewish policy. Japanese officials read the Elder Protocols of Zion, believed it was true and unlike most people who believed it wanted to befriend the Jews. They believed that if they could become allies of the Jews, they could get in on the whole controlling all of the world's finance game. It's probably just another unfounded policy based on rumor and little factual information. The author is also a Japanese history scholar, so his knowledge of WWII China is probably limited. He probably just believed what he read regardless of how true it was. The Chinese Communists were far from democratic, even in their earliest years in the Jiangxi Soviet. Mao cleaned house regularly in Yan'an by killing rivals under the banner of Nationalist spy purges. Mao was well known for keeping grudges and for crushing anyone who challenged him. The only true part of their reputation was that the PLA generally treated people well and didn't loot the entire area like the warlord or Nationalist troops did. That went a long way when the GMD is your main defender and the Japanese were your main enemy. You have to realize as well that once the CCP had taken over, they no longer needed to politically "court people". After that, Mao's PRC was no better than Stalinist USSR.
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Mar 2, 2013 14:41
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Does anyone have thoughts on the NYTimes reporting on anything even vaguely Asian related? I feel like they tend way too close to the "inscrutable Oriental" far too often. Hell, their top-emailed piece today was something written by David Brooks about some Chinese academic living in the United States writing on the differences between American and Chinese students. The whole time it felt like a "Americans study like this and Chinese students study like this" sketch piece. I've been teaching in a Chinese middle school for two years now and it all just smacks of bullshit to me. Honestly, all students are 99% the same in my experience, with the biggest difference being class-related. Poverty and wealth are similar across all cultures more or less. I bet any student in Beijing would have more in common with some private school brat in Bethesda than a Chinese student in the middle of Hunan or Sichuan.
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Mar 2, 2013 15:11
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ntan1 posted:Taiwan is somewhat corrupt, but not in the same way that China is. The critical example was the president of the country a while back being sentenced to life in prison due to his corruption. Word has it that things have been very slowly getting better since then. Modus Operandi fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Mar 2, 2013 |
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Mar 2, 2013 15:58
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